Ring of the Lings, Part 3- Quinn's turn
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 7 Registered: Aug-05 | Where to start......hmmm. I started off with Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth since Eddie was liking male voices on the Lings. Quite nice. The bass is very impressive on the Lings. On the 2nd song the male choral kicks in and is very nice and rich. I switched to Fairfield Four's Standing in the Danger Zone. Track 6 has a bass voice that is joined by the other four members in harmony. I've heard some speakers where all four voices are separate in this harmonization and consider this track a though test. With the Lings you could tell there were different voices harmonizing but each voice wasn't quite distinct. The other thing I noticed was it sounded like half was coming out of one speaker the the other half the other speaker not a nice united soundstage. Loved the richness of the male voices thru the Lings. With the Ascend's you can tell there are multiple voices coming from dead center. I'd give the Ling's an edge on voice separation in the harmonizing. Switched to Jane Monheit- Taking a Chance on Love- as I knew it has lots of stand-up bass and the duet with Michael Buble. Nice full bass. Good rich tone to Buble's voice. Decay of notes seemed fairly immediate. No soundstage. Both Monheit and Buble we coming out the the right speaker not center stage like with the Ascends. The speakers were very localized/locateable and the music was easy to discern which speaker was playing it. No illusion of stage left, right, and center. On to Norah Jones- Come Away with Me- with The Lings. What happened? Why does it sound like I'm sitting in the last row of the balcony? Where are the brushes on the drums, the breathes being taken, and some of the fingers sliding on strings? Why is there no decay to the notes? So, I need to tweak positioning and see if that is where my imaging problems lie. Some recordings where very nice others not so good. I'm intrigued by the variations in what I'm getting and look foward to listening more. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1117 Registered: Feb-04 | Keep at at Man ! I wonder why you gave an edge to the Ling's on Fairfield Four if they didn't image at all? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4863 Registered: May-04 | " I've heard some speakers where all four voices are separate in this harmonization and consider this track a though test. With the Lings you could tell there were different voices harmonizing but each voice wasn't quite distinct. The other thing I noticed was it sounded like half was coming out of one speaker the the other half the other speaker not a nice united soundstage. Loved the richness of the male voices thru the Lings. With the Ascend's you can tell there are multiple voices coming from dead center. I'd give the Ling's an edge on voice separation in the harmonizing." This doesn't seem to make sense. If there was better separation of the individual voices with other speakers and placement problems of the performers with the Lings, why would you give the edge to the Lings? |
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 8 Registered: Aug-05 | I guess I give them an edge because there is a bit more separation of the voices with the Lings. I do not give them an edge in imaging. I think it may also be the very warm timbre the Lings bring to male voices that I'm finding appealing in their sound. Give me some more time tomorrow when I can be a bit more relaxed in listening. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 17 Registered: May-04 | what? you are not going to listen through the night? |
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Anonymous | Boo! Horrible review! Send them to Jan!!!! |
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New member Username: QuinnPost Number: 10 Registered: Aug-05 | I would if I didn't have the kids. Eddie's been in our house. It is pretty much all open to everything. I knocked off at 8 to get the kids down. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 11 Registered: Aug-05 | Hey anonymous give me time tomorrow to play with positioning. It could all well be a matter of set-up. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 553 Registered: Jun-05 | Dont listen to Anon he is just messing with you. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 18 Registered: May-04 | Anonymous is probably Jan.  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4876 Registered: May-04 | Nope! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4882 Registered: May-04 | I would like to make it clear, with the various posts on the Ling threads, that I am not making the posts. For the record, I can't even spell "anonymous" .... well, whadda ya know? Anyhows, I am not anon and he is not I! |
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Anonymous | I couldn't have said it any better. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 23 Registered: May-04 | Then is anon here to cause trouble? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 559 Registered: Jun-05 | All the time,thats his Motto. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1448 Registered: Mar-05 | Actually I think that "Anonymous" is more than one person. One of the most vexing oddities about the Ecoustics forum software is that not only does it NOT require registration (the only audio forum I know of which does not) but it allows ANYBODY whether registered or not, to post as "Anonymous" simply by clicking on the "Post as Anonymous" checkbox. Why in God's name they designed the software with these gaping loopholes we'll never know... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1426 Registered: Feb-05 | There are a number of audio forums that allow unregistered guests to post. Others usually require you to have a username and they monitor the conversations a little more closely. Unfortunantely I have not found one as spontaneous as this one, and god knows I've been looking. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1140 Registered: Feb-04 | Consideing the abuse we witnessed earlier, it's surprising that it's still like that. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4904 Registered: May-04 | Post your comments here: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/suggestions/152204.html |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1144 Registered: Feb-04 | Just did. Thanks for the reminder about that thread... |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 13 Registered: Aug-05 | I've had the kids solo for 13 hours today so no critical listening today. A little toe-in did a lot for my imaging issues. Hope to get to play tomorrow. BTW- All my listening has been on my 2-channel rig which is an Audio Refinement Complete Alpha integrated and and Audio Refine CDP. The original Audio Refinement Complete is a Stereophile recommended component, class B. I have the improved Alpha version. |
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Anonymous | Thank you Quinn. I'm listening. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 14 Registered: Aug-05 | My findings are pretty much the same as Eddie's. Great on some stuff and lacking on others. I'll try to write more tomorrow. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4923 Registered: May-04 | T8 - Have you voiced this speaker for anything particular? What do you use as an amp and source music when you listen to your designs to tweak the final few degrees? Frank Sinatra or Metallica? Do you have any reaction so far to what the response has been? Or is that an unfair question? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4932 Registered: May-04 | "The Lings semi-BBC curve", eh? Oye! I hope you picked the part of the semi I like! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1146 Registered: Feb-04 | More specifically, from 200Hz to 20kHz the CBM-170s climb about 10db Huh? The specs on the Ascend Acoustics say: Typical In-Room Frequency Response 63Hz-20kHz +/-3dB Frequency Response (Anechoic) 69Hz-20kHz +/-3dB So at most wouldn't that imply a 6 dB rise? In fact, the graphs here are remarkably flat: http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170meas.html Are you saying they are wrong? Or did I misunderstand you? |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 26 Registered: May-04 | Don't go by the graph on the Ascend site...go by a non-biased site like Soundstage: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend%5Fcbm170/ Tim...can you tell us how you are measuring? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1149 Registered: Feb-04 | Those are still very flat. The impedence does go very low (around 5 ohms). This tells me that the Ascend should sound much better on a receiver with high-current amps (NAD, h/k). |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 27 Registered: May-04 | Tim...are you measuring in-room? |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 15 Registered: Aug-05 | I sent them on to Jan today. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 28 Registered: May-04 | Did you send your 170's as well? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 377 Registered: May-05 | Quinn, I'm waiting??? That's it? The old kid excuse, huh? OK, Jan, the pressures on for something spectacular in the review and comparison department. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4951 Registered: May-04 | Pressure?! THERE'S NO STINKIN' PRESSURE!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 16 Registered: Aug-05 | "Quinn, I'm waiting??? That's it? The old kid excuse, huh?" I have been busy. At this point I'm staying away from this. I concur with Eddie's finding. I did PM Tim my complete thoughts. I'd be happy to loan my 170s to Jan if he wants to hear them. Maybe at this point it would be better if Ascend sent him a pair. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 392 Registered: May-05 | Tim and David - There's a time and place for everything, and this isn't either of the two for this arguement. Thanks Tim for not going back at David and being respectful in doing so. David - While I can't speak for everyone, I didn't think Tim was bashing your speakers at all. In fact, he always seemed to mention somewhere that they were good speakers, just different. I understand your need to correct any technical matters that may be off, but there is a way to do it. Please be respectful. I don't think anyone here wants to hear two speaker manufacturers argue over which speaker is better. This is a place for consumers to do that. I understand Tim is a manufacturer, but he has been very helpful, and almost always has sat back quietly, and answered any questions people have had. If you would like to do the same, I'm sure everyone here would be very happy to have you around and would value your input. Tim reported what he measured. When asked how he got those measurements, he answered every one of them. His measurements may have been off, and were pointed out by several members here. "Why don't you send me a pair to measure? ;) For some reason, I doubt that would happen." Please refrain from stuff like this. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1161 Registered: Feb-04 | Well said Stu... I'll only say that, as a scientist, I would doubt my own measurements if they differed from everyone elses by 10 dB. Make sure your equipment is up to the task Tim. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 605 Registered: Jun-05 | Tim dont worry about it I think he missinterpatated your statements regarding the Ascends. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 29 Registered: May-04 | While I think it is clear that some of Tim's comments were unclear or misinterpreted, it is kind of hard to misinterpret or mis-state the rising response reference. Hopefully things are cleared up now without any lingering effects. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1171 Registered: Feb-04 | Right. David, while being rude, has a point. If Tim measured the Ascend to rise by 10 dB and measured his flat using the same measurement method, then if he's wrong about the Ascend that implies his speakers fall 10 dB! |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 17 Registered: Aug-05 | Since Ascend Acoustics records the response graph for every speaker before it goes out the door, maybe David should post the response graph for my pair too. That way everyone can see the graph for the pair Eddie and I both listened to. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 395 Registered: May-05 | The more and more I think about David Farbikant's post, the more I get turned off to his products. The guy comes on here and starts a pissing contest? I was honestly considering buying a pair of Ascends for my office. Now that I think about it, it would have been a great place for them - a college athletic training room (rehab, not weight room). Most of the students here are music and arts majors. They appreciate good music and sound quality, and don't have tons of money to throw at new speakers. Many have asked me questions about the PSB's I'm currently using, and a few have bought some themselves. I'm glad I didn't buy the Ascends. With a person like that running the show, I'm all set. I know this won't have any significant impact on his product, but I feel like I've done my part. It may be a good product, but I guess I'll never know or care to find out first hand now. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 379 Registered: May-05 | Well, I'm back home so I'll weigh in. First off, David you are always welcome to weigh in and express an opinion. We've had the benefit of comments from Tim regarding his speakers, the gentlemen at GMA regarding his speakers and one or more of their fans'. So, I feel that it's important that manufacturers take the time to follow what's going on with consumers and how their speakers are performing. If for no other reason than to set the record straight and do what Tim is doing, i.e., learn and improve their product. (BTW, I think I started this fun with the my original review after purchasing the 170s and I've enjoyed my communications and experience with Tim and the wonderful support and suggestions I received from you and James at Ascend.) OK, that said, here's what Tim stated: "So, what we have here are two different speakers. That's an obvious statement but the best summation. I acquired a pair of Ascend CBM-170s myself to compare with. There is no doubt the Ascends are a nice speaker for the price." I think that statement is pretty self-explanatory and fair to all parties AND TRUE. It's consistent with what Quinn found and stated and ditto for Edster and me. The next statement is where the dispute arises and it's merely a technical (by which I mean measurement) dispute and it can be resolved objectively using adequate and SWI (standard within the industry) equipment and techniques. Tim stated: "What I found is that the CBM-170 has a rising reponse curve compared with the Lings semi-BBC curve. More specifically, from 200Hz to 20kHz the CBM-170s climb about 10db. From 200Hz to 3kHz they climb about 3db which is barely noticable. The Lings on the other hand have no overall gain from 200Hz to 20kHz but they are down 3db at 2kHz." OK, I don't know if Tim's right or Ascend is right but Peter and Curtis both pointed to Ascends and others' measurements that dispute Tim's measurements. So, maybe Tim's are wrong. I don't see anywhere that Tim said "hey, I have the absolute best equipment and my measurements are 'spot on'". (That's perfect for you who speak English as a first language.) On the flip side, we're are generally a skeptical lot and we asked Tim for some explanation of his measurement method and he provided it. Obviously, he wasn't trying to hide anything or mislead anyone. So, I would be inclined to cut Tim some slack, especially given his helpful posts in the past and his willingness to share knowledge and information, outside of "trying to sell speakers." Tim's next statement appeared to be and was expressed as "his opinion" or, at least, that's how I read it. "The result is that to me, the Ascends are a bit bright and forward, the Lings are warm and laid back. Bright and forward is appealing for short periods of time, and some people may prefer that quality for the life of their system. Warm and laid back is less exciting initially, but over the long haul can be a very welcoming quality." Well, my review did not say the Ascends were "bright" or "forward", I believe I said clean and neutral. Ed's could have been read somewhat that way but he clarified his statement. So, anyone reading the multiple threads could make up their own mind and accept or reject Tim's opinion. (BTW, Quinn I was just joshing you and no ill will was intended in any way, I've had young children and know where you're at and why you're busy. ENJOY it, they get older too soon and talk back too frequently. LOL) The rest of Tim's response was dealing with his equipment and how he feels the equipment works, or doesn't work, with the Lings. Pretty non threatening from what I could tell. David, the first part of your response seemed fair. It took Tim's point and deconstructed them point by point. I thought the: "Why don't you send me a pair to measure? ;) For some reason, I doubt that would happen" was a bit of a cheap shot AND, more importantly, I think it assumes too much. Tim has been very willing to share his speakers and he has professed a desire to improve them through the review/audition/feedback process. I suspect he would send you a pair to test, so long as you share your results with him. BUT, I'm just saying you know what happens when you assume, don't you? Old law professor, gave it to us this way, it makes an a@@/u/me. Bad Dave, bad Dave. (I'm talking about myself, David.) The remainder of David's post approaches "rant" status, although it contains a very helpful graph regarding the speaker pair that Ascend sent Tim. David, your "customers" have been incredibly respectful of Tim and Tim, likewise. It was because of Tim's respectfulness, his willingness to "loan out" his speakers for the original audition and his desire to "learn more about his speakers" that this whole thing got started. (BTW, Tim originally offered to pay shipping both ways and I refused because he was being such a gentleman.) Now, all of the above said, I love my Ascends. I like the sound they produce and I don't believe they're "forward" or "bright", although one could easily call them "bright" when comparing them directly to the Lings in a side by side. From my experience, there's no BAD PUBLICITY and, so far, Tim has gotten some great publicity and reviews for his Ling speakers and Ascend should be thanking it's lucky stars. After all, here are a number of threads where people have reviewed several, different speakers, components and music and deemed these two speakers, with the Ascends getting a nod in each case, as being better, or at least equal, to speakers costing 2-3 times as much. Why the heck would anyone get worked up about that. So, I suggest that Tim might want to delete his post in part and David you might consider asking the forum administrator to do the same with the latter portion of your post, and then, everybody just revel in the fact you've made some pretty high quality speakers at an incredible price point. Hey, IT'S FREE, GREAT PUBLICITY for heaven sakes. OK, I'm done. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 380 Registered: May-05 | P.S. Quinn, I tried to PM but you don't accept them so just take a big "I'm sorry" if you felt that I was being rude, really not intended. Thanks, Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 910 Registered: Mar-05 | I second that Stu, I bet David has not read any of Tim's other posts where he has helped most everyone without bashing, name calling or being caprice about who he is and what he does. I will never buy an Ascend product now that I have heard the voice behind it, no matter how good it sounds. If he did make a mistake fine, but don't act pompous when refering to "...sending me a pair, but I doubt it". Tim would be the first to say he might have made a mistake if you had presented a cordial disagreement. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1175 Registered: Feb-04 | Stu, Other than David misunderstanding the bit about the receiver's lack-luster performance, his post isn't really too bad. It is a bit insulting to Tim, but I guess he felt attacked. Read it again without emotion and perhaps you'll see what I mean. I was very surprised to read Tim's post about the 10 dB rise on the Ascend (But now all his posts are gone). And I was even more surprised that noone took issue with that finding. If it's wrong... |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 18 Registered: Aug-05 | Stu- I wouldn't get too mad at either guy here. Both are defending their work and their products. If Tim's measurements are 10dB hot shouldn't David be able to assert that those measurements are incorrect? As it has been pointed out of all the measurements of the 170's only Tim's is that different. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 30 Registered: May-04 | I do not know Tim other than these Ascend/Ling threads...so I do not know his history here. How do you come out and say "check your equipment"? I was quite surprised when I read his measurements and what he said it implies. I realize he wasn't disputing the measurements at Soundstage/NRC, or Ascend's, but posting and commenting on it certainly does have its implications. Even after stating he knew of the other measurements, he did not question his own. But what I thought really crossed the line was this statement: "For the AV receiver the brightness of the Ascends helps it's lack-luster performance". I realize now that it wasn't clear that Tim meant his receiver, and I interpreted as a shot at the speakers. Now he may not have meant any negativity to come from his comments, but I think they were there for people to interpret. It is clear, that on this open forum, David felt his product and reputation were attacked. That is the characteristics of forums....you have to let things play out, with a lot of explanation, before you really understand what is going on. IMO...a misunderstanding where emotion got involved. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 19 Registered: Aug-05 | Why should it be the duty of David to read all TIm's posts to respond to Tim calling his speakers bright and unlistenable over time? I've been listening the Ascends for over three years do you know how pissed off I was to have Tim make these accusations toward my hearing and tastes? I didn't post anything yesterday because I didn't want to post while mad. But if it had been my work and design I sure would have answered back. Tim was not exactly polite to the 170s after the 3rd person in a row comparing the 170 and Lings didn't give the Lings a big thumbs up. So, since Tim has been a regular here he his held to a different standard than a speaker designer trying to state his case that his product has been maligned? If someone wants to explain what I'm doing wrong with the PM function please do. As far I can tell I'm set to receive PMs. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 20 Registered: Aug-05 | I guess I left out that Tim's post came after I PMed him my critism and I felt like his post was a shot at me and the 170. But, I was the third person in a row to think the 170s are better outside of bass extension. Hopefully that makes my previous- not be too hard on either designer defending thier product comment a little clearer. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 396 Registered: May-05 | Peter - I interpreted the whole second part (after the curves) as an attack on Tim. I thought it was very condescending (sorry if it's spelled wrong). He could have and should have conducted himself in a more professional manner. But that's just how I read it. Quinn - I also agree that David has a right to defend his product. I mentioned that in my first post. I also said there is a right way to do it. Tim's measurements may or may not be off. If there are a couple of truly independant testers that have concurred with David's findings and not Tim's, so be it. It doesn't matter to me any more. I was interested in the Ascends until a little while ago. Now I have absolutely no use for them. There was a better way for David to make his point. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 447 Registered: Dec-03 | I regret my previous comments and will refrain from such comments in the future. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 400 Registered: May-05 | I haven't lost any respect for you Tim. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 384 Registered: May-05 | OK, Stu, that's not a classy way to deal with this either. I have no idea if David read my post or if he knows how to go about "deleting it", I believe you have to ask the forum administrator to do so. Tim stated that he would do so and he, obviously, did so. Anyway, I think we've kinda beat this one to death and, hopefully, David understands that his comments and opinions are welcome but that the expression of them should be carefully considered. Tim, you are a gentleman and a scholar, always, and I do not believe that any "intentional" misstatements were made or intended. So, let's move on to Ring of the Lings 4 and Jan's review. Jan, what do you mean, NO PRESSURE? There's HUGE PRESSURE, I'm sending a camera crew down to monitor your review, the audition, the system set-up and component selection, the speaker placement, your musical choice, your make-up, your hair (including nose hair - I know about you wild-haired Texans), and anything else I can think of in the next couple of days. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 385 Registered: May-05 | Quinn, Hey, I tried the PM again, just as a test, and still says you're not receiving PMs. Would someone else try Quinn and confirm or deny. Maybe I'm just technologically challenged? LOL |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 448 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey everybody. I want to let you know that everything's cool between me and David Fabrikant. He thumped me pretty hard but I appreciate the lesson learned. Shall we move on? I value all the feedback I've gotten (David F's also) and look forward to more. |
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Unregistered guest | Tim I am SUA ( standing up applauding ) Dakulis Once again....well done!! Quinn When I tried the PM feature it told me that "this user does not except personal messages". Now ...what is the difference/reason for registering as opposed to being an unregistered guest? I'm not much of a joiner but I do take responsibility for what I say. There has been some unpleasentness on several threads and the subject of reg. vs. non-reg. has come up. ??? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4970 Registered: May-04 | Margie - A few months back I was still an unregistered guest who found my name on (unflattering) posts I never made. Since I'd been on the forum for several months (and had actually registered but had problems with the forum recognizing my username) I had little to do that would prove I was not making the comments attibuted to my name. The situation was eventually resolved and the forgeries were removed by the Administrator. This happened only after I got my username problem cleared up and began posting as a registered guest. At this point I can only act on faith that no one can post under my name except me and anyone who tries will be banned from the forum. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1463 Registered: Feb-05 | Honestly I wish all manufacturers would refrain from posting here. If I'm not mistaken Ascend has it's own discussion forum. I believe anyone here who wants to discuss the technical details of Ascend speakers with the manufacturer should go the manufacturers web site. I'm not picking on Ascend but I too was disgusted by the tone taken by David F both on his earlier post and on the one above. "So I ask you, which course of action is better for Tim? Some firm yet constructive criticism and a slap on the wrist (it is impossible not to sound condescending in any of this) or the alternative? I think Tim is MUCH better off now, a valuable lesson learned..." People flame and put down every other brand of speaker available here and I have not heard any other manufacturer take that tone....ever. Ascend did nothing to endear me to their products. Yet another lesson in the sad world of online audio. I had considered their speakers for my second system. Now I have no use for them. David F you were winning the auditions you should be ashamed of yourself. Resorting to this public shaming of Tim who had become our friend is very disappointing. If you felt you needed to clarify your position with Tim you could have emailed or pm'd him. I'm sorry, my rant is over now. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 31 Registered: May-04 | What if David F was your friend and Tim wasn't? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1465 Registered: Feb-05 | Hi Curtis. I don't go to either of their house for dinner. I was using "friend" very loosely. The principle still stands. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 164 Registered: Jul-05 | Art: Publicizing gross misinformation of a competitors product isn't any better. Its unethical, and potentially illegal. As a (wanna-be) businessman, I have to stand by David on this one. |
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Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 123 Registered: Dec-04 | So I take ot that Alegria makes very nice stereo speakers for those of keen listening. I also take it that Ascend makes large surround system speakers(with stands) and has an affiation with subwoofer manufacturers. Not a direct conflict here, seems to me, except scend wants to prove to everyone that they can do everything well. I tried that and got my market clock cleaned by someone doing one thing well. Better or not, that is all they did, and advertised as such. Ouch. Market prowess, and lesson learned. |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 20 Registered: Jul-05 | From Up Here in the Peanut Gallery: As a newbie to this forum and to HiFi, and as a music listener starting the process of building my first system (and loooow budget to boot) I'm learning a HUGE amount here by observing you folks observe yourselves, and each other, going through the paces of auditioning a pair of speakers. Many thanks to Tim and the reviewers for the generosity of time, energy, and $$ put into the endeavor, and to their critics for keeping them honest and demanding discerning answers. Bravo! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1488 Registered: Mar-05 | Geez Louise...I'm away from my computer all day, and all hell breaks loose on this forum! LOL It appears to me that 3 things which all too often happen on Internet forums have happened here: 1. Communication breakdown. It looks like Tim didn't construct once crucial sentence very well, resulting in many people thinking he was calling the Ascends "lackluster" instead of the AVR. It looks like some people may have interpreted Tim's (hotly contested) measurements of the Ascends as being a deliberate and vindictive misrepresentation, rather than just being an honest mistake due to less-than-ideal measuring equipment and conditions. Since none of us are mind-readers, I believe that Tim deserves the innocent-until-proven-guilty benefit of the doubt. 2. Friendship trumps objectivity. I have always enjoyed Tim Forman's postings on this forum (just like David Fabrikant's postings on other forums) I find him to be not only very knowledgeable but someone who's always displayed the utmost courtesy, patience and tact towards everyone on this forum...definitely a class act in my book. However I have to concur with David that Tim is nonetheless also a "manufacturer"---so those of you like Art who resent David's joining this thread merely because he's a manufacturer are indeed guilty of an egregious double standard. 3. Taking things too seriously, clinging to our attachments. What we're doing here is a lot of fun and all that but hey in the big picture it's just stuff, just so many castles in the sand...let's please try to keep things in perspective. Quinn---I love my Ascends too (well actually yours a little more than mine LOL), but if Tim or anybody else wants to call them "bright" or "forward" or even "lackluster" or any other number of unflattering descriptions, I'd just say "I disagree but hey it's your loss, buddy." I think there should be a caption permanently affixed at the top of EVERY Internet forum page that reads, "Opinions are like @ssholes...everybody's got one." David Fabrikant---very few people who've heard your speakers would dispute that they are an unbelievable product especially given their pricepoint. The continued growth of your company and near-universal accolades it receives powerfully testify to that fact. So I have a very hard time imagining that a few negative comments/claims on some little meaningless thread on some little meaningless Internet forum, especially coming from a very new, very obscure and very tiny (aspiring) competitor, is really going to affect your business in any half-significant way. Why you would even give this more than a passing thought puzzles me, in fact. I understand that you've probably invested ungodly amounts of time, energy and talent into your speakers (it shows!) and have every right to be fiercely proud of them; still I feel that your initial response was a bit disproportionate, particularly in tone. I found this especially surprising because up until now I have found all of your postings on other audio forums (avsforum.com and hometheaterforum.com) to be impeccably professional, even-keeled and courteous. This seemed very out of character for you. Bose has a history of threatening and/or taking legal action against its critics. So does the Church of Scientology. I know that Ascend is nothing like either of those organizations, so I have to say that I am a bit disappointed myself that you would even contemplate going down that path, especially given the who what and where of this situation. Stu, Art, Joseph --- if you are dead set on never going near the Ascend speakers just because of what David F. has posted here, that is your prerogative as consumers and, I would add, your loss. (Hell if Beelzebub himself designed speakers that good at those prices I'd order them anyways, LOL.) Of course I don't see Ascend exactly filing Chapter 11 due to the three of you buying elsewhere, either. Tim --- I don't think it was really necessary for you to ask the admin to delete your postings on this thread. You were very quick to correct yourself and apologize for any misunderstandings, I don't see what more else anyone could ask from you. You've never pretended to be anything that you are not---just another guy like us who's very much in love with audio but lucky (or crazy? LOL) enough to try to break into the business. I applaud you for pursuing your dream and look forward to seeing Alegria Audio grow and flourish! PS. After I take care of my subwoofer and possibly CDP needs (if my wife hasn't murdered/divorced me) I may well order a pair of your Lings for that special 30% of my music needs that they do unlike any other speaker I've ever heard! |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 33 Registered: May-04 | geez Ed...I think some of us now feel left out. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1491 Registered: Mar-05 | oops sorry about that Curtis. I'll be sure to put you in the next volume, for sure! ; ) |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 609 Registered: Jun-05 | Well I think he is a real jerk{yeah you David whatever your name is,I dont care who you are the president of,Who the hell do you think you are?Eddie I know you love his speakers but this guy has a very Krass attitude,we are the ones who sell your speakers you rely on us people on forums.Eddie we are not just a little forum,this guys speakers arent in a store he is factory dirrect,he needs word of mouth to sell his product the same way Tim does and so do many other factory dirrect companies.I have no problem with manufactres joining actually I like it,so I can get up close and personal with the product and the creator,I bet he wouldnt let you or any other Ascend owner audition his speakers for free.David F consumers measure speakers every good audiophile does and they often come up with different measurements than the manufacture,so what makes Tim any different.What are you gonna sue us for measuring them to,Yeah Tim is our friend,well I know he is mine and yeah your not.Polk doesent have a Damn thing to do with this post,you are just trying to cover up the fact of being a$$hole.Tim you dont have anything to appologize for,this is your forum he is the stranger,and strong Thump to you David F. and Ascend Accoustics.You can always count on me NOT EVER BUYING YOUR PRODUCT I dont care if you offer Wilson Audio performance for free,Ecoustics Im sorry but I really had to post my opinion on this matter,and to the current Ascend owners on here{Eddie and David} in particular I hope you guys dont buy anthing else from them. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1494 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, I take it you wouldn't buy Wilson speakers from Beelzebub if he was selling them for $2.99? (No offense David, I hope you don't think I'm comparing you to the Prince of Darkness.) Man oh man, this thread is going south, I'm off to bed... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 610 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie im sorry I would never buy Ascends if they were the last speaker on earth along with bose, I would buy me some real good headphones. |
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Bronze Member Username: LovegasolineNYC Post Number: 22 Registered: Jul-05 | Oh Dear... This thread seems to have shite the bed. Since there's still some cordite in the air, I figure I better clarify my post before I get sucked into the mahlstrom. I very much like the DEEP, concentrated, critical listening...the written reports describing them, and the further refinements in sonic distinctions which transpired when forum members poked, prodded, questioned, and challanged the reviewer for even more precision. I'm very eager to get back to some more of that and round #4. As for the real and/or perceived personal slights, that comes with the territory I suppose and rears its head from time to time on forums....hopefully some grounded, clear analysis, and attentive listening can bring us back to those balmy penetrating speaker insights. "Pressure?! THERE'S NO STINKIN' PRESSURE!!!" -Jan |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 612 Registered: Jun-05 | Dont worry Lovegas the reviews will continue,you can expect a real detailed review from Jan.Margie has them next and then I get them,So dont worry Ascend Accoustics wont ruin this Alegria Audios Lings will get the reviews they deserve and hopefully some happy customers to,for a real nice guy. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1466 Registered: Feb-05 | David F, take some reading for comprehension classes. I said the same principle applies. I meant ALL MANUFACTURERS!!!!!!!!!!!!. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1467 Registered: Feb-05 | Eddie, there are too many good speakers for me to consider doing business with the likes of David F. Trust me, I feel no loss! It seems fairly obvious that Ascend has joined the likes of Bose and others who threaten legal action. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 405 Registered: May-05 | David - First, I want to appologize for the name calling I resorted to. It was uncalled for and immature. I'm honestly sorry. My posts may have been misinterpreted, and I will try to clarify. I have no problem with you or any one else defending your product. I respect the fact that you take time to listen to the critics that matter the most - your customers. I also respect your obvious passion for your product and company. This was not my complaint. My complaint was the matter in which you went about went about defending your product. Instead of being professional and courteous, you made a personal attack. Something along the lines of this would have been more than sufficient - '...in response to Tim's measurements, we have found the following measurements to be true (insert graph). These measurements were done at X facility on date Y. Independant reviewers A,B,C, and D have all measured our products and agree with our measurements. We believe Tim's measurements may be incorrect due to improperly calibrated equipment... Sound charecterists Y and Z that consumers reportedly heard further reinforce our idea that Tim's measurement equipment was miscalibrated.... If you had gone about it this way instead of the way you had, I would not have had any problems with it, and would have enjoyed hearing your rebuttal. There was no need for the way you went about correcting things in an open forum. All of the "strong thumping" should have taken place out of the eyes of the consumers. I'm sure this happens everyday in the business world, but the consumers don't see it. It called professionalism. As for the "double-standard"... I can't speak for everyone else, but I didn't look at this in a friend vs corporate battle. Tim is a respected member on this forum who gets involved in topics and discussions that are (relatively) unrelated to his speakers and sales of his speakers. He has given advice to people asking DIY questions, and general speaker questions, and has not pushed his speakers on people who didn't ask about them. None of this means that I felt a strong enough loyalty to him that I would listen to him without any questions or reservations. Had it been the other way around, this post would have definately been directed toward him, and not you. Again, while I cannot speak for any one other than myself, I did not become a member and begin posting in this forum to hear the attacks between manufacturers. You have turned a consumer forum into a manufacturer's pissing contest. You have also turned someone else's thread about their opinions into you own personal arena. While I speak for myself, I'm sure their are a lot of people who feel the same way. A few have voiced that opinion, and their are probably more that feel the same, but decided to stay away all together. Further more, your follow up post reinforces my feelings about your original post. Like I said earilier, I have no problem with you defending your product. You tried to justify the manner in which you went about it and I feel it is even more unacceptable now. This reminds me of a boss who yells at an employee in front of everyone to embarrass them and make a statement. While I admire your decision to not shut his operation down as others could have, this doesn't justify your actions. You're trying to play damage control, and it isn't working. You could have yelled at him and scared him behind the scenes, you didn't need to do it here. Just because you say (and Tim may concur) that things are good between you and Tim, doesn't mean they are good between you and some of us. For the reasons I talked about above, I still do not want anything to do with your company or product. I know you won't lose any sleep over that, and either will I. I think you definately need a lesson or two in Public Relations. Regards, JR Barkamian, MSEd, ATC |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1184 Registered: Feb-04 | Excellent post Stu! Yes, David's rebuttal should have read like in a scientific journal. We don't call eachother names when we disagree with measurements. Actually David, the mere fact that you validate your course of action by not using legal action to shut Tim down permanently is scary. You just aligned yourself and Ascend Acoustics with the likes of Bose! If you had chosen that route, the negative publicity in the web would have been enormous. If I were you, I'd register all names such as www.ascendacousticssucks.com before doing something like that! So, are you going to threaten to sue us now? What's next? Wow... And I was defending you in this. Did I ever read you wrong. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1501 Registered: Mar-05 | > I said the same principle applies. I meant ALL MANUFACTURERS!!!!!!!!!!!!. Art, are you saying that Tim should also not post on this forum? Seems a bit draconian if you ask me. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 919 Registered: Mar-05 | In the best interests of keeping it cool between Tim and David, I suggest everyone drop it and move on. There is nothing left but to go downhill with this and I myself don't think it is any of our business what goes on behind the scenes of this forum in regards to agreements or threats. If you happen to know then keep it quiet. I like Tim and do not want to make it any more difficult than it already is to be successful at his business. Going back and forth like this will only cause damage to our friend. For any ill will I may have insued, I am sorry. Joe Coulson |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1502 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, > I bet he wouldnt let you or any other Ascend owner audition his speakers for free. uh, for the record, Ascend does exactly what Axiom, Rocket, and any number of Internet companies does: you get 30 days to listen and return for a full refund, you just pay return shipping. Return shipping is what I'm paying to send Tim's speakes on to Jan. The only difference is that Tim won't have to go to the trouble of issuing me a refund for the speakers since I didn't pay for them. So both cases are a "free audition" in my book, though Tim is BRAVELY assuming all the risk for not holding my money---I mean if I were a lowlife deadbeat I could have just kept his speakers instead of sending them on. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 21 Registered: Aug-05 | Okay. So, a manufacturer makes a possibly libelous post about another. The manufacturer that the post targeted defended his product and did not to pursue legal action. The only reason Ascend posted was to answer a mis-characterization of his product. If Tim had never made that post there wouldn't have been David's post. You guys do realize that if Ascend had gone the legal route Tim would have likely had an injunction against posting(gag order) and he and Alegria Audio would have just disappeared under legal fees and any legal findings without anyone knowing what happened. You would've never been mad at Ascend because you would have never known. Instead David read thru Tim's posts. Remembered the days he was a one man company and decided to help Tim learn about the business end of audio. Pretty cool in my book to help someone who could be taking your sales away after he possibly libeled your product. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1503 Registered: Mar-05 | > So dont worry Ascend Accoustics wont ruin this Alegria Audios Lings will get the reviews they deserve and hopefully some happy customers to,for a real nice guy. Tawaun, Ascend didn't write the first 3 reviews of the Lings---David Kulisch, I and Quinn did. I hope you are not implying that the 3 of us work for Ascend or something. I also hope that when it's your turn to listen to the Lings you will evaluate them with impartiality and objectivity, rather than letting your feelings towards Tim cloud your judgement. I said that I'd buy great speakers at a great price even if Beelzebub designed them, and the inverse is also true: I wouldn't say for example that Bose speakers were wonderful even if I knew that Jesus Christ designed them. To everyone on this thread, let's please get back to discussing speakers and leave out the personal aspect...I think we're all bigger than that. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1187 Registered: Feb-04 | [David] decided to help Tim learn about the business end of audio That's one way to characterize his post! Let's just say there was nothing cool about it. It could have been done much more professionally. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 22 Registered: Aug-05 | Well, Tim's post that started all this wasn't exactly professional was it? You guy are wielding a pretty big double standard around here. Possible libel is okay with you guys but refuting it isn't? |
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Anonymous | The guy that has been marketing his speakers here for weeks if not months gets defended? Have you noticed that he recommends his own product, frequently without disclosing that it is his, if someone asks for a recommendation that is anywhere close to what he has? He slams another company's product. That company corrects the falsehoods and gets taken to task for it because of how it is worded? CRAZY! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1193 Registered: Feb-04 | Possible libel is okay with you guys but refuting it isn't? No it isn't okay. Note how I and others questionned the data immediately? And he didn't come out swinging either. It read more like he was stating (possibly wrong) facts. I had no problem with david refutting it, and even defended him initially. But I dislike his hints to possible legal threats, and that's my right as a consumer to not encourage such corporate bullying. I don't buy Bose and Monster products. Now I'll just add Ascend Acoustics to that list. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 390 Registered: May-05 | OK, Anyone want to hear from the lawyer? Tim's original post "could" have been considered libelous. THAT'S A BAD THING!!! But, in fairness to Tim, I didn't read it that way because of his history of posting and the manner in which he approached things in this and prior threads. In fairness to David F, he actually took the time to go back and read Tim's prior posts. He did this BEFORE he fired off the first aalvo and he fired off the first salvo instead of simply taking legal action, probably cheaper for all concerned but probably life saving for Tim's business. Now, I said it before, I didn't appreciate the tone of David's post, especially the latter portion. I would have preferred that he stuck to the facts, much as Stu has written them. BUT, there's the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right." Here, Tim's original post was poorly written, unintentional but somewhat misleading. David F's post was poorly written, possibly intentional but not misleading AND much better than the nuclear option IMHO. So, Tim and David have resolved the problem, behind closed doors, apparently to both's satisfaction and with no "lawsuit bombs" being tossed. (Geez, I hate it when the lawyers don't get to make any money. Hey, I'm just kidding!!) David's 2nd post could have used a little PR massaging BUT he was trying to explain why he posted originally in lieu of more draconian measures and to let everyone know that he and Tim were cool. I would like everyone to take a step back and consider that business situations are alot like life. When two people conflict, there are myriad ways to resolve the conflict. The old "civillized way" used to be to draw guns and duel. Dispute settled, clear winner but not necessarily a satisfactory resolution, i.e., Ascend sues, Tim loses. NOT GOOD!!! Now, civilized people communicate. Both Tim and David apparently recognized that their communication methods could have used some sharper tools, they talked, they agreed to share some information and, behind the scenes, professionalism and good manners won out. No testerone fired up, no bombs tossed, no one died. THAT'S A GOOD THING!! Peter, I love ya to death and appreciate your well thought out, helpful posts always. BUT, go back and read David's post, he was not threatening Tim, he simply indicated that the option was available. BTW, I tell clients all the time that a lawsuit's an option. Sometimes it's a necessary option and sometimes it's an incredibly stupid option. You gotta love the U.S. of A., anyone can sue anyone for anything and it doesn't have to make sense or have a point. (The English have a slightly better system, sue stupidly and the loser pays attorney's fees. A better idea in my opinion but that's a whole different discussion.) My point being that David F considered the option, read Tim's posts, recognized what all of us recognize, Tim's a pretty good guy, thoughtful, willing to share knowledge, etc. and as Quinn pointed out, probably considered the "good old days" when he was in Tim's shoes and said, "Hey, I'll post but I'll also talk with him behind the scenes and just work this out." Well, golly, that's a pretty incredible, nice thing to do instead of getting the testerone all in a frenzy and going off half-cocked. All that said, I didn't like the tone of David's posts, BUT, I like the fact that he was thoughtful enough to look before he leaped and smart enough to consider a competitor's actions as possibly innocent instead of intentional. In the latter case, a lawsuit would have been an incredibly reasonable thing to pursue. HE DIDN'T DO IT JUST BECAUSE HE COULD!! That's a good thing. Anyway, for those of you who don't, won't, haven't considered Ascend speakers, that's too bad. But, to do it because of the above posts is just plain uncalled for and unfortunate for all concerned. Tim's OK, David's OK. So, why do we have our shorts all in a bunch. (Sorry Margie, I know that's unconfortable for you females, but it's really uncomfortable for a male, trust me.) Now, I was trying to get a couple of more old sayings in this thing but I've run out of words. Geez, I've still got 7 hours or work here, too. OUCH!! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1194 Registered: Feb-04 | Ok, thanks Dakulis. I guess my point is only that lawsuits have a marketing price in my book. If more people were offended by corporations who use lawsuits to compete, there would be fewer such lawsuits. Enough said. I do wonder about Tim's measurements. Does that mean his speakers are 10 dB from flat? Will we see a new version of the speakers come out shortly to fix that? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 613 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie Ascend is not the only company,that offers a 30 day trial Odyssey does to I can send the Epiphonys back right this second and get my money back,I know you are Quite fond of Ascend and you have a right to be you have invested in their company thats fine and I respect that.I would never discredit you and Davids reviews I know they were done unbiased because i know you and David seek the best performance for the dollar as such everyone should.Quinn on the otherhand I do think that he gave a biased review and horrible one at that,and his opinions I will not hold in high regard.As for me thats one of the things that I would never do,is to do areview biased with and with the heart,I hope to be areviewer one day.I am a absolutely brutally honest and opinated person,I never judge a speaker with the heart,I wouldnt have had over 75 pairs of speakers if I did.Tim has recomended other speakers quite often over his own at times,so for what Anon said is ludicriss,and espeacially coming from a guy frequently comes on and insults people,but yet doesent have the balls to register.Quinn do you work for Ascend because none of this happened before you got here and more importantly while you were doing the review.Edster t know you dont work for Ascend,but many times on here I was said to be working for SDAT,Im sure all of you know I dont now,well that was Josephs thought anway,and Joseph quit bad mouthing me to forum adminstrator and get over the fact that I wouldnt buy your speakers.David F. I wouldnt have taken this personal if you had not came on here and tried to make Tim look small along with rest of this,just wasnt right since the people on these forums are ones who sell and recomend your speakers,with the attitude that you as a manufacture and as person,other companies will see this tough guy routine you displayed on hear.With the way you acted and with your demenour I would not be supprsed if you end up like Meadowlark,and Pat was anice guy that would have nevr acted as you did and quite frankly I wish you could have traded spots with him.Tim just be careful,because you have popous jerks out there like that,and yes David F.I will always advise against your products no matter what you come out with.I have read your coments several times and i cant how any person on this forum would be on yourside whether they owned your products or not,well Im done before he sues me,but you really need a crash course in people skills and peoples feelings,you are not better than any of us and it dosent who you are the president of to me you dont intimidate me and you can use that for future refference if you want to.Tim watch this guy,I wouldnt trust anything that snake does ,just be really careful! |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 34 Registered: May-04 | "As for me thats one of the things that I would never do,is to do areview biased with and with the heart,I hope to be areviewer one day." "I will always advise against your products no matter what you come out with." You should read your post and re-think if you could actually do a review without bias. You think Quinn gave a biased review, and you don't think Tim's post was biased? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 391 Registered: May-05 | Peter, that's true but that would also mean fewer lawyers, then i'd have to get a real job. LOL!! T-Man, love ya death big guy but cut Quinn some slack. I've raised three kids, had three aged 4 and under at one point and I don't think he really had the time to sneak in a detailed listen and diatribe. But, he did indicate that his opinions were similar to Edster's so it really wasn't necessary to repeat the same. I appreciated Edster's review because he clarified quite well some of things I noted but could not express so well. Yeah, sometimes I can't find the right words. So, let's not be too harsh on David, he did the right thing, even if he didn't express himself in the right way. I tend to look at results and try to assess whether someone acted maliciously or innocently. Because of Tim's longstanding posts and attitudes, I never attributed intent to his post. David F, at least, took the time to look behind the post and acted appropriately instead of idiotically so let's all just get off our high horses and be glad everything worked out amicably and let's give him the same break and agree to cut him some slack and not fault his choice of words. After all, T-Man, would you like to judged by your spelling and typing skills or your content, knowledge and willingnes to provide excellent advice. I kinda like you for the latter points, big guy. OKIE DOKEY, no more bombs thrown Tim's or David F's way and on to Lings 4 and Jan's 15 minutes of fame? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 392 Registered: May-05 | Don't make me come down there, OK? I'm 5'9", weak as a kitten and I could hurt myself, you know. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 616 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah Dave you are right,but if you read back in some of David F. posts you can clearly see he tried to belittle us all,he called Tim a hobbiest every audio guy starts off as a hobbiest,what makes him any different.I stand by my comments on that whole previous post every word that I spelled correctly and incorrectly,and Curtis you havent said anything usefull since you joined here,so quote yourself you follower! |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 35 Registered: May-04 | oh boy.. TW...you are typically biased person that does not want to look at both sides. Nothing wrong with that until you claim to be unbiased. Did you not read that DaveF said he was once a hobbyist too? The only pieces that you see are the ones that make you turn red. Like it has been suggested....step back and read without emotion. Here is one thing... As DaveF did by reading Tim's post history, I suggesst that those of that have this new found hatred after reading two posts from DavidF, go and read his posts on various other forums. |
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John McA Unregistered guest | Wow, who would've guessed the speaker forum would turn into a soap opera. Dakulis -- Nice to know that there are ethical members of our profession who do not advise clients to sue at every offense. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4975 Registered: May-04 | The nice man in the brown truck dropped the Lings at my doorstep this morning. Priced per pound, I'd say you get a lot for your money. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4976 Registered: May-04 | Fifteen minutes? Fame? Dak, you've not been paying attention. |
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John McA Unregistered guest | Thank god, now we can get back to speakers (hopefully) |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 621 Registered: Jun-05 | You dont know me Curtis before you make your little comments,anyway Im going by his tone he may be able to fool you with that bullsh$t,but I dont know any hobiest like him,I see through it and others do to so stop defending that guy,he came on here and put us all down.Why cant you see that? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 394 Registered: May-05 | OK Jan, NO PRESSURE NOW, right? We've got WWIII on our hands and you've got the speakers, a fair bit of knowledge (yes, I'm kidding) and, now, if you only had a decent amp and speakers to compare those Lings to, we'd be in business. NOW, LOL!!! John McA, always a pleasure to meet another lawyer. We've got an incredible profession, great members that do community service and provide pro bono services like crazy. We really need to get a better PR dept., though, it sucks. How come people now question the media on just about everything, except their opinions regarding lawyers, huh? Yeah, there's bad apples but name a profession or job where there aren't. (Any one want to step out on the minister/priest/reverend/rabbi limb, for example? I thought not. OK, I'm getting off my high horse now. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 626 Registered: Jun-05 | So,Jan Do us all a great big favor and get this review started so we can forget this crap.When are you gonna start?I must admit I am eager for your review. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 395 Registered: May-05 | OK Jan, are we there, yet? We're waiting. How do they sound? I'm thinking a new thread is in order so we can bury this one. How about "Lord of the Lings"? Or, "Jan Wonka, and the Ling Factory." Or, "The Last Mo-Ling-can". Oh, that's really bad, not even close to funny, I'm afraid. Someone out there has to have a better title and, certainly, some better wit? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 396 Registered: May-05 | T-Man, my thoughts exactly. On with the show, already. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 628 Registered: Jun-05 | David how about LingFest Now Playing |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 921 Registered: Mar-05 | Well said David. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 632 Registered: Jun-05 | Well whatever, Tim remember what I said be careful!well folks I think we ought to close this thread now and get ready for the rest of the Alegria Audio Lings reviews.Im out of this thread for good!! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 398 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Joseph, I always appreciate your compliments. OH, you meant that David. Kidding aside, thanks for the additional post, David. Apology accepted and trust me, I know what it's like to operate without sleep, shoot first and ask questions later. I appreciate the tone of the apology and, as I said previously, we all need to cut you the same slack, we cut Tim, me or anyone else that shoots off their mouth and then recognizes that it didn't come across exactly as intended. GROUP HUG??? Well, except Jan, he's got work to do, music to listen to, thoughts to organize, opinions to pen and a review to write. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 399 Registered: May-05 | T-man, I'd go for Lingfest Now Playing. Or, "Return of the Lings", maybe? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1201 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks for the apology and explanation David. It is appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4985 Registered: May-04 | Mr. Fabrikant - Thank you for your particpation in our forum. While opinions are split on the matter of manufacturers participating in this forum, I find tremendous value in the views of someone who devotes a large portion of their time to audio and bringing music into our homes. I doubt that, at this point, you will change the minds of those who have formed their opinion of your intial response. I might even suggest that to make the attempt to alter anyone's perception of your intent will only dig the hole a bit deeper. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. Your answer will stand as is in the infinity that is the internet. Unless anyone has any objections to another member on this forum, I would like to invite you to participate in our discussions not as a manufacturer but as a fellow enthusiast. As you can tell, our group is made up of those who enjoy a spirited debate every now and again. I don't know if this is something you would view as a positive in your position as a manuafacturer; but I feel the input of someone who is in touch with the audio world on a day to day basis would be beneficial to many of our "discussions". I'm not asking you to be a referee, but to give us your input on topics where our knowledge is sometimes less than complete. There would be no need for any product recommendations since we seem to be able to supply more than enough possibilites to anyone who asks, "what should I buy?" Instead, I think your input regarding the actual manner in which audio works in our homes and the direction the audio markets are headed would be most beneficial. I understand you are quite busy running a company and would be taking on another task by devoting any amount of time to the forum. If you would consider the request, I do believe we could do with another well informed member of our group. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4986 Registered: May-04 | DF - Should you decide to take me up on the offer to join the forum on occasion, is there any issue you would like to put to us? Post any question under "Start a new thread" at the top of the page under each group; "Receivers", "Speakers", "Amplifiers", etc. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 922 Registered: Mar-05 | Do you listen #2 Jan? lol |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 400 Registered: May-05 | Jan, Thoughtful and well said. As you all know, I think Art is always civil and well-informed but on this issue I have to agree with Jan. I would welcome David's "professional" input and advice, just as I welcome Tim's "professional" input and advice. As Jan pointed out, I don't think it's the right place to "hawk" products but I think that there is merit in participating in discussions about things which you love and, especially, when you can bring a measure of expertise and understanding that I do not have personally. Heck, I usually take depositions of such folks when I get a chance, not to worry here, though, Tim and David. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 401 Registered: May-05 | OK Jan, Enough stalling around now. Let's get to it. Listen, formulate and write, got that? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1203 Registered: Feb-04 | Sounds good to me! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 403 Registered: May-05 | Very reasonable, David. Thanks for the nudge, Jan. Speaking of nudges . . . |
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New member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | Welcome David Too! Besides your expertise you must tell the occational story. Jan What's taking so long? You aren't just laid back enjoying.... are you? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1472 Registered: Feb-05 | David F - With the caveats you laid out I feel that it would be fine for you to join us. BTW - I was never upset, I just voiced my opinion. I would feel the same if my beloved Paradigm behaved that way on our forum. I also would like to say that I was not excusing Tim and his misinformation intended or not. Once I had asked Tim where in his own hometown of Seattle I could listen to his speakers and he stated his house, I dismissed him as a manufacturer and welcomed him as a man with a dream. I wish that David from Ascend would have handled it with a little more finesse. As I stated before the Ascends were winning anyway. Keep in mind that I have never said anything directly about Ascend speakers as I have not heard them (this is where I inoculate myself against impending litigation). :-) |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 634 Registered: Jun-05 | I am going against not posting on this thread,I dont mind manufactures on the forum i like it I was the first one to state that.As far as this situation goes with David F. I still feel the same way I felt at 2:25 PM and Art stand by your statements you made earlier,you didnt make them for nothing.To everyone else I comend you guys for having the compassion to emrace him and welcome him to the forum,but its funny when I came here their was only one guy who said welcome to ecoustics Tawaun and that was Art.David F. came on flamboyant and krass just like I did,but actually much worse than me,you know its funny how things work I just listened to the Epiphonys and a few epiphonies came to mind,im find now and I know whats what.Stu i really like how you stood by your opinions of Ascend Acoustics{David F.}It should be more people like you,Im ok I guess I just feel a bit betrayed,well I guess i better become a manufacture Huhh? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1507 Registered: Mar-05 | ah, a few beams of sunlight re-emerging after the storm... : ) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 404 Registered: May-05 | Hey now, T-Man, I dare you to find any post or thread where I didn't embrace you and show you respect. Where's the love, T-Man? (Plus, Art's a pushover, he loves everybody, just ask his wife.) Of course on the whole respect thing, a brick knows more about audio than I do (LOL), but I fully respected your knowledge and right to your opinion. T-Man, if you keep this up, I'm going to send you home just like T.O. - the $47.8 million dollar man that needs a bigger contract? What's with that, anyway? Don't be trying to rewrite history here. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 405 Registered: May-05 | Hey, you know I'm just playing with ya, right? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 636 Registered: Jun-05 | David dont take me so literal I forget things you see Peter and Joseph and Jan quote me all the time{ha ha} David you know your my Partner if I dont have one on here,David we are very fortunate to have you on here,and im sure im not the only one who feels like that.And give yourself more credit about what you know about this David me,Jan,Art,John A. may know a ton,but we all learn something new about it everyday,hell Peter introduces new quotes and specs everyday to me and yeah {you to jan}Jan you know a lot but you have to admit Peter digs up something everyday.{Ha Ha}.What Im trying to say is everyone on here has earned my respect even If we flare up at each other the ones as far as respect you know who you are. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 930 Registered: Mar-05 | David you better be careful. T might give you a post like this: originally posted by Tawaun A.Williams "Jan man or women, Its always been obvious what I think of you and your stupid threads,its amazing that people even listen to you.Now I have told you once dont try to communicate with me I dont like you and I dont value any of your redundant opinions.So you can push your way up to 5000 posts on talking about crap like you always do,you little Pr1ck,your lucky I dont live anywhere near Dallas you would be scared and shaking in your little high heel boots like the little girl that you are.Sorry everyone I just had to say that knowone likes being called stupid especially by someone who doesent even know you,now I think that really goes up higher on the stupid meter.I will not make this another word slugfest,so you guys have fun, Jan you only have a few more times to insult me and it wont be about words,I promise you that." Scared the heck outta me. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5011 Registered: May-04 | I don't think we needed to revisit that post. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 650 Registered: Jun-05 | You are trying to start something Joseph why are you trying to keep things going? I can see who the new trouble maker is now.Man in your profile it says you are 30 years old,why dont you start acting like it dude.Is this because I wony buy the Rainmakers Damn man get over it!! |
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Anonymous | Joe is right. Tawaun should never have been allowed back on the forum after that post. Apart from being a moron he was threatening violence against Jan Vigne and the forum's moderator should not allow such people to participate. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 934 Registered: Mar-05 | Inconsistency Tawaun, but I will drop it. That was to harsh. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 651 Registered: Jun-05 | Anon you are coward,you are not even a member on this forum,you dont even have the courage to post a user name furthermore,your opinion doesent even count you dont even exist.Joseph you came in and got in me and Davids conversation ,Joe I have told you countless times to let stuff go,but you wont and I know longer reconize you anymore and I will never reply to any of your posts again.Jan I'm sorry for that all over again man trully from the bottom of my heart. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 411 Registered: May-05 | Hey guys, it's ancient history. Jan and T have put it behind them. T apologized and his posts have been well thought out and appropriate ever since. SO, let's just move on already. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5018 Registered: May-04 | This is me moving on. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2609 Registered: Dec-03 | David Fabrikant I for one definatly feel manufacturers when they state they are and don't push there products on eveyone are a major benefit to a forum about what they do, you will have insight that maybe we don't realize. A while back we had a subwoofer manufacturer in the sub forum and he was a wealth of knowlage and very happy to answer pretty much any question of how things are made/designed/tested it was great. I am a DIY speaker builder and rebuilder of sorts myself and have talked with Tim in the past on testing procedures amung other things. Now while I do see the difference between what Tim claimed and your measurements are different. I do see however by the measurements you gave that if you start from just about 100hz to about 1khz there is allmost 6db difference and that continues througout the rest of the frequency range. So could it be tims measurements weren't as far off but more he was off of the starting point being 100hz instead of 200hz and being down about 6db instead 10db. So that wouldn't put tims measurements off as far as some may think. Meaning he is reading about 4db higher then he should and off of his ranges by 100hz. So intern that would make the ascends from 100hz on up rize about 6db and tims would be about 4db low at this point which would account for what people are hearing. Not saying that one is a better voiced speaker then the other but what I would gather from that info is that your speakers are very articulate and provide a very nice top end and that tims are more laid back with a larger bass pressence. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 36 Registered: May-04 | Kegger....DavidF did imply that his indevidual speaker measurements below 200hz were not accurate since they did not save close mic data. More speculation probably doesn't help matters much. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2610 Registered: Dec-03 | I was just looking at the data provided and that is what I'm left to conclude. Seems my interpratation could be very viable by both the graphs and what people have posted about the perceptions of both sets of speakers. If tims equipment is off by 10db then I don't think the peoples postings on what his speakers sound like would be what they are. I'm not suggesting that the ascends are anything less then what they are designed to be I'm just suggesting that tims measurment equipment may not be as far off as some may think that it is. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 37 Registered: May-04 | Understood. But conclusion assumes the data below 200hz is accurate, and it is not(as stated in DavidF's post). You are also assuming that Tim made a mistake in his post. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2611 Registered: Dec-03 | So david posted data that is not correct? And I am to know this is accurate. Also I'm not assuming that anyone did anything, what are you implying? I read that Tim said 10db, no assuming anything there. And I looked at the data provided by david and it shows what I said, about 6db. So I should assume that data is not correct? Again all I'm saying is if you look at the data that was provided and the 10db that was stated I come to the conclusion that we are off by 4db, that's it. If you can't see it and figure the lower frequencies are not down as low as they show then you are assuming something not me. At this point that is what I gather from the info presented to me. |
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Bronze Member Username: CurtisManhattan Beach, CA Post Number: 38 Registered: May-04 | Did you read David's post" "We don't save close mic measurements so I can't post an accurate representation below around 200Hz" Tim's post...which is now gone, said this: "More specifically, from 200Hz to 20kHz the CBM-170s climb about 10db. " You are taking a 100hz starting point which neither Tim or David used. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1224 Registered: Feb-04 | Curtis is right. Discard anything below 200 Hz on that plot. It would be better if the x-axis began at 200 Hz and omitted the basd data to ebgin with. It's pretty flat from 200 Hz to 1 KHz. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2612 Registered: Dec-03 | Well I'll leave it to you to decerne what you want and believe what you want. But I read that the measurement was taken at one meter and the graph posted shows approximatly a 6db rise from 100db on up regardless of who said what. So you look at it how you want/belive what you want/interpret what you want. I got what I needed from it. No hard feelings, you have a nice day! And I will now leave this thread alone. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2614 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't have much time to respond right now but thank you David for that info. One quick question as I don't know much of your speakers, no knock just a question after seeing the second graph and forming an oppinion. Are these speakers designed with wanting a sub used with them as they do fall steadely off from about 100hz which should make them a perfect candidate for a sub at about 80hz which frees them up to do the rest and not have the hard chore of the lower frequencies, perfect for home theatre. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1226 Registered: Feb-04 | David, thanks for such an informative post! Most of us understood the basics of the procedure leading to bad data below 200 Hz. It is only too bad that Kegger didn't, but it is a shame that he responded with the following after we tried to explain it to him: So you look at it how you want/belive what you want/interpret what you want. I got what I needed from it. Not understanding something is one thing. Wanting to continue mis-understand it to suit a purpose is quite another. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2615 Registered: Dec-03 | Peter I was writing that post before you posted then when I posted it you had allready posted yours that I did not see. And as curtis was saying I was assuming things I wanted to get the scoop from david not from anyone else telling me what I should understand. I read the same info everyone else did and understood it peter! But I wanted to hear it from david on how the data was assembled and the test for the lower frequencies. Thank you! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1230 Registered: Feb-04 | Okay... cross-posting... Sorry! |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 167 Registered: Apr-05 | Regarding the question of manufacturers participating in a forum, I'm all for it. As long as he/she is not shilling, I think they have a lot to contribute, particularly in terms of their relative expertise. I see a number of speaker manufacturers on other fora and almost without exception all of them offer intelligent, insightful comments. Most are very helpful in offering advice on what to look for in a speaker and the like. I didn't have any problem with David defending his product; it seemed like the thing to do at the time. It may seem over-simplistic but I think when any member has the impulse to respond in a negative fashion to their perceived tone of any given post, they need to step back for a moment; take a deep breath; re-read the post with the understanding that you're not face to face with the person; they can't see facial expressions or hear vocal inflections and may be misinterpreting or at least over-reacting to the comments. Just my 2cents. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 672 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah thats possible Jimvm,but I dont think that was the case here. |
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Silver Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 168 Registered: Apr-05 | Perhaps. It could be that we have different approaches to things like this. I may be reading you incorrectly but you seem to "shoot from the hip" and ask questions later. My inclination is to try to give folks the benefit of the doubt. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1535 Registered: Mar-05 | > I think when any member has the impulse to respond in a negative fashion to their perceived tone of any given post, they need to step back for a moment; take a deep breath; re-read the post with the understanding that you're not face to face with the person; they can't see facial expressions or hear vocal inflections and may be misinterpreting or at least over-reacting to the comments. Excellent reminder, Jim. |
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Mauimusicman Unregistered guest | OK, I took a step back, took a deep deep deep breath so, now I am ready to buy me some ascends...yeeeeha ! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 677 Registered: Jun-05 | You are both correct,yes Jimvm I shoot from the hip maybe to often,but im working on that though.In this case I Dont think I was wrong,besides David F. brought this on his self,if he would'nt have come on here not shooting from the hip himself this thread would not have exploded the way it did.Besides Jimvm this isnt about me,you could say us I wasnt the only one shooting from the hip.This is one time that I dont regret anything I said and I still stand by the way I feel about situation,JimVm im not only person here that comes out shooting its several others that do also. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2616 Registered: Dec-03 | "From what I understood from your original posts was that you were looking for a direct response from me... and I was happy to provide some insight. Regarding your second question, yes, I do recommend the use of a subwoofer if you like deep bass (definitely a sub for HT use). I am a big fan of active high passing (which limits the excursion of the low frequency driver thereby allowing it to better resolve midrange detail) There are many people enjoying CBM-170 without subwoofers, but I do recommend one." David Fabrikant Again thank you, yes this board not being moderated can get pretty outragious at times but usually cooler heads prevail. Yes I was asking the question directly at you as I thought you would know. And I agree whole heartedly on the use of a sub when you have a smaller driver trying to do both bass and midrange at the same time, IMHO it just doesn't work. I have tried to get the point accross to many people but they just don't seem to understand that if you let the driver do what it does best and not try to overdue it that generally you should have a better sounding system. I know a multidriver system is frowmned on by many but I generally prefer the sound of a 3-way system with a fairly large woofer (10" or larger) for most of the music I tend to listen too (mainly rock) but I also enjoy a 2-way monitor on stands with a sub quite a bit too. Thank you for your time and the responses, now get to work! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 682 Registered: Jun-05 | Davd F. I will lower my gauntlet,Its been many times David,Peter,and Art have told me to step back and take a look,so I will get over your Flamboyant entrance to this forum as Peter said to me when I got here,and welcome you to the team, man have fun and its the weekend man you can take you a break have you some fun,we all would love to hear some of your vast insight on all facets of audio. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 364 Registered: Jul-04 | David F and everyone else I, for one, think Ecoustics could use more moderation. I was used to Head-Fi.org where there was PLENTY of input and color but also a decent amount of moderation. Guys got banned and that felt right (banned temporarily I think). I don't mean to disrespect anyone and I understand that psychological studies of relationships show there is more than one way to relate to others succesfully (John Gott - studies on marriage relating patterns, for example). I just find it unpleasant to participate too much. It has helped to turn off automatic emails every time someone adds to the list - so I come here ready for battle - with my emotional armor on. But I hesitate to post cause I expect incoming missiles to come now about half the time. So, I am not going to change ecoustics, and I am not saying that you guys are all wrong. I am asking for other views on the wrassling matches we get into. Maybe I can look at it differently. One of the three successful relating types that Gott found was the couple that would fight and get uptight easily - but they both understood this behavior and were expecting it from each other. I guess my problem is that I am one of the other relating types and am not comfortable with LOTS of confrontation and s**t being thrown in my face. (Of course s**t is in the eye of the beholder - so to speak). How was that for a run-on thought? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 365 Registered: Jul-04 | By s**t that has been flung in my face - I do not mean lies or bad arguments - but rather harshness or name calling - truth or not. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 686 Registered: Jun-05 | Sometimes its gonna be arguments on any forum Don.So what are you proposing we should do? |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | Tawaun, I think you should just keep buying a lot of speakers and keep glorifying everyone of them. Just Humble opinion |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 689 Registered: Jun-05 | Why thank you Anon,Ill buy a pair Green Moutain and give them the worst review known to the audo industry just for you,what do you think? |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | Sure! I mean, sooner or later you were going to buy them anyway right? Think about it, if you do buy them indeed, you are going to praised them just like all other 137 pairs that you have owned, right ? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 690 Registered: Jun-05 | So, Anon whats this all about are you finding it hard to praise your Bose I understand if owned a underacheiving speaker like that I would be bitter to. |
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Anoni Unregistered guest | BOSE ! no, do not own BOSE, I did (301's)when I was poor and lonely, I was confused, did not know what to do, I was desperated, please don't be harsh on me, I did it for the money...... lol Is BOSE on your "still to buy" list ? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 693 Registered: Jun-05 | Nope, never in my 31 years on this earth.Although you still seem desperate and lonely to a large degree. |
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anoni Unregistered guest | Yes, I am so lonely, that is why I really enjoy coming to this forum, I feel like a fish in the water ! everyone here posts so often, any day at any time, like yourself for example. Clearly, this is where you spend most of your day. Don't worry we will comfort each other.... |
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anoni Unregistered guest | by the way, My team (Giants) will beat the Browns today are you a brown's or bengal's fan? or neither ? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 695 Registered: Jun-05 | After the Bengals traded away Dillion I had no more use for them |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 370 Registered: Jul-04 | I am not proposing anything - other than that you give me your perspectives on how you enjoy th elist anyway - despite the occasional harshness. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 696 Registered: Jun-05 | It really is some people here that are pretty up to snuff with whats going on in audio.Most people dont have the gear that the audioreview forum does or audioasylum,and Audiogon,but just as much enthusiastic about audio as the rest of them.Im getting used to everyone and getting into less arguments now.All I can say is find somewhere where you can be happyat Don. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 371 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks T |
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