Surrounds or sub first?
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 326 Registered: Jul-04 | My system briefly: 1 Pioneer 563a sacd/dvd-a player 1 Onkyo 501 6.1 receiver 2 Axiom M22s 1 Axiom M2 for a center 2 Athena R1s as surrounds ($60 each) 1 Velodyne cht-8 sub ($150 on sale) (Ascend 170s for the bedroom) I have three reasonable options for upgrading my system. 1) the ever unpopular "leave it the way it is" and spend the money on something else, or save the money. 2) Get matching surrounds Axiom QS4s $370-400 3) Get an SVS or a Hsu sub for $300-400 I am leaning toward leaving it like it is until I save for a while (having never heard a good matching surround system I don't really know what I am missing yet). And then what would be the best next step? A sub? QS4s that match my M22s? Thanks for any opinions and feedback. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 846 Registered: Mar-05 | I would go for option 2 first, then a sub. If you like watching movies, it is nice to have matching speakers all the way round, it makes movement of sound fluid throughout the soundtrack. Definitely get the sub next. That's my suggestion. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 328 Registered: Jul-04 | thanks more money sunk into this obsession. I will probably take my time in doing this and look for used items on audiogon. |
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Bronze Member Username: Divin11112000Michigan Post Number: 42 Registered: Dec-04 | I have to disagree, but mostly based on what I've been told by others. I would upgrade the sub first, you can use any old speakers for surrounds (at least temp.) You most likely will not get the same deep sound from your fronts (unless they have a built in sub). You will be missing a lot in movies without upgrading the sub. However I'd save money and get a good sub, if not that just puts you x-amount (spent on cheapo sub) away from getting a good sub or surrounds. just my 2 cents worth |
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Bronze Member Username: Divin11112000Michigan Post Number: 43 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh forgot to mention that is the way that I purchased mine. I had cheapo surrounds and I unfortunately bought a cheapo sub (although i used it for about a year while i saved up) I did get surrounds about 1-2mths after the sub. Matching surrounds do make a difference, but not as much as the sub did (at least for me) and I do about 60/40 ht/music |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 329 Registered: Jul-04 | My sub is supposed to be good but not great. Hawk put it on a list of four or so brands worth getting. I still am hesitant to spend money on either surrounds or a sub - but that is probably good - it is growth for me. I am not spending money as recklessly as I did a few months ago! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 330 Registered: Jul-04 | Chris What sub did you get eventually? |
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Bronze Member Username: Builder1Post Number: 20 Registered: Feb-05 | I really wouldn't won't a surround setup without a sub, so I'd go for the sub first. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1103 Registered: Feb-04 | I'd get the sub, and would try to spring for the STF-3 but not lower than the STF-2. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 429 Registered: Dec-03 | Sub first. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1837 Registered: Jan-05 | I'd save for awhile, and then buy a sub once you've ponied up enough cash to spend $1000 on a SVS in the 'plus' class. If you watch many movies, you want and need all the sub you can get because of their demanding LFE tracks. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 333 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks all By the way I enjoy movies once in a while but the room is so small and the tv is so small and out of position - that surround sound sounds funny, though nice. Maybe I should spring for a new room first! My sub use is 80% music, 10% movies and 10% place to put the newspapers. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 431 Registered: Dec-03 | Oops. Looks like we forgot a very important question. How big is your room? If you've got M22s in a small room using a sub with them for music could be challenging. I'm not sure I would in many circumstances other than something seriously bass heavy. A big SVS sub is WAY overkill in a small room. You may want to consider one of the smaller, sealed subs that are available as these tend to have a more "natural" roll off than the vented ones which can be more enjoyable for music. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 226 Registered: Apr-05 | Go for the Sub. I'm not sure what your 8" velodynes are like, but that STF-2 kicks butt. |
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New member Username: SnarlOntario Canada Post Number: 1 Registered: Jun-05 | Sub 1st  |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1108 Registered: Feb-04 | Welcome to the forum, fellow Canadian. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 334 Registered: Jul-04 | room is 9 foot by 20 foot, ceiling is about 8 feet high. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 434 Registered: Dec-03 | 9 feet wide? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1113 Registered: Feb-04 | Narrow room... |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 335 Registered: Jul-04 | I live at my work. It is a group home / community for Developmentally Disabled folks (AKA mentally retarded but that term is crappy). We were going to have a small but comfortable basement apartment for my wife and I. But, then we decided to adopt a kid from China before they started renovating the building. So they squeezed one more bedroom into the plans for our already small apartment. (The rent is free! They can't charge me legally to live where I work. Not that they would want to, but they can't even think about it). 700 square foot apartments in Adams Morgan in DC go for about $1200 to $1500 a month to rent. Ours is about 550 square feet. My little Velodyne CHT-8 sub seems pretty large in this context. I measured the room again - 91 inches wide or about 7.6 feet wide - my mistake! I think my memory isn't what it used to be - but I can't remember so I am not sure. I think originally it was to be 9 feet wide. It is a living room / kitchen so it is actually 27 feet long and 7.5 feet high. I have abandoned all hope of a great surround sound setup! We are able to save a lot of money every month due to the free rent. We may buy a house one day - but houses are so damn expensive here. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 144 Registered: Jul-05 | Given your situation then, I suppose I would root for option #1. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 145 Registered: Jul-05 | Of course you can still take pride in the fact that your system as is wipes the floor with most peoples HT. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1116 Registered: Feb-04 | DA might have something there. Or buy a small sealed box sub that will be pleasing for music as well. Perhaps the 10 inch Titanic... |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 337 Registered: Jul-04 | I am unfamiliar with small sealed subs. All I ever heard about was svs and Hsu and figured I would get a cheap one. I guess it is off to the sub threads for me. Thanks We used to have a 900 square foot apartment that cost us $1200 a month. Much bigger than we needed, but free is better than a lot of other things, to me. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1121 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm talking about this one: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=300-760&DID=7&raid=37&r ak=300-760 I've never heard them but people on the Klipsch forum rave about the 15 inch model. Very tight accurate bass. Want me to hunt down a user review on that web site? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 339 Registered: Jul-04 | A build it yourself one - cheap and fun! That might work. Yes if you can find a user review. Is the main difference between most subs and sealed subs that it is sealed and therefore easily tighter for less cost, and also less volume? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 340 Registered: Jul-04 | http://www.onhifi.com/product/dayton_titanicsub.htm I found this review |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1124 Registered: Feb-04 | Found it... http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=58977& |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 341 Registered: Jul-04 | Summary from the onhifi.com review: "So there you have it. For $349 and about an hour's labor, you can buy yourself one heck of a subwoofer. It's solidly designed by a true audio superstar and it's built like a tank. It even exudes a kind of manly (er, subwooferly) charm perched on its serious spikes and clad in deep black crinkle finish." "I've had $5000 subs in my system that will go lower -- although I thought 28Hz from a 10" sub in my room was pretty impressive (and wait 'til you factor in the price!) -- but I've also auditioned $1500 subs that weren't as articulate and controlled as this little gem. In terms of cost-to-performance ratio alone, the Dayton Loudspeakers 10" Titanic subwoofer stands at the top of the heap." "Add the fact that assembling it is fun and that the company makes it easy for you to experiment with different degrees of bass boost, and the deal just looks even better. The Titanic's one heck of a good subwoofer and it represents a bargain that borders on theft. You simply can't go wrong buying the 10" Titanic." Now on to the Klipsch forums review - thanks Peter. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1125 Registered: Feb-04 | Good stuff. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 342 Registered: Jul-04 | They had two people who owned the 15" dayton DIY sub. Came out better (lower) than the Hsu vtf-2 in some respects. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 343 Registered: Jul-04 | There goes $350 - pretty soon! The Dayton kit reportedly goes down to 28Hz and is smaller than what I have now. The Velodyne goes down to only 40Hz. My Velodyne cht-8 is 12" W x 15.5" H x 16.5" D The Dayton 10" is: 14" W x 14" H x 14-1/4" D Wider but not as deep or tall - should fit well and sound much better. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1126 Registered: Feb-04 | Sounds like a good plan to me. You'll of course let us know how it sounds if you pull the trigger. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 550 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah I heard that sub on their show room playing music,sounds pretty good.Parts express is in Springboro,Ohio about 12 miles from my house,they have every driver that Vifa,Peerless,Tang Band,BG ribbons,and Usher a audio mans wet dream,Dayton makes some nice parts,I would be willing to try it Don |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 344 Registered: Jul-04 | It will be done and reviewed...In a few weeks I think. Thanks for the good advice, guys. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 346 Registered: Jul-04 | Titanic Reviews: Goes down to 28-30Hz 11 reviews 4.82 of 5 http://www.audioreview.com/cat/audioreview/speakers/subwoofers/dayton/PRD_ 119392_2741crx.aspx#reviews Velodyne CHT-8 Reviews Goes down to 35Hz 5 reviews 4.8 of 5 http://www.audioreview.com/cat/audioreview/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-ac oustics/PRD_286736_2741crx.aspx I wonder if there really is much difference? Maybe I already chose well? I couldn't find professional reviews of the Velodyne CHT-8 |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 147 Registered: Jul-05 | I wouldn't count on a night and day difference, but you never know until you try. I suppose the most important question though is how satisfied are you with the Velodyne? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 347 Registered: Jul-04 | http://www.hometheatermag.com/subwoofers/177/ Professional review of the Velodyne CHT-10 How satisfied with the CHT-10? It seems fine, I don't really have much to compare it to. I could go back to the stores and listen I guess. I also could experiment with placement and reassure the wife it is only an experiment. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 348 Registered: Jul-04 | Whoops I meant CHT-8 I don't have the 10 inch one. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 148 Registered: Jul-05 | " I could go back to the stores and listen I guess. I also could experiment with placement and reassure the wife it is only an experiment." Probably wouldn't be a bad idea before spending $350. On another note, just how badly do you want to piss off your neighbors anyways? |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 349 Registered: Jul-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/106862.html Seems a Hsu would be clearly better than what I have. I wonder how small they are. Hmm - STF-1 is skinnier and about as deep but taller. down to 32Hz (+-2db) $299 and no need to put it together. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 554 Registered: Jun-05 | I dont know if I would go on that Don,I would go with Dayton they make killer drivers,I think all you have to do is put the amp in anyway.Hsu is highly rated though,I think the Dayton is more musical though. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1132 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm thinking the Titanic might be more musical, but I do feel that the STF-3 is musical. I'll admit that I love the 25 Hz extension of the STF-3 for HT and it still integrates well with music for me. I've used crossover points of 80 Hz to 40 Hz with it, and never higher. I was suggesting the STF-2 earlier because it has the same low end extension as the STF-3. Don't know about the STF-1... Tough call, but I'm pretty sure either the STF-1 or Titanic will be better than the Velodyne. As I said in that thread you linked to, I wasn't impressed with the CHT-12 at all. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 359 Registered: Jul-04 | thanks all |
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Bronze Member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 38 Registered: Mar-04 | Upgrade sub first - that will make by far the biggest difference in sound quality - not only for movies, but also for music - a good sub will really "open the music up". Shaun |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 362 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks Shaun |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 373 Registered: Jul-04 | Well, I have almost saved up the money and based on much advice am planning to get the STF-2 AFTER vacation. No Regrets--- |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1263 Registered: Feb-04 | Cool! I sure like my STF-3! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1583 Registered: Mar-05 | Don, you might want to look at what was said about the Dayton 12" sub in this thread: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239993 |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 374 Registered: Jul-04 | Well, I ordered the STF-2 but then realized that would really limit my placement options - like I could put it anywhere in my new apartment that I would need to get after my wife kicked me out! Seriously it would have been a big struffle over 7 Hz deeper sound. So, I called Hsu and after a discussion with the guy on the phone decided to cahnge it to the STF-1 - which will fit three different places in my living room (without being something we trip over. We will see what she thinks!) The guy on the phone said the extra 7 Hz (32Hz or 25Hz) would not be noticeable to an untrained ear, and would only be helpful on organ and cello music. I like cellos but I like being married better. He also said they would enclose a test disc so I could get a sense what I am missing. BTW I cut out a paper the size of the footprint of the STF-2 and was trying to see where it could fit and my wife asked what I was doing and was upset when I answered. The stf 1 is about the same size as the Velodyne I now have so it shouldn't be an issue. What can you do? I hope Paul is not reading this! |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 375 Registered: Jul-04 | "Struffle" - egads I invented a new word! I meant "struggle." |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1561 Registered: Feb-05 | I can relate Don. My wife will not stand in the way of my getting a piece of audio gear but I try to be considerate. My sub has a very small footprint and still delivers 25hz at 100db and is the most musical I've heard. I hope you enjoy your new sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1709 Registered: Mar-05 | Don make sure you post a detailed review of the STF-1 compared to your Velodyne when it comes in. I've always been curious about the STF-1 but figured that an extra $100 for the STF-2 is a no-brainer, other than WAF but my wife is resigned to us having at least *one* sub...two would be grounds for divorce though, LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2153 Registered: Jan-05 | I wont argue with the smaller sub choice, but for different reasons. In fact, if you live in an apartment, I dont think you should have any sub. As for the stupid HSU 'alleged' tech on the phone???.....LOL Who's he kidding?? I guess that halfwit was assuming you never watch movies. After all, those are the most demanding sountracks of all, and he completely neglected them during his uninformed recommendation. If you want to even 'sniff' the range of todays movie soundtracks, you better hope you can go well below 30hz. Otherwise, all you're getting is a bad impersonation of the real thing. Since you live in an apartment though, stick with the micro-cubes and save the subwoofer for a later date. |
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Bronze Member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 40 Registered: Mar-04 | I agree with Paul. You really need a sub to dip well below 30hz to get the full effect of today's movies. True, most of us cannot "hear" anything below 20hz, but it is nice to have a sub that has the ability to go down below that (same as having an amp capable of going out to 100khz - we cannot hear it, but it makes the sound more "open and full") Plus, that is when you can feel and sense the bass as opposed to hearing it...good luck! SHaun |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 459 Registered: May-05 | Don, I'm waiting for the review once you get the new sub home. Good luck and let us know what it sounds/feels like. LOL Dave |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 376 Registered: Jul-04 | Art - thanks for the nice response. Edster, you also. - Two little subs running in your house - sounds like the children you always wanted! Paul and Shaun - thanks for the feedback. I think you are absolutely correct when it comes to movies. I actually told the Hsu tech on the phone that I use the sub for 95% music and that movies was not something I was worried about. I was warned to do otherwise by someone up higher on the list or on another list. He said I would want the extra Hz when I finally heard a good sub, but - alas - this is all I want to do at present. My apartment is small and even I wouldn't want anything bigger at present. Dave - it's like old home week. When one of us actually puts down money on something the others chime in and encourage (or nicely scold). I appreciate all of the input! Don |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 384 Registered: Jul-04 | The Hsu STF-1 came today! I hooked it up quickly and adjusted the volume knob some. I haven't yet adjusted the cross over setting and only messed with the phase switch a little. All that other stuff takes some reviewing of the manual for me to do right. I suppose I can borrow my neighbors audio meter this weekend, as well. The comparison between the Velodyne CHT-8 and the Hsu STF-1? Both 8 inchers, the Hsu is about an inch skinnier but an inch deeper and higher. But in the corner I stuck it there is now room to spare that the Velodyne didn't give. The Hsu looks stunningly like an Ascend speaker. Maybe by design? Didn't Dr. Hsu and David Fabrikant both work for M&K at one point? I know that Ascend sells Hsu subs, so maybe Ascend designed their speakers to match the Hsu subs? Uh - oh yeah - the sound. I am not really good at hearing or describing what I hear, but the Hsu seems to blend exactly with my Axiom M22s. The Velodyne seemed occasionally to be something else - like a timbre that was significantly different from the speakers. I guess it is just the quality of the Hsu matches the M22s. Now my M22s sound like they have signifcantly deeper bass and when I turn the Hsu up I don't get the lowered quality I think I got with the Velodyne. I wouldn't exactly call the Velodyne boomy - but some people might. The Hsu is definitely better. I discovered that by moving a bookcase I could probably fit a STF-2 easily - but the WAF is strong around here and I dare not challenge her delight that the Hsu looked smaller than the Velodyne. "For once daddy bought something smaller than before" she said to my 2 year old daughter. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2248 Registered: Jan-05 | Hmmm... subs dont timber match..... They either do the job well, or they dont. They can only timbre match if they're playing in the same frequency range as the fronts/center...etc..etc. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 389 Registered: Jul-04 | Paul, yes I have heard that. So, I said "like a timbre that was significantly different from the speakers. I guess it is just the quality of the Hsu ..." Which is just a guess. Probably anyone here could explain to me better what I was hearing, I was just trying to explain with whatever audio concepts I could dredge up from my memory. Does this make sense? On the other hand - both my subs DO play some of the same frequencies as my M22s. Say 60 or 70 Hz up to 100Hz or so. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 390 Registered: Jul-04 | Oh, and I appreciate your overlooking the last part of my post!! At least for the moment anyway! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 473 Registered: May-05 | Don, Hey, that's great that you're enjoying the STF-1 and that it is a step up from the Velodyne. As you know, I have an older M&K dual 12" and it does closely resemble the finish on the Ascends. But, it provides some very serious base when called upon. As for "like timbre matching", I think I understand what you're saying. Some subs and speakers get along better than others. With Tim's Lings, I have to modulate my sub and lower it just a shade to get about the same bass response as with the Ascends and, even then, I just felt like the Ascends and the M&K mated better for HT. ENJOY mucho. Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: DonaldekellyWashington, DC Usa Post Number: 396 Registered: Jul-04 | thanks, Dave |
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