Denon 5803 vs. Separates vs. ????
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page| Thread | Last Poster | Posts | Last Post | |
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| Archive through August 10, 2005 | Tawaun A.Williams | 100 |
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Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 24 Registered: Jul-05 | I agree, Of the three options I mentioned before the third is definetly what I would do. Pre Amp + Power Amp (Or monoblocks) and use your Denon for movies only. The C-272 was just an option, I never intended to say that that was the only way to go. Good luck |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 696 Registered: Dec-03 | Much depends on your room size and the speakers you have. You have Ascend small bookshelf speakers and already own a Denon 3803, other than a few new features on the 5803, I can't think of any reason to upgrade your receiver. The power envelope on the 3803 is more than enough to drive your Ascend's without clipping (except maybe under the most extraordinary circumstances). If you want an upgrade that makes sense speakers would be the way to go. But if you have a fairly small room the Ascend's are hard to beat at the price. Get a good self-powered subwoofer (such as a HSU or an Outlaw--Outlaw just released a new less expensive subwoofer--the more expensive one is $549 the new one is around $300 and both companies allow you a 30 day trial. This will allow you to blast your Ascend's as loud as they (or you) can take it while the subwoofer will power itself--not draining the receiver of any power. But if you really want a readily noticeable sonic upgrade--think about more expensive speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1499 Registered: Mar-05 | Dakulis, you might want to read this little thread, one guy finds the pure digital Panny sa-xr55 keepin up with his HK 7200, a flagship $2000 AVR: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=11426#post11426 I've read similar things on other threads on the avsforum.com about these Pannys, am itching to try one out myself. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4972 Registered: May-04 | Let me briefly interject; depending on the qualities you seek from your music and system's reproduction of it, you will never acieve the same level of performance as long as there is that big box called a TV sitting between the speakers and speaker positions are compromised to suit that situation. A modest dedicated two channel system out does a combination HT/MC system in pretty much every fashion I consider important in this hobby. Even if it comes down to a small system that has the speakers set back against the wall until needed, my input here would be consider a small system of separates physically separated from your HT system. Rick Barnes was very happy with a small tube integrated amp and some Spendor 3/5's. My system uses the LS3/5a's to achieve excellent results. The second system need not require much room, just the ability to transform the room into a performance space. This will give you some ability to listen to what you want whenever you want to listen and not have to be concerned that someone else in the family can't operate the multipurpose HT system if you have neglected to move a switch or cable back in place. That my $0.02 worth. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 389 Registered: May-05 | Geez guys, really great advice and I think that you may have just convinced me to do something completely different. I was going to use my old AVR receiver, a Denon AVR 2500 as a stand alone 2 channel downstairs with my old JVC DVD player. But, if I put the JVC back into use in my HT setup, this would free up the Denon 2200 to go downstairs. Then, I could sell the old AVR and HT speakers on eBay, probably for just a couple or three hundred dollars. BUT, that should be enough to get a pre-amp (or would i need one with the bass controls, etc. in the Denon?) and I could use another $800 to $1000 or so to get a decent amp. Then, I could pay another $500 to $700 for a decent pair of speakers, maybe another set of Ascends (340s? so if I ever decide to go to 7.1 channel, they would timbre match and then I could upgrade to better speakers for music downstairs?), and I'd have a dedicated 2 channel music system downstairs and my HT system would still work great upstairs. (Yes, I noticed a substantial improvement in sound with Denon 2200 on HT but very little video improvement and I think I'd be willing to give that up for better music downstairs.) I'll have to give this some more thought. I really was looking for a simple solution BUT you guys are not into simple, I've discovered. Appreciate everyones' 2 cents worth BTW. Thanks, Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1469 Registered: Feb-05 | I agree with Jan whole heartedly. Unfortunately some of us are social workers with 1080 sq ft homes and absolutely no extra room. I have combined my systems out of necessity. When I have a second home theater it will be in my 12x13 master bedroom and be for listening to movies in bed on those rare occasions. I compensate for having the tv between the speakers by having the speakers pulled out far enough that the face of the speakers are about 10 inches further out than the face of the tv. Works very nicely. If you have the space a dedicated 2 channel listening room is a must for any serious audiophile. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1197 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm lucky and my speakers are designed to go straight into corners, and not pulled out into the room. :-) They work great for both music and HT. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 619 Registered: Jun-05 | Good point Jan,that TV will be in the way.Me personally I believe in total seperation for both systems and different rooms and especially speakers.But in Davids case he needs convienience{for his lovely wife HA Ha}so i can understand his want to combine the 2.Just joking Dave I had to get that one in. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 397 Registered: May-05 | Thanks T-Man, Just wait until your lovely wife starts making demands, then I'll be laughing. "No way Tawaun, we're done, 75 pairs of speakers is 74 too many, you take those back right now." LOL |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 645 Registered: Jun-05 | She already does but she knows audio was in my life before she was, so she just has to deal with it but shes really good at accepting her roll.Hey Dave thats the only way I can have a wife,Ive got three things im always gonna be into Cars ,Motorcycles,and Audio is a no brainer its my career,so te be Ts wife you have to accept thoses three things,but boy am I glad she Did,because thats my baby. |
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Anonymous | 'A modest dedicated two channel system out does a combination HT/MC system in pretty much every fashion I consider important in this hobby.' "That my $0.02 worth." And that's about all it was worth Mr Vigne. My HT/MC system kills all the modest dedicated 2 channel systems my friends own. Maybe you should replace 'modest' with 'high quality' or maybe 'audiophile' and give people some value for your 2 cents. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5000 Registered: May-04 | Well, anon, why don't you define for everyone here exactly what "high quality" and, especially, "audiophile" represent. Otherwise your opinion is worth less than $0.005. And, by the way, bully for your "audiophile" HT/MC system. Maybe your friends should just come over and listen to you bloviate. |
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Anonymous | Frankly, I think you do enough 'bloviating' without me or anyone else needing to follow your lead Mr Vigne. I certainly don't believe my system is the be all and end all Mr Vigne, but the fact remains there are many audio professionals (some perhaps with maybe more knowledge than yourself - if that were possible) that have reviewed many quality A/V receivers in recent times that perform extremely well in the two channel world. I stand by my disagreement with your comment and suggest that the word 'modest' was not a good choice. You don't take disagreement very well, do you Mr Vigne? Funny how you often have a barb or two ready to inflict upon others with whom you disagree! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5005 Registered: May-04 | " ... some perhaps with maybe more knowledge than yourself - if that were possible)" Thank you. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5006 Registered: May-04 | Now, do you want to define for everyone here exactly what "high quality" and, especially, "audiophile" represent? If not, your remarks aren't worth much. |
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Anonymous | No, I do not wish to define those words - I think most would have a reasonable idea of their meaning. Also, I agree my remarks were not worth much, but I felt compelled to throw them in against a remark that wasn't worth the advertised two cents. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5016 Registered: May-04 | At least the price of admission was reasonable. |
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Another Anonymous Unregistered guest | The previous "anonymous" Posted a while back as "Diana Krall" Gotcha !  |
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Anonymous | Very reasonable and so was the argument - futile as it was and as they usually are on this forum. Congrats for maintaining civility. I do hope you appreciate that I was only having a little bit of fun at your expense (a whole two cents worth) with my rant because I do know from where you come - all those millions of years ago. Now, was that the sound of a penny dropping? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5023 Registered: May-04 | I came from my mammy. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 425 Registered: May-05 | OK, I've been talking to a guy at Saturday Audio and he recommended a set of NAD separates, the T163 and T973. (The T973 is a 5 channel amp). He suggested that I consider using them instead of the Denon 3803 and he believes that I will have equal or better HT with this set-up and much better musicality out of the NADs for 2 and 2.1 channel CDs and 5.1 SACD/DVD-A listening. What say y'all with the brains and experience? He's willing to take the Denon in trade and ship the NADs before I ship back the Denon. Sounds pretty darn fair to me BUT not if it won't help the sound. Obviously, I haven't heard this combo at all, no less in my home. So, I'm relying somewhat on you folks that may have heard them or know more about the NAD separates than I do. (The link below will get you to the NAD deal.) Thanks, Dave. http://www.saturdayaudio.com/index.html |
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MTGG Unregistered guest | Dakulis That sounds like a good plan. The Nad separates should be much better for music than the Denon IMHO. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 426 Registered: May-05 | MTGG, Thanks for the support. Now, will it also perform adequately on the HT circuit, where the Denon has really helped my previous system. BTW, most of the folks know my set-up but for those who don't it's in my profile and updated. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 264 Registered: Apr-05 | Dave this is quite an upgrade to the 5803. You are not really comparing apples and apples. I would go with this in a hearbeat if I had the money. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 427 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Stof, That's always the rub, no. It appears to be a considerable upgrade and, possibly outside my budget. As you know, I was thinking $1000 to $1500 and sell the Denon, if I went this route. I'm just wondering if I should slow down. If I spend $2400 plus shipping on the separates and the CBM 170s don't sound any better, I'm out a bunch of dough and I haven't really gotten any closer to audio nirvana. I know that Edster did something similar but I believe he separated his systems and I will still be doubling the system for music and HT. I PMed Art to get his thoughts and so I'm not doing anything until I hear more from Art and Edster as well. But, I appreciate the fact that you have weighed in and agree it's a worthwhile upgrade. Dang, I wish I had even one decent store here where I could here equipment grouped with comparable speakers so I knew whether I was getting anywhere before I spent a bunch of money. I'M SO CONFUSED!!! |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 265 Registered: Apr-05 | What is he giving you for a trade-in for the 3803? Can't you keep both for to test out and send back the NAD's in case you don't hear the difference? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 428 Registered: May-05 | Stof, I'm working on the whole test and return concept but he's closing these out and he's shipping from Indiana. BUT, I've asked the question of what I'd back if I shipped it back, so we'll see what he says. Right now, he's talking about $300 for the Denon. That's less than it's worth but we haven't really negotiated either. |
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Silver Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 266 Registered: Apr-05 | Well that's his business where he sends it from, but it shouldn't affect your needs. They are only closing the Evanston store. The Chicago store is still open. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 432 Registered: May-05 | Ah, I really should read more, I didn't realize they had a Chicago store. That may help since they'll still have a retail outlet. BUT, I think they must have gone home for the evening because my emails are still unanswered. So, we'll see what he says when we get there. And, I'll see what the lovely wife says when I get home. (Actually, I already know what she's going to say. "You said $2000 dollars and you've already spent $1800 and now you want to take a loss on the receiver, which I really like, and spend another $2000. NO WAY!!)" Geez, I bet you've never heard something like that before, huh? LOL |
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MTGG Unregistered guest | Dak, It's obvious that music and HT are important you and I believe the Nad separates would be that much better than the Denon (for music) and that the extra money spent will be beneficial in the long run. As a very satisfied universal Denon player owner I am not against Denon except that musically, their receivers are not up to the standard of NAD or even Marantz for that matter (IMHO of course). For HT the Denon is good, but so too are the others. My advice - bite the bullet, buy Mrs Dak something nice and then surprise her with the NAD. Remember, these things can blow the clothes off a woman's body (The Italian Job) so the benefits might not be just for music and movies. LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 436 Registered: May-05 | MTGG, I've got the Denon 2200 and I certainly agree that Denon does many things well. I'd love to bite the bullet, I'm just afraid that Mrs. K might take something else off, first. (Saw it and I always wondered if the right system could do that.) |
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MTGG Unregistered guest | (Saw it and I always wondered if the right system could do that.) If only! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1628 Registered: Mar-05 | Dakulish, If you're upgrading to the NAD 5.1 separates just to get better music than I think you could easily spend $400 for the NAD c320bee or $700 for the NAD c372 and achieve the same result. Or $1200 for a NAD c162 + NAD c272 for optimal 2-channel sound. Either way your wife gets to keep the Denon that she's grown so fond of and you get killer music performance. Multichannel NAD owners like Art usually swear that you also get a significant boost in HT performance too but I personally have a hard time believing that it would be enough to justify the cost---I don't watch movies to hear explosions and rumbles duplicated PERFECTLY nor do I particularly care if a movie's orchestral soundtrack is imperfectly rendered...I watch a movie for the characters, plot, dialogue and subtext, the audio half of it is just background as far as I'm concerned so long as I have a receiver that supplies adequate power into all channels as opposed to say an HTIB P.O.S.---which like I said even the $300 Onkyo 601 that I traded in could do very easily. > I know that Edster did something similar but I believe he separated his systems Actually I did not separate them, they're both in the same room and sharing the same mains. When I'm watching a movie, the L/R signal goes from my DVD player to my Marantz then through its preouts to my NAD amp and then to my mains. When I listen to music, I turn off the Marantz completely and play my CD player directly connected to my NAD preamp to the NAD amp and out to the mains. In your case, you could just run a digital coax between your Denon 2900 to your Denon receiver for movies and run an analog cable from the 2900 to the NAD c272 for music. Better yet, I'd just buy the NAD c320bee ($400) plus a Marantz cc4300 CD carousel ($250 new, $130 refurb) plus a pair of the Lings ($300) and set up a dedicated music system in a different room for a VERY different musical experience from the Ascends whenever you're in the mood for it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1629 Registered: Mar-05 | Just my priorities I guess: HT sound to me just needs to not sound BAD on my system, it's music that I want to have sound GREAT to the best of my budget. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 750 Registered: Jun-05 | I think its a good deal Dave considering you have to merge the 2,It will be leagues ahead of the 5803 in stereo and a little better in H/T and really noticeable in multichannel music,Id give you the thumbs up on that. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 437 Registered: May-05 | Edster and T-Man, I've read the only two reviews available on these separates and they're less than helpful for a number of reasons. No real comparison of the these components to others, little mention of how accurately, beautifully, engagingly (?) or any other way that they render music. Mostly about bells and whistles, technical goodies and such. Not real helpful to know what they might do for sound. Edster, I agree on HT, and frankly, the two Denons have made HT very good and the sound quality is absolutely fine. I agree that I'm not really looking for an improvement in audio or video on HT. As usual Ed, you put forth a new and fairly compeliing solution. Geez, T-Man, didn't you start this way back when with the old c320bee solution. If it's good as you guys say, maybe such a dedicated system is the way to go after all. (I see Mrs. K going for $830 over $2100 plus shipping anyway.) So, what say you T and Edster and anyone else that wants to weigh in? (That solution would certainly cover the fact that I'm missing the Lings a little.) Also, I suspect that I could sell my old AVR2500 and my old surround sound system for something approaching $300-$500 so it would only be about $500 out of pocket plus connections and cables and I've already got a set of unused SACD/DVD-A cables and a bunch of left over monster speaker cable. So, that's an option to consider. (As I was writing and started to discuss this with my lovely wife, my lovely daughter called. She just returned to college on Monday and she called to let us know that she needs $340 bucks for rent and $300 for books and my son needed $150 for books, at least he buys used. Does anybody see Edster's solution just being tossed aside on my daughter's and son's college expenses? Does this woman have no priorities or what?) Well, the best laid plans, etc. etc. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1634 Registered: Mar-05 | David, At the very least I think no matter what your kids or wife throw at you if you are itching to try something different you can certainly afford $250 for a Panasonic sa-xr55 pure digital and test it out for both HT and music, and pay about $10 to ship it back if you don't like it. When I read of people getting rid of thousand dollar separates for these dirt-cheap pure digitals it definitely gets my curiousity! C'mon, be an Ecoustics guinea pig again, you were wonderful with the Lings! :- ) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 441 Registered: May-05 | OK Edster, and that would solve my problem how? I use it in combo instead of the Denon? And it supposedly gives me the same music quality, or close, to separates and better than the Denon. If that's true, wouldn't everyone already have one of these puppies. Now, I haven't heard it. But, it sounds like the proverbial snake oil salesman approach. Come up with something new, sell it to the gullible and they'll sell the next couple of thousand for you. Cognitive Dissonance - once I buy it, it's the best thing since sliced bread and everyone must have one, too. That justifies the initial purchase. I think I'll let someone else be the guinea pig on this one, unless panny wants to send me one to test and pays the shipping, at least one way, a la our good friend and speaker maestro, Tim. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 752 Registered: Jun-05 | Edster you are starting to make me curious about that digital Panny,the Lings look like they may be added to my collection,I know David is waiting on the Emmas,you should build you a dedicated 2 channel system David,hey the wife would just have to accomidate it you deserve that every man does. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 442 Registered: May-05 | OK, Edster, I think we've got the guinea pig, right T-Man? In fact, if you time it right, you get the digital Panny and play the Lings on it and we get a two-fer. Yeah, I'd be up for that and you probably can find the Panny in Dayton and not have to worry about shipping or anything. That might be very interesting, especially since you could check out the Panny with a bunch of different speakers. GO FOR IT, T. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1639 Registered: Mar-05 | > OK Edster, and that would solve my problem how? I use it in combo instead of the Denon? Here's the wild card: it MIGHT (and I stress "MIGHT") replace your Denon *and* banish all thoughts of *any* future NAD upgrades! > If that's true, wouldn't everyone already have one of these puppies. Actually no. It's very hard to find a place locally to demo these things, other than Fry's but they don't have it in one of their demo rooms just on a lousy shelf hooked up to KLH speakers and not even a CD player. So the vast majority of audio folks who dismiss them have NEVER actually heard them themselves, they have too much emotional as well as financial investment in the "you get what you pay for" mantra that keeps the higher end audio industry in business. I totally respect audio folk who HAVE heard them and didn't like them, but I've read of far too many who were hooked once they had a listen. Also you are assuming far too much intelligence on the part of the consumer public. A very simple rebuttal is the huge commercial success of Bose and Bose apologists saying "if Bose were so bad why does it outsell its competition so massively?" > it sounds like the proverbial snake oil salesman approach. Come up with something new, sell it to the gullible and they'll sell the next couple of thousand for you. I wouldn't be surprised if this is how CDs were first regarded by the audiophile subculture when they first came out, the pure digitals at least on paper are the power source equivalent of a seismic technological shift like that which occurred when most of us went from LPs/casettes to CDs. Anyways, if you have an hour or two to spare I'd recommend browsing through these threads: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=417894 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=530504 http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1251&page=1&p p=10 I haven't heard the Pannys myself but did hear the hybrid-digital JVC RX-F10 which was extremely impressive at just $200. If I were buying an HT-only receiver today I really doubt I'd be willing to pay more for analog and possibly even ditto for music. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1640 Registered: Mar-05 | Tawaun, I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on them, though I suspect that if you are a "warm" music lover they might not be your cup of tea as opposed to a more detail-focused listener. But paired witha speaker like the Lings they just might create a nearly perfect equilibrium. My wife's gonna be gone for the next 3 weeks, I'm sorely tempted to order one to test out myself! : ) |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 753 Registered: Jun-05 | I dont know about music it would really have to impress me,but Odyssey is coming out with a digital amp,and I know Klaus wouldnt do it if it wasnt good,David that may very well be a good idea,I'll have to see how my money is,because I was gonna get my preamp and Amp around when the lings arrived,but ill see I will do some digging and read thru these posts Eddie brought out and I will call my friend in California,he just got back from the Rocky Mountains show. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2101 Registered: Jan-05 | LOL.....hilarious..... Eddie recommending $400 components to someone in the market for a $5000 denon. hahahahahahahah |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 757 Registered: Jun-05 | Well always remember Eddie system synergy and a warm sound doesent have to mean less detail or attack on transits or muted dynamics or muddy bass.A sound that can be warm and give you everything is magic,the Epihponys do all of this they are so addicting I try not to listen to them as often as I want to,they make you get lost,thats probably one of the things or problems you are having with your Ascends their not capturing your emotions,Eddie I know you love them but if you cant get lost in them they are not the speaker for you no pun intended. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1647 Registered: Mar-05 | Sigh...if only I had your audio budget and mellow wife, Tawaun! : ) Guys like you and Art lead a charmed life... In the meantime the Ascends do play about 70% of my music very well and do HT flawlessly, so yeah you're right that a separate 2-channel setup with something like the Lings is probably the way for me to go too. The one part of Jan's review that really puzzled me was that he liked the Lings for HT too. As much as I enjoyed them for certain types of music, for HT in my opinion they'd be simply appalling compared to a detailed speaker like the Ascends. I'm afraid to even ask you how much those Epiphonys cost, but I'll ask you anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1648 Registered: Mar-05 | > LOL.....hilarious..... Eddie recommending $400 components to someone in the market for a $5000 denon. Geez Paul, we know from your SPL thread that you have a hard time *writing* in simple English but now I have to wonder if you can even *READ* simple English! The Panny sa-xr55 that I've been recommending to David are not $400 but $250...are you having another slap-happy evening here or what? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2111 Registered: Jan-05 | You didnt answer the question...... Why on earth would you recomend a cheap entry level hunk of junk to someone in the market for a $5000 receiver?? If someone were in the market for a Corvette, would you 'dumbly' announce the benenfits and sportieness of a Ford Focus as an alternative recommendation??? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1652 Registered: Mar-05 | For the same reason that you decided to keep your CVs after listening to some what, $5000 speakers. Despite what many marketing departments would have us believe, exponential increases in price usually do not result in exponential increases in performance, just in exponential increases in ego. In this case the $400 NAD (and probably the $250 digital Panny) would equal if not far surpass the Denon for 2-channel music performance...something that you have about as much of a clue about as Michael Jackson has about muff-diving. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2114 Registered: Jan-05 | ME:Hey everybody. Im in the market for a premium sub and plan to spend up tp around $5,000. Does anybody have a quality recommendation to make?? EDDIE:Hey Paul, I have a 10" dayton sub, and I recommend you buy one of those because it sounds greaaaaaat!!! The best part is that you can get a refurbed model off ebay for only $50. Give it a try, and you wont regret!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1656 Registered: Mar-05 | if the Dayton come close to, equals, or outperforms the $5K sub then why spend an extra $4850? (note the "if") DUH!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5330 Registered: May-04 | How much do you think the drivers in your CV's actually cost? $30? $42.50? If you think more than that, ... aww, you know what I'm going to say; don't you, Paul? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 444 Registered: May-05 | Guys, I appreciate the suggestions. I'm going to mull this over and do some reading, yeah, even about the Panasonic. But Ed, Tim's Lings were something completely different since I was already auditioning speakers in that price range and his Lings looked very interesting. As I said above, the Denon does HT very well so the Panasonic doesn't really provide any "juice" for HT for me. I'd spend $250 to probably equal, if that, my current HT performance. I just can't imagine it being anywhere near as musical as even the Denon but I'll read some of the threads Ed cited, for sure. As for Paul's comments, once again Paul we go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the thread, although I understand your sentiment somewhat. But, we end up with a bunch of posts off topic. Guys, I've got to get back to making a living and I'll check in occasionally when something fun is being discussed. Muchas gracias for all the help, though. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2115 Registered: Jan-05 | Only someone a little bit "S l o w" would recommend a bottom-of-the-line component to someone ready to pull the trigger on a $5,000 receiver. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 448 Registered: May-05 | Paul, Yes, the 5803 was $4800 or so when new. Now, they're selling for between $1500 and $1900 and it looked like I might get a decent deal at around $1250 to $1400 on it. So, I wouldn't say I was willing to pull the trigger on a $5000 receiver. However, both the separates I found and Ed's suggestion on the NAD c320bee and additional components are more in the ball park of what I was willing to spend, although the NAD separates are a stretch unless I sell off all my old equipment and sell a NIB Omega watch I've been holding onto for a couple of years. (The wife is coming around if I can get the out of pocket down around $1000 or so and I might get close to that if I sell all these items.) Anyway, my point is $5000 NO WAY! Now boys, I've got to earn some money, sell some things and see where it all comes down. Then, I'll take a look at the various options, again. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1657 Registered: Mar-05 | > Only someone a little bit "S l o w" would recommend a bottom-of-the-line component to someone ready to pull the trigger on a $5,000 receiver. Not nearly as "slow" as someone who'd automatically assume that a $5000 receiver HAS TO sound much better than a $400 one especially when they haven't listened to either one. Sounds like a Bose customer to me. Oh that's right Paul, you're a Bose customer yourself, no? Figures! ROTFLMAO... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1658 Registered: Mar-05 | > I'd spend $250 to probably equal, if that, my current HT performance. If the $250 Panny comes very close, "equals" or surpasses your Denon in HT then I'd say you stand to make a pretty penny reselling the Denon and pocketing the difference. The tantalizing possibility here is that the Panny might also surpass the Denon in 2-channel music, and even equal or surpass the NADs in that department too...THAT's what I think is worth taking a $10 (return shipping fee) risk to find out. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2121 Registered: Jan-05 | Only eddie would compare one of his cheap little 20lb lightweights to a massive heavyweight like the 5803. It's like apples to oranges and way out of his league. Dak, I'll tell you what, if I had known that I could have picked up one of those monsters or the z9 for under $2k, I probably would have. For my uses though, no receiver is worth 5k to me. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1659 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL, enjoy your little Boses, Paul! My cheeks hurt from laughing so much... |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 449 Registered: May-05 | Paul, Go on eBay, look under receivers, "Denon" and do a search for the 5803. You'll find Dakmart, an authorized reseller selling these and they've been going for under $2000 recently. They are B stock and come with Dakmart's 1 year warranty. Go for it big fella. Also, Ubid had 10 or so of these about 3 months ago and they all sold for under $2000. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 450 Registered: May-05 | Paul, Even a better deal, the 5803 and DVD 9000, also THX certified, for under $2000 and there's no bids yet and only a day left. Now, you've really got to go for it. http://cgi.ebay.com/Denon-AVR-5803-7-1-THX-Ultra-2-DVD-9000-combo_W0QQitemZ58008 54879QQcategoryZ39793QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Let me know how that combo sounds with those CVs and that honkin' sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5341 Registered: May-04 | " For my uses though, no receiver is worth 5k to me." Oh, jeez, oh, lord, oh my god, ..... That was so good stuff came out of my nose. ohjeez oh, wait, there's a "k" behind that 5! That's even better, oh good lord ... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1662 Registered: Mar-05 | > Only eddie would compare one of his cheap little 20lb lightweights to a massive heavyweight like the 5803. hey Paul, how much does your wife weigh? OMG now even my stomach hurts from all this laughing... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 763 Registered: Jun-05 | Paul...Paul the laughter on you goes up by the second,you know it really is true you are what you are and thats a Bose owner and the most pathetic ones they make on top of all that, need I say more. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1346 Registered: Feb-04 | You all know this... but just in case. If you get the Panny, don't get a dedicated CD player to run through analog inputs! You only get the advantage using digital signals. Keep your cheap DVD player as transport and feed the digital signal to the Panny. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 769 Registered: Jun-05 | Eddie excellent point if the Panny is gonna make that kind of difference in 2 channel that may just be the audio deal of a life time and well worth it.From what i gather David really isnt looking for huge H/T boost the main target is stereo and if it can had at those prices and factoring in the lings and possibly the Emmas it would be a astounding deal,David you need to go out and buy the Wifey some roses and to dinner and then finish up with you know what(im laughung but serious}.Eddie the Opiphonys are $595 a pair in your choice of about 5 finishes and they are internet dirrect of course,which you are know stranger to and 30 day moneyback policy and lifetime trade up policy with full value,hey the best deals on the planet you cant beat that.As for shipping cost I would talk to Klaus about that,he is in Indianapolis so it was only a 100 mile drive for me,and man thats another advantage for me (Aw man im in heaven).Eddie and get this they are no lightweights they weigh 18 pounds a piece man if some other company was selling them they would be $1200 to $2000 a pair.The soundstage is the best I have ever heard i kid you not and ive heard speakers that cost $80,000,I know thats a huge statement but I trully stand by it.Then theirs the bass its so pure and unexagerrated and quick,the midrange and topend so sweet and detailed,and above all else they so so musical and engaging.Not to mention the Amps and preamps with a 20 year warranty,and they blow everything in their pricerange and far above to,and upgrades to the amps and preamps to attempt to blast anything away,just unbeatable(I know im blabbing Eddie but I cant help it}.The only draw back is the speakers and the Amps and preaamps have very long breakin period,but its well worth it,Eddie get on this boat and ride it to Hawaii!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1673 Registered: Mar-05 | Well I finally got sick of waiting for someone else to be the guinea pig so I've just ordered the Panny from amazon.com, $250 with 2nd day air so hopefully by Monday I'll start burning one in and have something to report by Wednesday or Thursday! Actually with my placement results tonight I'm thinking of just holding off on the Hsu subwoofer and ordering the Marantz 4300 to combine with the Panny in a 2-channel system, for now I'll have to make do with the Mordaunt Short MS05s that I've been using as HT surrounds...I do have a pair of lousy Polk R20s that I was planning on eBaying but will see if the Panny can make them at least a little decent. Tawaun those Epiphonys sound dangerous, if they're as awesome as you say I'm sure I'd hang on to them and that'd double my 2nd-room speaker budget and the wife will have my head on a platter when she gets back, LOL. BTW why are the Epiphonys' front side slanted like that? Just for looks or is there some accoustic advantage in it? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 774 Registered: Jun-05 | Its time alligned like Thiels and Vandersteen,once you listen to a time alligned speaker its Quite addicting.It means the drivers all hit you at the same time.See in a normal conventinal boxed speaker the tweater reaches your ear first thats why you can move your head around in different positions and it sounds different either more bright or more dull or even worse you can hear the drivers working.a time alligned speaker also images better and dissapears,you have a broader sweetspot,and dont have to have your head in a vice.Some speakers are naturally time alligned like electrostatics,Ohms,Dual concentrics,single driver speakers like Tims other speakers all of these types excell at cohearence,a word thats loosely used by the way.So you've been to the Odyssey website,then you already know what my ultimate speaker will be?So you took that plunge on the Panny I cant wait to hear the reviews on it from you,now if this goes like we are hoping it does all you are gonna need is a good CD player and some awsome speakers,maybe Tim will let you audition the Lings again,or you take the plunge for the Epiphonys or the Emmas,boy a new ball game now huhh?I knew you were gonna get the Panny,you are just like me when talk about a piece of gear that impresses you, you will go out and get it,I see im not the only one that likes to splurge on something thats worth it |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1675 Registered: Mar-05 | heh well the Panny's just $230 and I have 30 days to return it, the $30 shipping costs I look at as an audition fee. Also ordered the Marantz cc4300, $142 shipped from accessories4less.com with 1 year Marantz refurb warranty. LOL, know anybody who wants to buy a state of the art Sony minisystem with world-class Rolls Royce subwoofer? (see below) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001LCZZQ |
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Anonnnn Unregistered guest | Man edster, you are building quite a sytem right there ! lol |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3551 Registered: Dec-03 | That game sync feature is rather interesting. You could actually mix your own music with the soound effects on the game itself? At least that is how I interpret it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1676 Registered: Mar-05 | Berny, I have no idea since I'm not a gamer...bought the darn thing years ago as a quick and cheap bedroom system, certainly got what I paid for. The fixed-gain subwoofer is front ported and sounds ok with a sock stuffed into the port, lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3557 Registered: Dec-03 | OIC. I was thinking of getting one for my kids. |
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New member Username: SgillPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | Can anyone make suggestions on seperates for around $2500. |
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Anonnnn Unregistered guest | Yes, I suggest you go out there, do some auditioning and decide what you want according to your tastes. Then buy something worth $2500.00 |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3560 Registered: Dec-03 | Shehzad, I highly recommend these http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/990.html with this http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/770.html Should cost you around $2498. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2131 Registered: Jan-05 | Plus, ya gotta love the name "Outlaw". Whoah, I'll bet that amp is wicked!!!! Wow, thats serious power. |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 121 Registered: Jun-05 | And if you're only running a 5.1 system, the 5-channel 755 is an even bigger bargain. Same "serious" power as the 770, just 2 fewer channels. |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3566 Registered: Dec-03 | I love them Outlaws. The 7100 alone is a beast and rated conservatively, which I used for a while and lately I have been playing with the 200 M-blocks. I got a great deal on 7 of them plus free shipping. That was a Xmas present for my self |
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Silver Member Username: ZiggyzoggyoioiOutside Philadelphia, PA Post Number: 122 Registered: Jun-05 | I'll probably add 2 of the M-blocks when I go to 7.1 in the basement... it's all wired up, just don't have the cash (or the need, really) for 2 more BPX's. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1677 Registered: Mar-05 | Berny, how do the Outlaws compare with other amps and separates in the same price range such as NAD, Arcam, or Rotel? I love how those M-blocks look though. Almost bought their subwoofer a few months ago when it was B-stocked at $400, kicking myself for that. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2142 Registered: Jan-05 | Im sure it probably would blow NAD, Arcam, and Rotel out of the water. I mean c'mon.... What doesnt? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5353 Registered: May-04 | Your stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2149 Registered: Jan-05 | yep, It would even blow my receiver out of the water. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1351 Registered: Feb-04 | He means your stuff doesn't blow NAD, Arcam, and Rotel out of the water. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 2152 Registered: Jan-05 | Would you be talking about that $5 25watt NAD, or one within the same class? I guess Arcam isnt all bad if you dont mind owning a receiver that looks like a toaster, and has about as many features and abilities. That's definitely one for those who prefer vanilla(cant do)components. |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3567 Registered: Dec-03 | Edster, The only thing that NAD has to offer in their line-up was the T973, which I compared to the 7100. Probably not a fair comparison as the NAD is beastlier than the Outlaw. I matched it some Axiom M60 and Athena ASF-2. I checked it out in stereo using a Carver HR-722 receiver ( yeah, I know those are 7 channel amps). I tried hard to perceive a sound difference but I couldn't, must be the Carver after all it is the one feeding the information to the amps. I also used a Kenwood KRF-X9070D (please hold your comments )for the 7 channel eval. Again, no perceivable difference, but my wife and kids seem to prefer the sound coming from the Outlaws. They seem to have the champagne ears and I have rotgut hearing. As far as the mono-blocks, I bought them blind after loving the 7100...the only thing I saw from Arcam was the P1 and it was too much money, I did not even bother. I couldn't get hold of any Rotels so I can't make a comment on those. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1683 Registered: Mar-05 | Berny, so how'd the monoblocks compare to the 7100? > my wife and kids seem to prefer the sound coming from the Outlaws. They seem to have the champagne ears and I have rotgut hearing. Unless they are simply like Paul, they just dig the name! (No insult intended for your wife and kids of course.) Recently it occurred to me that I'm probably pickier about fine beer than I am about audio, beyond mid-fi. LOL, my wife who doesn't particularly care about audio also seems to have more sensitive hearing than I do. I haven't spent much time listening at the TRULY high end shops though, I figure why torture myself in the unlikely event that my jaw lands on the floor? I imagine it'd be like test driving a Lambourghini or Ferrari when you only have maybe $30K to spend on a sports car. |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 3568 Registered: Dec-03 | I definitely prefer the monoblocks compared to the 7100. They seem more effecient and it brings out the sound a lot more than the 7100. The bass is a lot fuller (even without the subwoofer) on the Athenas and the M80s. My wife, who is very particular about how her music sounds, love the way the mono-blocks push out the guitar strings and the violas. She claims it really "rounds out" the strings! She is actually there first in line to try out the new sound every time I fiddle around with the stereos. Her test disc would be a DVD by James Taylor - Live at the Beacon Theater. Her standard would be on how she remembers James Taylor at that particular concert. She loves the way his voice and guitar sounds so real and makes her feel like she was back in that concert. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 781 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah Paul your receiver isnt the holy grail of audio,I hope you are even bright enough to know that.And the 2 channel performance isnt in the same league as the gear listed in the last 15 posts on this thread,but hey what do you care you listen to music anyway huhh? |
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Anonymous | Dakulis: I'm a newbie here, but far from a newbie in audio/video and now HT. I would recommend exactly what I would do in your position. I'd use your Denon as a pre/pro for now and get a Parasound "New Classic" amp which can already be had for far less than retail (check Audiogon), or a similar used one. Depending on your speakers efficiency and the size of your room, you can choose between a 5 X 125wpc into 8 ohms (185 into 4) or a 5 x 250wpc into 8 ohms (385 into 4). Then I would enjoy your music and HT to the fullest until you can afford the Parasound 7100 pre/pro which I've already seen NEW at Audiogon for $2,100.00 ($900.00 off list) from an authorized dealer. Let me assure you that by merely adding the amp of your choice and needs, the difference will be far more than subtle! While I do give Denon the nod for being a lot more upfront and honest in their power ratings than most receiver makers (they rate at 20hz - 20khz with ALL channels driven, versus most manufacturers that rate at 1khz with 1 channel driven), they still cannot touch a separate power amp for reasons that have already been explained in detail on this thread. It's not just watts my friend, but current!!! I personally own Aerial 10T (Fl/FR) speakers and an Aerial CC3B center channel speaker with Energy surrounds. These (Aerial) speakers while incredible with either critical music or HT performance require serious and stable power. They are 4 ohm nominal and 3.8 ohm minimum speakers and are extremely inefficient...such is the price one must sometimes pay for incredible performance, and I can assure any and everyone that my Aerials are world class performers by anyone's standards within sane cost ($7,500 a pair with the Sound Anchor stands) levels. I have had them for many years, and I have yet to hear anything (again within sane cost) that makes me want to part with them. I have a Parasound HCA-2205A amplifier which ouputs 5 x 205 into 8 ohms with 60 amps per channel of high current. If you want, of course you can find one of these used from time to time again at Audiogon for ~$1,200.00 and of course it IMHO will also make you a very happy camper. My point is that while you could get the 5803 for ~$1,200.00, the Parasound amp alone used with your current Denon as a pre/pro will give more of an audible difference than the 5803 over your current piece...remember it's not in the volume, but the detail. When you've saved enough for the aforementioned 7100 pre/pro and purchase that, you will have a truly extraordinary 2 and multi channel system IMHO. Now, that being said I am not familiar with your speakers, and while a good separate amp will wring the absolute last drop of performance out of your speakers...NO electronics will sound better than the speakers they are played through and THAT is a fact. You will also have electronics that will not become outdated for many many years, and are also capable of driving virtually any speaker you may now or ever think of buying without having to hesitate for a second to wonder whether or not your system can drive them in regards to "load". This is not an inexpensive hobby you have chosen, but it is a great one, and as you have seen there are many differing opinions, and I'm sure I'll hear enough opposing ones to mine. My point is that if you do things in stages as you can afford to instead of trying to achieve "overnight Nirvana" you will be better off in the long run. Yes, absolutely it requires patience, but I truly believe that it will be patience well rewarded in the end. My 2 cents worth... Cheers to all and good listening. |
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New member Username: ConchyjoeCanton, GA USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | BTW, I'm the "anonymous" newbie that posted the message above. I did not intend for it to be anonymous, but first time post here...sorry. Cheers and good listening. |
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Bronze Member Username: SteelhrdPost Number: 16 Registered: Jul-05 | Heard the denon 3803 paired with a carver sunfire amp. would have to agree with conchyjoe. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 461 Registered: May-05 | ConchyJoe and Reginald, Thanks for weighing in and doing so with some thoughtfulness and experience. I have slowed down considerably. I'm doing a bunch of reading and very little listening right now. I've been looking at a Jolida 502B, a modified version. I've been reading about the Outlaws mentioned above and a NAD and Arcam. Interestingly enough, I've read a couple of articles on the Parasounds and another solid state multi-channel amp. So, I won't pull the trigger until I hear something that makes a worthwhile difference. Thanks again. |
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Bronze Member Username: FablePost Number: 32 Registered: Jun-04 | How come noone recommend B & K when they mention Arcam, Rotel and Parasound? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1389 Registered: Feb-04 | Dakulis, I really don't want to start anything here. But how balanced will your system be if you spend that much on driving $328 a pair speakers? Should you be looking at more expensive speakers if you have that kind of money to spend? Are the Ascend that good? I'm closer to the opposite end of the spectrum, driving multi-K$ Klipschorns with an h/k avr-325 receiver and a DVD player for CD playback. Just wondering... Best regards, I mean that! Peter |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1394 Registered: Feb-04 | Weird... DA's post disappeared? |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 289 Registered: Jul-05 | I have a general question on this subject. Jan has explained the various advantages of seperates already, which is quite informative, and I do thank him for that. However my issue with this thread is that a few people are suggesting some fairly powerful amplifiers for Dave, saying it is in the interest of futureproofing his system and that these amplifiers will drive the most difficult loads around. Now, Dave's speakers aren't horribly difficult to drive from the measurements that Ascend is so good to provide on their website. So unless he is going to be upgrading these anytime soon (which is entirely possible), is there a point to him obtaining these ultra powerful amplifiers that can shunt 60 amps of current into a single channel? If this is a stupid question or if it has been answered already, please excuse me. PS Peter: I wanted to edit it some more. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1395 Registered: Feb-04 | Didn't know we could edit! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5511 Registered: May-04 | "So unless he is going to be upgrading these anytime soon (which is entirely possible), is there a point to him obtaining these ultra powerful amplifiers that can shunt 60 amps of current into a single channel?" No. Not on that basis alone. Many listeners honestly feel smaller amps have better overall sound. The smaller Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Rowland Research, etc., are often the favorites for those who do not require blasting levels of sound. For one thing, the outputs are usually one pair of transistors or tubes (not considering SET's here) to get 50-60 watts p/c which have a far better chance of maintaining linearity item to item than the several pairs required to obtain high wattage and high current capability. But, that's just one reason. As with everything in audio, there are tradeoffs in each direction you turn. High wattage and high current gives a ballsy sound that is not typically found in smaller amps. But, those large amps often lack subtlety and sweetness until you are paying large amounts of dollars. And so it goes. There is no free lunch. |
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Bronze Member Username: FablePost Number: 36 Registered: Jun-04 | Peter, Dakulis has his reason to upgrade his electronics. The Ascend sound THAT good. I have listened to B&W (below $2000 model/pair) and Whaferdale at my in-laws house (we come there every single week)and even my wife says my Ascend sound better. My in-laws has Carver receiver(the old model with 110watts/front channel) and I have Harman Kardon 630. The $328/pair will become $1500 if Ascend decide to sell them through retail store. I'm grateful that I can buy them directly from the source so that I didn't have to pay for marketing and overhead. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 480 Registered: May-05 | Peter, DA, Jan and Dexter, Whoa. Just about the time, I think I've got a direction I may go, you folks through something else out there. If gas weren't so dang expensive right now, I'd take a weekend at the end of September, visit Art's 2nd favorite audio store (yeah, the one in Seattle) and listen to a bunch of different amps and speakers while allowing my wife to wander off and shop. I think until I do a bunch more listening and hear something that really blows my socks off, it's somewhat of an academic exercise to try and figure out what's best for me here. I know Jan, yes I was slow as a child, too. It only took a couple of 100 posts or so and I'm back to where I started. Now, if I can just get this watch sold and my old stuff, I'll have a few hundred bucks to blow on something. That said, it's interesting that no one weighed in on the modified Jolida 502b, although the reviews on this little puppy are pretty impressive. I know, I know, I need to go hear it first. Thanks all, Dave. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 290 Registered: Jul-05 | Question for you Dave. You have stated that you are looking for improved sound out of this upgrade. Improved in what way? What do you feel is wrong with your reciever/system now that needs to be changed? Sorry if you have answered this already, but I didn't note it while skimming through the prior posts. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 491 Registered: May-05 | D.A., As you know, and you found it, my response ended up on the SACD cable thread. Thanks for the input on that thread. You're OK, no matter what John says, LOL. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 558 Registered: May-05 | OK on the trip to SLC, Interesting trip. I found a guy in SLC that runs his business out of his home, "Aris Audio," but this is not your typical in-home shop. He has 4 rooms set up with equipment running from the Anthem amps/pre pros and B&K receivers up to Audio Research modular pre/pros and amps at $25,000 a piece driving Vandersteen 5s and some "Wilsons" that are NOT "Wilson Audios" that cost $25,000 a piece or pair - I was afraid to ask. I got to hear everything from top to bottom and he had absolutely nothing that sounded bad, even though he was still in the moving in stage and none of his rooms had been modified at all yet. PRETTY DANG IMPRESSIVE STUFF. His "mid-level" stuff was McCormacks and I didn't get to hear them but everything else was very good. Art, I heard the Anthem amp teamed up with a pair of Paradigms - I think Studiop 60s and this sounded pretty darn good with an older Diana Krall CD. I would say it was a little warmer sound that I get with Ascends. It was pretty immediate, not in your face but right there, and I had to look initially to see if there was a center channel because she was standing right in front of me and I could place the instruments on the stage. Not an incredibly deep and wide sound stage but much better than I'm getting from the Denon and Ascends right now. Unfortunately, it simply did not measure up to the Audio Research system he showed me. Audio Research modular pre/pro - $25,000, Audio Research modular multi-channel amp - $25,000, I can't remember the Universal player name but it was $13,000 and driving two Vandersteen top of the line Model 5s, I think but might might have been Model 4s. Anyway, it was about a $100,000 system with the line conditioner, connects and other doo dads. Geez Art, I expected the Paradigms to hold their own against that set-up but they just couldn't quite do it. LOL Anyway, I've heard the best and I know I can't afford that but I've got to say I would have been very happy with the Anthem/Paradigm mix I heard so I may look at buying an Anthem amp and adding it to the Denon to see how it changes my sound. Scott was very helpful and willing to work with me so I'll see what I want to do after I get the ALs are repaired and I'll listen to those with a decent tube amp. Tim, we need to talk. I talked to this guy about your speakers and he may be interested in giving them a listen. He may have some interest in having another line that would complement and sound slightly different than the sound of the Paradigms. Anyway, I mentioned your speakers but it may take some additional discussion or emails and it may work better for me to make the introduction and let you take it from there. Let's PM and talk further. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2345 Registered: Mar-05 | Dave, Don't toss the 170s yet, wait until you hear them with the Anthem amp...especially if you throw a pre-amp into that mix too. I'd be very surprised if the Denon was anywhere in the same league with good 2-channel separates. Actually I am not totally shocked that you found the Studios "warmer" than the Ascends---in fact I have never heard that adjective used to describe the Ascends, and when I was speaker shopping I probably read every single review written about the Ascends...took a darn long time! Plus of course like I said they were running off of a much better power source than your Denon at home. Lastly, the Studio 20s would be the direct counterpart to the Ascend 170s, the Studio 40s to the Ascend 340s, and the Studio 60s and 100s are one and two size categories bigger respectively. (In any AB comparison though there would need to be a subwoofer to level the playing field, especially with the 170s.) And I won't even go into the astronomical price differences... It would've been interesting if you had brought in your 170s and ABed them against the Studio 20s though. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1851 Registered: Feb-05 | I know you like your Ascends but there are better speakers out there. It's not always a matter of it being an unfair comparison. Sometimes the other speaker is just plain better. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1855 Registered: Feb-05 | "Lastly, the Studio 20s would be the direct counterpart to the Ascend 170s, the Studio 40s to the Ascend 340s" Only in size not quality. As much as I like my Paradigms I would not compare them to the Vandersteen Model 5A. I would however compare the Studio 60's to the Vandersteen 2Ce and they stack up favorably. The Vandersteen would be considered warmer sounding than the Paradigms. In fact to folks who are inexperienced around listening to high end gear most of it sounds warm. Tha Paradigm Reference Series speakers are very neutral in my opinion. They sound bright with bright electronics and warmer with higher end or tube electronics. Very few folks on this forum have more experience with these speakers than I do. I have owned the Reference Series in all of it's manifestations and listened to it with an incredible variety of electronics. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2354 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, You may indeed by correct that the Studios are better...I would certainly HOPE so, considering that they cost several times more and Paradigm is also known as a high-value manufacturer. Like I have said before, had I not gone with the Ascends I probably would've bought the Monitor 5 myself. However, the bottom line is that you have not heard the Ascends and I have not heard the Studios, and neither of us have ABed them. Until that changes the two of us can agree on probabilities but cannot claim any FACTS. The probability I most readily see is that yes, the Studios are likely "warmer" than the Ascends in character and taste. In other more conventional facets---imaging, detail, soundstage, accuracy, etc.---I would expect to hear subtle differences, but are they differences worth paying several times more for? I'd have to AB them to make a firm judgement but right now I'd say probably not...at least not for my (always tight) pocketbook. YMMV of course. : ) |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 562 Registered: May-05 | Art and Ed, The Ascends are not going anywhere. They still sound way too good in HT to be removed and I'm looking forward to the "new model" that's supposedly going to hit the market sometime next year. It should be comparable I'm told to the Studio 60s or 100s in size but about 1/2 the cost. If true, they will complete my HT by becoming my fronts and the 170s will go to backs and surrounds. We'll see though. Right now, I'm concentrating on 2 channel stereo, imaging, soundstage and, most importantly, a sound that I can fall in love with. So, the ALs will be getting reconed and "tuned up" and I'll see how they sound with a few difference tube amps and then, if necessary, I'll try them with a SS amp or sell them and continue the search for multi-channel separates that will also do good sound. The Anthem was really musical and that's probably where I'd go and match it to their pre/pro and try that out with the new Ascend set up and the larger fronts should improve the musicality of the system. Only then, if all else fails, might I look at selling off the 170s and looking at the Paradigms or something similar. They were very impressive but just not in the Vandersteens' league, but then neither is my pocketbook. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1858 Registered: Feb-05 | Art and Ed..that's funny...sound like my Dad. My brothers name is Ed. Pop's would always yell Art and Ed or Artie and Eddie knock that *&^% off. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 567 Registered: May-05 | Hey guys, Very interesting. I woke up Sunday morning after re-reading Jan's comments on his set-up of the Lings. It occurred to me that I could not easily fix the HT cabinet problem that I have but that I could try to improve it. Ed, the "doorstop" idea wasn't half bad. Instead, I used two small blocks of 2" x 4" and another "slide-shaped" block and raised the speakers off the floor of the cabinet about 1 1/2" and tilted them up towards the listening position. Also, I was able to move the speakers within the enclosure to improve the imaging. I had my wife come in to listen to Norah Jones and asked her about the location of the instruments, Norah, etc. Like me, she was able to place everything in its proper place as either stage right or stage left. When I asked her about Norah, she said it was coming from the center channel. I asked her to get up and listen to the center channel and she said, "it's not on." So, as always, I'm gaining knowledge and always learning fun things from you guys. The music is now much more open, the soundstage is broader and deeper and the imaging is, stereo imaging as it should be. But, to go back to our "Do You Listen" thread, the music just sounded a heck of lot more real and Norah's voice got a little silkier, deeper and more engaging. I'm still not sure about the whole "sandpaper" thing, T-Man but "husky and sexy", you bet. I know the sound still isn't as good as if the speaker placement was perfect but it's a darn good improvement for a zero dollar investment. Funny though, it made the music sound better but had only a marginal effect on HT sound. The interesting thing was it also improved the dynamics of the rear speakers, which I didn't touch at all. Anyone want to try and explain that one to me? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2406 Registered: Mar-05 | > Funny though, it made the music sound better but had only a marginal effect on HT sound. I think that's because HT listening is not really listening but listening-while-watching. As for improving the rear speaker dynamics, I'd think that since the multichannel experience depends on all of your speakers working together to create a whole (the digital signal is probably equalized that way), improving the crucial front mains could make the surrounds seem better. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 571 Registered: May-05 | Ed, Seems reasonable to me BUT then, what do I know? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 2420 Registered: Mar-05 | a lot more than you think, and/or are willing to admit, David. You sly lawyer you. : ) |
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