DVD-A recommendation
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New member Username: ShortySanford, Florida US Post Number: 10 Registered: Mar-04 | My system: 2 Martin Logan Odysseys 1 Martin Logan Theater i 2 Monitor Audio GR 10 surrounds 1 HSU VTR-3 subwoofer 1 Krell TAS amplifier 5ch, 400wpc, 4ohms 1 Lexicon MC-12B pre/pro 1 Scientific Atlanta 3100HD cable box 1 Monster HST 3500 power filter 1 Hitachi 50" TV Cobalt Cable speaker cables DHL XLR interconnects Ultra II MKII interconnects 1 APEX $150.00 DVD player I think you can see the problem here. The time has come to upgrade the DVD player. I'm looking for something that will do DVD and DVD-A and will be good enough to take full advantage of this system. Audio is primary importance and video second. I want to get the best I can get but I don't want to pay $16K for a player that is indistinguishable from a $2k player. Some suggestions so that I can start doing my homework will be much appreciated |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 81 Registered: Feb-04 | Check out the Denon 2900 and 5900. The 5900 has DVI. Check out this link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all It has everything you EVER wanted to know about almost every player out there. It will take a minute to load, but WELL worth the wait. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 82 Registered: Feb-04 | Be sure to surf that website, there's even more info and shootouts, if you look around. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 71 Registered: Feb-04 | AF1 I checked the link you posted and noted a section on the Marantz 8300 test. This adds to the argument against THX certifaction as was widely discussed on that other super long thread. I thought you'd be interested. "Overall, we were unimpressed with this player for video playback. There are just too many things wrong or below average in performance. That it is THX certified reduces further the credibility of THX as a certification standard." |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 83 Registered: Feb-04 | My Rantz, Hey.. at least I'm not one of those guys who only mentions, or links to, things that back up my opinions. Besides, I said throughout that thread that THX MAY OR may NOT be useful in any given piece of gear. Certainly I could come up with many pieces of gear that are THX certified and get rave reviews(Lexicon MC-8, MC-12). Just like I could also mention many THX equipped pieces of gear that suck. Still nothing to prove to me that THX is worthless across the board. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShortySanford, Florida US Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-04 | AF1 Great thread, thanks very much. I have a pretty much unlimited budget on this because budgets are against my wifes religion but the Denon 5900 seems to be beating out even the super high $$$ players. It looks like the 5900 might be the way to go. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 84 Registered: Feb-04 | Check out: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=5ce88ec0e739f24f84c41b3b7f7111 35&daysprune=2&forumid=18 They have a whole lot of 5900 reviews. Yeah, from looking at your gear I figured I was free to mention the expensive players. There are a few issues with the 2900 and 5900 that are being addresed with firmware shortly from Denon. The biggest being some macro-blocking with the 5900 due to a wrong setting somewhere in the player. Those who own the 5900 swear it's the best available, even with the issue. Let me know what you end up doing. Later. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 85 Registered: Feb-04 | Yeah, from looking at your gear I figured I was free to mention the expensive players __________________________________________________ I guess if you own the MC-12, the 5900 is pretty inexpensive actually.  Nice gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 72 Registered: Feb-04 | AF1 Yes, of course there are many audio/video THX certified components that are excellent, but that doesn't mean the certification makes them so. I just think that the quote from the people testing that particular Marantz DVD goes a long way to proving that money talks when passing THX evaluation walks! After all, they obviously seem to know what they are talking about! As for me, I don't have clue, but when I see THX certified cables something in the concept really smells. Look at the Denon DVD 2900, an excellent machine, well built and weighs a ton. Compare it with the Marantz 8400 - it has DVi and HDCD and is half the weight of the 2900. What makes it cost a grand more - surely not a DVi connection and HDCD filter? I'm not saying that THX doesn't have a place on the road to good sound, but I just wonder how sound is their certifaction and marketing practices! BTW, It looks like you have one of the best DVD players on the market with the 2900. I'm aiming for that but the 2200 might be more realistic for my wallet ($1999 and $1399 here in Aus)! |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 25 Registered: Dec-03 | Shorty, you might check this parallel thread here: www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/14955.html The Marantz DV-6400 is pretty intriguing. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 292 Registered: Dec-03 | Shorty, I wouldn't buy anything without checking out the new Elite DV-59avi. There are lots of good players out there and since your budget allows this price range [$1600 list] check it out. The Elite players are very good and can be had at good discounts. I love my DV-45. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuckeyeshinePost Number: 67 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty, Just throwing out another option as I'm not sure what your budget is, there are certainly many good options out there for $2K but I have a Denon DVD-2200 and for around $500 it's an excellent player. The MSRP is more than that but deals are out there to be had. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShortySanford, Florida US Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-04 | 1st elitefan The PE DV-59avi was my first choice because I love PE products. However, the reviews and specs I'm reading are rating the Denon 5900 as a slightly better player. Of course, the final test is in hearing and seeing but I haven't been able to find anyone who has the DV-59avi. Is it shipping yet? Even when asking about buying, everyone says that it will be 3-6 weeks before they are available. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 336 Registered: Dec-03 | I have both the Denon 2900 and the Pioneer Elite 59AVi. A neighbor of mine has the Denon 2200, which looks to me like the universal player to beat at its price point. The Pioneer 59AVi is excellent if your HDTV has DVI or HDMI, as the unit comes with an HDMI output and also has the TREX chip for upgrading standard DVD's to HDTV. The build quality (as far as heft and a sense of indestructibility) of the Pioneer isn't in the same ballpark as the Denon 2900. Then again I am not playing catch with either player, so I don't know how important that aspect is. If I were you I would get a unit that has either DVI or HDMI, as within a year or so most quality HDTV's will be equipped with HDMI. I certainly wouldn't currently buy a set without DVI or HDMI (which is why I am putting it off, as I want to have HDMI) and I would also want 2-way firewire. |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 48 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty, That's the funniest what's-wrong-with-this-picture post I've read so far on this board. The Apex has to go! In addition to the Denons mentioned above, it may be worth your while to check out the Arcam DV89 ($1599 list) and the Arcam FMJ27 ($2999 list), especially if your priority is listening to music. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShortySanford, Florida US Post Number: 13 Registered: Mar-04 | I'm a little suprised that no one has asked about my wifes religion yet. It's an ancient Hawiaian religion called "NOMOLACKANOOKIE". I believe in it too, but it can be costly. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 293 Registered: Dec-03 | I know it's hard to look into the future but the Elite 59 looks like the most future proof player today and that counts for alot IMO. The Elite, Denon and Marantz players are all very good as far as performance goes so you can't lose either way in that regard. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 86 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty, I had a good laugh at that one. I'll have to show that to my girlfriend. |
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Silver Member Username: Disco_stanMinnesota Post Number: 109 Registered: Dec-03 | Shorty have you looked into Linn. I read that they have a uni. player that can play Super Audio, DVD-a, DVD-V, CD. Im not sure how much it is, but check it out, I found a add of it in Stereophile mag. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 28 Registered: Dec-03 | Here is a review of the Denon 2900 by a user who also links to his reviews of some other units mentioned here: www.epinions.com/content_100695248516 |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 29 Registered: Dec-03 | Oh, and make sure to check out the comments to the review too. Quite a spirited discussion! |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 92 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks for the link Jonathan. Very interesting discussion. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 421 Registered: Dec-03 | All useful and informative. Thanks, guys. A question is whether to get a "hybrid" player at all. Both SACD and DVD-A badges are owned, and may be used only under licence. They both mean a real, agreed, published format, much more than "quality assurance", like THX. If you find good players with either SACD or DVD-A, but not both, which do you choose? In your enviable position, Shorty, I would add DVD-A players to the list of good recommendations here, and look seriously at the Arcam DiVA DV89 and the Meridian 800. Sorry, some defence mechanism prevents me from searching for the exact prices. You know, there is rival cult "nomolotsanookie". Its basic belief is the over-riding importance of getting the best bang for the buck. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 73 Registered: Feb-04 | John A In a perfect world, the buck gets the best bang, the best HT and a lasting relationship with both with minimum maintenance. Of course, this means having the all the right equipment! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 422 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Good on yer. Bullseye. You old rogue. But, even with the best equipment, do not begrudge a little time spent on maintenance. It can be a pleasure, not a chore, and greatly enhance the lasting relationship. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 74 Registered: Feb-04 | John A Exactly! With a little tweaking and care our receivers should perform to our satisfaction and create wonderful pleasing sounds for a long time to come. And of course, the expense of upgrading is avoided by thorough research and testing. It's a shame to see so many sending them back or swapping for simply making strange noises, but then I haven't had to put up with humming when I turn mine on! :-) |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 423 Registered: Dec-03 | Absolutely, My Rantz. When you've found one you like, take care of it, and it will last you a long time. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 76 Registered: Feb-04 | All joking aside John A, I must admit I'm one of the lucky ones with a wife who loves good sound as much as I and supports any purchase (within reason) to add to our audio/video experiences. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 427 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Me, too. We lucky few. I even read out our risqué correspondence here to my wife, and she smiled a very broad smile. I used to be pretty much on my own with my passion for stereo, but HT is a delight to the whole family. Of course, they tease me I listen to the sound quality instead of the content. Seems to me from other threads that the acid test of spouse acceptance is Magnepan louspeakers. I remember recommending "Finding Nemo" because of your location. Man, you've got to see "Master and Commander". Same hemisphere, at least...! Brilliant film; brilliant sound. Altogether awesome. My wife agrees. Crowe was at least as good as in "Gladiator". "Master and Commander" and "Lost in Translation" are recent movies we just loved. If it hadn't been for ROTK, those two would surely have picked up more Academy awards. I saw "Master and Commander" has effects (they are incredible) from Weta Workshops, too. Here's to the antipodean film industry! |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 77 Registered: Feb-04 | John A Luckily I can avoid the Magnepan temptation with our SR-7300 (6-8ohms) so I will avoid even listening to them (should the occasion arise) in case I might become disappointed with our JBL's and B&W center (though I do doubt it). I am keenly awaiting both recommended movies. We always seem to be way behind the rest of the world. Must be transport gravity problems to overcome shipping downunder. My brother, an absolute audiophile (2 channel only but after recently hearing our HT - is coming around) went to the threatre to see M & C particularly to hear the cannon FX as he read how Weir actually recorded real cannons and projectiles to get the accurate sound. So we wait with anticip . . . Captain Nemo is still on our list and I'll let you know. I also read your threads about listening to DVD-A on your non DVD-A player with DTS 96/24 but I'll need to purchase a recording on-line to try that out - still none in shops here. And thanks for the humourous banter opportunity - always good to break out now and then! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 429 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Thanks again. A real pleasure to read. You should play your brother M & C, loud, at home, and see if he still sniffs! Those amazing cannon might exactly the sort of effect that justifies a powered sub. And you real feel like you are in an1805 sailing ship with surround sound, creaking timbers and all. Lots of things to respond to. We are also a bit out of the loop as regards DVD releases. M & C came out for rental only last week. We found Nemo ahead of general release, in a shop that sells a few region 1 DVDs. We are clearly a complete backwater as regards retail DVD-A. Mercifully there are no DVD-A "regions" as far as I can tell. It was great the way Shorty set himself up with the reference to his wife's religeon. I suppose responding would have been skating on thin ice these days. From this forum, old Mammon's true believers are the ones least likely to see the funny side. There, we're back to THX-certified cables. Getting back, I was serious about the Arcam DiVA DV89 and Meridian 800. Out of my league, there it is, but they are fully compatible with Nomolackanookie. The Meridian 800 is used by Aix Records for DVD-A playback. Two Cents mentioned Aix on another thread. Interesting DVD-A only site, pretty wide musical tastes catered for, see link. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 78 Registered: Feb-04 | John A And another good chuckle - thanks. Good link! Now I know to consider 96/24 source recordings against final stage conversion. Interesting reading and titles also. Yes, those players would be excellent but they would not qualify for our "within reason" clause. As for my brother who lives in SA, I certainly will treat him to M&A on his next annual visit. I only recently had the chance for him to sample Steely Dan's Two Against Nature DVD in DTS. That and a few well chosen CD's actually altered his somewhat low opinion of JBL's. He was stunned. I admit I was once dubious also until I audtioned our Danish/French XTi60's. BTW, some of the XTi series did not rate that well in some British mags, but the 60's are pure bliss and really compliment the B&W LCF6 s2 center. Another bout of imsomnia and I'm starting to ramble. I'm looking forward to the DVD-A experience and I'd be buying a decent player tomorrow, but I promised my wife we'd wait until after getting a widescreen (plasma VS DLP rp). It just never ends. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 430 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't see anything wrong with those speakers. Your brother must having something pricey. I wonder if SA means Adelaide. I was told they think they're a bit special down there... We seem to be about neck and neck in this HT business. Here's a radical proposal. Consider a video projector. Here we go with spouse acceptance again, probably. Mine was dead against it on general grounds of decor etc until I borrowed a decent hi-res XGA LCD computer projector for the weekend. Everyone was wowed, wife included. If you have a load of speakers round the place, mounting a projector on the ceiling or back wall is not going to make things much worse. You get a whole lot more picture for your money, both in size and resolution, and you can roll up the screen and hide it when not in use. Much better than having a huge TV round the place. I found the smallest effective screen size was about 80 inches diagonally, which is actually too big. We have a very high ceiling and the projector had to be behind the viewer for the trial. Look at the price of even 50 inch plasmas. Unfortunately we're stuck for a while with an older conventional Sony CRT. But I am keen to go the projector route, especially DLP, when the ship comes in. This is another topic! I hope to get a DVD-A player soon and will report back, right on topic. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 79 Registered: Feb-04 | John A You're well informed about Adelaideans - hmm a bit special - we'll let them sort that out! Brother has Krik speakers custom made for the ABC studios and an assortment of high end components. Yes, we considered a projector, while we'd really like a large screen our room is not suitable. We appear similar in many aspects, we too have high ceilings, but we have an open messinine floor over 50% of our living/dining/lounge room and a screen (roll-up/roll-down/static) would be problematic for our viewing/component wall - too much to explain. Our current 40" Pioneer RP has phosphur burns and is too costly to repair, though viewable it is annoying, so we'd still need a television. The DLP RP under consideration is 44" and about 12" deep and well priced at about $4300. HD ready and 300HZ with 8000hr lamp life. But new stuff is appearing constantly and prices are coming down so who knows? I'll look forward to your selection of DVD-A player and your review. While I know it goes against your grain I still think you should consider both formats while spending your money if only for the benefit of broader future selections. BTW our set-up is 5.1 our rears are JBL wall mounted SR3611's. Our sub is an extraordinary 100watt Richter Krakatoa (great name I thought) costing $699 and is widely rated as the best buy here under a grand. I often read herein about 150 - 200 wts plus for subs and I wonder about some peoples room sizes as I have the volume at about 60% and worry about neighbours. I'd be interested to know your set up - you may have stated herein, if so, just a link will save me a search. Cheers John! |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 50 Registered: Feb-04 | I've been reconsidering the DVD-A/SACD situation and now I agree with My Rantz about the wisdom of getting a universal player at this time. I recently read that there are nearly three times as many SACD titles than DVD-A titles. If universal players catch on, then both formats could be supported for a while. Imagine if there had been players that could play betamax and VHS. Would betamax have died such a quick death? I'm strongly considering getting the Denon 2200. The only thing that's holding me back is that it doesn't support a DVI/HDMI connection, which my HDTV does. Universal players with DVI/HDMI are currently out of my price range. So it may be better to wait for the technology to trickle down to mid-priced players. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 432 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Thanks again. All interesting stuff. I understand about still needing a television. The purist in me has always tried to go for quality, if necessary at the expense of convenience, such as slides not prints for pre-digital photography, but when something is so much trouble you don't actually use it, then there is no saving or benefit. I learned that in several areas. I think it applies to audio, too. For example, our system has sort of evolved from my long-time interest in stereo, is now pretty complicated, and I am the only one who understands all it will do. Parts (a Rega turntable and KEF Corelli speakers) are 25 years old, in regular use, and still exceptionally good, in my opinion. After adding a Marantz CD player about six years into CD (1988), I had a sort of stereo update about 11 years ago leaving me with the odd combination of an NAD 1000 pre-amp and Sony 55 ES power amp (about 100 W/ch) but it all works well. I never felt the urge to update until the wife liked the idea of getting DVD a couple of years ago. So we got the NAD T532, partly because I had almost tossed a coin between the Marantz and NAD for the first CD player, years before, and read NAD were still seriously rated. I just plugged the DVD player into the stereo (by then with newer KEF speakers) and that was OK for a while. I then thought long and hard about 5.1. Like many people here (and maybe your brother) I liked stereo, and did not want to make compromises for playing music. I eventually settled on an NAD T760, and the sound did not disappoint in any way, even with just stereo. I also had even more second-room KEF speakers stored in the loft (it is long story) which came out for surrounds, and then only needed a centre speaker to get going. I chose one KEF "egg". This is ridiculous, but I may as well finish. We got a Gale 3080W 100 W sub (looking for stuff on subs I stumbled on ecoustics). I discover here the sub I bought is typical "OEM", (Original Equipment Manufacturer) in this case meaning "made in China for a company with the name of a venerable UK speaker manufacturer and sodding flags all over its web site". I suppose past reputation plus "made in China" is the way a lot of older guys go today (don't ask!). Anyway, it's a brilliant sub for our purposes, much better than one made just down the road, I know, I tried it. I notice it has exactly the same cable binding posts as the NAD receiver so there is OEM for you. They work fine, and don't cost arm and a leg, so "OEM" is alright by me. One completely surprising spin-off of all this is I have started listening to music again, and with renewed pleasure. Several guys whose views I respect here have said the same thing. This is not altogether irrelevant because it is the background to my new enthusiasm for DVD-Audio. I've banged on about this before here, but, to me, DVD-A in the broad sense (however you get it) is a big step forward, bigger than the introduction of CD, and more like the advent of stereo, which I am just about old enought to remember. And my knowledge of DVD-A comes from buying just one disc, on spec, with "plays on any DVD player" - the record dealer was sceptical and didn't want me to buy it. I was completely knocked out by the sound. I then spent many hours arguing the toss on this forum and learned some things. That thread "What does 'DVD-audio" mean here?" is still going and I am still arguing with some great Americans who seem streets ahead in terms of what they can buy, and familiarity with what's available, also patient (most, not all) with someone who lives in the backwoods (i.e. Europe). I am not sure anyone wanted all this, and I feel I have taken over Shorty's thread, but there you are. And maybe this has some value because there will be many blokes like me who take some convincing that anything is really new, and never throw anything away. BTW I had my whole system listed here under "profile" but it was wiped out in some sort of system crash a few months ago. "Richter Krakatoa" is an outrageous name for a sub and I think I would have fallen for it just on the name. If it's made in Aus., it would have clinched it, but something with that name really ought to erupt in Indonesia. The economics of OEM subs flying round the world is too complicated for me to grasp. Maybe they get sent by sea. Thanks, again My Rantz! Yes, cheers! However, I feel I am outstaying my welcome, and will try to keep anything else short. Come on, guys, Shorty is a different animal entirely (look at his kit), and would like recommendations of DVD-A players...... |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 433 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, Great. I was writing off-line when you posted. I agree about DVI and HDMI. Maybe it is wise to hold fire. Mind you, life is short. Re SACD, I am still waiting for someone to say "I've tried it; it sounds better". Also, I am suspicious the format is a baited hook for consumers. DVD-A, in contrast, really is the goods, and has all sorts of enterprising independents springing up with new ideas. Like Aix. Thanks for that. I've ordered some stuff, including their demo/set-up disc. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 80 Registered: Feb-04 | John A Thanks for the background. It's sounds like a great set-up, but I'm surprised at the Keff Egg for a your center - they must be something! It's interesting to find out what drives fellow enthusiasts. I too found a new awakening since updating from an integrated Yamaha, old Acculab speakers then adding a 3 channel Yammy processor and wall mounts for HT. It was okay but nothing earthshaking. With our speaker upgrades and additions (btw - Richter is Aus made and gaining a great rep in speakers) the SR-7300 really impresses us in stereo and HT so I know the feeling - it's a new world for us oldies and I eagerly await the new formats! As for shorty and his unlimited budget, there's few of us who have tested what suits his gear and I'm real envious! Thanks again John. Two Cents The Denon DVD-2200 sounds good to me also. I just wonder how much better the DVI and HDMI connection will be than with good component interconnects for the extra cost? |
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Bronze Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 56 Registered: Feb-04 | My Rantz, that's a really good question. By all accounts the DVI/HDMI makes a difference in picture quality, but I'm not sure about audio quality. Samsung is supposed to launch a universal player with a DVI connection in Q3 this year. I imagine others will too. Sony is planning to release an affordable DVI DVD/SACD player but w/o DVD-A later this year. It's hard to imagine the PQ being better than the Denon 2200, but all this new technology continues to astound me. For example, I was skeptical about DVD-A until I actually heard a disc. Now I'm a believer. John A., I'll be interested to hear what you think about the AIX discs. I really believe you would appreciate true DVD-A sound. Is there no place where you can borrow a DVD-A player to try it out? As far as SACD, I'm keeping my mind open until I listen to one. I agree that it's all petty corporate greed. But the fact that there are universal players that play both formats eases some of the frustration induced by this format war. So I figure I have the following choices: 1. Get the Denon 2200 now and be done with it (at least until HD-DVD). 2. Wait for the next wave of mid-priced universal players with the DVI/HDMI connection. 3. Get an affordable universal player (Pioneer 563/565) for SACD/DVD-A and a DVI DVD player (Bravo D-1) for DVDs. 4. Forget all this and return to listening to vinyl records and going to the cinema. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShortySanford, Florida US Post Number: 14 Registered: Mar-04 | WooHoo!! The ancient religions are alive and well and the natives are restless. Thank you gentlemen, all for your input and some very interesting and informative reading. After reading hundreds of specs, posts, and every other thing I could find, I decided on the Denon 5900. I found a place in Colorado that had one in stock and had them overnight it to me. I hooked it up using the component video cables and only the analog audio output connections. The picture is excellent! (even better then the Apex which is now making a very nice door stop) I am passing the audio directly through the Lexicon and the Krell and it sounds superb. Also, it couldn't be easier to use. I drop in a disk, close the drawer and hit play. The 5900 decides what kind of disk it is, DVD-A, SACD, DTS, DD, CD or DVD-V, sets itself up, displays on the front what it is, and plays it. I think this unit is to the point that I would not be able to discern an improvement, no matter how much more I were to spend. (of course, old age, bad ears and weak eyes figure into it somewhat) If I can find a disk of the same music in DVD-A, SACD and DTS formats, I will do a head to head comparison and see if I can pick up the differences. I have several SACD's and DVD-A's and they both sound so excellent that at first blush, I don't think there are significant differences. It becomes a spec war rather than an audible difference. I'll let you know. John A Did you ever find that 40.1 receiver? Goin to the temple tonight, oh yeah, goin to the temple tonight. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 85 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty Congratulations on the 5900. After reading the shootout tests and other reviews I doubt you could chosen a better machine. They are not released in Aus yet and will mostly cost about the same as a beachfront house on the Gold Coast. Will look forward to your DVD-A and SACD comparison. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 97 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty, Glad to hear it. Built like a frickin tank isn't it? Keep an eye out over at avsforum.com, there is much talk about a forthcoming firmware upgrade for the 5900. I'll post a link when I find it. Rantz, How long do you aussies have to wait on the 5900? As a major U.S ally, I have a hard time with you guys having to wait. If I was president, I'd issue an executive order allowing for the IMMEDIATE shipment of 5900's to Australia as a sign of appreciation and solidarity. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 98 Registered: Feb-04 | URGENT*URGENT*URGENT* YOU WANT TO CHECK OUT THIS LINK!!!! DENONJEFF(works for Denon) JUST POSTED THIS: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=87cc04ecd83df5b18549fb541de26b99 &threadid=385490 YOUR NEW FIRMWARE IS READY!!! My 2900 firmware is in as well. GREAT JOB DENON!! |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 86 Registered: Feb-04 | AF1 Let's hope we still have the solidarity after the next election here! As for waiting - who knows! Even the Marantz SR-7400 hasn't been released though the lesser 400's have been. Must have too many 7300's left! I've just found that there is a new Denon DVDA11 @ $3999. I wonder if it is the 5900 with a different badge! Anyway it's out of our league. My preference would be the 2900 ($1999) like yours, but may have to settle for the 2200 ($1399). Even though I'm a Marantz/NAD fan I think Denon is out front on universal DVD players. Anyhow our purchase is some time off yet so anything's possible! |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 99 Registered: Feb-04 | Let's hope we still have the solidarity after the next election here! __________________________________________________ I hear that. Nomatter what, we in the U.S. know that there are people in all countries that stand with us. You wouldn't know it by the media, but we know. Make sure and thank your fellow countrymen for their sacrifices for me when the subject comes up. And thank you. Good god....those are some pretty high prices. I think your right about the Denon players as well. Don't worry about the 2200 vs. the 2900. If PQ is what you are after, they are almost identical in this regard. The analog audio and build is the major difference. Have a good one Rantz. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShortySanford, Florida US Post Number: 15 Registered: Mar-04 | AF1 Thank you very much for the update on the firmware, I'll send for it tomorrow. To tell you the truth, I've been so impressed so far that I hadn't even noticed the menu speed and I've seen no signs of macro blocking. I guess you don't see much of that on audio discs though. Guess i'd better send in the warranty card too. Remember, $1 US = $1.3 AUS. My Rantz I've heard two different stories. One is that you'd get things quicker if we didn't ship them via the north pole. The other is that the New Zealanders have hijacked all of the Denon shipments and are holding them until the next cup race. |
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Bronze Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 100 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty, Not a problem. Enjoy your player, it's a nice one. If the 5900 is the same as the 2900, as far as layer changes go, you won't see one anymore. I hated people asking "what was that pause for?" Some have reported that certain disks still show a slight change, but in the 6 months I've had the 2900, I have yet to see a layer change. Pretty cool if you ask me, and something Denon doesn't emphasize in advertising. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 87 Registered: Feb-04 | Shorty, Maybe all the Kiwis can now afford them after their pay cheques (or checks) for their roles in Jackson's LOTR. I understand the exchange rates, still a dollar to spend is a dollar to find! And I think our import duties are overboard - maybe like your next cup contender will be! Heh! Heh! AF1, Well now you've gone and done it! While good picture quality is very important, great SOUND comes first to me. My wife has been very understanding so far and loves good sound also, but $600 more for the 2900? What's your answer to the WAF - besides Viagra? BTW, I read a review that the 2900 was not so great as a cd player (noted that this is widespread among most DVD players), what is your view on how it handles standard and HDCD? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 447 Registered: Dec-03 | Great follow-ups. Thanks Shorty, thanks everyone. I've checked out the Denons and we do not have a 5900 here on the North Pole, but we do have a 2900. But even that is more than 3x the price of the NAD T533. The 5900 would be about 6x (USD 2000?). The A11 is ... jeez.... I am clearly totally out-gunned by American disposable incomes but never mind, I've got used to that. And I see we are all friends, which counts for more. And size is not everything. See Master and Commander. I predict that movie will bomb in France. I would wonder whether to release it at all, what with this planned European Constitution and all. We are probably going to get the T533, and soon. I will report back. I think at the weekend. Wife not only approves but is enthusiastic, so the ratchet has clicked. So I think we going to go the DVD-A route. I want best sound quality for my little money. If the market goes over to SACD, I'll come back here from time to time and tell you you all sold out. Just kidding. Well, .... Shorty, I must tell you the 40.0 "performance" was a one-off in the Whitechapel Art Gallery, London. It is a 40-part choral piece, written for 8 choirs, each of 5 voices, to be performed "in the round". For the 40-channel recording, each voice was recorded on one channel, and played through one speaker - I was not there, unfortunately, but heard about it on the radio. Puts 7.1 into perspective. You would also need a fair-sized listening room for all those speakers. Plus LOTSAMO. No TV required. That's something. BTW wife now says "keep the old one" so we have two, in case of divorce. Hmmm.... |
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Bronze Member Username: SulfurPost Number: 14 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi guys, any opinions on Denon 2200 vs Marantz DV6400? In terms of both video & audio? Both are similarly priced, MSRP $599 vs $549. Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 362 Registered: Dec-03 | There is no comparison. The Denon 2200 beats the Marantz on almost every specification, from video performance through DVD-A noise level, SACD noise level, cd noise level. Plus the build quality of the denon is much better and it weighs twice as much. The noise level floor is very indicative of the resolution performance that the players are capable of producing and the only one Marantz even gets close to the the Denon 2200 are on cd performance. The Denon 2200, the Denon 2900, and the Pioneer Elite 47AVi, and if you can find the Pioneer Elite 59AVi under $1,000 (there are some available at that price) are the 4 best performing universal dvd players--and by a considerable margin over the other ones at $1100 and south. Heck, they perform better than the Marantz DV8300, except that DV8300 slightly beats the Denon 2200 on SACD, but it loses on the video, DVD-A, and cd playback is close to a wash. And this Marantz model lists at considerably over $1,000. The Pioneer Elite 47AV beats the both Marantz models in every category. That is truly an accomplishment for an older design. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 91 Registered: Feb-04 | I agree with G Stern, Although the Marantz DV6400 gets a decent review here: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=575&page_nu mber=1 the tester points out that the rear panel bends somewhat when connecting cables. To start with build quality should be a concern for durability. Although I'm being repititious, I think the universal Denon models from the 2200 and up are hard to beat. Just read the specs and reviews. Clearly Denon has put much more thought into the design to take care of video and sound performance. Even as a Marantz fan, I don't think I could go past the Denons for a universal DVD player. IMO Go for the 2200! |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 363 Registered: Dec-03 | To give Marantz some props, I think the 5400 receiver is tough to beat at its price point. They put one heckuva good amp in that model. And that Marantz I'd definitely buy over the competing Denon model. The 7400 looks darn impressive too. |
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Silver Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 104 Registered: Feb-04 | BTW, I read a review that the 2900 was not so great as a cd player (noted that this is widespread among most DVD players), what is your view on how it handles standard and HDCD? _________________________________________________ It sounds good to me but I'm no music audiophile. Movies are my thing and the 2900 analog section usually beats the digital section of whatever I hook it to. I thought it even bested the 773 processing slightly. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 93 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks AF1, it's not a deal breaker to me. I was just interested. We like our movies/sound but are passionate about good stereo. Currently using a 5 disc Yamaha cd changer - okay so that's an oxymoron (* see below). We find randomizing tracks from various CD's eliminates getting bored with them, besides unnecessary interuption when we're sitting at the bar! Hopefully, the price might drop on the 2900 when we're ready to buy. I'm really looking forward to DVD-a and possibly sacd! *IMO exceptional improvement from analogue using optical cable into our 7300. It makes cd stereo almost audiophile quality especially as the level goes down - on the Sam Cougar music appreciation component. |
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Bronze Member Username: SulfurPost Number: 15 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks GMan & others! Looks like street price for 2200 has dropped from $600 to about $450. Have to check which sites are authorized though. Will be a sweet step up from my $50 no-name DVD/CD player (at least it has digital coax). Gotta wonder how much longer this Denon/Marantz overlap will go on. Doesn't make any business sense to me. Why would Marantz put out a similarly priced, competiting line of products that are inferior to its Denon cousins? IMHO they should either target different market segments (price points) or combine their engineering efforts to build even better products at lower R&D cost. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 97 Registered: Feb-04 | I for one hope Denon and Marantz do not combine their engineering efforts. Since Denon bought Marantz many hope that they continue to put out products with their own characteristics. What would be the point of buying Marantz only to get Denon qualities or vice versa. May as well rename the brand: Denantz or Maranton! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 448 Registered: Dec-03 | I have now had 36 hours with the NAD T533. That includes one day off for serious dentistry. While waiting for the novocaine to wear off, I found. 1. Yes, DVD-A is better than DTS. Quite a lot. I would never have believed it possible. It is such a pleasure to hear. Just like being there. So many interesting things happening in the music I hadn't noticed before. Little ones and big ones. 2. Cd sounds even better than on the T532. I have not tried so many CDs yet, so it could just be my enjoyment of the music. 3. Dolby Digital AC3 is consistently better, clearer, more detail, using the T533 AC3 processor for the "Ext 5.1" analogue input to the receiver. Many DVD-V discs are in Dolby 5.1 only, so this is an unexpected bonus. My preliminary but clear conclusion is the NAD T533 gives astonishing sound quality for the money, and DVD-A really lives up to the promises. |
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Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 98 Registered: Feb-04 | John A Are you saying the AC3 decoding is a marked improvement than the decoder in your T760. If so, that is interesting as a dealer here told me the decoders in DVD players were not the quality of those in receivers - then again, I was looking to buy a receiver at the time! With Cd's have you connected by analogue or digital to your receiver? When initially talking to our local NAD dealer (prior to my SR-7300 purchase) he told me that while CD's sounded okay on their DVD players, it still wasn't as good as the NAD CD players. I constantly hear this in general and although my Luxman DVD player validates this, I read where others get great CD performance from their DVD players. So digital vs analogue could be in the answer. I recently listened to a SACD and DVD-a at a friends and the SACD was incredibly superior to the DVD-a which was great btw! He has NAD T763 and Paradigms surround. The sacd experience was like nothing I could have believed possible in sound. John - I'm just kidding! It didn't happen. Congrats on your purchase - I'm really glad you like it! |
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Silver Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 105 Registered: Feb-04 | Congrats on the new gear John. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 450 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz and Airforce, Thanks. Really. I will post some more impressions and findings after I have had some more time with it, at the weekend. My Rantz, Thanks for that first, ever, clear statement that SACD beats the ____ out of DVD-A. You had me deeply worried for a few seconds. Just as well it was April the first (you have All Fools' Day there?)! To answer, briefly, "Are you saying the AC3 decoding is a marked improvement than the decoder in your T760". All I can say is it sounds helluva lot better. No question about that. You'd be deaf not to hear it. Same speaker delays, same everything: and you can just switch inputs between "Video 1" and "Ext 5.1" to make the comparison. With "Video 1" it sounds pretty much the same as with the old T532. WIth "Ext 5.1" it sounds like you've "cleared the varnish off" and can see what's underneath. If I heard that switch before, I would have said it was the switch from DD to DTS. I am going to have to stop blasting DD AC3 if it can sound like this. Whether it is down to superiority of the player's DACs or processor or both, I have no idea. The sampling frequency and sample size of AC3 is not so high, so I can't see immediatley how that could make a difference. "With Cd's have you connected by analogue or digital to your receiver?" I've only tried analogue so far. I will make that comparison and report back. That's a good question. I was very happy with the T532 CD playback. TO tell whether the T533 really is an improvement, I will have too listen more stringently. CD-digital/CD-analogue is the same sort of comparison as DVD-digital/DVD-Ext_5.1. So I can just switch inputs, and compare. With the T532 player, there was absolutely no difference in sound between CD-digital/CD-analogue on the T760 receiver. I listened hard for it many times. BTW I also chose a hi-res CD, one recorded in 24 bits. I'll try a "normal" CD and see if any difference remains. I have to thank you guys, and on other threads. It feels good to have something that really is an upgrade. I do love clarity and direction in sound and music. And I learned it here. |
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Bronze Member Username: SemPost Number: 26 Registered: Mar-04 | Congratulations John A. on your new purchase. I look forward to reading additional thoughts on things like DVD-A, etc as you get to know your new player. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 468 Registered: Dec-03 | Spent my first weekend with the NAD T533. I have lots and lots to say. But there is one important thing, above all, I never knew before. I have just put this in a thread on CD players, but I wish to say it here, too, and it is edited. If you already knew this, apologies - but many don't. If you disagree, please say. If you love recorded music, and enjoy high quality sound: get a DVD-Audio player. It will play your CDs, too. But the resolution and detail on DVD-Audio ("DVD-A") is a huge step forward over CD. It is breathtaking. Really. Literally. I am absolutely not making this up; I hear it for myself. Every time. Every disc. Even if you prefer two-channel stereo, DVD-A is a massive improvement. But real music in high-resolution 5.1 surround-sound is just beautiful. Don't get DVD-A confused with Home Theater, as I did, just because it happens that DVD-Audio players also play DVD-Videos. That is to do with evolution and the accidents of format development. I, too, have hundreds of CDs. But we have all been taken for a ride, and it started in 1982. The CD, like the audio tape cassette, is a convenience format, compromising sound quality in order to get an hour of stereo on a 5" disc with the digital technology of the 1970s. DVD-Audio is the best thing since stereo. Sliced bread is not in the race. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 103 Registered: Feb-04 | John A "I have just put this in a thread on CD players" Actually, you put this post in a thread under "speakers", no matter! Damn it! Now you have me really excited and I still have to keep my promise to wife to wait until after our future tv display purchase. But there is also another issue at work: our current DVD player has 1.5 zoom allowing 16.9 enlarged to a viewable full or near full screen on our 4:3 TV. Most decent DVD-a/sacd players have min 2x zoom. So with new TV display with zoom features, it won't matter. Getting back to the point, it sounds like you are experiencing an audio re-birth and I can't wait for the experience. "I, too, have hundreds of CDs. But we have all been taken for a ride" John, I agree with this point on older CD's but in recent years I think the cd audio has been much improved (I'll standby for the phonophile's to disagree). And I noticed a remarkable difference in bypassing my cd player's audio circuitry with digital cable into our SR-7300. But heck, it's 2004 now so it is time audio is improved. Now, you'll be pleased to know I took your advice and viewed Finding Nemo. I guess I'd fallen behind somewhat on recent animation with suround audio. It was very enjoyable, witty, clever and great sound. We followed this with Dianne Krall's "Live in Paris" in DTS - again, was blown away. I'm really pleased to hear of your enjoyment of this new audio experience. |
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Silver Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 108 Registered: Feb-04 | Holy Cow John, sounds like you got some serious bang for the buck! Glad to hear it. There's NOTHING like a REAL upgrade, as you've said before. I'll have to go to the dealer and listen to that unit. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 470 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Great. Thanks. You are correct about the topic. I should probably take a snifter before posting that under CD/SACD. Glad you liked "Finding Nemo". I'll ask the wife about "Live in Paris" and check it out. Our Saturday home cinema was "Calendar Girls". Wonderful, gorgeous movie. The new improved Dolby Digital came up trumps. But this was the weekend of my religeous conversion, as you see. Honesty, I cannot get over it. Tell your brother! New TV or DVD-A? No contest! And you can hardly get a small, flickering CRT for the price of e.g. the NAD T533. What a bargain. I will write some more about this player. It has component video, btw, but our TV won't take even that. With luck I will get the right topic. But it is the DVD-A format that is the real news, for me; I am sure other players discussed above will do as good a job. All the best. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 472 Registered: Dec-03 | AIRFORCE, Thanks. "Real upgrade" is right. I've never before done an upgrade just to the next model. But T532 -> T533 is a revolution. I don't know about your dealer, but mine did not have a clue about DVD-A. Asked about connecting to the receiver, he tried to flog me a single digital co-ax, priced at about a third of that of the receiver. He didn't know you need 6 x analogue interconnects to feed the "Ext 5.1" inputs on the amp/receiver. 3 x simple stereo analogue interconnect pairs is just fine, and the cost is trivial. It's great you guys are still with me. Even more amazing, the wife is bowled over by the sound, too. She thought I was getting unhinged. She said, patiently, OK, let's just listen to one of "The Four Seasons". She chose "Spring", then refused to press "stop" or even "pause", listening intently to the whole lot through to "Winter" in one go. Unprecedented. 16 year old son (nothing phases him) who only likes pop came in for "Winter". Son's comment: "What totally incredible sound!". Wife's comment: "It's exactly like being there. You can hear the soloist clear his throat, and if you close your eyes you can hear how big the hall is!". Totally correct. It's the reverb time. Sorry, this is probably getting boring. But do it. Get one. You never knew what the rest of your system can do. |
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Silver Member Username: AirforceonePost Number: 109 Registered: Feb-04 | John, your not boring me. In fact, it's nice to see someone thrilled with their purchase rather than let down, as it seems is usually the case, as far as electronics forums are concerned. Keep it coming... |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 474 Registered: Dec-03 | AIRFORCE, Thanks. Will do. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 503 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, I have now done the comparison of analogue with digital connection to the receiver, for CD. Any difference is minimal. I gave it a good shot. See Listening to CDs: CD Player or DVD Player (warning: includes pretentious ramble about Mahler, orchestration, and bowing techniques). I fancy both connections with the T533 are a whisker ahead of the T532, but it could just be me, and I don't think I'll hook up both players to make the comparison. That would be getting obsessive.... BTW we keep the T532. It's currently plugged into a 12" Trinitron Sony TV with active computer speakers. It is right now (Easter school holidays) being used for Dr Who in "Dolby Digital Mono" (that's 1.0!). That's kinder than sending it to live with strangers. It served us well. I am still sparing you "Review of NAD T533", but would just like to mention, quite briefly, the not inconsiderable improvement in sound quality obtained with DVD-Audio...... |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 107 Registered: Feb-04 | John A I really appreciate the comparison and it sounds like the T533 is an excellent unit (and don't spare the review), if it had that "other" format I'd put it on my list. I read the link and as usual, you gave a very detailed account of what you are hearing. My interest is now peaking! Another example for why I wrote the ode - I'll add a comment to yours on the thread. I replayed Krall's Live in Paris DVD today (a little more volume) and again tweaked settings. I was totally absorbed thinking if this is close to DVD-A then I'm really missing out in waiting. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 511 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, I am intrigued by Live in Paris. It is a DVD-Video, of course, with no DVD-A. I hope no-one is disappointed if and when they learn that DVD-A is audio only, except for still photographs. When in Aus I travelled a bit in a rented Ford Ka with an FM radio, loved it, and heard Loreena McKennitt for the first time. I thought she was terrific. I think there was a newly-released "Live in Paris and Toronto". Here, record stores file her under "New Age" which turns me right off, but what's in a name? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 109 Registered: Feb-04 | John A Diana Krall's Live in Paris is DVD-V (in DD2, DD5.1 or DTS5.1). Her voice, her Steinway, the band and the European Symphony Orchestra unleash a 130 minute session of wonderful talent. Jazz the way it should be and very well recorded. My point was if the DTS surround is anywhere close the DVD-A then I can't wait much longer. Haven't heard Loreena McKennit but if she's not jazz, jazz/blues or blues, that would be why. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 516 Registered: Dec-03 | Loreena McKennit is one of your country's leading exports. Jazz-influnced, certainly, but with a lot of sort of folky Celtic stuff. Hence the "New Age" I expect. I'd swap her for Germaine Greer any day. I really will try to get Live in Paris by Diana Krall. Is she pretty? |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 111 Registered: Feb-04 | John A The folky Celtic stuff rarely gets a hearing - even on my Van Morrison CD's - but that's me! "Is she pretty?" Yeah quite and pretty good too - fancy that! I have a feeling you'll like the concert. "I'd swap her for Germaine Greer any day" - That's two cuss words in the middle of your sentence! :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 53 Registered: Feb-04 | John A.: I am in love with Diana Krall. There may be prettier women, there may be better singers, and there may be better piano players, but nobody combines all three like this Canadian lady! I saw her, in my home town, perform basically the same concert as on the Live in Paris disc. In one telling moment, somebody's cell phone went off in between songs. She was'nt bothered at all. In fact she reached over to the keyboard and played the stupid cell phone ring note for note. That Elvis Costello guy is one lucky man. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 525 Registered: Dec-03 | ...Also a very talented one, himself. What are they, an item, or something? Cool. Thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 54 Registered: Feb-04 | John A.: For almost a decade, I was obsessed with Mr. McManus (Elvis Costello). I've seen him in concert no less than 6 times. Now, I don't always buy his releases, but he's still up on my list. He and Diana were married sometime last year. My wife thinks it's all so charming that two of my heroes from two different musical worlds have hooked up. From the timing of Diana's Paris concert, I'm betting he was backstage. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 544 Registered: Dec-03 | John S, Thanks for that. If they decide to have children, the world should watch out! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1067 Registered: Dec-03 | For what it's worth, here is another subjective assessment of DVD-Audio. I stick with two-channel, just so the comparison is simpler. I also do not speak of SACD. Probably many people are now familiar with the step back in sound quality you get when you move from CD to MP3 or to an iPod with default settings. Or with the step back from an FM/satellite broadcast to a RealAudio stream at 56 kbps. DVD-A, in my estimation, is a step forward from CD, at least equal in magnitude to those steps back. Probably greater. After further listening, I have not changed my mind since my post on April 05, above. Of course many people value the convenience of CD. You can get equal sound quality, and more convenience, by increasing the "sound quality" (data transfer rate) on an MP3 player, and also by reading .aiff files, which are the same as those on a CD. If music itself is your first priority, DVD-Audio, also apparently known as "PCM Stereo" for 2.0 (parallel thread), is now the format of choice, by a considerable margin. |
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