Well folks, hold onto your hats. Tim has taken up the gauntlet and he's sending me a pair of speakers to A/B against the Ascends. This will be a straight mano a mano of the Ling speaker against Ascend 170s with no holds barred. Anyone want to pick the music?
Tim, you may have first pick, if I've got it. I was thinking a little Diana Krall and Norah Jones and some Pink Floyd and a little Mozart, London Symphony version. This should give these speakers a good test on music, instruments and vocals. Then, I'll throw some movies at them for HT and I'll switch them out as front and rears after I try each of them separately as fronts.
Should I use my Polk center to keep things fair or stick in the Ascend 340C center, which will have a timbre matching advantage to the Ascends or should I run without a center for this test. Inquiring minds want to know how the battle for bookshelves under $400/pair comes out.
Given the lack of speaker choices in Spokane, this will give me an interesting comparison. And no matter what happens, I'll give everyone a good idea about the Lings and our own Northwest speaker guy, Tim. Thanks for the opportunity, Tim.
Wow, I'm VERY interested to hear the results of this little showdown!
Since you're getting only one pair of the Lings, it wouldn't be fair to include the Ascend 340c in the mix. I'd just keep it a stereo versus stereo test for both HT and music.
Good move Tim. If you get a few more reviews you will get a number more sales, I think.
I have heard that classical is the best music to really test speakers and equipment since it has so much variation, but I think vocal music (krall, etc.) will be important as well.
Peter and Edster get their wish. Stereo mode only with Diana's "Love Scenes", yep I've got it. Give me your 2-4 favorite cuts and I'll A/B them several times and see whether the Lings or 170s love Diana best.
And Don, I won't forget you, I'll A/B a Mozart orchestral piece and a winds piece for you. And, for myself, I think I may bring back some of my old Eagles' favorites off their Greatest Hits album. So, we'll give them both a good workout.
And just to keep things fair, Tim is sending his own speakers, already broken in, so the Ascends won't have the break in advantage either as I've got over 40 and probably over 50 hours on them.
Now, not to suggest any favortism, because I've got none. Just a comment to Edster and Don. I added the 340c last night to the 170s in front and all I can say is "WOW". I put on Phantom of the Opera because we have watched it several times with my old system, once with the 170s up front and now with the 340c. I did not use subtitles on purpose, remember my upper level hearing loss, AND never needed them. It sounded like I added some power to my sub on the base. We were getting sound in the lower ranges that we had never heard before. The clarity and crispness on the treble, especially with her voice in several of the arias, was incredible and negated any need for the subtitiles. A couple of times, I had to get up and check to see if the 340c was putting out dialogue because it sounded like it was coming from the fronts and rears and all over the room. It was pretty magical and my wife told me to quit pointing out sounds we hadn't heard and "just listen to the incredible music." LOL
The 340c midrange is simply clear and almost transparent. I'll probably add the two rear 170s tonight or tomorrow and see if it can get any better.
Now Tim, don't worry. If the Lings can compete with the sound I'm getting, you don't just have a winner, you've got to start making a heck of alot more speakers at your price point, because I think your speakers win the "looks" category hands down. If they're within 10%-20% of the Ascends in sound, all I can say is "WOO HOO!!!!"
I'm sorry I am a bit behind on this, are you comparing the AAL speaker with a tweeter or not. If it's the one with the tweeter I am very interested in your findings. I will be looking for speakers for a second system next year and these speakers are in the running.
T-Man, I'll always have Norah. Listened to her last night from 10:00 to 11:00 p.m. in the dark with the new center channel, blasphemy I know to you direct stereo guys. I think my wife is getting jealous. LOL
Art, you know I didn't ask but I think Tim is sending the 2 ways, not single phase. That would be the fairer comparison with the Ascends. Come on over, it's only a 6-7 hour drive and we'll evaluate them together. I'd trust your ears over mine and definitely your wider A/B experiences.
I think Edster will be fine no matter how it turns out and I'll be ecstatic, even if I have to send the Ascends back, BECAUSE if the Lings sound better than what I'm hearing now, they are INCREDIBLE!!!
BUT, I'm not giving up that 340C center UNLESS Tim can promise me a comparable replacement, pronto. Tim???
I'm thinking another Ling over the top would work, BUT, Tim's website does have a mysterious reference to an upcoming "center channel". If the Lings meet or beat the Ascends, he's going to need to get that puppy to market, pronto, for all of us HT/music enthusiasts.
Tim, do you really have to go to your "day" job? Hey, I'm goofing around here on my day job.
Not trying to get of the subject,has anyone heard the Onix Rockets before they are sold through a online company called AV123 they sell amps, cd players the stuff is pretty reasonable priced to.
Anonymous
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The X-88 CDP is a Shanling 100/Music Hall 25 clone. I like the Rocket 550(think just below Paradigm Studio 100) and the ufw-10" sub, which is fast for music not low for HT. The 750 is not my cup of tea. I have not heard anything else from av123.
Dakulis-just got back from a Seattle vacation I think the boss would kill me. It should be a fun comparison. I am looking forward to your observations.
Art, hey while you were gone, I deleted the "real name" and substituted with "Dakulis." Just to be a little more fun. This is the same guy you advised to keep the Denon 3803 over the 2805 and to whom you suggested the Paradigms.
I figured you knew that, Art, but I wanted to make certain you knew, I still loved ya even though you're done vacationing for the moment. LOL.
Dakulis, instead of using Love Scenes, may I recommend her first album Stepping Out. Although she's not as polished as her later album, IMHO it is a better recording. Track 1 and 3 will definitely give your speakers a good workout with accoustic bass, clean percussion and grand piano. If you enjoy Krall, it is worth picking up.
If you have Dave Brubeck's Greatest Hits, try any songs for imaging but his Rondo a la Turk is just plain scary... what I would give to have been able to listen to him live.
Yep Dakulis (David) I was pretty sure it was you. Hey guys if you want to give your speakers an acoustic bass test try The Bad Plus "These are the Vistas". You will know a whole lot more about your speakers after playing that one.
I've got "Love Scenes," now you want me to buy more Diana Krall. Geez, go ahead and twist my arm, BUT you're going to deal with my lovely wife, OK?
Art, is it SACD or DVD-A or just a good recording. Because the Denon DVD player won't be here until next week. Also, I usually play my system with a sub, as you know, so should I turn the sub off to test the Ascends?
Right on Dakulis - this head to head is gonna be fun for to spectate.
Best for you to use music that you know really, really well. Here are a couple that I like to use: •Massive Attack "Danny the Dog" or any other of their albums •Henryk Gorecki Symphony #3 London Sinfonietta, David Zinmann conductor •The Thin Red Line soundtrack •Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" •Cassandra Wilson "Blue Moon Daughter" "Blue Light Til Dawn" "Travelin' Miles" •Los Lobos "Colossal Head" •Muddy Waters "Hard Again" •Buddy Guy "Sweet Tea" •Robbie Robertson "Storyville" •Jef Lee Johnson "Blue"
Thanks. Several great suggestions and I may have one or two of those. BUT, I can't use "Hard Again," it will only muddy the waters. Hey, I'm killing myself here!!!
I would play test both with and without the sub. I know it's a bit of a pain but then you know which speakers sound better straight up and which ones integrate best with the sub. The Bad Plus album is a CD. It's alot of fun, sounds very dynamic.
> Edsters gonna love this,he is probably dreaming about this shootout.
actually Tawaun I'm a little ambivalent...what if the Lings REALLY blow my beloved Ascends out of the water? On one hand they'd have to be truly unbelievable speakers in this (perfect) price range, but on the other hand I'll be out even more dough! LOL, the endless perils of ecoustics!
You should be glad if thats the case,you and a few others on here have talked every day to the guy who designed your speakers,hey this whole thing is a team effort.
Some other test recordings I have used for auditions:
Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out (the remastered edition) Dead Can Dance - Spiritchaser or Toward the Within Lisa Gerrard - The Mirror Pool October Project - Falling Farther In Esbjorn Svensson Trio - Seven Days of Falling Pat Metheny Group - Imaginary Day Bebel Gilberto - Tanto Tempo Wax Poetic - Wax Poetic (Norah Jones before she was Norah Jones) Tuatara - Breaking the Ethers Stanton Moore - All Kooked Out
I was hoping to keep Tim in the dark about my 6 monoblock amps, wired 3 in sequence off the Denon to my fronts. Whoops Don, you spilled the beans, now.
And, I forgot to tell him, I listen to Diana and Norah in the evening BUT it's Eminem all day at about 400 decibals, OUCH!!! Sure, Tim will be happy to let you A/B them when I'm done, Don.
What did you say? Huh, I can't heeaarrr yyooouu. Geez Art, between all this new gear you suggested and all the new CDs, you and Edster talked me into, I'm going to be asking for a loan pretty soon.
The wife is calling time out on further spending until she catches up. BIG OUCH!!!
Tomorrow is the day. The Lings should arrive around 6:00 p.m. or so and I'll be home to great and meet them. Then, we'll do some testing for 3 days AND then, I've got to go out of town again, BBBBOOOOOO!!!!!
So, by Tuesday late, you'll have the first report and by Thursday late, we should have a WINNER!! although that's probably harsh I cannot imagine that either of these speakers will be losers. More to come, tomorrow.
There we go, I'll use the "Annie" soundtrack, "tomorrow, tomorrow, blah blah blah." JUST KIDDING!!!
The music selections I've seen should be fine ('cept for Eminem, but to each his own). I'm sending the CC plans to my cabinet builder tommorrow and we'll have to iron out some of the details once he's looked them over. In the meantime, try them without a CC and see which one creates the illusion better. The CC isn't much of a mystery, it's a prototype sitting on top of my big screen and a perfect sonic match for the Lings. OH, I have an idea. Play "King Tut" by Steve Martin.
Ok, seriously; Tierney Sutton Diana Krall Eleanor McEvoy Monty Alexander Yamamoto, Tsuyoshi Trio Pink Floyd Meat Puppets Nirvana Mickey Hart and a little classical like Berlioz and of course, Tchaikovsky. Some bluegrass would be ok too. Did I mention that my musical tastes vary?
Well, here's round one, although in fairness I had only an hour and a few minutes to compare before I had to go to some meetings.
These speakers sound different and present the music differently. I listened to about 3 tracks of Diana Krall, 4 tracks of Norah Jones, 2 tracks of an old Harry Chapin album (I wanted to hear a male voice with more bass), and I started a Mozart piece but had to leave.
I'll add some additional genres and flavors as I go. But, it's way too close to call after round one. The Lings have a much more musical midrange and, overall, a warmer sound. With Diana Krall, it made her sound more sexy, sorry all women out there reading this. A little more breathy, brought out the quality of her voice. The instruments sounded warmer, especially the bass and electric guitar. Also, the Lings go deeper in the bass than the Ascends AND I did all testing today in stereo, straight 2 channel.
The Ascends present a more neutral midrange, which interestingly enough, made Norah sound better here than she did with the Lings. In addition, her voice is a little more nasal, I think, and the brighter highs you get with the Ascends kept her vocals more clear than with the Lings. I would rate the Ascends as a little brighter highs in this regard.
I could tell very little difference in the Ascends and Lings with Harry Chapin. Not sure if it's the quality of the recording or the fact that I didn't have as much time to do the A/B. I can't say anything about classical yet as I had to leave before I could give the Lings a chance.
BUT, not too worry. Round 2 will be tomorrow and I hope to have a couple of hours with them. On Thursday, they're going to get a little HT workout so I can report how they sound in 2 channel and 2.1 HT use. I'm not sure when I'm going to add the sub into the music listening as I'm really trying to evaluate these speakers mano a mano at this point. Eventually, I need to determine whether one speaker versus the other sounds better with the sub since that's how they'll be used 80% of the time. Yes, I listen to most of my music in 5 channel or PLII.
After round one, I could be very happy with either of these speakers. They present differently but both are very strong performers at this price point. I'd have to call round one a tie but more to come, all.
Somed00d
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Interesting. I'd like to know the outcome, as detailed as possible please. While listening be sure to note how each speaker draws you into the music, not just how they perform technicallly. Iv'e noticed that some speakers SOUND impressive, but do little to keep you involved in the music.
SomedOOd, I will definitely report on my emotions as I get the opportunity to listen more, relax a little and concentrate on the music instead of trying to hear exactly what each speaker is doing to the music. BUT, I thought the first report should be about the obvious differences I could hear in a quick listen. Trust me, much more to come. I just wish I wasn't going to be out of town this weekend as that would allow a fairly thorough sit down, which is why I suspect my lovely wife scheduled this trip. I don't think she was looking forward to sitting around all weekend watching me listening. :-)
Somed00d
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Hey, Dakulis
Sorry I didnt see your last reponse untill after I posted. I opologize if I sounded demanding. Im not suprised you found the Lings more musical. If im not mistaken, they are crossoverless in the midrange? Most fans of this type of speaker consider crossovers, especially over complex ones, to take the life out of music and kill the midrange. I wouldn't know because I never heard such a speaker.
Interesting. I'm especially curious to hear what you think when you hook up the sub, since the 170s were practically designed with a subwoofer in mind.
Somed00d, My speakers (Ohms) have a xover at around 8K and it makes quite a sonic difference - in many ways.
When I read the review on the Lings the other day, their design really caught my eye, which is why I posted about them in the $400 thread. With typical dynamic design speakers it takes some talent ($) to get the mid-range right, especially with a xover at around 1-2k.
And that's why I'm never pleased with most of the popular speakers out there. I'm hooked on the Ohm's smooth mids (among other things), and look for that quality in other speakers. I've heard that effortless sound from some really pricey companies, and would love to see the more affordable guys capture that same natural sound.
Somed00d, hey, no harm intended or considered. I thought it was a fair request and I'll try to address it.
Don, quit going to bed so early, you're missing all the fun.
Edster, no sub used, yet. But, I have about a 10 year old M&K, MX80 with two 12 inches. Plenty of base when needed, and in fact, if anything it needs to be toned down after the kids listen to anything or watch a movie.
I'll report more this evening after work. This whole work thing is really cutting into my dang speaker testing. :-)
sounds like a very competent sub. I heard a tiny M&K once, probably no more than 8-10" woofer, in pretty big room with high vaulted ceilings and it still did a superb job with music.
I'll look for your evening posting. How much did you pay for the Lings, btw? I've been plotting to upgrade the lousy Polk R20s in my bedroom system sometime in the next few months and just might give it a shot.
I haven't talked price with Tim, yet. He was very kind to agree to send them and pay for shipping so I could A/B them against the 170s. However, his website says $400/pair so I think that's where we'll be. Hey, if they outperform the 170s, it's a no-brainer, right?
Very funny, Don. I would have to be less articulate, make even fewer clear cut statements, hide my real meaning in more acoustically irrelevant language, and sidestep most, if not all relevant comparisons, if I worked for "Ecoustics, etc."
But, Round 2 was postponed by other duties, DARN! But, I had a great time with 13 Boy Scouts at a lake only to come home and find 15 late teenage to early 20s somethings watching "Phantom of the Opera" with the Ascends and the sub turned up to bass stomping madness. Yeah, I think the M&K will work, Edster. I was going to hook up Tim's Lings but I got home too late and the equipment was occupied. BUT, tonight I"ve got time and space. Round 2 to come.
My equipment doesn't get occupied as I am the only one allowed to use it. I am building another system for my wife. She can use the TV but not any of the audio equip..it's mine not ours.
I'm definitely not there, yet. In our house, what's mine is everyone's and what's theirs I have to beg to borrow, on those rare occasions where I may need to borrow something. LOL
Yes you need to work on being vague and at the same time praising the Lings so much that Tim sends you his center channel to review when he is done with it.
Actually, your competent non professional review means more to us than if you worked for hometheater magazine or whatever.
They do need to watch their words, unfortunately. One has to read "between the lines" often to figure out what they are really saying. Sometimes one can't really figure it out. Some of their comparisons are helpful, sometimes they are comparing apples and hot air balloons.
I miss Paul. I left that line out there and there was no one there to take the bait, then drill me. I hope he's enjoying his vacation.
Don, I'm studying professional reviews so that when we're done even I won't know which speaker won and why. "The Lings demonstrated incredible nuances in the midrange, treble range of the 50 to 70 hz. base range but I noticed some sibilance in the upper ends of the super highs." WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT MEAN? LOL
Started with some classic Mozart, "Symphony No. 40 in G minor," played by the Leipzig Philharmonic, which I've listened to about 150,000 times on various systems.
Had to give this one to the Ascends. The strings were livelier, more real sounding and you could distinguish better that there were multiple violins playing rather than a "mass" of strings. The highs with the flutes and oboes were rendered very well by both speakers, the Ascends a little brighter, which I feel they should be, while the Lings played them a little warmer, more a matter of taste than superiority.
Back to Norah Jones, "Come Away With Me", cuts Nos. 1, 2 and 3. Very different pieces. My wife listened to all three of these. She preferred the sound of the Ascends over the Lings on these pieces. Her explanation was that the Ascends sounded clearer, especially her voice.
I thought she was right on cut nos. 1 and 2. I felt that the Lings sounded better on cut no. 3, which is a little warmer piece. It's starts with bass and comes in with piano and both sounded clear and especially strong in the midrange. The Lings gave more push on the bass, but the Ascends simply don't go as low. (I don't think my wife is a big bass fan, while I like my bass. LOL)
Then, on to a Movie soundtrack, "Out of Africa." Again, there are a couple of great pieces with very different sounds. Cut No. 1, the main title has a number of wind instruments at the beginning and then in come the violins and violas. The Ascends rendered the highs clearly and the wind instruments sounded rich and full. The issue with strings as in clasical, the Ascends did them better and with wonderful emotion. I really enjoyed this sound about as well as anything I've heard on these speakers.
But, on cut no. 6, "Karen's Journey Siyawe," there are some traditional African drums and some interesting percussion instruments at the beginning and then they go into wind instrument and horns. The Lings were incredible on this piece. The bass was tighter, lower in range and very warm. You could feel the rhythmic beat and it just sounded right. The Ascends made the drums sound a little too bright, but they did a better job with the wind instruments and horns, although I didn't feel they sounded as good as the Lings here.
Finally, I listened to the main title of the "Chariots of Fire" CD, performed by Vangelis. I also listened to most of "Abraham's Theme." I started with the Ascends. I wondered how they would sound because the main title is fairly bright all by itself and I thought the Ascends' highs might be a little fatigueing and too bright. NOPE, sounded great, tight, clear highs and mid. Still not the bass that the Lings can produce but with a sub, it's a tossup on bass. On these cuts, the Lings simply didn't sound right during the entire audition. Finally, I got up and noticed that my right channel was not playing at all. I had to pull the speaker out and when I started to untighten the positive wire, it suddenly came back to life. I may have tightened it fairly well but I've never had a speaker do that. (Tim, is that something that you've had happen with the Lings?)
Anyway, I decided to listen to both pieces again. The Ascends outperformed the Lings on the main title. The Lings were a little muddy on the main title instrumental, especially in the highs but they were better in the midrange. On "Abraham's Theme," it was literally a toss-up. The music starts with this otherworldly sound that plays in the background, very metallic and the Ascends just captured that perfectly. Then, xylophone comes in and the Lings just made it sound warm and harmonic. WOW! Anyway, I'd call the last one a draw.
So, where does that leave us. Well, heck, I could be very happy with either of these speakers. I would be interested in people's thoughts on the Denon 3803 and whether it's considered to be fairly neutral, bright or warm. I would characterize it as fairly neutral and I think that's, in part, why the Ascends do so well with it. I think if someone had a more "bright" receiver, the Lings would make them extremely happy as they would tone it down a bit and really warm up the treble and midrange. Tim's midrange on the Lings is every bit as good as the Ascends, possibly a tad better.
I'm going to be gone for the weekend but I'll probably take one more good listen to these on Sunday evening, and possibly Monday, before making a final decision.
I want to play a couple of CDs with male voices and I want to play some rock. But, I had a good 2 1/2 to 3 hours with them tonight and gave both speakers a pretty good workout. I played several pieces more than once and played them with and without the subwoofer. I don't think that the subwoofer made all that much difference in the comparison, Edster, although the Ascends probably benefited from the sub more than the Lings. If you're playing strictly 2 channel music or you don't have a sub, this would be something to consider.
Also, in fairness, I think that the Ascends probably timbre match better with the M&K than do the Lings. (Hsu subs are regularly sold with the Ascends and M&K was Hsu's first gig, I understand.) Anyway, at this point, I'm leaning towards the Ascends because I've got full 5.1 channel surround sound and the Lings have not clearly outperformed the Ascends thus far, IMHO. More to come on Sunday.
The Lings are not taking a beating Edster faker. In fact, they're pretty dang good and at $400 bucks a pair, it's an incredible bargain. The opinions are mine, based upon my listening preference and my equipment. As they say in the stock business, your results may vary, blah blah blah. . .
"Tim, is that something that you've had happen with the Lings?"
No, I've not experienced that at all.
"As they say in the stock business, your results may vary..."
That really is it, isn't it? I wouldn't expect everyone to choose the Lings and your results indicate that each speaker does certain things well. So, it comes down to personal preference, as always.
It really depended on the music. As I stated in the one piece in "Out of Africa," the Lings sounded really on their game, very open, the drums and winds sounded like you were there. But, as I stated I wasn't using a sub and these speakers need one to throw a full soundstage. Even so, I would have to give the Lings the slight edge there without a sub. BUT, neither will do it for you if you don't use a sub and that's what both these speakers are designed for, I think, check with Tim.
I tried to check to see which speaker had the wider sweet spot and my set up is so limited and the room is no unaccoustical that I don't think either speaker gets a very fair chance to really demonstrate the depth or breadth of its soundstage. They were both great within about 10 feet of my preferred listening area. Hey, that's one of the dang problems we all face without spending tons on a dedicated listening area.
Midrange timbre - 2 speakers - no center. Timbre was difficult to access. See above on my room limitations but they are well timbre matched, if that's what you're asking.
Resolution - I would give the Ascends the slight edge. Hey, I know I sound like a speaker reviewer with no clear cut winner BUT these speakers do different things better and some things worse, BUT, nothing really poorly. So, I can't say it's unequivocal, go buy "X," cuz there's no "X" that's the best here.
" Even so, I would have to give the Lings the slight edge there without a sub. BUT, neither will do it for you if you don't use a sub and that's what both these speakers are designed for, I think, check with Tim."
My original goal was a small box with full sound for smaller rooms. I sell products in the Philippines where many homes have small rooms so that was a major consideration. Following that, home theater which, in this case, means identically voiced speakers with a subwoofer handling the LFE. The long throw of the Ling's "woofer" can provide all the dynamics you would ordinally want in home theater when crossed at 80Hz or above. I have experienced the Lings being placed close to a back wall in an average size room driven by a Plinius 8100 and you would swear there must be a sub hiding somewhere. Most people would not use a $2000 amp with $400 speakers though.
Well,HI guysI have been resting the last couple of days I feel better and im in a better mood.Thanks for the advice Joseph.David, Nora Jones voice is supposed to sound kind of sand paper like at the top of her vocal range.Most budget speakers dont capture that,so that means the Lings are doing it the right way they are capturing the midrange details without glossing over them.That seemed like it was done correct,so it seems that the Ascends arent capturing the midrange details as good as the Lings.
Well, just checking in. I'll listen to Norah again on Sunday evening and see if I get "sandpaper" quality on the midrange. Thanks for the advice, guys.
Round 3 did not occur as planned. I got home from work late and the Denon 2200 was there. After getting it set up, I needed to buy a digital audio coaxial and once connected the two Denons decided not to play nice. The 2200 took over on screen display efforts so I couldn't get into the 3803 and get it to change the DVD player input to accept the coaxial cable.
After mucho time online looking for a solution on Denon's webstite, an email to Denon and some other research, I found a forum post that discussed a similar problem and I was finally able to get the 3803 to accept the audio coaxial input. So, at 11:15 p.m., I finally had sound. (Geez 7:00 a.m. comes early when you get to bed after midnight with frustration in your head.)
Anyway, I can report that the 2200 makes an incredible difference in CD sound. I played a couple of cuts off Diana Krall and the Mo-Tab choir, since I had listened to them the night before and you would have thought it was a completely different system. The 5.1 channel sound was much fuller and had a bigger soundstage and better detail. The stereo sound was clearer, fuller and just sounded more real. So, I have to give these speakers one last shot with a decent player and connections sending the music their way. Should have a better report tonight or tomorrow at the latest. I think that the sound difference may play into the Lings' strengths BUT only the Shadow knows.
Well i would have to say,and I know Im gonna get plenty of heat for this but hey I always get heat,so here goes with the Lings crossover point and looks like Scanspeak Revalator woofers and Seas tweaters,with the Nora Jones comments it seems that the Lings are the much better and more realistic speaker.
It was an inexpensive JVC progressive scan DVD player that doubled as CD player. No DACs to speak of and I thought it was decent until I heard music through the Denon. Now, the video isn't affected much as I did take a quick look at LOTR II just to see if there was as big of an improvement with video. Answer, not really, pretty minor in fact.
T-Man, welcome back. Hey, I won't give you any heat at all. As I represented at the beginning of this, I HAVE LIMITED LISTENING AND AUDITIONING EXPERIENCE AND CHOICES HERE IN SPOKALOO!!!
So, you're getting an "uneducated" A/B and I can only go by what I hear and what appeals to me. The Lings will get another chance to show their stuff with the new 2200 and, I suspect, that the Denon 2200 may make them the much better choice as I listen more with a much better source component. We'll see soon.
I gotta go with TW on this. It sounds like for my tastes the Lings are out ahead. Also from the research I've done I just believe that they are the real deal.
As good as that Denon is, it still falls short of a good dedicated player for redbook playback. Denon sure makes a mean universal player though.
Sounds like you're having some fun with it all David. I'm glad to hear that.
It's an interesting exercise. David isn't a "pro" reviewer, but his opinions are valid. In other words, readers don't have to agree with a "pro" reviewer's opinion. You have to hear the gear for yourself, over time, at home. That's what I've learned from the internet direct companies.
Well, Round 3 is in the books. Art, if this is mediocre playback, I'll take it. Both speakers really benefitted from the insertion of the Denon 2200 in the system. I'm sure you have all experienced it as you've upgraded systems.
I guess to explain the difference, I'll use the Mo-Tab choir CD. I listened to it on Monday because I was at one of their concerts recently. I reported that I was very disappointed with the CD, I just felt it must have been poorly recorded because the music was lifeless. Add the Denon and, suddenly, it sounded like they had added 2/3s of the choir and an orchestra, instead of a few muted instruments.
As I suspected, the Lings benefitted from the new component more than did the Ascends, although both continue to sound incredibly good. The Lings continue to sound warmer and the addition of the Denon made this sound even more pleasing to my ears. (My wife and daughter continue to favor the Ascends without a question.) Tim, is there a treble bias among women listeners in your experience?
As previously reported, the Ascends have a better treble sound, it's clearer and cleaner. The Denon seemed to warm this sound up a bit, which was more pleasing to my ears. The biggest change, though, for both speakers was the soundstage and presence with the better player. The Lings' midrange continued to be very good but some of the "muddiness" I described earlier was gone and just pure, clear instruments and vocals were heard. The men's voices on the Lings became stronger, clearer and just filled the room. I had to drop the receiver a few clicks to balance the sound, which was interesting because I had been going in the other direction, previously. Anyone have an explanation for that one?
GEEZ, this is where Don nails me for falling back to the professional reviewer mode. PICK EITHER ONE!!!! Listen to your system and if you're lacking clarity and clean highs, then grab the Ascends and try them out. If your highs are too bright and your midrange is disappointing, give Tim a call and audition the Lings. If you're bass is muddy, buy a new subwoofer because neither of these speakers will solve that problem, although the Lings will help it more than the Ascends.
THE BOTTOM LINE. First, thanks, Tim, for letting me conduct this experiment. If I were listening, primarily to 2 channel sound or 2.1, I suspect I would prefer the Lings at this time. I would sacrifice some of neutral, clear treble for that warmer, IMHO, sweeter midrange sound.
BUT, like my DVD player, this system has to function in HT mode 60% of the time and Ascend makes a great center channel and I've got 5 of their speakers already in the house and my wife and kids are blown away by the improved sound. So, I'll keep the Ascends and I'll send the Lings back to Tim with some dismay that they must leave me. The Lings are an incredibly good speaker.
BUT, I'll not dispair too much. The whole point of my start down this path back with Art and Edster initially was to improve my sound. The difference in my system's sound quality and video from beginning to end is nothing short of dramatic. I've learned quite a bit along the way, I've learned how to get stubborn components to get along and the point is to enjoy the journey and find pleasure in the destination. I've accomplished that AND in about 2-3 years when I do this again, I'll call Tim sooner and see what he has in his hot little hands before I go and buy a bunch of other speakers. So, there you have it, I'm done, Round 3 is done and, I suspect, this thread is done after you guys give me crap for not calling a clear winner. LOL!!!
P.S. - Anyone want to buy some Boston Acoustic CR6s and a Polk Center? ROTFL now.
Thanks for spending your time and energy doing this comparison. I'm not disappointed at all. It's nice to have a clearly independent and unbiased source confirm what I've been saying on this forum for several months now. As for women and favoring treble over bass, I face it daily. My wife is the same way. She has a little stereo in her "art room" where she paints and listens to opera. The speakers have no bass at all but have a forward and lively mid-range which she loves.
John McA
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Not to go off on a tangent, but ...
How are you coming on a center channel or surround speakers for the Ling, Tim?
That's a very thoughful last paragraph. It's great that you enjoyed the journey and learned from it. It sounds like Tim's speakers are right for a lot of people (and real wood too!) and I don't think will shy away because of your review. Good job!
At least our Ascends withstood another test. Tim's speakers seem awfully good, so I guess the Ascends are pretty good as well for the price.
I think you wife and daughter look at the ascends and think "this is a crappy looking speaker" and thus their expectations are lowered and they are pleasantly surprised when they hear them. It is all psychological. (Just kidding).
I put my ascends in the living room recently and my wife complained! It was just to compare with the Axioms.
Thanks for recognizing that this hobby is supposed to be fun first. And, I failed to mention the most important point, I made a bunch of friendly acquaintances along the way. BUT, just to clear up one issue, and Tim has talked to the reviewer about correcting it, the Lings are not "real wood." Tim can discuss this further but they are a veneer of some sort. Having said that, they definitely win the "pretty" test over the homely Ascends. Amazingly, I assumed that my lovely wife would be won over solely on the appearance issue and she does think they're much better looking, Tim.
Paul would be wrong as usual, Don. I made the call, although as i told Tim privately, if i had 5 Lings sitting in my room and 2 Ascends, this might have ended differently, it was that close. I'll look forward to running into Tim sometime when I'm on the westside and seeing what he has up his sleeve for his next trick, that should be an awesome next speaker.
(I would hope that Tim might consider something a little further "upscale", a reference challenger, that is, after he completes his center channel and subwoofer projects.
>"How are you coming on a center channel or surround speakers for the Ling, Tim?"
The cabinets for the center channel are being built now and I will need to do final testing to make sure the crossover is correct. Should be ready by August 1. As for surrounds, I recommend using Lings or the Ling Singles.
>"BUT, just to clear up one issue, and Tim has talked to the reviewer about correcting it, the Lings are not "real wood."
Yep, my website has always said "real wood veneer". I never claimed they were solid wood and I asked Ed to fix that in the review.
>I would hope that Tim might consider something a little further "upscale", a reference challenger, that is, after he completes his center channel and subwoofer projects.
Emma(2-way monitor)is coming, hopefully September and I'm planning on having it demo'd at CES in January.
Ah lunchtime has arrived. David, it sounds like you enjoyed the Ling's. The fact that you stated a different preference for 2 channel listening than home theater use was informative. Thank you for giving us all of the feedback.
Tim, is there a place in Seattle where these speakers can be heard? I may consider them for my second system.
Okay guys, sorry for perpetuating the "real wood" line. Glad to be corrected on that. Most quality speakers aren't "real wood" and are veneered MDF or plywood. I just thought maybe Tim's low production quantities allowed him (or forced him) into using real wood.
I'm guess-timating Emma will be around $800 per pair. It will use a 6" mid woofer (long throw, neodymium motor with a wide FR and exceptional cone control) along with a very high quality soft dome tweeter, also with a neo motor, very high and flat FR and excellent off-axis performance. Emma will play full range 30Hz to 25kHz and have a more traditional XO point of 3500Hz. I'm making my own terminal cup for it because I can't find anyone that makes one the way I want it. High quality Euro style that accepts banana, spade and bare wire.
>Tim, is there a place in Seattle where these speakers can be heard? I may consider them for my second system.
Only my house.
Quinn
Unregistered guest
Posted on
On needing to adjust the volume. To be correct in your comparison you should be using a sound meter and getting the two companies' speakers w/in a 1.5 dB of each other or the volume difference can skew what you are hearing. The two speakers are 3dBs different in sensitivity.
Some swear that listening to a single speaker in mono is very revealing and one of the best tests.
Is your testing with or without a sub? If without a sub, are you going to do some listening with a sub?
Keep having fun with this. You're doing a great job.
Away back when, on another thread, I mentioned that I didn't have a sound meter so, again, it's just my "best guess" as to sound level for the speakers. I auditioned with and without subs, although I would estimate 70% of the listening was 2 channel. I believe the Ascends sounded better with my sub, your sub and listening experience may differ. Part of that stemmed from the Lings having the better bass reproduction as stand alones.
My real point on the loudness had to do with the Lings sound with and without the Denon 2200. Before I put it in the equation, the Lings reproduced midrange very well and male vocals, more bass than tenor, had a definite loudness advantage, say listening at -24 versus turning up the volume for female vocals to like -20. After the 2200 was added, this was closer to equal volume or the male vocals had to be increased in volume to get the "same" subjective loudness. Anyone care to take that one on?
Now, about the keep doing this part. I think Tim wants his speakers back or, trust me, I would continue to have fun and the Lings would migrate downstairs to my 2 channel system where my old receiver is headed with a dedicated CD player.
Finally, Tim, I'm thinking in about a year or so, after the wife has forgotten some of these purchases, I'm going to have to get to know "Emma" much better. LOL!!!
I too noticed I could listen at louder volumes when I upgraded to the 2200's successor, the 2910.
It seemed to just even out the sound, making everything sound better as the volume increased. Especially on my crap Panasonic DVD player there was a lot of background noise and hiss the Denon made disapear.
You are absolutely correct about the ability to play at louder volumes with the Denon. I attribute that to the fact that it doesn't hum, hiss, etc. in part. Also, it seems to create a much fuller sound, broader soundstage and so you hear more and can increase the loudness without causing fatigue or worse. I described it as being "warmer" as opposed to "brighter" although I don't know if those are exactly the right words.
Again, though, that's not exactly the effect I am trying, poorly I might add, to describe. Same CD, same volume level initially. Played with the JVC, the women's voices, while listening to either set of speakers, were louder than the men's voices. In other words, I had to turn up the volume slightly to subjectively match the sound levels when only the men were singing.
Add the Denon to the mix and the effect was exactly the opposite. The men's voices were louder than the women's. Again, the second effect with the Denon was more noticeable on the Lings, which I could attribute somewhat to the Lings midrange getting more punch or something, what I had described earlier as somewhat "muddy" in an earlier post, had become absolutely warm, wide and wonderful. (I love it when I can sneak in a trilogy in writing.) :-) BUT, the real effect that interested me was the inversion in the subjective loudness of the male and female vocals with and without the Denon. Can't quite figure that one out, are you there Tim the speaker technician?