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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 43 Registered: Jul-05 | Is there an advantage to having a mid range horn instead of a speaker? Klipsch higher end models seem to boast a horn. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4710 Registered: May-04 | A horn is an acoustic transformer which offers an advantage in pushing air to create sound pressure when compared to the usual technique of a dynamic driver. You can somewhat think of a horn loaded driver as having a surface area that is equivalent to the dimensions of the horn's face/port. That much surface area goes a long way to moving lots of air with relative ease by comparison to a 4" cone driver. However, horns have severe limitations and problems also. There is no free lunch and with each advantage there will likely be two disadvantages. Disadvantages can often be mitigated by more money being spent but the laws of physics still exist to bring you back to reality. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4711 Registered: May-04 | Put "horn loaded driver" into a search engine and find out more about the advantages and disadvantages. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1072 Registered: Feb-04 | Neil, I use Klipsch gear and quite like it. Having said that, it's true that Klipsch speakers are somewhat bright and recognisable until you get into the upper end of the line-up. However they are quite releaving and some people prefer the sound. I have Klipschorns and find them quite neutral but revealing in detail. A lot of people say the same of RF-7 as well. An advantage to horns is very high efficiency, meaning it takes little power to drive them. That might mean you can skip buying a separate power amp and spend yet a little more on the speakers. :-) Horns are very efficient because the coupling between the vibrating diaphram and the outside air is gradual. In grad school in a fluid mechanics course, I once had to work what is the best shape of an acoustic transducer to transfer energy and it turned out to an exponential horn; made me chuckle about my Klipsch speakers. The higher efficiency of the horns has to be balanced by high efficiency on the bass as well. That's why I prefer fully horn-loaded speakers such as the La Scala and Klipschorn. Horn-loaded bass is also 'dry' or 'tight', and some people interpret it as a lack of bass when they first experience it because it's not as boomy (It has very low harmonic distorsion). Jan knows a lot about them too; I recall they sold them once upon a time. Some of the claimed problems like horn ringing can by tweaked by cheap rope caulk. I'll admit it something that I plan to do (it's cheap so why not) but I rarely listen at ultra high volume so it's not a problem I've ever noticed. Another advantage to horns is fairly easy to obtain imaging. Just point the horn at the ears and you're done. The imaging on Klipschorns and La Scala's is fantastic. Lastly, the big old horn can actually use up less floor space than bookshelf speakers. Horn-loaded speakers work best close to corners while small bookshelf speakers work best a few feet away from corners and walls, well into the room. So the huge horn-loaded speaker tucks away in the corner and can actually look more like furniture than a speaker. While the Heritage lineup of Klipsch speakers can still be purchased new ($5000 for La Scala, $7000 for Klipschorns), most people buy them used ($1800 to $3000 for 10 to 30 year-old Klipschorns). They still enjoy a very strong following. |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 45 Registered: Jul-05 | I read that the midrange (1Khz to 4 Khz) should be handled by one speaker. I might be able to go for pre-owned Klipsch Heresy of Fortes that have a mid range horn. |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 46 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, The only negatives that I could find concerned the high directionality of the horn system. Most webpages praised the sound quality of horns. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1074 Registered: Feb-04 | Fortes should be fantasic. I'd love to hear some. I have a single Heresy used as center speaker with Klipschorns in front and La Scala surrounds. The Heresy is nice but a little lacking in the low end (not being horn-loaded bass). The Forte has stronger bass, yet isn't bloasted from what I'm told. The 15 inch passive radiator does its work. But it limits placement a bit; you need a bit of space between it and the rear wall. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4715 Registered: May-04 | Directionality is a problem with horns but also an advantage. An overriding purpose for choosing a horn loaded driver is the ability of the horn mechanism to project sound into an area with controlled directionality. It cuts down on reflections that muddy the sound and interfer with microphones when horns are used in a live sound reinforcement situation. As I said, for every advantage there is a disadvanatge and what might be considered advantageous for one user is exactly what another user desires. Add to your list the sharp cutoff at the resonant frequency at the top and bottom of a horn's range. Once again this can be used to advantage by a skilled designer and made into an abomination at the fists of a hack. Since the horn is the acoustic transducer, as Peter stated, the sound of the horn is included in the sound of the speaker system. Any material that is set in motion by air pressure or mechanical pressure will vibrate and hence create a resonance. This signal must be included in the calculations for the overall frequency response of the speaker system and, if so desired, accounted for in the final product. Matching the sound of one driver to another (mid to tweeter in direct radiators) is difficult enough. Now add to the equation matching the sound of the driver plus the horn mechanism and you've added more complications than most novice designers can handle. Building even a simple horn that is minimally non-resonant is a feat that requires skill and more money than screwing a dome midrange driver into a rabbeted panel. Add to the equation the ideal of an expotential horn and the skill, time and cost go up expotentially. I could go on, but you should get the idea. Horns offer advantages and disadvantages. Peter gets upset when I dis Klipsch, but the Forte is a rather horrible speaker in my opinion. It was not designed by Paul Klipsch and offers none of the advantages of the Klipsch line that preceded its introduction. By the time the Forte was designed Paul was merely driving his Mercedes past the factory once and again to check on how things were going. While the Heresy belongs to the more or less original Klipsch line, I leave it to you to guess why the smallest Klipsch speaker was named "The Heresy". |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1075 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, actually I've never heard a Forte, but it has many followers on the Klipsch forum. AFAIK, the Heresy is so named because it wasn't fully horn-loaded (which was a heresy). Since I only have one of them, it's hard for me to critique in a meaningful way. It sure makes a nice center speaker for Klipschorns! (until I want to upgrade to a vertical Cornwall). I'll try to not get upset when you dis Klipsch! I am getting better! ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4716 Registered: May-04 | Peter - Paul Klipsch preferred the Belle Klipsch, named after his wife, be the center for a pair of Horns. The LaScalla is an acceptable alternative since it is the same driver/horn combination as the Belle in a less dressed up cabinet. The Cornwall, like the Heresy, is another non-horn loaded bass cabinet that sounds like it is a non-horn loaded bass cabinet. As to the Forte, they sold well; go figure?! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1079 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, Yeah, I know the Belle was meant for that. But actually, the La Scala has identical components than the Klipschorn and the Belle has a different (shorter) mid-horn and a different crossover point. This makes the La Scala a better match, in theory anyway. But I don't have room for a La Scala over my current TV except sideways, which is way too directional. A Belle wouldn't fit either and would look silly up in the air anyway. A vertical Cornwall would fit nicely on the horizontal. :-) As for bass matching... Well I could set it to small if needed. Perhaps I'll be able to fit a Belle in the future by putting a flat screen over it. :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4717 Registered: May-04 | A Cornwall set to "small". Ha! Thanks, I needed that today. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1080 Registered: Feb-04 | It's all a matter of what crossover frequency you use. :-) I could set the Klipschorn to small with the crossover at 40 Hz with little ill effects I suppose. Anyway, an HT system based on Klipsch Heritage also works very well because of the dynamic range of soundtracks. They often go from way quiet to way loud, and the system handles it without breaking a sweat. I'd wager it sounds better than Paul's CV+Bose combo as well! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4719 Registered: May-04 | I'd wager a lot of systems sound better than Paul's CV+Bose combo. |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 47 Registered: Jul-05 | Interesting. How is the bass loaded on the LaScalas? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4720 Registered: May-04 | The LaScalla is a folded horn that does not require corner loading like the Klipschorns do. The same basic components are in both speakers and the efficiencies are the same. The Horn offers slightly deeper bass extension while the LaScalla offers convenience in placement. To me the difference in sound was minimal on most material and the LaScalla saved lots of dollars. |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 49 Registered: Jul-05 | What prevents me from building my own speakers with three drivers and a crossover box from Audiogon? Is this more an art than a science? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4722 Registered: May-04 | "What prevents me from building my own speakers with three drivers and a crossover box from Audiogon?" Living in an igloo with no electricity? Doing time for triple homicide with no access to sharp implements? I give up. What? Buying a prepackaged speaker kit is a basic no brainer. The only problem is you can't hear them before you buy the stuff to make them and spend the time actually making them. Buying parts at random, a X-over and a box and hoping for the best is about like setting out to climb a mountain with a pair of tennis shoes and desire. Yes, speaker design is an art. Speaker assembly is not. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/150951.html |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 52 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, What type of system do you have? |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 57 Registered: Jul-05 | I observed that if one goes to a rock concert there are usually large amps with horns; however at the philharmonic there is no such setup. Does this mean that horns are better at delivering a powerful aggressive sound and that orchestral music is best delivered through round drivers? If one wished to amplify the orhestra for mass dipsersion would he choose horns? |
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Bronze Member Username: OccamPost Number: 58 Registered: Jul-05 | To add to my previous post--from what I've read it shouldn't make any difference. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4738 Registered: May-04 | Dispersion is the vile enemy in professional sound reinforcement. Dispersion puts sound into areas where you don't want it (like feeding back into microphones) and wastes energy that can be better used in a defined, directed fashion. Horns put sound into an area, if you can control where that area exists, you have half the battle won in pro sound. When the symphony does their outdoor concerts, they probably have horn loaded drivers to get the sound out over a long distance with not much energy being wasted going to the sides. My system is mostly made up from pieces I've acquired over the years. For the past twenty five years my main two channel system has used vacuum tube pre amps and power amps and fairly small studio monitor loudspeakers. |