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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 72 Registered: Jun-05 | I really was impressed by the imaging of the Focal JMlab Chorus 706 S. What other speakers around the same price range impressed you because of their fantastic imaging? |
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Anonymous | Athena ASF2.2 |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1018 Registered: Feb-04 | When you guys play your system in stereo for someone, do they swear that the lead vocals are coming from your center speaker (when it's not playing)? Or does it simply center there without giving the impression of coming from there? |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 73 Registered: Jul-05 | Tim: If you want my advice, I'd say go for the 706's. They've already separated themselves from a pack of very respectable speakers, and more importantly they meet all your criteria that you have for a speaker. I'd say run with them, before you drive yourself nuts. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4687 Registered: May-04 | Peter - ? |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 73 Registered: Jun-05 | Hey DA - you are probably right about driving myself nuts! But I want to hear the B&W DM 601/2 S3's - I have a feeling that they might have what I liked about the PSB Image B25 combined with what I liked about the Focal JMlab 706 S! And now I am trying to talk the guy into ordering the Chorus 707 S! I promise I will make a decision after hearing those speakers! I think I am shying away from Paradigm altogether - if I were to get the Studio 20's I would just go ahead and get the PSB Image B25's, which I enjoyed as much, for $200 less. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 74 Registered: Jun-05 | I want punchiness and liveliness with the ability to close my eyes and point to the violinist, guitarist or singer! The PSB's had the former but not the latter - and the JMlabs had the latter while lacking the former! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 316 Registered: May-05 | Hey, I hate to be Paul here. But just stack the PSBs on the JMLabs and you've got your speakers and necessary characteristics, at only twice the price. LOL Now that said, I'd be very interested to see where you finally come down Tim after all this speaker listening and wandering and wondering. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 424 Registered: Jun-05 | Tim ,how many threads are you gonna start in 24 hours?Look we have given you at least 20 suggestions.The bottom line is what do you like?If you are not sure go and listen to the other 20 speakers we suggested.Dam you are drive all of us crazy! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4689 Registered: May-04 | http://www.magnepan.com/_mmg.php Though I have to agree with Tawaun. How'd that happen? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 425 Registered: Jun-05 | Well strange things do happen sometimes. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 75 Registered: Jun-05 | Tawaun, this thread is specifically about imaging, if you have not noticed. I have started a few threads, but this is the first one of it's kind and I think it warrants a separate thread because it IS a separate subject. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1021 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, I'm asking about strength of imaging. Do you have to close your eye and concentrate a bit to be able to point center to the lead vocalist, perhaps to bit fuzzy area? Or would you swear that the center speaker is working because the voice is coming from a point source from the center? |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 74 Registered: Jul-05 | For me I don't have to close my eye and concentrate, it sounds like its coming from dead center. But at the same time I can tell the center isn't playing. Unfortunately I don't have anyone come listen to my system to comment and my wife doesn't care about that stuff or indulge my audio fantasies in any way. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 426 Registered: Jun-05 | Timothy you are still asking the same questions,look we already went over this the 706s will give you what you want,they just need to break in and the bass will fill out. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1022 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks DA. I'm not keeping a list, so that's using what speakers? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 427 Registered: Jun-05 | Ok everyone this a imagimg and soundstaging thread! {]Timothy just said so} I think he has finally settled on the Chorus 706s |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 76 Registered: Jul-05 | CSW Model Sixes; aka el cheapo. They seem to do better running them full range as opposed to with a sub too. Don't know why exactly... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4691 Registered: May-04 | Peter - As usual I'll be a bit picky and suggest that "center fill " is not necessarily "imaging". But what I hear from my system is dependent on the source. All my systems are capable of reproducing what the source has recorded. In my two channel system there is no problem with the ability to "see what is (not) there" whether we're talking about instruments or vocalists. In my HT system, I'm not as concerned because that big box in between the speakers is going to mess with the sound no matter what else I do. What I hear in that system in no way competes with the stereo system. Since I dislike most of the matrixed suround formats I listen to anything not in Dolby Digital as a stereo source. I have no problem placing voices with the appropriate actor and when I play music sources the signal is quite acceptable as a stereo "soundstage". Just not what I have in the main two channel system. No one has ever commented on the center speaker being on. Maybe because they assume I wouldn't turn it off. Maybe because a lot of my friends just don't give a crap about audio as long as they can hear the explosions. Maybe I need some new friends. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 433 Registered: Jun-05 | Well I guess you need home theater buddies and HiFi buddied split up like your 2 systems |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1376 Registered: Mar-05 | Tim D., Imaging, like many other aspects of speaker performance, can depend very much on the quality of your power source. I experienced what Peter described as "lead vocals sounding as if they're coming from your center speaker" in 2-channel with my Ascends only when I hooked them up to the NAD separates...never with the Marantz receiver. |
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Bronze Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 29 Registered: Jul-05 | true true on that edster, Id go with Athena speakers for that price range. Nice big performance and clarity with great imaging |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 76 Registered: Jun-05 | Ed, so what you are telling me is that most surround sound receivers are poor stereo receivers? Which ones are not? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1026 Registered: Feb-04 | I get that kind of point source imaging using an h/k avr-325 receiver and a DVD player as source CD player (center vocals or off-center instruments; the vocals being simply a nice example that leads to surprising situations with guests). I've had about 10 friends in the last few months fooled by it. I play something like 3 tracks and then comment that of course the center speaker is off; they are amazed. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 322 Registered: May-05 | A few people touched on the idea that imaging can be dictated by components, but it can also be heavily influenced by room acoustics and placement. Just because one speaker imaged better in a store than another doesn't mean that's how it's going to image or sound in your home. IMO the room is the most important component in the system. It can make a mediocre system sound very good, or a great system sound horrible. No matter how good the system is, if the speakers aren't set up right, you're never going to hear it's potential. Moving my stereo from my living room to my attic game room taught me how important room acoustics and speaker placement really are. It sounds like a completely different system. I'm still trying to figure out the whole set-up myself. I've got a few tricks up my sleeve, but don't want to hijack a thread. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1029 Registered: Feb-04 | Good point Stu. I remember a very long post Jan posted a while back describing how he setup speakers for client. It was very involved! A friend of mine bought speakers based on the imaging he heard in the store and was never able to reproduce it at home. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 326 Registered: May-05 | Every store would probably love to set up the speakers the right way in their listening room, and most likely know how to. The problem is that they usually have too many space restrictions, and reserve the best areas to properly set up the equipment for the most expensive systems. Not that I'm criticising that, but just trying to tell me own personal observations. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 437 Registered: Jun-05 | I must admit, I am a imaging and soundstageing junkie,it can have a very profound effect on you,and the way the music is presented to you. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1031 Registered: Feb-04 | Edster wrote: I experienced what Peter described as "lead vocals sounding as if they're coming from your center speaker" in 2-channel with my Ascends only when I hooked them up to the NAD separates...never with the Marantz receiver. Pretty impressive that such an affordable speakers pulls it off! Good stuff! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4692 Registered: May-04 | " ... this thread is specifically about imaging, if you have not noticed. I have started a few threads, but this is the first one of it's kind and I think it warrants a separate thread because it IS a separate subject." Timothy, please read what you wrote. You are correct, "imaging", as it is used in the context of this thread, IS a separate subject. As are punchiness, bass extension and transparency, etc. Each is a strength you will encounter to varying degrees in every product you listen to. Unfortunately you can't have all of those things. No matter how much you pay, there will always be tradeoffs and compromises. As a listener it is your job to make the decision which strengths you are willing to tradeoff for something of lesser value. When your system budget becomes anything less than overly extravagant, your system requirements have to shift to adjust for that reality. To pursue one or two objectives with interest is a reasonable beginning to a first system. To pursue one or two objectives almost to the exclusion of other qualities is a poor way to start a first system. Focussing on any singular strengths in a budget system will, most often, result in you tiring of the system much sooner than if you weigh all qualities with equal value. Searching for the best "imaging" is somewhat futile as this will be the result of forces outside the loudspeaker designer's control. Searching for "punch" can result in a system with too much of its own character being present at all times. From my experience with clients, those who seek particular aspects of a component's sound most often fail to find the music while they search for the hifi. They end up on a merry go 'round of components as they seek one after the other "qualities" of an audio system. Many "audiophiles" that begin like this end up listening to a few cuts on this disc and one cut on that disc because those are the pieces that show off their system. They seldom end up listening to an entire disc for the music that is there. You sound very much like customers I had in search of their first system. They've read the magazines and know the language. They want the perfect system that does what they read about in the reviews. Since they're on a limited budget, they feel justified in being very particular about what they choose. Their's is a search that drives everyone nuts. I wrote in another thread that the hardest sell in audio is the product that doesn't impress the listener. Products that impress with this or that quality are easy to sell to the client looking for that quality. However, they tend to wear thin over time. It is easy to sway a client from another brand by shifting their attention to something else. A component with terrific imaging does well as long as the music you play has terrific imaging. And until you begin to realize you gave up something equally as valuable to get that imaging. On the other hand, products which do not jump out and grab the listener to impress with anything but music tend to get much better over time. You're well on your way to picking what you want to own, so don't let this sway you from your charted course. Just realize an evenly balanced system is much easier on the ears than one that always makes its presence known with its great "qualities". |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1034 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, that's an interesting post but be careful not to celebrate mediocrity! :-) Sometimes, excellence in a quality doesn't have to come at the expense of something else. A speaker average in evertything won't be less fatiguing than an average speaker in everything except excellent in imaging. Right? My current speakers are the first I've owned or listenned to that let me listen to music completely without thinking about speaker difficiencies. I just listen to the music, relish in the soundstage, the accuracy of the instruments, the detail of fingers rubbing against the bass strings, the slam of the drum and the "airyness" of percussions. |
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Silver Member Username: StoneWest CoastUSA Post Number: 167 Registered: Dec-03 | If you have the power to drive them and the room to place them correctly, for that price the Magnapans are worth giving a try. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 331 Registered: May-05 | Tim - How many different speakers have you heard? I'm not trying to be rude, but you've had speaker comparison threads going on for a couple of months now. What do you care what a bunch of jokers on a message board think of the speakers? Are you buying them as a gift for us, or are they going in your house. I understand shopping around and taking your time to make sure you're getting exactly what you want, but it seems like our approval of the speakers you're going to buy are the most important thing here. We can't make up your mind for you. I really don't mean any disrespect at all by this (I know it seems that way), but all of this is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. It seems like it's causing more stress than anything else. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 77 Registered: Jun-05 | That's not it - I DID listen to speakers the other day - and rather than waste time listening to others, I'd rather tell you guys what I listened to and what I liked and disliked about them, so that perhaps you guys could suggest that I listen to a particular speaker that may have a combination of what I like about the speakers that I have listened to thus far. I could either listen to everything for months and months and months - or have you guys point me in the direction of a few and make the decision a lot sooner. I look at you guys as a wealth of knowledge, but I'd never buy speakers or not buy speakers because somebody here liked them - like I said, I wasn't much more impressed with the Paradigm Studio 20's than I was with the PSB Image B25's for nearly half the cost. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 332 Registered: May-05 | Thanks for not getting offended. It really wasn't my intention. I understand what you're saying, but it's going to be impossible to listen to everything that's mentioned here. Unless you truly haven't found something worthwhile (which can and does happen), I'd say evaluate what you can listen to without having to make some serious road trips. Always remember to have fun with it. It's not worth it if you don't. PS - I'm a huge PSB fan, and can't agree with you more on the PSB vs. Paradigm issue. The higher end stuff is somewhat a different matter though. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Post Number: 333 Registered: May-05 | Sorry to keep posting - I read that you said you want to hear the B&W's because they may combine the other two. Personally, I don't think this is going to happen. From the ones I've heard, the B&W's are noticably 'duller' than PSB's. If you liked the 'punch and presence' of the PSB's, you most likely won't like the B&W's. Relative to the PSB's, I found B&W's to be more analytical, or dry. Not that they're overly so, but next to PSB there's a huge difference. I'm not saying one is better than the other by any means, just that they're different. What I like about PSB's is that they seem more alive, whereas the B&W's didn't have this trait. Like I said, that's just me. Also to repeat what I said eariler, don't base you're opinion on imaging on what you heard in the store. The room and placement have just as much, if not more to do with this than the speakers themselves. I've learned this one first hand. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4696 Registered: May-04 | Peter - No one is celebrating mediocrity. I suggested that a balance of qualities be struck instead of hanging your hat on one or two virtues. Any one aspect of audio reproduction can be compared to seasoning on food. A toasty bruschetta with peppery olive oil, a whiff of garlic and a touch of coarse sea salt can be a meal in itself or a pleasant antipasto. A marinara sauce with a bit of salt can bring out the acidity of the fruit and brighten the sweetness of the basil. A bit more salt in the pasta water is necessary if the noodle is not to taste too flat. The prosciutto is heavily salted to dry the meat and intensify the flavor. Ricotta salata with its salty taste is a nice contorno when shaved over some arugula. However when it comes to salt over my peaches and red wine as a dolci, I draw the line. A pinch of salt in a sweet desert intensifies the flavor, but all seasonings can be over used. Balance in all things! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1045 Registered: Feb-04 | Gotcha Jan. No problem. I was just being my usual pedantic self. Sorry about that. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1381 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, > Pretty impressive that such an affordable speakers pulls it off! Good stuff! They really are a remarkable value, that's why I keep ranting about them...I see them as basically The Anti-Bose. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1047 Registered: Feb-04 | Starting to wish I had a pair in the living room. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 766 Registered: Mar-05 | Coming into this thread late, but that "hardest sell is what does not impress the listener" is what prompted me to throw "limited budget" out the window and get what pleased me and what will continue to please me. There was no wow factor in my purchase, just relaxing, wonderful sounds that made me want to just stay in that store all day long. As far as the best imaging, I guess that is relative to too many factors to decide on speakers alone. I have no input on that. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 78 Registered: Jun-05 | Got to hear the B&W DM602's vs the Paradigm Studio 20's tonight - and I definitely liked the B&W's better - I found the treble considerably more lively - I have read that some people think the B&W's treble is a bit too much for them, but I liked them. And the imaging reminded me of the Chorus 706's. I played an excellent recording of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 and there is this drum thing going on in "Molto Vivace - Presto" that is incredible - the B&W's really brought that part alive the way the JMlabs did - dead center and very articulate. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1373 Registered: Feb-05 | That's amazing as I bought the Paradigm Monitor series over the B&W 600 series. Makes me wonder about the electronics, room and other things. I believe that The 600 series has a bloated bottom end and lacks a detailed midrange. To each his own has new meaning to me. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1386 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, Well why not pay to enjoy them for 30 days? $20 (for return shipping) is what a rock concert ticket used to cost about 20 years ago, LOL. |
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Silver Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 104 Registered: Jul-05 | You can still get a ticket for 20 bucks; you'll just be in the nosebleed seats and the sound will suck is all (depending on the artist). I went to a Prince concert not too long ago that was pretty cool though even in the nosebleed section. Too bad the NPG opened for him. B@stards. |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 79 Registered: Jun-05 | Hey Art - you know more about this than I do - but I have read that you should be careful matching up certain speakers with certain electronics - apparently some just complement each other more than others. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1374 Registered: Feb-05 | Very true Timothy. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1067 Registered: Feb-04 | Edster, I'm affraid dealing with duties and brockerage fees crossing the border twice would cost about as much as the speaker itself! :-( |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1388 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, yikes, I forgot you're up yonder! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1073 Registered: Feb-04 | The Great White North... :-) (Except during summer...) |