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New member Username: GlibcPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-05 | Hi all, I've been spoiled these past couple of years (or cursed if I consider B&W pricing - 750 pounds for 5 602s... that's something like 1700 canadian pesos!). I've been enjoying 5 B&W 602 S3s (hooked up to an HK AVR8000). Now I need to purchase my own and while I found a good deal on an AVR8000, the B&Ws do not come cheap at all. I haven't auditionned many speakers but among the few that I did, I found many coloured the sound a lot (too much bass for the most part. I like the B&W sound (not much coloration, extreemly crisp, versatile in application etc..) and would like to stick with that but pricing is making it hard. Is that type of sound a trait that's unique to B&W or could I find it in some other brand? (NHT, Paradigm etc.) Thanks in advance, Sacha |
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Bronze Member Username: TwochordcoolPost Number: 53 Registered: Jun-05 | I heard the B&W DM601 S3's 2 weeks before I heard the Paradigm Mini Monitor and Monitor 3's - and though I know it's no way 2 do A/B comparisons, I can't "recall" them sounding too much different. They are about the same price, but they are less than the B&W DM602 S3's. Do you think the 602's are that much better than the 601's, to justify spending $150 USD more? |
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New member Username: GlibcPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-05 | Thanks for the reply Timothy, To be honest I don't know. I've grown accustomed to the sound of the 602s over 2 years and assume (maybe wrongfuly) that I would pick-up the difference if I went any lower. I didn't think the 601 was in the same league as the 602 so I didn't bother.I guess I have some homework to do (601 vs 602 audition). My guesstimate would be that the 602s will handle bass a little better given the 7" midrange (as opposed to 6.5"). This is a plus for me as I don't intend on getting a sub but for the $ - that's another story) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4619 Registered: May-04 | "I like the B&W sound (not much coloration, extreemly crisp, versatile in application etc..) and would like to stick with that but pricing is making it hard. Is that type of sound a trait that's unique to B&W or could I find it in some other brand?" Considering B&W is one of the most widely marketed (and sold) speakers in most of the free world, I'd have to say if it could be done for less money, someone in the free market of copying ideas would be doing it. And they aren't. B&W is B&W just as a Jaguar is a Jaguar. (Please, no "but it's reaaaaallllly a Ford"; you know what I mean). The market advantages B&W have are difficult for other manufacturers to compete against. While there are similarities between any speaker that strives for accuracy, each brand stands unique to its designer's goals, ambitions and capabilites. As Timothy suggested, you can listen to the speakers from the Canadian manufacturers. With their access to the National Research facilities, the Canadian maufacturers have a distinct advantage in turning out good product for less money. The Canadian dollar also has the advantage of not suffering from the current devaluation of the US dollar in the same way the British Euro must. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 181 Registered: Dec-04 | British Euro? Fortunately, there is no such thing. We still use the Pound Sterling and will continue to do so for all time, I hope. It is true that the US$ has been at a low level for some time, whilst the Canadian $ has done well. Jaguar sales to the US have fallen off somewhat as a result. The Canadian research facilities seem impressive whenever I read about them. Canadian speakers are a rarity in the British Isles though, so I cannot comment on comparative sound qualities. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkarebPost Number: 24 Registered: Jun-05 | OK I might stir some hornets nest here, there was an AV show last week and I've heard many demos, I was a big fan for B&W until I heard the Nautilus 802 floorstand, Big dissapointment! really dont deserve the price it command, it could be the way they set up the demo that made it sound so bad, I'm not sure but just wanna share. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4680 Registered: May-04 | diablo - I knew the term would get a response when I typed it. I assumed it would be John A. who let me know of my mistake. He's getting slow in his old age. Let me see if I understand the situation. The British are still using the Pound Sterling which until a few years ago, as a stand alone currency, was trading at around 1.5 US Dollars to get approximately 1 British Pound. Did the Pound then get tied to the Euro to help exacerbate the imbalance in currency exchange between the Dollar and the Pound which now trades at approx. 1 US Dollar to 1.33 Pound Sterling? What you guys in Europe are doing with your currencies has become difficult to keep up with since the switch to the Euro. On top of it all, now I have to consider what China is doing to the Dollar, among other things. Fortunately (?) US policy has made it very clear where the US Dollar occasionally stands and most often falls in the recent past. Would I have been better off saying "British Pound/Euro"? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 422 Registered: Jun-05 | Probably the way they had them set up,Im no B&W fan but the 802 has always been one of my favorite speakers.But maybe its you,the B&W sound is not everyones cup of tea,maybe its not yours,its a big issue over at audioreview is B&W all they are cracked to be.So maybe you should continue to listen to your ears about what a speaker is worth to you,because a company as big and conglamoriant as B&W are gonna have plenty of followers that would want to strangle you for defying their favorite brand,that has just as much pull as Bose. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4681 Registered: May-04 | From your link: "On 24 July 2005, £1.00 was worth US$1.74" So please ignore my backwards trading in the above post unless your looking to make some money. "The euro As a member of the European Union, the United Kingdom has the option of adopting the euro as its currency. However, the subject remains politically controversial, not least since the United Kingdom was forced to withdraw from its precursor, the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (see above). The pound did not join the Second European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II) after the euro was created. Unique to Denmark and the UK is an opt-out from entry to the euro. Technically, every other EU nation must eventually sign up; however, this can be delayed indefinitely (as in the case of Sweden) by refusing to join ERM II." Yes, well, that clears things up nicely!? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1017 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by: Considering B&W is one of the most widely marketed (and sold) speakers in most of the free world, I'd have to say if it could be done for less money, someone in the free market of copying ideas would be doing it. And they aren't. To see what I mean, substitute Bose instead of B&W... What makes you say that noone is doing what they are doing for less money? The B&W don't have a unique sound, do they? Wouldn't that be bad? Read no attack in my tone at all. I'm just wondering... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3497 Registered: Dec-03 | Just to say Hi. I am trying to take a more relaxed attitude, Jan. (If anyone is interested, UK, Sweden and Denmark are in the European Union but did not sign up to the Euro. Norway and Switzerland did not even join the EU. So all these five currencies are separate from the Euro.) Replying to Sacha's original question, Wharfedale is highly rated in serious mags over here, and a lot cheaper than B&W. Some will know my knee-jerk reflex, too: don't forget KEF. There are also some well-known "English" badges now put on all made-in-China speakers, including Mordaunt Short and Gale. Wharfedale and Quad are also under the same management, now, and are both Chinese made (Excepting the Quad ESLs) and owned. Whether the revaluation of the yuan is going to make everything Chinese 2 % more expensive in the US I do not know. B&W have an serious strategy for advertising and also more subtle brand placement, like the plug in the movie Traffic. Most people seem to agree they still deliver the goods, though. Personally I wonder about all this hype about diamond-piston hypertweeters and so on. That must cost a helluva lot, and if you can't hear anything all the way up there....?! KEF do "supertweeters" too. I think these are only on the really expensive models, in both cases. The other amazing thing, to me, is the sheer variety of lines within companies like B&W and KEF, all with overlapping price ranges. How do you choose between them? |
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New member Username: GlibcPost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-05 | Thanks for the advice everyone, very much appreciated! I've been looking at canadian manufacturers (though I'll check out Kef... thanks John.A) - some have told me that canadian manufacturers have access to the national research center facilities and are in general better supported then their foreign counterparts and, in turn, have some of the best speakers around. The construction of some worry me a bit though. For example: the Paradigm Monitor 3 has an injection-moulded co-polymer polypropylene cone (sounds like plastic to me). Also, I hardly see any bookshelf designs (5 bookshelfs fit nicely but 5 towers take a bit too much space...) It seems that, for canadian manufacturers, bookshelf models are either meant as low-end complement to main towers or very high end 2000/pair (Totem Model 1 or PSB platinum M2) I guess it all comes down to an A/B blind test of various bookshelf models; problem there is that most dealers will only carry a couple of brands (testing B&W against Totems or Paradigms for example is quite hard). Still, I'm hoping I can find a brand neutral audio shop. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3499 Registered: Dec-03 | Just to follow, I find this thread Wharfedale speakers - Diamond series. Good luck Sacha! My advice is don't buy speakers on where they are made. Buy them on whether they are any good. You might get better value from a local maker; you might not. "I can find a brand neutral audio shop" - that's the way to go, if you can. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4683 Registered: May-04 | A brand nuetral shop is pretty much an impossibility. Particularly in smaller markets, which would include any city smaller than Chicago, there is no such animal. Dealers carry certain brands to cover the spectrum of clients they want to draw to their shop. Carrying B&W and KEF would be money and stock room space wasted and would only serve to confuse the clients. Carrying KEF or B&W and Paradigm is more likely. As budgets have gotten tighter, the number of products, and products within a given line, have been pared down in most dealerships. I would suggest instead, finding the dealers with the best display facilities and those who are willing to offer an overnight or weeekend audition in your home. Use music you are familiar with to make the intial choices and then compare in the system and room they'll be used in. As far as brand neutral is concerned, I would ignore any salesperson who begins bad mouthing another product. Such behavior is in poor tase and shows no respect for the client who may like what they heard somewhere else. If possible, walk out of any shop that has an attitude they know better than you what is good and what is not. If there are products you want to hear and the salesperson doesn't get the message you don't want to hear how bad the other brand is, ask for a different salesperson. Make up your mind based on the sound you hear from the system not from the salesperson. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4684 Registered: May-04 | "For example: the Paradigm Monitor 3 has an injection-moulded co-polymer polypropylene cone (sounds like plastic to me)." Yes, it's plastic. There's no problem with that since poly drivers have been around for over 30 years and are used in some of the most respected speakers over that time period. There are different compounds of polymers that are combined into a speaker manuafacturers art to achieve certain results that are all but impossible in any other material. Poly, pulp, metal or ceramic; buy the speaker has no particular sound of its own and lets the music you enjoy be the main attraction. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4685 Registered: May-04 | "I like the B&W sound (not much coloration, extreemly crisp, versatile in application etc..)" "The B&W don't have a unique sound, do they? Wouldn't that be bad?" Hmmm, I doubt the two of you should go speaker shopping together. Peter, The B&W "sound" is as distinct as any other speaker's "sound". Since the same music played through any two speaker brands will not be reproduced exactly alike, I would have to say it's impossible to expect a speaker not to have a "sound". Speakers are transducers which convert electrical energy into mechanical energy. This process of conversion inherently involves losses and inaccuracies. Transducers are notoriously the most "colored" items in an audio system. The adventure of choosing which speaker to bring home is no more than a matter of deciding which losses you can tolerate and which colorations you enjoy. With that criteria in mind, B&W does an outstanding job of minimizing their losses and choosing their colorations well. No other speaker company at the same price point consistently does better over as many models. I think most B&W owners who pay attention to their "sound" could easily pick out a B&W speaker even when blindfolded. ************ " ... I'd have to say if it could be done for less money, someone in the free market of copying ideas would be doing it. And they aren't." "To see what I mean, substitute Bose instead of B&W... " Do I have to? I see your point and I stand by my statement. Bose and B&W have two things in common; massive advertising campaigns and massive legal departments. They weild they powers somewhat differently, however, though both are always ready to use either resource. (I'll let you decide which has crossed over to the Dark Side.) I've related the story several times on the forum concerning B&W's rise to international sales power in the late 1970's and early '80's. Until that time they were very competitive with KEF and Celestion as British speaker manufacturers. Speaker manufacturer in this instance meaning they designed and produced the raw drivers they used in their products. Unlike Rogers or Spendor, B&W built their speakers from the ground up with almost everything that went into a B&W product being built in house. In the 1970's as the British ecomony stagnated and the American ecomony heated up, if by nothing other than sheer size in both cases, B&W made the decision to aim their product not at the home market which was being swept by inverterate "tweakers" trying to get a bit more out of their old kit and headed across the pond with a new sound and a new marketing department. With a sound that combined a bit of American JBL swagger with the traditional British politeness, B&W sales took off in the fastest growing market in the world. Americans were ready to ditch their 15 year old Advents and EPI's and looked to the "digital ready, studio monitors" from England. Reagan was president and Americans were buying homes again (albeit at 18% interest from the S&L) and they needed new speakers to go with their new CD player and the new Family Great Room. Most of the ability to make this bold move to virtually ignore the home market paid off for B&W because they had the facilities to make the move without being dependent on someone else supplying product. B&W could design and build a speaker that appealed to the American market from the poly driver to the vapor deposit tweeter to the honeycomb enclosure. Their investment in computer technology in the early 1980's upped the ante for anyone wishing to compete in the same price range. The ability to design and build in this way sets apart those speaker manufacturers who design a speaker and those who simply assemble a speaker. And, where B&W took the high road to get to their destination, Bose took another route. ************** "What makes you say that no one is doing what they are doing for less money?" I say that because most speaker builders can't do what B&W can afford to do. It was a huge gamble that paid off handsomely for B&W in the 1980's. With that momentum they have become the innovator (the 800 lb. gorilla, if you will) that keeps them in front of the competition. A bit like Honda and Toyota, B&W keeps betting and winning. As a recent review in Stereophile indicated, overall there is really nothing to complain about when listening through a B&W speaker. Their name recognition is high even among non-audiophile types who see B&W's in many homes of audiophile friends. (Wouldn't you recommend a friend consider B&W over Bose?) And when it comes down to decision time, the salesperson can tell a heck of a story with any B&W speaker. I'll still stick with my statement; no one does it like B&W. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4688 Registered: May-04 | I seem to be having a terrible time today with a national "economy" and the various derivatives of this art. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1020 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, Only two comments on your well laid-out post. First, I've only ever heard B&W 801 and that was in a home in the US. I guess they don't seel as much here. But what I hear was very neutral and accurate. No real coloration that I could later recongnize. Second, if B&W can't be matched, then why isn't everyone on this forum buying them, or discussing others? Still wondering... But thanks for your thorough answer. |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 75 Registered: Jul-05 | "First, I've only ever heard B&W 801 and that was in a home in the US. I guess they don't seel as much here" Canada is a pretty tough market for them I imagine. "Second, if B&W can't be matched, then why isn't everyone on this forum buying them, or discussing others? " For as long as you've been posting here, you ought to know the answer. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1355 Registered: Feb-05 | I very much like the high end B&W speakers and I have 2 places to listen to them. But I don't think they compare to the Wilson Maxx 2 in any way. Very seldom do I agree with nearly every word of a review but this month's Stereophile hits the nail on the head relative to the Maxx 2. I could go on and talk about how much more I enjoy the Vandersteen Model 5A more than any B&W I've heard. B&W makes a great speaker but there are a whole lot better. There really isn't a B&W like speaker. I guess if forced to answer that I would say that some Mission speakers have similar characteristics to some B&W's. A fairly dry high end free from fatigue and a middle register that at first seems uncolored but upon closer inspection is really lacking detail or better yet life. Mission's are a little tighter on the bottom end than similar B&W's. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1024 Registered: Feb-04 | rhetorical question? Either that, or the B&W aren't the clear choice at every price point... |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 428 Registered: Jun-05 | But you really have to put it in context, B&W with the Matrix and Natilus series really controlled the highend market for at least 10 yrs.And they were the first to start the trickle down technology,so these great new budget designs we all love and rave about really would not be possible without B&W.When they were introduced all of these radical parts to the budget lines,all the other companies had to keep up.Many people in the late 80s and thru the late 90s considered the Matrix and Natililus as the standard for other high end speakers to be judged by. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4690 Registered: May-04 | Peter - I can't explain why you have less exposure to B&W's in your part of the world. Could be some trade policies between Canada and England aren't as favorable as in the US where we run trade deficits constantly. Part of the reason the NRC was created, from what I've read, was to stem the tide of imports into Canada and get Canadians, and US residents, to buy more Canadian products. The Canadian government gambled many more dollars on their NRC venture than B&W did in moving to an "American" sound. Though I think I painted a picture of a company that is at the top of its game, I didn't say B&W made the best speakers. Since everyone chooses "which losses you can tolerate and which colorations you enjoy" there's a lot of room for the competition and there's a lot of competition. B&W catches your ear and proves easy to live with for many listeners. That may not be the best description of what everyone wants in a speaker, but it is a description of a speaker that will sell easily and consistently and stay sold. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3502 Registered: Dec-03 | Where are B&W speakers manufactured, today? Also their components, drivers etc.? Also, do they last? We read plenty here about excellent 30-yr old speakers, like Jan's Rogers, and I am loyal to my late 1970s KEFs, as I have said. I haven't noticed anyone saying the same of B&W. While their advertising is clever, and cleverly placed, B&W have always promoted the idea that they are making speakers for the up-coming technology. Jan mentioned "digital ready" in the 80s. What did that really mean? Now the extremely high frequency reponse of the 800 series is touted as ready for the next generation of high-resolution audio, meaning SACD and DVD-A. The funny thing is that a frequency response up to 40 kHz was quite normal for 1970s bookshelves from makers like these. It went down to 20 kHz when CD took over. It is now going up again, and reviewers publish measured frequency response curves extending far beyond the range of human hearing. They find B&W (and KEF) top-range models are linear right up to 70 kHz or so. Great technology, and expensive, but does this really deliver better audible sound quality? Is it spending money on sound, or on specs? I repeat I am not knocking B&W. Probably they would claim they make different models for different requirements, so they make something for everyone, and then there is this "trickle down technology" idea that Tawaun mentioned. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkarebPost Number: 26 Registered: Jun-05 | I realize its unfair to judge any equipment especially the speaker in different location and with different component and different CDs, coz things can sound so much difference. Unfortunately there is also no way anyone would let me have a home audition for the Nautilus 801 ref with my nad C352 lol. But I like really like the look of the 805 Signature and hv never had a chance to audition em, perhaps its time to stop coming to this forum and work hard to earn that extra cash. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4693 Registered: May-04 | "Unfortunately there is also no way anyone would let me have a home audition for the Nautilus 801 ref with my nad C352" Bull Hockey!!! You pull up in your Lambourghini, rush into the shop, take a quick look at your Rolex and announce you don't have time to listen in the store - you've a flight to Milan to catch and the airport is holding your private jet on the runway. Toss down the American Express card and tell them to have the speakers delivered to your address and set up for an audition by noon tomorrow. Is that so hard? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 438 Registered: Jun-05 | Well,Shareb you wouldnt want to hear how ruthlless that would sound anyway.Tha Nads wont have enough power for them and most importantly the quality of power.If your gonna quit comming to this forum to earn extra cash,you better get some more upscale electronics for those |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1371 Registered: Feb-05 | LOL!!! Very good Jan. I'll bet that would do it! |
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Bronze Member Username: Devils_advocatePost Number: 78 Registered: Jul-05 | Actually they say that the majority of extremely rich people prefer Visa over Amex. ". A recent survey by Unity Marketing that was actually prepared for American Express shows that the "rich" segment of the survey - folks with a Household Income of over $200,000 -- found 63% did not have either the AMEX Centurion or Platinum card. By contrast 87% carried some type of VISA card. " But I digress from the original post. |
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New member Username: GlibcPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-05 | Great to know Devils Advocate, I'll be sure not to switch when I finally hit 200k! ;-) One more thing: does anyone know why there seems to be little bookshelf models out there? Everything w/ decent specs seems to be going to tower format (other then very high - and high priced)... Just curious... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3512 Registered: Dec-03 | If I were seriously considering them (not), and they were in my price range (not) then I would have no problem requesting a home demo of B&W 801s. In fact I'd never touch them without one. If it's a lot of money for them, it's a lot of money for us, too! BTW the 801 says amp requirements 50 - 1000 W. Nad C 352 gives 2 x 80 W. What's the problem? Quite likely you'll eventually decide you need more good power, like Tauwan says. But every upgrade has to start somewhere. Sacha, there are loads of little bookshelf speakers out there. Just find a dealer, or read some hifi magazines. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkarebPost Number: 28 Registered: Jun-05 | na just kiddin, dun think I can ever afford those alien looking speakers, but they look really beautiful. |