Archive through July 10, 2005
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 148 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Jan, Now I know not to waste a couple of hundred bucks plus labor taking the speakers apart plus shipping costs to recone my Altecs. However, that is a great "short answer" to my long winded, roundabout way to a question. |
|
Unregistered guest | Well that answers a few questions. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4379 Registered: May-04 | "Well that answers a few questions." Really?! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 149 Registered: May-05 | Apparently for Margie and me, it did. However, up to now, it's mostly been about the questions and I'm not certain there's any real answers but it's certainly important to explore why we do what we do in our search for the holy grail, OR speakers, components, etc. |
|
Unregistered guest | I've never had a clue what a engineer is thinking when they design a magic box (speaker, amp, etc.). Born and raised in the Los Angeles area. I love my JbL s. But they don't play well with others. Don't really see myself as that far to the left. Thats enough |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 150 Registered: May-05 | Hey, Margie. Also born and raised in L.A. area but I got smarter with age. As for the "Don't really see myself as that far to the left." I just need to remind you that you are on the "left coast" as they say. LOL |
|
Unregistered guest | David I went north too. I only got as far as Napa. Smart enought? My brother got to Oylmpia, smarter! The left thing, see I consider myself conservative. BTW thanks for the insight on speaker design. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4383 Registered: May-04 | Bumblebee - Do you only own "crappy" recordings? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4384 Registered: May-04 | "The experence of "seeing" what's not there while listening is indeed exceptional! I've had that experence and I think it one of the big goals for a system. The ability to produce that level of sound. "Intimacy" is the word that I am hung up on. I have seen it used to discribe sound but there must be better or more precise discriptions." Before this passes, do we agree the ability to "see what's not there" is important to our systems? Is that a goal everyone shares? |
|
bumblebee Unregistered guest | "Bumblebee - Do you only own "crappy" recordings?" Sadly, I can't tell. I would know if I can hook them up in different systems. But I trust my gears are "hi-fi" enough. So if they sounded bad, they must be really bad. |
|
bumblebee Unregistered guest | In addition, assuming the recodings are good reproductions of the original, then, yes, and only then would I refer to live music for comparison. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 161 Registered: May-05 | Jan, I think we can agree that the "ability to see what's not there" is important. Unfortunately, it's an experience not all of us have had. I've come close with the upgrade but I can still tell the difference between live and memorex. However, that's part of the search for the grail, no? |
|
Unregistered guest | Jan are you steering us to look at this from the opposite direction? Instead of what makes "good" good, look at what makes "bad" bad. I've never heard a good recording of the Rolling Stones. Mic sounds like he is singing in the garage ( no big loss a little Stones goes a long way). Could this be limitations of my equipment not the quality of the recording? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4390 Registered: May-04 | Margie - At this point I've got one hand on the wheel, one foot on the dash, my hat pulled down, my dog by my side and a tank full of gas. We'll see where this road takes us. I went on one vaction where the anticipated destination had received thunderstorms for three days and they were predicting three more days of the same. After spending the first night in a motel too wet to even get to the ice machine, I headed off with a friend and the only destination being, "We'll drive until it stops raining." It was a marvelous drive through the back roads of Tennessee and we ended up at Graceland in Memphis. That is how I take trips. You're welcome to ride along. |
|
Unregistered guest | GREAT! I can see what's not there. LOL |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4391 Registered: May-04 | There's the story of Mick Jagger mixing the tracks to "Sticky Fingers" on a 6X9 car radio speaker to get the sound right for the FM radio playlist. This actually spawned a device (whose name escapes me now) which emulates the sound of a cheap boombox. It is used by engineers to get the mix down for FM radio. If it plays on the radio, it sells in the stores. I once worked for a manager who thought "Sticky Fingers" was a fabulous album that made excellent demo material. Another of my stories is the "Stevie Ray Vaughn Incident". SRV is a local hero in Dallas. I like the blues, though I generally prefer Chicago style, so I invested in a SRV album. It sounded horrible on my system. One quality I have always tried to work towards as my systems improve would be to make them accessible to more music not less. This time it just didn't work. The distortion and overdrive in the music were too much for my system and for me. The album was filed away in the back of the stack. I happened to be over at a friend's home soon after this and he was playing the same album on a cheap department store system. It sounded pretty good actually! I made the comment, "It must take a garage band hifi to make a garage band's albums sound good." I believe my friend never fully appreciated the compliment. |
|
Unregistered guest | Fun,fun stories..."Chicago style"? "overdrive"? Is it possable for one system to provide superb sound..no, reproduction of all types of music? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4393 Registered: May-04 | I guess that depends on what is considered "superb reproduction". Though my friend wouldn't have considered his system provided "superb" reproduction; I'm sure he thought it was quite good for the money he spent. The familiar audiophile rant is that they improved their system with XYZ amplifier, speaker or cables and now it is so good they can't bear to listen to half their discs because the system just shows the defficiencies in the recordings. I found that to be mostly a load of whoee from someone looking to buy another piece of equipment and with not much idea what they really wanted their system to do. I tried to get my system, and the systems my clients owned, to find what was musical about anything put on the system. This isn't affected by frequency response and soundstaging. It goes somewhat past "effortless" and "seeing what is not there", though those are parts of this process. It concentrates on what is important to me in the music I choose to listen to. I think I see that marked on the road map ahead. We'll stop and get a burger. |
|
Unregistered guest | Your post at 9:10 yesterday. I didn't know there were "two camps". My JBL s don't do a great job on everything. Bass is wonderful, when it's right. Middle.. lovely, depending on what's pushing them. A couple of years ago I bought my Son some Klipsch floor standers. I fell in love again. Then Brian took them home so I bought myself the RB 3 s. Enter "bywire" and total confusion. Enter left coast vs right coast. Is it possable for one system to provide it all without spending the equivalent of the down payment on a house? |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2102 Registered: Aug-04 | Wow! talk about extended analogies :-) "We'll see where this road takes us." It seems it will be "a long winding road" Jan. I hope you packed a thermos of strong coffee because I don't want you to see things that aren't there while you are driving (like soft shoulders and dangerous curves for example). Now please exuse me for getting a little offput by this "East Coast" vs "West Coast" sound thang. Don't forget there is a big wide world out there. It may come as a surprise to you guys, but not everything is American y'all. There is also the famed "British" sound and then while there maybe Japanese, French, Australian, German, Italian sounds and others, the next major sound to consider might well be the "Chinese" sound, since it seems soon they will be manufacturing for most brands worldwide. However, it seems that in getting their products right, manufacturers everywhere will have to create in their products that secret ingredient that allows us to see things are not there. Come on you guys, would it not be preferable if our systems allowed us to see the things that ARE there - that allow us to visualise where the musicians are standing/seated in relation to the 'soundstage' - to discern the brandname on the grand piano facia above the keyboard or on the tuning section on a guitar fretboard? "Is it possable for one system to provide it all without spending the equivalent of the down payment on a house?" IMHO - I don't think so. No matter the cost, no system will provide it all. But of course many can come close. Whoever does design the "one" that can provide it all might be able solve the the problems Live8 is trying to overcome for a small percentage of their profits. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4396 Registered: May-04 | The longest trip begins with the first step. Or something like that. Rantz - I'm sure you noticed I wrote, "In the US they used to be called the East Coast and the West Coast sound." I'll let someone else discuss the BBC influence or the problems a Japanese speaker has reproducing the sound of a German piano. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 166 Registered: May-05 | Hey, Jan, It's not raining in Spokane but can't speak for Margie's brother on the west side (It doesn't rain in Seattle as much as they would like you to believe, they're trying to keep us transplaned Californians out.) And, there's plenty here in Spokane not to be seen, especially hi end audio. :-) Geez, this string has legs but i've kinda lost as to where it's going. Can you ask a semi-intelligent question that gets us back on track or does vacation make that unlikely, thinking that is? |
|
Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 638 Registered: Sep-04 | Blimey, miss a day and the thread stretches infinitely! Jan, no apology necessary - you were pretty much on the money. As to the magic, I have no idea. This system should have sounded like absolute tosh. 20 year old cheapo receiver, Tweeter dinked on one speaker, wooker dinked on the other. Bose multi-CD source (?!?), bellwire connections. What's to sound good in that lot? And yet it had more life and more sheer pleasure than my system did. Now recently I'd borrowed speakers that I didn't get on with in my system (AVI Pronine+ - very good speaker but not my cup of tea). Perhaps the difference in presentation is what made it magic. All I know is that when I heard his tosh system playing ropey backgroundy CDs, it communicated the message, the emotion, behind the lyrics such that I connected with the artist immediately. This isn't a HiFi thing because that experience can happen listening to a transistor radio, but it is this effect which is so often lost in 'good' hifi (and which often sets people on the upgrade train) in the search of yet more 'transparency' or 'depth' or 'bass' or 'treble' or 'soundstaging' or whathaveyou - all technical attributes which have nothing to do with the message of the music. Gladly, my Totem Mani2 Signatures arrived today and they're absolutely brilliant out of the box. The magic has returned to my system. The technical stuff will improve as they run in, but the message is already being transmitted and that's what's important. Regards, Frank. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2105 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan, Sorry I did forget the "In the US" part as I did a smiley. Also sorry you missed my question albeit it's light-hearted delivery, it was a genuine one. Note the :-) |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 255 Registered: Dec-03 | "It doesn't rain in Seattle as much as they would like you to believe" Yes, it does, constantly. There's a rain forest out here for cryin' out loud. Don't come here. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4397 Registered: May-04 | David - Yeah, well the burger joint is still up ahead so we might as well check the GPS to find out where we're headed. (How's them metaphors, Rantz?) Where I think we're at right now is trying to put into words what goes "somewhat past 'effortless' and 'seeing what is not there'" to make music seem real. We're trying to find what made the system Frank spent the weekend with have "more life and more sheer pleasure than my system." Frank's comments; "it communicated the message, the emotion, behind the lyrics such that I connected with the artist immediately. This isn't a HiFi thing because that experience can happen listening to a transistor radio." That is what we are after right now. What is that quality? It's true that many "good" systems lack the essential quality(ies) that let the music become the most important part of the experience. And equally true is the ability of inexpensive systems to sometimes surpass their more expensive counterparts in the ability to deliver the drive, the emotion or the "magic" or whatever you want to call it. Frank refers to it as an effect ("but it is this effect which is so often lost in 'good' hifi") but I tend to not place it in the category of effects since that makes me think more of the mechanical attributes of a system. I can give a perfect example of the "effect" though. It is the difference between a 35 watt Dynaco ST70 tube power amp and a typical 100 watt home theater receiver. Since many of you may not have ever heard a ST70 let me explain that it is an amplifier that, for all its faults, will make you get up and dance. If anyone is asking about tube amplifiers I always suggest an ST70 as the beginning point because if you do not like what this amplifier does with the music, you will never like tubes. It's not that all tube amplifiers have this quality, but it seems more difficult to take out of a tube amp than a solid state amp. The home theater receiver on the other hand will put all the notes in the right order but it will not get you involved in the music the way the Dynaco can. And the Dynaco can do this with every piece of music. And I don't really know how you design that into a piece of audio gear or a speaker. It is something Margie's Mac 6100 can do quite well. But, for all it does correctly, the Dynaco was an inexpensive amplifier. It goes well beyond the specifications and beyond the parts that are used. It begins with a designer who does listen to music and makes that the focal point of the design process. But, I've heard plenty of products that come from very good designers who have good ears who still can't capture the essence of live music being played. I used to explain it to my customers as the difference between the high school band, the college band and the symphony all playing the same selection. It is a confidence that comes across in the music where other performers and other components will make the same piece sound disconnected and almost hesitant. It is the difference between the Chicago Symphony and the Knoxville Philharmonic. It is the difference between a terrific space and a not so terrific space. The English press sometimes refer to this as the abililty to make your toe tap. Some British audio equipment has this quality in spades and some doesn't have it at all. The same with American audio. French and Italian audio seems to always have it. Japanese audio never quite captures the magic. So I think we're at the point where we want to know what makes a system work well for all types of music as Margie asks. The question, intelligent or not, might be asked as: what makes you want to get up and dance? Not just the music, but the quality that is in the system at that moment. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2106 Registered: Aug-04 | Okay, thanks Jan for your well expressed views/comments. As I have only had a few minutes of tube listening experience, I cannot really equate to some points and what you are implying, but I have to give you the benefit of "my doubt" as most often my system plays music in a way that does make my toes tap or makes me want to get up and dance (though such romantic interludes are a rarity these days) and this, from a Japanese built A/V receiver, Jap/Chinese source and British speakers. Admittedly, I think it's the characteristics of the hi-res formats that may contribute more to what I am hearing from my system although there are a number or redbook cd's that have almost a similar effect. I just don't believe I can pinpoint any particular trait to indicate what I listen for, or why I think my system can do things for music in such a magical way at times. And I know there are some that would completely disregard my beliefs that such a kit can do this for me - but I have seen its effect on others who have listened also. Really, from what I glean from you and some others (mutual friends included) on this forum, I really need to refrain from listening to much of the gear they/you recommnded as it seems my idea of what is musical, what is magic and what really works might all go up in smoke - it gets back to what I don't know doesn't hurt me. What I do know is that when great talent is recorded well and my system portrays it to me in a manner that puts that talent in the same room I'm in, well that's about the only way I can describe "what makes my system work" - regardless of the type of music. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 169 Registered: May-05 | Well Jan, That's a fun question, here we go again. 25 years ago, Luxman tuber, Altec Lansing, expensive - for a poor graduate student - turntable with a "$75 stylus" - that was a ton of money back, then. Audio nirvana at the time -the closest I have come to that "almost clear window" to quote John much earlier. But, I'm not sure if it's the memory that it was that good or if I didn't listen as well or I wasn't as "picky" about my music and how it was displayed. Yes, it was fairly loud rock. Certainly, the sound I have now is cleaner and purer that what I had then BUT it doesn't have quite the same emotional impact. So, is that earlier system a better system or are my memory and perceptions colouring it rosey for me? Is that what I should be trying to get back to or is that objective sound out there that I should be looking for, as John suggests? I'm feeling a little philosophical tonight. It must be because Jan's on vacation and I'm not. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3352 Registered: Dec-03 | I think Jan just hit a skunk, really. MR has the best line with "when great talent is recorded well and my system portrays it to me in a manner that puts that talent in the same room I'm in.." We know the talent from the SOUND. At the risk of being prosaic - We want a system that lets us HEAR what isn't there. When it works, we can close our eyes and imagine seeing whatever we like. When we open them, we will see loudspeakers. The idea that the sound of a car radio sounds better through a car radio is nonsense. If you want an accurate and convincing car radio, warts and all, you can do two things 1. Listen to a car radio. 2. Record a car radio and then play the recording through a quality hifi system. The higher the quality, the more convincing the virtual car radio. Suppose you have a flawed or dirty window, to view a landscape, and you are looking though it from behind another window. That's two windows. The clearer the nearer window is, the better will you see what sort of window is the one behind it, and the more clearly will you see the landscape just as you would see it if you were looking through a single, dirty widow. People so easily get mixed up, and confuse the medium with what it carries. Mick Jagger was fooling himself. As for national sounds. Bah, humbug. There may be regional tastes and technical standards. But a good speaker is a good speaker even if it is made on the moon. "We'd better get used to a 'Chinese' sound". Nonsense squared. What, a Fender or a Strad is going to come out so that when you close your eyes you can see the pagodas and paddy fields......?! How robustly can I express disagreement without causing offence? "Tosh" seems about right. Just in case anyone thinks I am immune to poetry and literature, I offer the moving words of a ballad from the 1960s. Jan, this is for you! Keep your eyes on your driving, Keep you hands on the wheel, And keep your snoopy eyes on the road a-head; We're having fun, Sittin' in the back seat, Kissin' and a-huggin' with FRED ["Da do di dum dum": repeat and fade] |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2108 Registered: Aug-04 | ["Da do di dum dum": repeat and fade] You sure it wasn't ["Da do be doo wah": repeat and fade] "We'd better get used to a 'Chinese' sound". I cannot find this quote! But I agree - nonsense. And yes, I think Peter Tosh could always express disagreement without causing offence. Just as long as you was smokin' what he was smokin'  Now seriously: "We want a system that lets us HEAR what isn't there." I have to disagree. If a system makes a baritone sax sound like an elephant I'd want to toss it. There's a sax there not an elephant no matter what the system is. So if I hear an elephant and not a baritone sax - aren't I hearing what isn't there? John? Please explain, John. |
|
Unregistered guest | thank you for a fascinating read on a subject dear to my heart, East coast/West coast iknow what you mean, I used to run JBL but eventually went east with accoustic energy. but, to the point each served my purpose at the time,which was and remains the ability of a music to move ,involve and inspire something almost mystically wonderfull from a"bunch of noise" Now thats magic. Technology to access the mystic truth?? Oh! and by the way I listened to an old rolling stones song (You cant, always get what you want) recorded in a chapel with choir,Or more correctly with and without choir and various contributing musicians at different stages of recording. I wasn,t looking for hi fi but found that through the accoustic window i could truly "see" the chapel in question and could notice when other musicians physical presence When not even actually playing ,even the silent presence of the choir sitting waiting to sing and their absence at times.It,s all there, Its hi fi I suppose, iwas looking for musical enjoyment but got a techno thrill instead, I,m not complaining though Its all carress to the ego.all valid.all wonderfull. thank you. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3355 Registered: Dec-03 | uol - wonderful. Excuse me, first, I have to reply to my friend from the Land Down Under. My Rantz, "Now seriously: 'We want a system that lets us HEAR what isn't there.' I have to disagree. If a system makes a baritone sax sound like an elephant I'd want to toss it." "What, the elephant...? Oh, I see. The baritone sax that is not really there. If it were really there, you would not need a hi-fi system at all. Speakers can give you the recorded sound of a real baritone sax. Perfect speakers would make the sound of the recording indisguishable from the sound of the real baritone sax. But the recording is not the performance: the real baritone sax is not there. Only speakers. I get the impression I am not explaining this very well. The elephant is a red herring..... |
|
bumblebee Unregistered guest | I got it loud and clear, John. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2110 Registered: Aug-04 | Let us send our thoughts and prayers to John and his family and others in London. They are safe, but others have perished in these cowardly attacks. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 172 Registered: May-05 | My Rantz, I can't agree on the whole elephant thing, unless we're going to talk about the three blind men and the elephant, which get's me back to my original point about perceptions, points of view and human processing. BUT, I definitely agree on prayers to John A and any else in harms way in London or the rest of teh UK. Now about that elephant . . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 541 Registered: Mar-05 | Amen, prayers to john and all others in the midst of this terrible act. I hope Blair does not pull from the on going battle with terrorism though. I would hate to think that they had come so far in vein. On a brighter note, congrats to London on securing the 2012 olympics. Frank, congrats on the totem, I pick mine up tomorrow. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2111 Registered: Aug-04 | ----------- To hell with the rotten coward terrorists! --------------- Okay, now back to the elephant! John stated: "We want a system that lets us HEAR what isn't there." Again, I have to disagree. I want a system that let's me hear what is there. We are not kiddies playing pretendies? [grin] If the cd sleeve states X is playing the baritone sax then a baritone sax is what is there. Whether the system makes it sound like a baritone sax is the point. If the sax sounds like an elephant - well, that's how John wants his system to sound - he wants to hear what isn't there. We know the sax is there - not an darn elephant. And I want the baritone sax to sound like a baritone sax - not the ruddy fat elephant! If my system lets me hear what isn't there - I'll toss the rotten thing. I want to hear what is there - accurately - not sound so coloured by a poor system it sounds like something that isn't there. I want my system to reproduce "was he or was he not a woman?" accurately instead of it sounding like "fuzzy wuzzy waz a woman." to quote from a Gene Wilder film. So okay, if it is a baritone sax that is there, who wants to hear an elephant? |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2112 Registered: Aug-04 | Oh, and if you want to SEE what isn't there, I can't help you. I don't deal in illegal substances. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 177 Registered: May-05 | My R stralian friend, I'll see if I can't make Jan's point, since he seems to be wandering the southeast in search of sunshine. We don't expect to see an elephant instead of a baritone sax. But, we would like the system to be so transparent that we don't see the system, we just hear the baritone sax. Thus, we hear "see" what isn't there, the baritone sax and the system is just the delivery device but it's not part of the experience. How'd I do, Jan? Now, about those illegal substances. Jan can't use them, he's operating a motor vehicle right now. ;-) |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2113 Registered: Aug-04 | David, Thanks - that I understand. I realise the audio gear and the instruments ARE the delivery devices. Yes, we do want a system to be so transparent that we don't SEE it - and only hear the music. Now I'll see if I can't make my point. I want the system to put the music there. If there is a baritone sax in the recording, I want my system to put that sax there - in my room - and not something that sounds like an elephant. So I want to hear what IS THERE, not look at my bl00dy speaker boxes or smell dank elephants. I think we get too profound for our good sometimes . But it can be fun |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 178 Registered: May-05 | My R- Man, I've been accused of many things BUT never of being too profound. Usually, just profoundly stupid. I think we're saying the same thing so I'll beg to agree with you, if that's alright. At least until Jan gets here and gets us back on track, to use the wandering road metaphor again. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2114 Registered: Aug-04 | Dakulis The name change threw me there for a second. Sorry for inference, but actually I wasn't accusing YOU of being too profound. Some of us here tend to get a little deep at times, if you don't beleive me, you can go through the "teaching old dogs new tricks" archives on DVD audio and SACD. There's some strange stuff in there believe me! And if you feel like an 'Old Dog' then you're certainly welcome to join the pack and throw in a bone or two. |
|
bumblebee Unregistered guest | MyRantz, "John stated: "We want a system that lets us HEAR what isn't there." Again, I have to disagree." I think what John meant was "We want a system that lets us HEAR what is INTENDED/SUPPOSED to be there (the reproduction) but is actually isn't there (the real thing, say a REAL baritone sax). |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2115 Registered: Aug-04 | Yes, thanks bumblebee. Got that. But even though it's not REALLY there, it must be there in every other way possible except physically, otherwise we might hear that damn elephant - the one that's not there - really. [grin] |
|
bumblebee Unregistered guest | MyRantz, I understand. The elephant is a different story. It's not supposed to be there but some systems can actually put it there. And some people may like the elephant better than the sax. To each his own. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2117 Registered: Aug-04 | I don't suppose anyone has a recording of an elephant playing a sax I could borrow - I just want to know which one turns up LOL! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 180 Registered: May-05 | My R Bud, Yeah, I decided to go a little more undercover for those who are familiar with my real name, this won't be nearly as scary. Plus, who doesn't want to be "da cool ist" person, so I could take off a little on the name. Now, that aside. I believe an elephant can approximate the sound of a baritone sax in certain portions of the sax's range, given the elephant's wish to do so, of course. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4403 Registered: May-04 | Sorry for the absence. I saw a horrible car wreck this morning. There were a lot of people hurt and killed and talking about hifi just didn't seem appropriate at the moment. I can only presume what I've read from John is not the same interpretation that brought up the elephant/herring issue. John wishes to not be too prosaic in objecting to the concept of seeing what the recording portrays. In his own practicable manner John rightly points out that if you look at the room your are in, you will only see your speakers. You cannot see what is not there, i.e., the musicians. However, he would have us substitute an even less likely scenario for what is happening in that he wants us to hear what is not there. Not an elephant but an instrument. Since we all can agree, I would imagine, we do not want to hear our speakers and would prefer to hear just the music this is a reasonable variation on the idea. The problem would be that if we went into an audio shop and suggested to the staff we wanted a system that allowed us to "hear what wasn't there" I can see how confused the next few comments might get. At the risk of being accused of being to florid, maybe we should amend our list of desirable qualities for the moment to include "effortless" and the ability "to envision what should be there". How's that, John? (If this goes far enough down the road, I think we'll come back to wanting the ability to see what's in front of us.) ***** As to the rest of his remarks, I think you've missed the point on almost all the rest, John. I'm not sure where you came away with the idea of the transistor radio and listening to the sound of a transistor radio through a transistor radio. But that wasn't the point that was being made. And you really can't say Jagger was fooling himself; he made millions on that mix. What Frank was getting at is the ability of a system that doesn't meet audiophile criteria for this or that component being able to involve the listener more than an "approved" system might allow. I followed that with, "what makes you dance?" That is what we're after here, John. As David said, his old system had the ability to "play the music." I mentioned the Dyna amplifier finding the life in the music. And Frank spent the weeekend with a pieced together system which connected him with the artist immediately. All of these instances are a case where an older, lower priced system had the ability to get more right about just playing music. For the moment, forget the things that these systems did less well. So the question is; what was the system doing correctly at this point? What is it that makes you get up and dance, John? (And really, why would we think you're immune to poetry and literature?) |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4404 Registered: May-04 | I have no objections to anyone wanting to spend some time here at the gas station to discuss the "see", "hear" or "envision" issue. Just let me go in and get a Slim Jim and a bag of chips. |
|
Ed, the gas attendant Unregistered guest | That'll be Forty-two bucks with the gas, Sir. Wot the blaz . . . ! Someone just gone stole yer car! But don't you worry yerself none, got me a hi-fi in the back there and and ol' Vanishing Point soundtrack. Hep yerself! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3359 Registered: Dec-03 | You have sorted this out, guys. "But, we would like the system to be so transparent that we don't see the system, we just hear the baritone sax. ....Thus, we hear "see" what isn't there, the baritone sax and the system is just the delivery device but it's not part of the experience." That's it Dakulis, and clearer than what I said! Thanks also bumblebee and Jan. So we do not need to get into elephant jokes, tempting as it is. Perhaps I musunderstood the point about Jagger, Jan, but there certainly are people who think lo-fi more effortlessly conveys the moving experience of listening to e.g. grunge. By the way, there was a pun in the song lyrics. "F.R.E.D." is "Full Range Electrostatic Design". Hilarious, heh...?! Ah, well.... |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4406 Registered: May-04 | I'm still chucklin', John. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2119 Registered: Aug-04 | Couldn't help myself - elephant joke in "Old Dogs and their jokes!" https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/106889.html |
|
Unregistered guest | John "but there certainly are people who think lo-fi more effortlessly conveys the moving experience of listening to e.g. grunge." I don't understand. Is "lo-fi" something specfic or just generaly less sophisticated equipment. And, What is "grunge"? |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3362 Registered: Dec-03 | Margie, "Lo-fi" is just the opposite of "Hi-fi"; "low fidelity" instead of "high fidelity". With "grunge" I am afraid I used a word I do not quite understand. I have heard it is a genre of contemporary music. I think it sort of evolved from punk, but I could be wrong! |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2120 Registered: Aug-04 | "but there certainly are people who think lo-fi more effortlessly conveys the moving experience of listening to e.g. grunge" With "grunge" I am afraid I used a word I do not quite understand. I have heard it is a genre of contemporary music. I think it sort of evolved from punk, but I could be wrong! Whoopsy Daisy! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grunge |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3363 Registered: Dec-03 | Great MR - but I was on the right track....! Discussed this, and my son recommends a grudge band called "Nirvana". He played me some on his iPod. Like Bax's sixth symphony, I think it requires repeated listening. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 193 Registered: May-05 | Grunge just happens to be a genre that grew up here in the Northwest, principally Seattle. However, the genre has also thrown off a particular type of attire that has also become known as "Grunge." Nirvana is an acceptable Grunge band although poor, old dead Kurt Kobain was considered one of the foremost, Grunge guys, I believe. Enough history, even if it is fairly modern history, though. Now, I have to amend my earlier response a little. I just received my center speaker last night and hooked it up to my system, watched a movie and listened to some music and Norah Jones was, at least, halfway in the room. So, I may be getting closer to what I remember as "outstanding and transparent" music from the new system. I've got a Denon DVD player on the way, the new rears to hook up tonight and maybe I'll be closer yet to the end of this journey. BUT, so far, the journey has been fun. I've spent less than the $2000 I initially budgeted for speakers alone. I've bought a new/used receiver and some speakers and the souund is like night and day. Aha, I caught you, Jan. "What is different" or "better", that's what you were going to ask, right? Well, it's the difference in listening to something and hearing someone. It's the difference in what am I going to watch/listen to tonight and all I can do is think about what I'm going to watch/listen to tonight. It's about my wife thinking that i've become overly obsessed with this past time. That's what it's like but I can't describe what made the experience so different, just yet. Is it 5:00 p.m., yet? |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2123 Registered: Aug-04 | I dont have a grudge against grunge and I never found nirvana listening to Nirvana but I'm sure some find it a moving experience - Kurt Cobain did perhaps. But like all music genres, I've heard a few grunge toons I'd liked without repeated listening. But you have to hear what's not there! [grin] |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2124 Registered: Aug-04 | Dakulis, We did a similpost! What Denon player are you getting? |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 196 Registered: May-05 | My R-Man, I'm not a grunge fan but have heard a few bands that were okie dokie. Never heard them in hi-fi or live though, so I can't say whether they were there or not. :-) |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 197 Registered: May-05 | I'm getting a used 2200 but it has 1 1/2 years remaining on the warranty from Tweeters. So, I'm taking a little chance off eBay BUT sounds like the audio shop took it in trade, tested it out and found everything to be good. Now, if they would just ship it, I'd be a happier camper. |
|
Anonymous | You know you're an old phart when you have to break out the online encyclopedia to look up what "grunge" is. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2125 Registered: Aug-04 | Good choice - I have the 2900. Where others may not share my views, I wholeheartedly recommend the DVD-A/SACD surround experience. You will have a player that will do justice to the hi-res formats. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2126 Registered: Aug-04 | Anon Yep, you're right on! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 200 Registered: May-05 | Geez, I wish Anon would slow down on his posts. I keep trying to catch up BUT he's up to about 32 billion posts, now. Jan, Margie, T-Man, John A, where are you? This string has lost steam and direction. I'm afraid that Anon, My R-Man and I are carrying you guys. "Guys" is a generic, non-sex based term of endearment, Margie. :-) |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 284 Registered: Dec-03 | Don't you have some filings or something? |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 202 Registered: May-05 | Hey Tim, You have to read the prior 263 posts before you can jump into this thread, even if you did contribute earlier. Yeah, I preparing for some fun in Tri-Cities on Monday. There's nothing like Kennewick in July, 100+ and wind. LOL |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 286 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, and A Mighty Wind at that. |
|
Unregistered guest | A-non It,s quality and condition that are important, not age...haven't we established that already? And You seem to be disreguarding innocence, opps I did it again! Dakulis Spoken like an attorney...but still valid... yes "guys" is a generic, non-sex based term of endearment, and I thank you for including me. |
|
Unregistered guest | Tim & Dakulis I thought you said you were meeting to audition Tims speakers. I was just looking for that posting and could't find it, probably too far back,... or was I hallucinating? Anyway, Lorrena McKennett "The Mask in the Mirror" is a really good choice for your task. Lots of varity in instruments, full range of sound and ....you might enjoy her. Are you, by chance, familier with her? |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 287 Registered: Dec-03 | I shipped a pair of Lings to D. He should have them Tuesday. |
|
Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 557 Registered: Mar-05 | Tim , I was very impressed with the work you have done, shown on your website. Quite creative and interesting. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 208 Registered: May-05 | Margie, I am not familiar with Lorrena. I've never met her and . . . so you know about us, huh? OK, you caught me, YES, I AM AN ATTORNEY and still Tim trusts me with his speakers, now what was he thinking? As for Tim hand-delivering and assisting with the A/B testing, heck he would be doing the testing while I sat back and soaked up the sounds. Nope, he would rather stay in Seattle and build more speakers, WHAT GIVES WITH THAT? Tim, Tuesday is good because I'll be in Kennewick Monday and I'd be really ticked if they arrived and I wasn't here to stroke their cherry stained cabinets before hooking those bad girls up. Hey, they're named "Lings" for heaven's sake, you know they're not bad boy speakers. LOL |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 209 Registered: May-05 | OK Jan, I've kinda hijacked the string but now I'm turning control of this string back over to you and we can get back to "what makes our systems "transparent" or delivers emotion or allows us to hear what isn't there, unless you're My R-Man who wants to hear an elephant. Please come back and lead us, we sure need it. |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 288 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you very much Joseph. "What is "grunge"?" I've enjoyed some of the attempts and just so you know, I'm 48. What is grunge? Hype mostly. It's nothing more than pretty standard garage rock band music. What may set it apart is that it tends not to follow a "formula" for a song that you "older" folks may have become familiar with from radio "hard rock" music and may have "edgy" lyrics. It is typically classified as "Alternative Rock". The reality is that there were many bands, not from the Northwest that were performing this music before Nirvana became famous. Husker Du, Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, etc.. Here in the NW we had Screaming Trees, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and of course, Nirvana. When Nirvana had their big hit "Smells Like Teen Spirit" it apparently was enough to get the entertainment media "hyping" Seattle as some Mecca for modern rock. The guys here were completely shocked that so much attention was being paid to what really is, standard rock music. If you really want to know more there is a documentary titled "Hype" that's worth watching. |
|
Unregistered guest | Thanks Tim, I understand! Good clear definitions seem to be hard to come by. You " analytical types" are more natural at it than right brained people like me. Also please post your web link again. I opened it, took a quick look and thought I put in favorites but I didn't. Now I have sometime and would like to really visit. Guys, found a tiny set of Jama speakers secondhand. Great high end, anyone know anything about Jama? |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 289 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks. I can only hope my responses are clear. My commercial website is: http://www.alegriaaudio.com My living audio diary is: http://www.timn8er.com Fair warning on my personal page. It's been growing over the years and some of the info is dated. Some day I'll clean it up. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3366 Registered: Dec-03 | Just to point to the signpost back to the topic, I plucked "Grunge" out of the air as an example of the sort of stuff that some people might argue sounds better with distortion and poor quality sound reproduction such as one might describe as "lo-fi". That was after my two-mirror analogy was challenged by Jan as not applicable to Jagger whose monitor system was a car radio or something. There are many simple fallacies in audio, and I think the idea that garbage is more accurately rendered by garbage is one of them. One area where one can make a concession is in bass. This used to be deliberately exaggerated in an attempt to overcome the limited bass response of the average transistor radio. The same source played through a full-range hi-fi was then apt to sound a bit like a band playing with heavy machinery in the foreground, an effect that was not there with the radio. What a coincidence, for me, that Margie mentions Laureena McKennett. Her "Live" CD was all the rage in Aus. when I was there, and I heard and was very moved by her "Dante's Prayer" which I heard for the first time on a very small and useless mono car radio. Whether it was the long drive and lack of sleep I have no idea. I have been tempted to get some CDs but I almost do not wish to risk damaging the memory of the impact of listening to that whilst driving through Queensland in 2001. Perhaps this is the sort of feeling people have when recommending "lo-fi". It used to be said of Elvis, and The Stones. Anon., that is the first really intelligent comment you have made here, if I may say so, and in my opinion. |
|
Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 637 Registered: May-05 | Yeah, I listen multi-track six-track is the road show event if you all get my meaning..... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/146507.html |
|
Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 152 Registered: Dec-04 | I know nothing about Jama speakers. I have to confess that I've never heard an elephant playing a saxaphone. And I wouldn't recognise a Kennewick if I fell over one. As for the 'hear what isn't there' segements, is that a reference to 'the sound of one hand clapping'? I was interested by Jan's reference, 200+ posts ago, about the difference between the sound of Steinway and Yamaha pianos. Could I tell the difference? I haven't been able to find any recordings of Yamaha pianos, but I believe they have a strong relationship with Bosendorfer, and I have a few recordings made using those. I find that it is easy to distinguish between a Steinway and a Bosendorfer. The Steinway is a much more subtle instrument. The Bosendorfer makes a much bigger impact, shocking almost - I suspect that artists like Tori Amos and Dick Hyman use it because of that character. The next time I am blindfolded and in the same room as a talented pianist, I think I will be able to tell which instument he/she is playing, if it is one of the above.  In fact, I'm sure I could tell the difference even if the sound source were Mick Jagger's car radio. So maybe it isn't a good point of comparison. Regards, diablo p.s. for those in the UK, BBC 4 are broadcasting Murray Perahia playing Beethoven's 2nd, 4th and 5th piano concertos at 7 o'clock this evening. The guy is a genius - well worth tuning in for. (and before you ask, it is a Steinway, of course) |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4415 Registered: May-04 | We do seem to have languished over the pecan pie at this road side diner. Lots o' calories and not that much nutrition. I shall leave the decision up to my fellow travellers as to where we go from here. I always head down the road until it stops raining. We appear to be stuck on the idea of "what makes you get up and dance". So maybe anon was more right than we would care to admit. None of us has stood up and boogied to any music lately and our memories are faulty about what made us do it the last time. I think this discussion can now go in another direction. We can rephrase the question and try to find the answer in another fashion. We can also take the road coming up and then circle back to see if we've missed anything. Here's what I see up ahead. In a way John has hit the correct button on the radio dial when he recounts his experience driving through Queensland. This is what Frank referred to when he made the comment "it communicated the message, the emotion, behind the lyrics such that I connected with the artist immediately. This isn't a HiFi thing because that experience can happen listening to a transistor radio." That quality of reaching beyond the mechanics of a hifi to become a memorable moment spent with a "very small and useless mono car radio" is what I headed toward in the last few posts. What is that quality? Why are you concerned your "hifi" may destroy that memory? I'm certain we've all had that experience at one time or another. Is it just the talent of the performer? Is it something about the recording that can penetrate "a small and useless mono radio"? Or is there something else involved? I can find the quality I am after here by plugging in different pieces of my system. My Spica speakers (which sound very much like John's Quads) have a different way of playing the tune that gets me listening in a different fashion than my Rogers speakers (which were designed to be studio monitors). My McIntosh tubes have a way to move the music forward that is not found in the mechanical presentation of my home theater amplifier. Together the Spicas and the Mac make me want to get up and dance on a regular basis. They make me applaud a performance when the song is over. Yes, they put a smile on my face. As I said I really don't know how that is designed into a product. The contributors to this thread have all heard a fair amount of audio and can probably recall the moments when you heard this quality. John has recently upgraded his speakers and amplifier and has commented on the system being more involving. I know the sound of John's speakers quite well and know they can produce what I'm after. How is the system more involving, John? What is happening beyond the smoothness of the tubes over the solid state Sony amplifier? David has purchased new equipment and made an improvement in his system. Have you found this quality, David? Or is it still a memory of that older, less refined system of years before? Margie has heard many different pieces of audio which her son has brought through the house. The JBL speakers she uses were also meant to be a commercial verison of a studio monitor. I have heard your speakers and your amplifier countless times. I know the quality exists in the Mac amplifier she listens to. Have you heard what I'm talking about, Margie? Rantz, you say this quality exists in your system. I know your speakers also. So what is it exactly? You recently heard a tube amplifier and decided it was essentially the equal to your amplifier. I don't doubt your word, but what then, since low powered tubes almost always have this quality, is it that makes your system communicate the intent of the music? Frank has just experienced this with a low priced system and, I would think, whould be talking about this with clients. What do you talk about, Frank? And T8 is building speakers with all the essential "audiophile approved" items that add up to this "dance-ability". Here's a quote from Tim's page regarding an amplifier he built, "music comes alive with clear highs, realistic vocals, precise imaging and adequate lows." What is it about your designs that gives them life, Tim? Is it just those qualities? Now, as they say here in Texas, I may be drilling a dry hole. This may be not what we're looking to discuss at this point. If not, then I would ask another question that can lead us down another road. I recently read a description of a speaker that had a "natural midrange". What is that to each of you? How do you define it and how do you know when you're hearing it? Is there anything on a specification sheet which tells you a speaker or amplifier has a natural midrange? I think this is a question I would particularly ask T8 as he looks at a piece of paper and decides from all the Fs, Qts, Qms and Qes specifications on the page what driver will have a natural midrange. But for everyone; does your speaker have a natural midrange and how do you know? Or, after all that, does anyone have a different route they would like to take? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4416 Registered: May-04 | Daiblo - Your post came in while I was putting mine together. The no nutrition comment does not refer to your post. Thanks for the contribution. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4417 Registered: May-04 | Margie - If you are referring to Jamo loudspeakers: http://www.jamospeakers.com/ They are a good quality speaker with an emphasis on the technology side of their designs. They have a distinctly European sound last time I heard them which was several years ago. They are from the old ADS/Braun school of design. They have a sound I would say is similar to the current Canton line. 2%2Cen,http://www.canton.de/www/index.php4?pg_id=09,09,,2,en Both speakers are somewhat high priced in the States right now because of the dollar's devaluation of late. The sound should be clean and crisp. They take some amplifier matching to do their best to an American ear. The Mac should sound good with them. |
|
Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 563 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, why do ask questions that have feelings for most of the answers not explanations? |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3371 Registered: Dec-03 | diablo - briefly - Thanks. I just checked the BBC 4 schedule and it looks really good. We've only recently returned to civilization and have terrestrial analogue only. We are in a strong signal zone but the communal arial is not good, so I am reluctant to get a freeview receiver just at the moment. I probably need to borrow one, first, from somewhere, to see if it works. Jan - many questions! "How is the system more involving, John? What is happening beyond the smoothness of the tubes over the solid state Sony amplifier?" I can hear more going on in the music. I have just re-played Bax Six and delight at all the detail. The speakers were the big step up. The amp is better, smoother, more lifelike. Uncharacteristically, you might say, I am short of words to describe the sound. As regards Loreena McKennitt (http://www.quinlanroad.com/) on a simple car radio, I am also stuck for ideas about why I feel that way. I think I'll get the CD and try it. It is called "Live in Paris and Toronto". It is a full-price double CD, that is a bit of a problem. I also hestitate to be seen buying anything from the rack labelled "New Age". Perhaps it can be wrapped in a plain paper bag.... I suppose I fear that the cold, analytical light of day, and the detail and resolution of my system, will reveal it to be not so good. Even devout sceptics such as I like to hang on to the occasional illusion. That makes no sense at all, I realise that. BTW I recommended LM to My Rantz and I remember he had never heard of her, despite being a compatriot. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4421 Registered: May-04 | "BTW I recommended LM to My Rantz and I remember he had never heard of her, despite being a compatriot." I have it on firm authority Willie Nelson has never heard of me, despite being a compatriot. ********** "The amp is better, smoother, more lifelike." "Lifelike". That is the word we are trying to find words to describe. ********** j.c. - Sorry, your post makes no sense to me. It would seem apparent an explanation is in order to define what "lifelike" amounts to. I think we are trying to define a feeling not give more feelings. But I could be wrong. Only you out there can tell me. |
|
Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 565 Registered: Mar-05 | Defining feelings makes no sense to me. |
|
Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 642 Registered: May-05 | If you say you listen, check out the ODEON Westover Road Bournemouth Dorset England. This has got to be the worst sounding sound in the professional field I have ever come across, check it out Jan, I think you may agree, if you get my meaning... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/146507.html  |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 290 Registered: Dec-03 | T/S parameters tell me how a driver should behave in a box. They do not tell me how it sounds. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4423 Registered: May-04 | So what does? You must have some concept of what you're after when you begin looking at the spec sheet for a driver. I understand you are looking at numbers which inform you regarding the size of the enclosure and the Q of the system and so forth. Where do you get your information for deciding which driver to use to make a speaker "lifelike"? Once you've got it in the box and running, how do you decide if it actually is liflelike? |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2127 Registered: Aug-04 | "BTW I recommended LM to My Rantz and I remember he had never heard of her, despite being a compatriot." That's right John, she did not move in my circles. Will try add some sort of answer to your questions later Jan, I'm going on a short road trip now - taking my father for a M.R.I. scan. A great way for him to spend Sunday morining. |
|
Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 291 Registered: Dec-03 | "Lifelike" or with "life"? A good example of music without "life" is MP3. I may get in trouble for that because compression and psycho-acoustics is a huge subject unto itself, but it seems there is so much missing. Music is not just a series of tones, it's also the resonance of the instruments, the sound of the room (even if it's the recording studio), and myriad other subtleties. The reason you can't consistently fool a person into believing a recording is the real thing is because of the countless variables that our brains can discern. I can think of a couple of occasions however when I was walking up to a building, hearing a piano, and not being sure if it was a real piano or the audio system. Those moments are rare and fleeting however. The closer the combination of the recording and the audio system can come to producing those subtleties, the more "life" the music will have. I pick drivers based on a number of things. It generally starts with a price point. Then I look at the electro/mechanical specs, maybe run a few simulations. I look at the construction, materials used, type of motor, etc.. After I make a decision to purchase I build a prototype and listen. I have shelves with drivers just sitting because their actual performance just didn't "do it" for me. Now you will ask why and I will say, see above. I can tell of occasions when I heard a system and said "That's awful" and the person next to me says "I like that". Are they suffering from brain damage? Maybe. More likely it's just perception and expectation. There could be physical reasons as well. The shape of the skull, the size of the ear canal, sinus congestion, a tramatic childhood experience..... |
|
Unregistered guest | Joseph " defining feeling..." Is the difference between math and language. Math is fact. Language is the context in which we apply the fact. Feeling and emotion: loneliness, happiness, sadness, joy... we all have experenced them, we know what they are. However, by their vary nature they are individual and unique experences, complex too, not the same one to another. The process of defining them helps us understand the impact they have, or not, and our options in dealing with them. That process can be tedious sometimes, so the wit, jokes, barbs, and many side trips really do benifit the journey. If we can get some definition here we will be better able to go... find what we are looking for. ( U2 anyone?) In my humble opinion. John I think yours was " an exceptional experience". We tend to be reluctant to attempt to replacate or even put into words an experence than might be lessoned in that process. Jan I don't think "an exceptionan experience" and wanting to "get up and dance" are the same thing. One of the parts of an exceptional experience is that it blind sides you, you didn't see it comming, you were otherwise occupied. The artist reaches through the equipment, knocks you naked and hides your clothes. Epiphany (without words). I don't think that is the same as " get up and dance". I've experienced the first... I've experience the second and the equipment may be involved. My first serious stereo was a Marantz 2270. I'll never forget him... he taught me to dance... grin. (Mac delivers regularly) What is the "it" that gives the system the sensation of "life"? I don't know yet, I'm still reading. But, listening to everybody, I think it's wrapped up in the "individuals interpretation" of what it would sound like if it were "live". We've found a few characteristics, common threads. We'll see if there are any more. You ask about mids that's a toughy. My JBLs have great midrange depending on what's pushing them. On some amps they just wash out. The original studio monitors had 2 midrange drivers, mine only have one. So on the Mac, there wonderful but anything else it depends on the personality of the amp. My Klipsch, wonderful all the time. Not as picky about who is steering. Kef is another favorite. What they may have in common....haven't a clue, except to say that the sound all of them deliver makes me feel like I am among the instruments, next to the voices. OK fellows....Hit me with your best shot! ...fire away! |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4424 Registered: May-04 | I have to agree that exceptional experience and lifelike are not the same thing. I think the latter can inhabit the former, but the former doesn't necessarily have to include the latter. Objects moving about the room from deep bass response isn't necassarily lifelike but it is exceptional (even with room resonances accounted for). I do believe in the case John cited and in Frank's weekend system there was something that was a bit of both. Maybe I should shrink the experience down a bit. If you haven't wanted to get up and dance, does your system make your toes tap and your head nod? Do you want to stand up and conduct? Does your system move the music forward or does it occur one note at a time? Does one note play into the next? Can you tell where the music is headed before it gets there? Is this part of what makes your system lifelike? Does your system sweep you away? Have you ever burst into applause when the song is finished? If any of those things are happening in your system, what's going on? Have you heard a system that doesn't/can't do this? What's the difference? |
|
Unregistered guest | I'll try.. Each instrument/voice should be distinct. There is also the effect of the blend..(harmony ?) The notes should last as long as they last..let them vibrate 'till they stop. Don't cut them off. Each performer should be roughly the same distance from me.( not the orchestra in the room but the voice, a football field behind). Clear, crisp but not harsh or edgy. Full, round, strong not puffy How am I doing? Am I on the right track? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4425 Registered: May-04 | "Each performer should be roughly the same distance from me" I'm not sure what that means. Are we seeing things that aren't there again? |
|
Unregistered guest | LOL... sorry, I do tend to visualize. I'll rephrase. The strength or prominence of each sound source ( instrament/voice) should be in balance as is appropriate for the particular selection of composition, one to another. Better ? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4426 Registered: May-04 | I'd say so; we can put it to a vote. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3375 Registered: Dec-03 | I think this thread had broken new ground. Well done, Vigne! Margie:- "The strength or prominence of each sound source ( instrament/voice) should be in balance as is appropriate for the particular selection of composition, one to another. " I think that is good and would only suggest adding "....as it was in the original performance". Timn8ter:- "Music is not just a series of tones, it's also the resonance of the instruments, the sound of the room (even if it's the recording studio), and myriad other subtleties. The reason you can't consistently fool a person into believing a recording is the real thing is because of the countless variables that our brains can discern. " Totally correct. I would suggest adding "...often unconsciously, and in some cases in a way which we do not yet understand". Your single, clear point cuts through all this "it is doesn't exist if you can't measure it" nonsense. I do hope Gregory is reading. I don't get up and dance much, but Mrs A does. I have on many occasions cheered and applauded, though. Also rushed off to find someone to tell about how wonderful the "performance" was. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics