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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 1 Registered: Mar-04 | I have fallen in love with the Maggie 1.6 speakers (I currently own an old McIntosh MA6100 integrated amp that puts out @ 70 watts/channel), and need a good amp to match. If I go with an NAD integrated, which would be a good match, c372, c352, or could I get away with the c320bee? If I use the MA6100 as a pre-amp, I could go with either the NAD c272 power amp or the Rotel rb1080 (200 watts into 8 ohms). The Rotel has come highly recommended, but I am more familiar with the NAD line of products. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 41 Registered: Dec-03 | Gig, congratulations on an excellent speaker choice. I own a pair of 1.6's and feel they are one of the finest speakers anywhere, at any price. Just keep in mind that Maggies want good, clean power, as any 4 ohm speaker would. You didn't state a budget for your amp. Are you looking for 2 channel stereo, or multi channel for HT ? I would give the NAD and ROTEL a listen. Youy may want to check out Aragon and ATI as well. Any amp that will give you stable 4 ohm power of say 200W + into 4 ohms will be fine. Good luck. |
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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-04 | Thanks for the input, Rick. I have @ $1,000.00 to put towards the amp. If I go with a new NAD integrated, I'm going to have to add a separate phono stage for my 5,000+ album collection. The Rotel goes for @ a grand, plus my McIntosh already has the phono input necessary. This is strictly for 2 channnel stereo by the way, so I could swap in the NAD power amp with the McIntosh. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 42 Registered: Dec-03 | Gig, Just a quick thought. If you aren't opposed to pre-owned, check out the classifieds at www.Audiogon.com. I saw a few Bryston 3B amps on the sight lately, in the $700-$900 price range. A great high end stereo amp, to drive the Maggies. You can still use the Mac pre-amp. Would sound great. Would still be an amp you will use 10 years from now. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 422 Registered: Dec-03 | Gig: A couple of thoughts. First, congrats on the Maggie 1.6s, which are among the finest sounding speakers ever made. I love Maggies and wish I could convince my wife to allow me a pair in the family room, but alas, it is not to be. She says they are too large. I used to own a pair of the smaller MMGs, and they were simply awesome. As far as an amp to go with the Maggies, I think you have a couple of good choices. Now, I currently own both an NAD receiver and a Rotel receiver. My NAD replaced a Denon 3803 and it my HT receiver in the family room. but I also came across a sale of a Rotel RX-1050 stereo receiver that I use in my study for my two channel listening (it has become abundantly clear that my two channel music is subordinate to my family's desire to watch DVDs, hence the separate system). I heartily recommend the RX-1050, which is a very nice sounding 100 wpc stereo receiver (into 8 ohms). Should have enough power for your Maggies and it has a built in phono pre-amp (which I have been using extensively). The MSRP is something like $799, but I got mine for $550, so it is worth looking around for one. That said, it does not have as much power as the NAD C372, and the sonic charecter is different. The Rotel sounds leaner than the NAD--it simply does not have the same amount of bass information. This is a concious choice made by the respective Rotel and NAD engineers representing what they think sounds right or best. The NAD amp is much warmer sounding than the Rotel. I have often said that neither is better than the other--it is all in what you prefer. But I will say that if I were buying for Maggies, I would lean toward the NAD as I think it's warmth would make the Maggies sound better. But as I said, that is a personal choice and you may prefer the sound of the Rotel. You should definitely consider and audition both. As far as as outboard phono pre-amp for the NAD integrated goes, these are really quite small and can be rather inexpensive. Furthermore, they will likely sound much better than the built-in phono pre-amps that come within either receivers or integrated amps. A couple of very good ones include the NAD PP2, the Sumiko ProJect Phono Box and the Parasound PPH-100. Each goes for about $120, but I do know you can get the NAD for under $100 from several sources. Now, since you are willing to use your McIntosh as a pre-amp, I would also suggest you look at the B & K 125.2 amp. This is very warm and detailed sounding--all in all a wonderful sounding amp. MSRP is $799, but I believe you can get it from Kief's for about $640. Finally, I am aware of one other system you should consider and may be the best choice of all. Saturday Audio Exchange is selling out the remaining stock of the NAD C160 preamp and C270 amp. They are each priced at $399, so it would be $798 for both and the C160 does have a phono section built in. Go to www.satudayaudio.com and click on their "Deals Page". The amp 120 wpc into 8 ohms (IHF Dynamic Power of 340 wpc into 4 ohms) and it will have more than enough current to make your Maggies sing (and save you $200, too). Good luck! |
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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-04 | I have a new wrinkle to add to the mix: Jolida. Any thoughts on the 40 or 50 watt tube amp with the Maggies or do I have to step up to the hybrid Jolida @ 100 watts/channel to power them? I think the Jolida tube amp at $1,700.00 is out of my range but welcome any input. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 45 Registered: Dec-03 | Gig, I'm almost afraid to know how the Maggies will sound with a tube amp. It would probably lead me down a road, I don't want to go, but would. I have read customer reviews that have stated great results with modest power tubes. Go out and give a listen, and please give me a post back on your experience. |
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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-04 | Well I was all set to plunk down the money (way above budget) for the Maggies and a Musical Fidelity 3.2 Integrated when I figured I'd take a minute and check the Jolida line out "in depth". Wheeew! I heard one of the biggest soundstages I have ever heard with the Jolida 302-B and a pair of Totem Arro loudspeakers! The Arros are a very slim floor standing speaker with only a 4 1/2" woofer but do they ever sound good. Not a lot of bass, but the bass is there. The soundstage? Unlike the Maggies, there wasn't a bad seat in the house-LOL. May make a decision this weekend...Hmmm.... |
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Unregistered guest | Well, here I am to muck things up again. Have you tried the speakers with the Mac? Or are we simply deciding new is better than old? Though the Mac may not be the last word in definition, it isn't a C-22 and MC275 tube combination, it is a very musical amp that can offer some very good performance. The 6100 has a good solid 75 watts and autoformers and Powerguard. The wattage is more than enough for most applications and the autoformers are there to make the amplifier capable of driving most any load without losing any of that wattage. I'm not sure what NAD calls their circuit now but they do the same thing with a circuit that matches the load of the speaker to the output impedance of the output transistors. Hmm, wonder where they got that idea? The Mac does it much more simply (simple circuits almost always sound better)with the autoformer that is about as good a device as possible. The Maggies (and a lot of other speakers) are not the hardest load to drive but they certainly can make an amplifier suck some wall voltage trying to keep up. The Powerguard is a pretty effective and reasonably unobtrusive circuit that keeps the amp from going into hard clipping. Wait! Isn't that the same thing soft clipping is supposed to do? Anybody else see a pattern developing here? If you want some volume occassionally the Mac is an amp that can cook all night and not cook your speakers just as things get going. And nobody can tell me the Mac doesn't look retro cool when the lights are out. If you don't have the walnut case for the Mac spend some money for that, it makes a whole different package. Toss in a variable loudness that is pretty effective, two phono inputs and two tape ins and you have way more flexibility than any current preamp I know of. Plus the Mac will still be worth what you paid for it ten years from now. If you are desiring something new, I would tell you the weakest part of the 6100 is the phono preamp, but it is discreet components not an IC chip, which can be resolved with an outboard phono section for $120 or so and you have the flexibility to upgrade that at will. Run both the outboard phono preamp and your CD through the tape inputs (a tweak a lot of us oldsters used to do) and you elinimate a lot of circuitry that the signal would otherwise pass through and you have the equivalent of an active line stage preamp. That solution still leaves you with autoformers, Powerguard and a pretty good amp. If you want to spend more money try replacing the whole preamp section of the Mac. Why you ask? Well, son, let me explain. If you put a new power amp after the Mac preamp you will pretty much still be listening to the quality of the 6100's preamp, particularly it's phono section. A good power amp should not be a band aid to your system but should be as nuetral as possible, passing only what it is fed and adding nothing to the sound, which then would be the sound of the Mac. Sorry if that sends you in a new direction that only confuses what you want to do but you need to decide what is the weakest part of your system and build from there. You didn't indicate what your sources were for this system but I'm guessing you haven't heard any of these speakers on your system. What happens if you buy these speakers and they only show your front end components were the pieces that were the weak link. I hate to be an old fogey but if your emphasis is on two channel my real suggestion is find a good speacialty dealer that still sells stereos as much as home theaters and arrange a time when you can come in and listen to a few things and not get the sudden urge to buy something different. Try the old Linn demonstration of a really good front end through reasonably good electronics hooked up to a modest pair of bookshelf speakers and then listen to an inexpensive front through hi end elctronics and some really good speakers. Make up your own mind but generally garbage in = garbage out is still true. Good luck, take your time but don't agonize and think and listen. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 68 Registered: Dec-03 | jan, From one "oldster" to another, well said. P.S. when did Mac go out of style? |
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Unregistered guest | Never did, never will. I own several Mac tube amps and a MR67 tube tuner and regret the day I let the C22 slip away. There is nothing that looks as good, sounds as good, keeps on working and appreciates in value like it was a split window '67 Vette. I've owned Marantz, Dynaco and Citation from the golden age and the Macs always stay. MOLTO BUENA! I only wish today's group of hifi enthusiasts would explore the gently used, pre-owned products more. It's way more interesting than trying to find the "power specs" on an NAD. (Good stuff but talking about it instead of listening to music gets boring.) And what none of the "kids" realize is if you own tube gear you can tweak the sound every time you change a tube. Think about that, for the price of a 12AX7 ($6 - $20) you can have a whole new hifi! It's way off the original subject but anybody care to discuss that issue? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 70 Registered: Dec-03 | jan, Once again well said. Your point on the gently used pe-owned gear, couldn't hit closer to home. The bulk of my electronics were acquired that way. It takes time for the newcomers to realize the affordable way in to high end is the pre-owned market. |
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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-04 | Thanks for the input Jan. I actually decided last week that I would take my Mac along for my next visit(s) once my taxes are done-LOL! I have been told that I may be more than happy just upgrading my speakers from the Paradigm Monitor 7's that I am now using, with the Mac as the centerpiece. I had not really thought about it before, but if either the Maggies or Totem Arros sound good with it, the money saved from buying a new amp could more than be used to purchase a good outboard phono preamp. I guess part of my concern with the Mac was that it doesn't really "open up" until you get up around 10:00 or so on the volume setting, and I have been trying to find something that gives good detail at low listening levels. We'll see... |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 380 Registered: Dec-03 | Personally, I don't want the amplifier to do anything to the signal other than amplify it accurately. I want a well-built and intelligently designed component that doesn't require anything more than an occassional dusting. Ideally a good amp should have high damping--from 300-1,000 (depending on the difficulty of your speakers)and should have a 4 ohm reading of at least 1.5 times the 8 ohm wattage. I have zero desire for it to sound silkier, more musical, or any of the other subjective sobriquets one finds commonly in "high end" publications, particularly in regards to tube amps and even solid state amps. I remember in the not too distant past when Bob Carver added an output alterring circuit into his Sunfire amps to mimic the supposed "tube sound" and invited self-proclaimed audiophiles and Golden Ears to audition in a blind ABX test their favorite speakers. Needless to say, none was able to obtain anywhere near a statistically significant guess on which amp was playing. Since then, the high end is loathe to participate in any blind ABX tetsing, particularly when they aren't in control of the process and can influence the result. I can't blame them. The manufacturers that pay for copious ad space would go ballistic and the religious elders that own the keys to the publications bank vaults would soon be looking for other work, as would their writers, that almost never have an engineering degree, but know how to write and are true believers that don't want their world turned upside down. That is why the high end rarely relies on measurements, but rely on their golden ears. I find it humorous that even when they print their own measurements, what they hear is often not even related to them. I have often seen reviews of expensive speakers with bloated lower midranges be described as having wonderful bass response and many with clipped off higher registers as having a wonderful silky high. Uggh. This is not to say that pride of ownership, cool looks, and other emotional issues aren't important to the owner. They are. But the parapsychological tendency in the high end to attribute unmeasureable sobriquets to their equipment astounds me. Actually it depresses me. Only recently has Forbes magazine written that it has made mistakes in the past by asking audio questions to the high end publications rather than Acoustic and Electrical Engineers. This is not to say that there aren't manufacturers that don't make quality tube amps. There are. But Silicon is infinitely more reliable and performs better. Now if you enjoy the classic look of retro products, like to replace and re-bias tube equipment, and have problems heating your house--tubes are great. There is a good reason the computer and high tech electronics companies don't use tubes, except for certain RF situations where they are good. Silicon (solid state) in a well-designed component is far more reliable and works better--unless you are looking for a possible signal alterration. And then my advice would be to use a quality pre-amp and alter the signal to how you like it. Otherwise I think it is preferrable to leave the signal the way the engineers wanted it to sound. This is not to say that I don't "diddle" with DSP's nd whatnot--I do. But I always rely on my base performance for accuracy. All the above being said, I would be most happy to own a classic McIntosh R78 tuner (which is great) and would not mind owning one of their solid state amplifiers, which are built like tanks and incredibly reliable. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 73 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, I agree that a good amplifier should be nothing more than a straight wire with gain, great build quality, and reliable. That said, let me play the devils advocate. I have many friends who are professional musicians, and have been around musicians all my life. Why do the guitarists prefer the old Fender tube amps from the 50's and 60's? I know they use solid state stuff for live-concert work, but studio-recording work, out come the tubes? Any take on this? |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 382 Registered: Dec-03 | Because Tube amps are great for smooth clipping and harmonic distortion. Guitarists love that. Solid State amps clip far more harshly and not harmonically. But I don't want clipping amps and harmonic or any other kinds of audible distortion in my home kit. I want the signal undistorted. I don't want clipping to ever be an issue--hence I get good amplification where I never get it. |
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jan Vigne Unregistered guest | I think I met Gregory in my store back in the early 90's. He brought in a sweep frequency generator and an SPL meter to pick his hifi. Sorry, Gregory, but you seem to have a little too much moral clarity about audio. You aren't related to Julian Hirsch are you? Ever since HK made the claim straight wire with gain back in the early 60's nobody has achieved anything that comes close. You can buy whatever you like for whatever reason you prefer, that is why there are choices. I can't tell you how many times I've enjoyed music through a system that defies all your requirements. A tube amp or the Mac 2300 with autoformers makes the same wattage into 4, 8, or 16 Ohms. The damping factor is between 50 and 100. But it will do a 10kHz square wave like nobody's business. Hook that up to a pair of Quads that don't give a diddly about damping factor, sit back and let the music happen. I also believe in high current, low TIM and power supplies that look like they were built for NASA. None of which a tube amp has. But then the tube amp doesn't care about RFI or EMI and if it's built right is not microphonic, and a fixed bias tube amp (like a McIntosh) has outputs that last for years, don't need rebiasing even when you change tubes and run so cool at idle I've had to check for glowing tubes to make sure they are on. Certainly I wouldn't want a tube computer, I don't want to build onto my house to get on the internet. So let's have some silicon in the right places. Personally I'd prefer to have my music sound the way the musicians wanted cause them engineer types are usually pretty boring folks. Bob Carver's one. He made his name with Phase Linear (also known as Flame Linear). Damping factor of 1000, 350 watts into 8 Ohms and 700 into 4 Ohms... no wait ...look out ...IT'S ON FIRE, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!! Ask a guitar player if he'd give up his ten year old 6L6GC tubes. He'll tell you they're just starting to sound right. So everybody buy what you like, for whatever reasons you like and keep it as long as you like. This is not a hobby that should cause a lot of stress. Enjoy the music and the movies and screw the spec sheet and is this cable the perfect match for this amp. Buy the "best" you can, think how you will upgrade before you buy, set the system up right (and I guarantee you 95% of the systems discussed in these forums are not set up correctly) and then forget about the system. If you are always searching for the piece of gear that images better; has a better, wider, deeper soundstage that extends forward, behind or beyond the speakers; or an amp that has more palpable palp you will be the guy who keeps audio retailers in business and drives us crazy at the same time. It's all about balance and knowing what your system does well and living with that. I love selling $50k systems but I have a lot more fun putting together a $2500 system that makes music. Finally, the MR-78 is great but the one you really want if you want good specs is the MR-80, and, it sounds almost as good as my MR-67 tube tuner. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 383 Registered: Dec-03 | I remember the recently deceased Julian Hirsch from the old days of High Fidelity magazine, or some such publication in the 60's and 70's. But I certainly don't recall his prose and hence any analogy of me agreeing with any of his views is either coincidence or fallacious. And I rarely frequent audio salons, except when shopping for speakers or with someone else who is looking for equipment. With the exception of dvd players, I normally keep my equipment for a considerable period of time. Bob Carver is one of the few innovators and brilliant engineers in audio. He has made great tube and solid state equipment with innovative circuitry over the decades past. He has done the same on speakers and subwoofers. Sure he loves building tube amps, but he admits it has nothing to do with it performing any better than solid state. He says it probably has more to do with his "cutting his engineering teeth" as a youngster with making his own tube equipment. He just likes working with tubes--nothing wrong with that. But he also doesn't make any claims for them when addressing Acoustic and Engineering Societies. What his marketting people do is another story, as is often the case in audio equipment. Look at all the speaker wire and interconnect ads in high end publications for ludicrously expensive stuff that is sonically no better than connections that cost less than $1 a foot. There is nothing inherently wrong with tubes, just as there is nothing wrong with gold capped teeth, if that is what you like. But as modern dentistry offers more attractive options than capping teeth with gold, so too does modern solid state offer more benefits to the consumer. Whatever a tube amp can do, a solid state amp can do both better, more reliably, and cheaper. The best tube amp in the world will most certainly have higher distortion than an equally well-designed solid state amp or pre-amp and will undoubtedly require more servicing during its lifetime. Of course the sound of the music is the most important thing. But just as a good HDTV can be measured and quantified, so can audio equipment. Nothing makes audio equipment sacred and exempt by itself from the laws of basic electronics and physics. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 518 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick wrote "...a good amplifier should be nothing more than a straight wire with gain". That's the ideal, the Platonic amp. In the real world you should probably add "variable" before "gain". But that's all. The question is, how best to approach the ideal. I just loved Jan's and Gregory's discussion. There's nothing wrong with measuring things, Jan, in fact it is essential. Measurements allow comparisons. I can quote you specs and send them on the internet. I can't send you my amp as an e-mail attachment. But it is essential to remember that values for physical parameters are part of the process of trying to understand what you experience, not ends in themselves. Jan and Gregory, keep going, but if you need a light break, Timn8ter on another thread quoted this link: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/newsletter/147/cable_survey2.html It is the most sublime review of speaker cables. What else? One quote: "I consistently heard a presentation that could be described, if you like this cable, as nice, soft, warm, dark, and pretty, or, if you don't, as closed down, a smidgeon smeared, a little veiled, with reduced dynamics and detail. In either case, the Cardas was distinctly midrangy, slightly rolled at the extremes, and rhythmically challenged". So, on this, I'm with Gregory. Ask that writer about Ohm's Law, give him access to any known or conceivable test equipment, and he would run for the hills. He'd be out of a job, and would know it. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 82 Registered: Dec-03 | Gentlemen, With so many "seasoned" ones on this thread, in the spirit of great, lively debate, let me pose the challenge. Someone start a new thread under "what's your dream system"? Limit to electronics, speakers, players, transports, etc., no interconnects, wires. I think the choices would open a lot of interesting discussions for all-veterans and new comers. If nothing else it could just be fun-anyone remember what that is? So-Who will cast the first stone? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 534 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, It's a good idea, I'd love to have a go, but I am very badly informed about stuff up there in the stratosphere. I could write what the dream was, once, but it is tough, you know. Try the Ivor Novello song in Gosford Park. Just on the basis of reading web sites and these threads, with no actual experience (or hope of any, but the word is "dream"), let me suggest, today:- Player: Meridian 800 Pre-amp/processor: Meridian 861 Power amp: Bryston 9B SST five-channel Main speakers AND surrounds: Magnepan MG20 (that is, four) Center speaker: Magnepan MGMC1 Sub: None* Turntable: The one I have. Wife: The one I have. (Would change speakers if incompatible). I picked up the player and amp hint from Aix records. Thanks to Two Cents for that. *Though I have heard from My Rantz of a sub called a "Richter Krakatoa" and would buy it, just for the name. |
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Jan Vigne Unregistered guest | Me, Me, Me! I've got a stone. Kinda painful at time but the doctor says it will pass. Oldster doing old vaudeville schtick. My choice for a system to own for a long time would be easy. I'd own McIntosh's new tube gear, Quad speakers, VPI table and Rega arm with a modest amount of accessories that isolate and stabilize the system and incoming power (AC) lines. I prefer products that are based on solid engineering but have seen too many where specs drive the design. The Japanese are wonderful at specs but not good at making classic pieces of audio. Why do you think all the old Mac, Marantz, Bozack, etc. end up over in Japan? The lines I prefer do not change their products very often and when they do, more often than not, it is for technical, engineering reasons that advance the audio performance. These lines hold their value well and are always, if used within their design limits dependable. The other thing I look for in a manufacturer is a consistency of sound. McIntosh has it, Quad has it as do many other manufacturers. I like products that show the designer(s) have a sense of how they hear music and every product in a line reflects that quality. The more you pay the more you get but if you don't need 150 watts the 50 watt model is virtually indistinguishable within it's limits. And it might be useful to point out that most listening, unless you are banging it all the time, is done at less than ten watts. To get back, briefly to Gig's last input (is he still with us or has he bought some new speakers and he's listening to music now), more often than not I find people know, kinda, what they aren't hearing in their music but don't know how to get there from here. If I were advising Gig on his system right now I would point out that, like anything else, volume controls are not created equal. I touched on this in a reply to another question about input voltage but Gig should know that the volume control on the McIntosh gear is trimmed so that it gives you a small change as it moves from base to about 10 or 11 Oclock. It was designed this way so you could make small changes at low levels (say at night, similar in idea to the way AV amps will reduce dynamics except the Mac does not cut dynamics). It will produce full power futher up the dial's range, for a given input voltage, than most other designs. As a further example, I have clients who feel they have a really powerful amp because they only have to turn it up to 10 Oclock and it's really loud. This is more or less like looking at a car's speedometer and because it says 160 mph deciding that is a fast car. It would take too long to describe all the issues that effect why an amp produces X amount of volume at a certain point on the dial range and would suggest anyone really interested go spend some time either in a good audio salon that can explain it or go to your library and do some reading. Anyway, Gig, if the amp is not coming alive at low volume, depending on what you are looking for, I would suggest you pursue two different areas before jumping into a speaker purchase. First, look at the relationship of your speakers to the room. Are they set up properly, most are not. Is the room the reason you loose dynamics because of size, furnishings or simply where you sit to listen. Make sure you are getting the absolute most out of your current system; and, if the room dictates certain things are going to be the way they are going to be, changing speakers may simply make matters worse particularly with a speaker like the Magnaplanr that needs very specific set up to work well. Then I would direct you to the front end and once again make absolutely certain you have everything set up to give you the best performance. Then see if maybe your source and set up could be improved, that is often the reason you lack punch. Speakers are dramatic but can be disappointing when they show up flaws elsewhere in the system. The cable review is interesting and will be used by the folks who don't believe wire can make a difference to prove their point. Cables are purely subjective since even an electrical engineer cannot predict, and wouldn't believe, given the information provided by the equipment and cable companies, what cable will work best with what set up. But cables always effect the sound because, and here we get into the argument of "a competently designed cable" (which doesn't exist anymore than a staight wire with gain does) they have resistance, inductance, capacitance, dielectric absorption, are effected by RFI and EMI and so on. Mr. Carver made his amp sound a certain way by manipulating just these factors so it would seem logical that a cable with high capacitance would make your system sound different. And also make the amp go into oscilation and create a nasty smellng cloud of smoke. But cables should not be a band aid to your sound. They should compliment the qualities you listen for; and here I will tell you that I have never worked with anyone who listened for exactly the same qualities I did. As I said before that is why you get to make choices. Unless you are stinking rich and fully committed to conspicuous consumptiom the price of some cables is obscene. But please toss out the stuff that comes in the box and at least spend $20 for a well made cable. A final comment here is the manufacturers are telling a bit of a fib with gold plated connectors, gold as a conductor falls way short of the ideal. Now everyone who is interested in why they use gold go find out on your own. No help on this, they have to find out on their own. Greg, Julian Hirsch wrote for "Stereo Review" until it morphed into "Sound and Vision" back in the 90's. He also was the principal of Hirsch-Houck Labs who got paid to review the products that appeared in the magazine. He was the subject of the argument that no company that advertised in his magazine ever got a bad review. Mr. Hirsch passed away not long ago and most of the audiophile magazines did a memorial to him which can be found by searching the internet if anyone is interested. He did not write prose, he wrote reviews and the occassional article which was sometimes helpful but mostly an explanation of why he believed you could pick a speaker by its specs and why all well designed amlifiers that measured the same will sound the same. He was above all else a princpled EE. I was not, therefore, drawing an analogy to him with you and my comment was neither coincidental nor fallacious. So knock it off, OK? He was the reason Gordon Holt and later Harry Pearson started subjective reviews in their respective magazines. I always suggest anyone interested in the ins and outs of audio read all they can and absorb what they find interesting. If you find "The Journal of American Electrical Engineers" to be more interesting than "Stereophile", fine by me. But read both with a jaundiced eye. Remember, believe half of what you see and none of what you read. Any publication that does not entertain its readers will eventually be out of business whether it be a newspaper, a mystery novel or "Stereo Review". |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 83 Registered: Dec-03 | OK, here goes. I'll base on a 5.1 music/HT system amps: a pair of Mark Levinson 331's pre-pro: I'll keep my Proceed AVP speakers: four Maggie MG20, MGMC1 center, I'll keep my Velodyne F1500 servo sub. I'll also keep my CAL cd & Toshiba DVD players. P.S. Jan, super post-I would look forward to seeing you as a regular member of this board. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 385 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan-- Thanks for reminding me--I often confused Stereo Review and High Fidelity mags as they were published in those incarnations long ago. As I am unaware of the issues that were important to Julian Hirsch, any similarity or dis-similarity between him and myself is strictly coincidental. And you were the one trying to poke at me for perusing audio aisles with various measuring devices, which obviously I don't. I go to look, listen, hopefully learn, and maybe purchase--like most others. I may have some disagreements with you, but I can't recall making you a cartoon character. You were the one arrogating the intellectual and "moral clarity" highground to yourself. I think everyone can benefit from having their opinions and facts viewed without any ad hominems or denigrations. And by the way--reviews are prose. Prose is pretty much anything that is not poetry. It is literature and plain written speach that is non-metric. As a famous man once said--"Look it up". Anyway, I am happy to just discuss the issues with you and most anyone that has good intent. And I do believe that your intent is good and we should keep it that way. By the way, Roger Russell (who formerly was Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory, Inc., and the originator of McIntosh Loudspeakers, discusses humor in audio, illustrates some examples of audio technobabble, and comments on truth and superstition in audio. For some reason I can't currently hot access the following website. I recommend it most strongly to those that are interested in fact, opinion, and myth in audio. http://web.archive.org/web/20011004154957/www.sundial.net/~rogerr/truth.html I've been using computers for years and still have difficulty when using a PC rather than a Mac in transferring a hot-line. Jeez. And I do view Pearson and Holt as part of the "dark side" of audio. Or maybe they are just dishonest and/or "true believers" and want to sell ad space to wire and tube manufacturers, which still puts them on the dark side in my book. Afterall, if the music is all that matters, why are they so dead set against double blind ABX testing with the output levels balanced? But they can be entertaining. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 84 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, I have always respected your views and opinions as well. Care to share your "dream system"? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 85 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, I have always respected your views and opinions as well. Care to share your "dream system"? |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 386 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick-- Thanks. I also enjoy your contributions. Gee--this is not easy to answer as there are quite a few components I like. But here goes---with a little cheating :-) A pair of Waveform Mach 17 speakers with either a pair of 3-channel Brystons or one 6-channel Bryston amp, as this speaker requires separate amp channels along with the supplied active Bryston crossover. But there are any number of good amps that would work equally well. McIntosh solid state amps would make me happy too. There are a number of good amps I would be happy with. And the surround speakers can all be Waveform Solo's. Too bad I have to get all these used, arrgggh. For currently made speakers I'd love a pair of BIG MAGGIES for stereo. For surround: Joseph Audio Pearls for the front, the JA Cinergy 5.1 for the center and either the JA 22Si's or the bookshelf JA RM7si's. I also very much enjoy the Monitor Audio GR 60's up front with the MA GR center and the MA GR10's as surrounds. But the GR10's all the way are great too, as long as the room isn't truly huge. And not to be too piggy I'll settle for a pair of the bargain priced HSU-VTF-3's in Rosewood for subwoofers. But a humongous Earthquake or Revel sub would be fine too :-) For A/V surround preamp: If someone wants to give me a nice present I'll take either a Meridian 568.2 or a Krell Home Standard 7.1. For a more reasonable price I'll take Sonic Frontiers Anthem AVM-20, although I do love my Aragon Stage One ---I can't wait until they all have two-way firewire and HDMI. PLEASE!!! DVD Players: If I get the Meridian processor I'd be pleased as punch to get the Meridian 598 with both DVD-A & SACD. Heck, It would be nice without the processor. Again, please add HDMI. On the "cheap", I'll take the Pioneer Elite 59AVi universal player that has 2-way firewire and HDMI. Truly, there are many systems I would be happy owning and enjoying. Other than Waveform Mach 17 speakers, there really aren't any components I couldn't be happy to switch out for another. But hard-pressed I would love the Meridian combo of A/V processor and DVD universal player. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 87 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you all! It would be my pleasure to listening to any or all of your systems. |
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jan vigne Unregistered guest | Is Gig still with us? |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 68 Registered: Dec-03 | for a moderitaly high end system and somewhat within grasp this is what i am helping a friend put together. aerial acousics t10 front speakers lr3's for the rear cc5 center and sr3's for the surrounds. and the sw-2 sub. theta digital CASABLANCA III preamp theta digital DREADNAUGHT II configured for seven channels. modified denon 5900 dvd player. he has all of the speakers and the dvd player, with the preamp and amp on order. a little too expensive for me but hey everytime he upgrades i get a new piece of equipment at a nice discount. and it's not a bad system to go listen too. i'm not familliar with all of the equipment the previous posters have put up so i'm sure this system does not compare. but what i have heard without the new amp and preamp sounds very nice to me. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 389 Registered: Dec-03 | At that price it should be his dream system, or darn close. He dropped some heavy coinage. I hope it sounds great for his sake---and yours too, for you may inherit it someday :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 72 Registered: Dec-03 | gregory do see anything wrong with what he using? as i have comunicated with you several times and feel you give an honest oppinion. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 540 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Which Vaudeville act was that, then (2.27 p.m.)?! Amongst many things, you wrote "Any publication that does not entertain its readers will eventually be out of business". Ecoustics will never fail if you keep posting! I agree with Rick; welcome! I, too, often wander off the point. It's some of the fun. I hope. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 88 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Theta makes very nice electronics. Great build quality. Should sound super. Good luck. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 391 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger---Stereophile and The Absolute Sound and other high end publications have generally liked Theta amps. I prefer the more sensible use of negative feedback in a proper circuit--such as done by Krell, McIntosh, Aragon, Bob Carver, etc. I am quite sure the design is audibly fine--it just seems somewhat odd to me at this stage of amplifier development. Negative feedback is a wonderful thing when properly used, which most any good engineer knows how to do as it has been done in various permutations for many years to great effect. But even with Theta's somewhat higher distortion I am quite sure it is below the audible level. I am only familiar with Aerial speakers by name, seeing a pair of LR5's once, and reputation. I have never heard them--hence I cannot comment intelligently on them. I know they have a loyal following and they look beautiful and well-made, with all kinds of equalization and trim controls. If you and your friend love their sound and the system, that is enough for me. At some time in the future I will have to visit an audio salon (if one isn't too far away) that carries Aerial speakers. There are so many speakers, amps, and everything else that it is difficult for even a concerned layman to hear 1/10th of what is out there. But I am quite sure it is a wonderful sounding system when properly set up and dialed in. And it most definitely qualifies as a dream system. |
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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 7 Registered: Mar-04 | What a difference a couple of days makes-LOL. This is great! Although I am aware of a lot of these products and theories, I do have a budget to stick to. Funny thing is, at night I keep hearing the Mac calling out to me: "I'm all you need for right now..." |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 91 Registered: Dec-03 | Gig, Like Jan said, a Mac will never go out of style. Hope we all helped out. |
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Bronze Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 73 Registered: Dec-03 | yah i hadn't heard of Aerial until he was looking into them but after hearing them and seeing them they are very nice. i agree you can't see and hear everything out their,like i said i don't know much about most of what you guys had listed. thanks for the input guys! |
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Unregistered guest | Gig, let me make a few suggestions that will help you get the most out of your system before you head off down the path of upgrading. You haven't said how long you have owned the 6100 or if you have done anything to it. It is around thirty years old and probably could use a good tune up. Take the amp into a competent shop and have them go over it to be certain it is meeting it's original specs. At this age there may be a few capacitors and so forth that have drifted enough to effect the noise and distortion specs. Have the shop clean all the pots and connectors. When this amp was manufactured no one used the type and quality of hardware we expect on even budget gear today. I will guarantee you will be suprised at how much more music you will hear and how dynamic and relaxed the music will be after you get rid of the grunge that builds up on a nickel plated RCA connector. If you don't know how, have the tech show you how to clean connectors and then do your cables and so forth at home (also clean the tongues on the AC cord where it will plug into the wall). Get some Cramolin or similar product and use it to maintain a clean connector. Remember not to get too zealous in cleaning and use just the slightest bit of Cramolin on the connectors. A heavy hand can do expensive damage and should not be attempted if you doubt your ability in the least. I always thought the wisest person was the one who knew when to get the screwdriver out of the amp before the smoke rises. This type of house cleaning should become a once or twice a year maintenance with an amp this age. The "damage" done to the signal as connectors oxidize is similar to shock absorbers wearing out, it happens over a period of time and you aren't usually aware of the damage until you do something about resolving the problem. It is worth the effort. If you can't find a shop you trust in your area you can try McIntosh or www.AudioClassics.com. Audio Advisor sells simple accessories such as Cramolin and will be glad to answer your questions. If you are using a turntable check the cartridge alignment and tracking set up. If you are not sure how this is done the tech can probably help you here also. How old is the cartridge? Turntable and/or CD should be set up in the room properly. This usually means some type of support other than the cabinet that holds all the other gear. Check Audio Advisor for suggestions. Isolation will quite often make a noticeable difference. If you want to try homeade tweaks try placing your souce on a thick maple cutting board just a little bigger than the component itself. If that helps, try two. If you want to explore the market for this type of item try contacting Mapleshade Music or Music Direct. Sorry I don't have their web site but a Google search should get you there. Make certain your speakers are set up correctly. I've seldom gone into a house where the performance of the system couldn't be improved by careful set up of the speakers. If you are using small speakers on a stand make sure the stand is really anchored to the floor and then anchor the speaker to the stand with a few pea sized blobs of Blu-tach or equivalent that you can find at The Container Store. The speaker and stand should (almost always) feel as if they are one and the speaker shouldn't move without considerable force after you have Blu-tached it to the stand. Any questions on this can usually be answered by the speaker manufacturer. Small or large speakers, I find that unless the cabinet hurts your knuckles when you rap on it you can usually improve the sound by deadening the cabinet with some simple fixes. First, try a diver's weight (lead) on the cabinet. On small speakers try turning them on their side on the stand and place the weight about 1/3 of the way up the cabinet between the woofer and tweeter, speaker Blu-tached to the stand. If you do this, be certain you don't change the height of the tweeter drastically or you may end up with worse sound. On larger speakers place the weight on top of the cabinet or try some damping material used in automobile panels (available at car stereo shops)on the back panel of the cabinet where it is likely to resonate from the force of the woofer. Experiment with amount and placement if you think things have improved. Some less expensive speakers are designed to use the liveliness of the cabinet as an advantage but these are not the norm today. Don't make permanent changes until you have convinced yourself you have made an improvement. All weights should be Blu-tached to the cabinet after you have found the best damping. Sorbothane is also a great device for damping panels on CD players or preamps, not, however for power amps that will generate heat. It makes a nasty mess when it melts. Sorbothane allows vertical movement so don't use it under speakers where you want the box immobilized for the best sound. Spend a few bucks on a very good surge protector. I normally suggest a Panamax because it does the best at really protecting the equipment against surges. When I say a few bucks I don't mean a few bucks. The stuff under about $100 is mostly worthless and can make things sound worse. Try this: with no surge protector in the system select an open input on your amp, not phono, such as AUX or TAPE 2; set the volume control at 9 or 10 Oclock; now, with your ear at the tweeter you should hear a hissing noise that is just random noise from the circuits. Put a good surge protector with RFI and EMI filtering in the system and repeat this. You should hear a drop in the general noise as the crud is removed from the AC line. It may be quite a bit or not much at all depending on the quality of your line voltage but every little bit helps. You can also purchase a device at Radio Shack and most hardware stores that you plug into your AC outlet and it will tell you whether the outlet is wired and grounded properly. Particularly in apartment houses these two things can make a noticeable difference in the hash that rides along with the music and makes it sound dull. Grunge on the line is one reason a system will sound cleaner after 11 Oclock at night when usage in your area generally drops. DO NOT attempt to change any AC wiring unless you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you know what you are doing! With a good surge protector in place you can now leave your equipment on virtually all the time. This gives the internal components the opportunity to stabilize and in the case of the Mac gives the autoformer the chance to warm up completely. Equipment that stays on all the time is also likely to last longer as it is not subjected to the wear of heating and cooling. How many times have you had a light bulb go out while you were reading the paper as opposed to hitting it with a blast of 120 volts. I normally leave most all of my equipment on all the time, other than TV's and obvious stuff like that, unless lightning is expected and then a surge protector lets you shut things down with one switch and remove the power cord from the wall. Try leaving amps and CD/DVD players on for a week and see if you think it makes a difference. If you can't hear a difference, turn things off for safety. Since I can't predict the competency of anyone else I will only mention that the performance of a system can be improved by replacing a few simple internal components such as capacitors and connectors without going into modifying a circuit; and, changing the actual AC wall outlet to a better quality piece can make one more step in reducing noise in the system. But, please, do not do anything foolish. Try a few of these things, which, against the price of a new set of speakers and an amplifier, are rather modest and see what you think. My experience has been positive and I think yours will be also. If anyone has any comments or questions about anything I've mentioned please reply through this thread and I'll see if I can offer a better answer. |
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New member Username: GigondrumsPost Number: 8 Registered: Mar-04 | Taxes are done and it's time to make a decision-lol. Thanks for all the input. PS What the heck is a le amp 2? |