Can a speaker be EQUALLY good for ALL music types?
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1227 Registered: Mar-05 | In another ongoing thread, Somed00d wrote: "I dont think a speaker should only do one thing well, at least not a good speaker anyways. It should do everything from heavy metal to classical well. If it doesnt than its a limitation of the speaker, not the music/recordings." What do the rest of you think of this statement? As my speaker listening experience is limited to only about 15 brands or so, I'd be curious to hear from the more widely experienced people on this forum. The aforementioned thread was about under $400 speakers and developed a focus on the $328 Ascend CBM-170s, and so I want to be sure you fat cats out there don't get carried away with the gazillion-dollar ones! : ) https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?1/145826 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4437 Registered: May-04 | As I said on another thread; it depends what your definition of "well" is. There is "well". There is "well". And there is "WELL". Which one does it have to be? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 289 Registered: Jun-05 | Well,I like that word,but anyway I tink first off a speaker is gonna have to be full range. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1229 Registered: Mar-05 | hmmm, how about this: at least Toyota Camry "well." |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 684 Registered: May-05 | Good God, hear we go again... What is this WAR OF THE LOUDSPEAKERS...? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1230 Registered: Mar-05 | > Well,I like that word,but anyway I tink first off a speaker is gonna have to be full range. And at what price range do quality full-range speakers begin to be available? In some other thread I think Art said $2K. And in this day and age of subwoofers, is it really THAT necessary for a speaker to be full-range in order to handle all types of music equally "well?" |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1231 Registered: Mar-05 | No Andy, just discussing theory here. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 685 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 A loudspeaker is a loudspeaker, heavens above, Edster922, what loudspeakers do you use, lets see a picture of them right hear right now place it for all to see, as I like a good picture show... |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 686 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 If it ante broken then why fix it... Sure improve on it by using active X-over units compressors EQ Dolby SR/A 336, etc, etc, etc and who knows what may come out of it, well I can tell you all a whole lot more. The B-chain rules... |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 295 Registered: Dec-03 | "it depends what your definition of "well" is." Yes. "how about this: at least Toyota Camry "well."" I wouldn't want to try and haul a load of topsoil in a Camry. I kinda like the automobile analogy though. The first rule in loudspeaker design is: "Every design is a compromise". If it's small it's going to either be limited in bass response and/or have low sensitivity. If it's big, well, it isn't small. If it does many things well it's going to be expensive, and probably big. Of course, what I think a speaker should sound like may be totally different than what somebody else thinks it should be. Bottom line? Yes, I think it's definitely possible for a speaker to do justice to all genres of music. In another thread it was said that the speaker and the room is the most important part. Someone countered with the amp and the speaker is the most important. I believe it's an audio "system". All the parts need to work well, together. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 291 Registered: Jun-05 | Who decides what a full range speaker is,popularity,press,advertisement,Magazine reviews.I know that fullrange speakers exist for under $2k,others may disagree,most so called experts will tell you a true fullrange cant be had for less than $5k. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 687 Registered: May-05 | Better still why not hirer an orchestra to play live around your home every weekend at least we can read what it was like I real life... No mater how far we go, the loudspeaker does it not have to have a high sensitivity say a ceiling height 200db if that is possible then what ever mix is available with newer dynamic range as well as most Dolby dts SDDS 8 multi-track formats have a range of 110 120db there about. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 688 Registered: May-05 | I think we all have some major issues hear. I look at the stars and I see neither right nor wrong in them there just there. I listen to a loudspeaker, woo, and stop what's wrong with this picture... I think it sounds too bright, and not enough bass range in it to be believably realistic to surpass all the rest of the competition. I therefore seek out for one that does therefore making it wholesome. I can now relax and enjoy Star Wars episode 3 and War of the Worlds till I'm therefore totally blue in the face.... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1234 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL Andy, is it just my imagination or are you trying to supplant Paul while he's away on vacation? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 292 Registered: Jun-05 | You no Tim you hit the nail on the head.When we are kids in the audio game the first thing we think about is speakers,but once we turn into teenagers in audio we start wondering why our system isnt what it should be.The reason being is the speaker is the star of the lineup"kind of like Jordan before he won any champioships,yes he dunked on people and had 60 point games but everytime it came down to winning he just could'nt get over the loser hump,for all the individual talent he had knowone could figure out why he kept losing,see He that was the key word what is basketball its a team sport,thats what it was.When he started thinking team they won 6 championships".When we grow up into grown men or women audiophiles no longer is it just the speakers[the star],they become a whole system {a team} thats when we start getting true fidelity,because every piece in the chain adds up to a Winner a Team! |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 691 Registered: May-05 | Edster922 Paul good heavens above no, sorry, but people do change don't they, but thank you for waking me up on that issue. So what about sensitivity 200db is it possible, and if there is one word that I don't what to hear that is the word impossible... |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 692 Registered: May-05 | I got a better idea why not buy the same loudspeaker JBL as being playing in the movie theatres since the birth of the talkie As for you guys you all have fantastic loudspeakers, lets leave it at that for the time being shall we... Tawaun A.Williams Edster922 Timn8ter And as for Jan Vigne I don't know what loudspeakers you have, as it doesn't say on your profile, ashamed of what you are using, |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 693 Registered: May-05 | Also there is another factor hear loudspeakers is like religion, there are so many beliefs in God,just as there are loudspeakers but I don't what this to turn into a feeding frenzy.... |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 698 Registered: May-05 | WAR OF THE LOUDSPEAKERS No one would have believed, in the early years of the 21st century, that this thread was being watched by intelligences greater than own, but as men busied them self's about there loudspeaker concerns, they observed and studied, the why a man with a Microsoft computer would scrutinise the information that swarms and multiples on a forum site, with infinite complacency men went to and fro about the ecoustics, confident of there loudspeakers over this thread, yet across the other side of the world intellects vast and crawl and unsympathetic, regarded the other users loudspeakers with envious eyes and slowly and surely drew their plans against us |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | What I meant was a good speaker should make almost any recording sound more enjoyable. Yes, some recordings will always sound better than others, but I believe almost every recording has enough musical information on it to take advantage of a better system. Ever heard of the saying " pop music sounds better in the car than on my hi fi system" or " better gear will just make rock/pop sound worse"? This is just not true. If indeed your pop/rock/whatever sounds worse on an expensive stereo , then you either have mismatched gear, your gear isnt as good as you think, or you enjoy the colorations of a lesser system. If your system sounds bad on 90% of your recordings, then its your system not the music. In other words, your system shouldnt pick which type of music you listen to. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 198 Registered: May-05 | Somed00d - The reason that some music sounds better on "lesser" systems is usually due to recording quality. When a "better" system makes them sound worse, it is most often because it is revealing all of the flaws that a lesser system doesn't reveal. For example - I have a few Jimi Hendrix CD's the are supposedly remastered. They are full of hiss, drums sound like cardboard boxes, and it's very hard to differentiate different cymbles. In my car (a cheap Aiwa receiver and kenwood speakers - not a "reference" system by any stretch of the imagination) it sounds decent. It doesn't sound great or horrible, just mediocre. When I play the same CD's at home (NAD and PSB - not a "reference" system either, but all I can afford at present) they are barely listenable. 90% of the music on some tracks is in one speaker, sound levels jump all over, in addition to the suff mentioned above. This is because the system revealed most if not all of the CD's limitations. When you can't hear all of the flaws, the music is very enjoyable, when you can hear them, it's really in your face so to speak. A good speaker (or other component) should sound good with any type of music played on it as long as the recording quality is up to par. I think of a good component as one that has a wide frequency response and has a flat frequency response curve. If it reproduces the entire audible spectrum and and doesn't over or under emphasize any particular part, then it should sound good reproducing any type of music - theoretically. These are just my opinions, and I'm sure that many will disagree. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | I'm also using PSB speakers ( Stratus Mini in my case) and Jimi Hendrix sounds fine. So do the Misfits, early Metallica and early Iron Maiden. I owned speakers from the Image series, and most of my recordings sound better on the Stratus Mini's. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 321 Registered: Jun-05 | Well until the Platnuim series the Sratus series was the top dog in thier lineup real good speaker.One of the oldest lines still standing thats actually competitive,without being updated a soon to be classic. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | Tawaun, The Stratus series are decent speakers, yes they have faults, mainly caused by their metal tweeters ( not really bright or harsh, but they sound different from the poly woofer). My point was that my recordings sound better on the Mini's than the 2b's because they are better speakers. With better gear, sure you hear more recording artifacts, but you also hear more of the intended musical signal. Some speakers will magnify these problems because they have problems themsevles. For example, if the recording is bright, and so are the speakers then well it will be unlistenable. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 327 Registered: Jun-05 | A speaker that plays the actual recording the way it was recorded is acurate,one that softens or sweatens it is colored the one that is the most faithful to original recording is acurate. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1243 Registered: Mar-05 | I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle between Tawaun's 12:26 post and Somed00d's 12:00am post. Meaning: There's no way to make a bad recording sound GOOD if the speaker is accurate, but a bad speaker will make a bad recording sound even worse. Which maybe is why God gave us equalizers? I haven't used one since my first system way back in high school some 20 years ago, but in theory an EQ should allow you to make the best of bad recordings and/or gear, no? |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 329 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah I suppose so,but you would think they would do that at studios during the recording,so it would be of decent quality by the time it reaches the consumer. |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | "A speaker that plays the actual recording the way it was recorded is acurate,one that softens or sweatens it is colored the one that is the most faithful to original recording is acurate." I agree. But most recordings are pretty good is what I'm saying, so a truly accurate speaker should make most of them sound good. "Meaning: There's no way to make a bad recording sound GOOD if the speaker is accurate, but a bad speaker will make a bad recording sound even worse." I agree with this too. All a bad speaker is going is adding more colorations to a recording, making it less true to the performers original message. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1246 Registered: Mar-05 | well, aside from human error and human incompetence, I imagine studios have far better gear than most of us have at home. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 213 Registered: May-05 | Hey, I'M BACK. I think Tim hit the nail on the head, along with T-Man's Jordan analogy and my wife's thought, which is, "the best speaker is the one that fits in her entertainment center cabinets." So, we each have to make trade offs in our speakers, some of which can be compensated for, with a subwoofer, a better receiver/amp, a better DVD/CD player, better wires, line conditioners, and who knows what else? Without my wife's restrictions, I could go for floorstanders BUT would they outperform what I have, or may have Tim, if they don't mesh with the other components? I THINK NOT! So, although I highly respect Art's thoughts on $2K speakers as a minimum for reference sound, it depends on what we're looking for and what trade offs we want. If my system is also going to do HT duty, it does, it's not going to be the best "musical" system necessarily BUT I think Edster's original point is that we look for something that does each thing, genre of music well, for us. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 154 Registered: Dec-04 | I have two systems which I listen to. My main one is a NAD T753 with Castle Conway 3 speakers. The other is a £200 Technics stereo amp with some old Hitachi speakers. I mainly listen to classical music, the majority of which is from UK 'Radio 3' My NAD/Castle setup is obviously not the best that the hi-fi world can offer, but with good material it sounds very good indeed! But with poor material, I can definitely notice the faults in recordings The Technics/Hitachi combination, however, always seems to hang in there. Maybe it just isn't detailed enough to show the faults in the recordings!. But it sounds fine when you get accustomed to it. It will play pop, rock, jazz and classical with equally enjoyable aplomb. I keep wondering about doing upgrades to my main system. My thought at the moment is to use an active crossover and two stereo valve amps to bi-amp my (to be modified) Castle speakers. I'm wondering if I will have any audio material worth listening to with the improved setup, I will presumably just be hearing more faults in the recordings.  diablo |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 202 Registered: May-05 | SomedOOd - "I'm also using PSB speakers ( Stratus Mini in my case) and Jimi Hendrix sounds fine." Which Hendrix recording and what medium are you listening to? I've got some Hendrix re-mastered cd's (Are You Expereinced and Electric Lady Land) and they sound horrible. I've also recently gotten the original vinyl pressings of them from my father and they sound great on my PSB Image t55's. |
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random guy Unregistered guest | EQ is where it's at. I play stuff off my computer and use WinAmp's conveinent EQ. I've set it differently based on what music and speakers I'm using. I can make up for inexpensive stuff with a decent EQ, But, an EQ in the hands of someone untrained is a bad combination . . . you have to know what sounds coincide with what frequencies. You have to know the limitations of the equipment. Despite the limitations of most equipment, a properly done EQ will make it sound at the very least listenable. In short, an EQ makes up for many faults. Oh, and I think this forums would be better off if nobody paid any attention to Tauwan or Edster when he's ranting at people about the merits of bookshelfs. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 337 Registered: Jun-05 | Well Diablo,Dave hit hit it right on what do you want from your system.A tonally accurate system is not what everyone wants,some people dont want anything so analytical that 90% of their recordings sound bad.You have to figure out what sound you want there really is no right or wrong, unfortunetly at the prices most of us are spending we cant have it all.Even if our mind tells us we do, at these prices we are only lying to ourself to make us believe we have picked the ultimate system.If that was the case we would'nt be on here debating everyday hour after hour about each others compramises,see thats the key word we have to accept them to try and get mostly what we want out of a system.If we all had wilsons,Rockports,JM Lab Utopias,speakers of that league we would'nt have to compramise but we dont,so we have to find the compramises that can live with. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 156 Registered: Dec-04 | Tawaun, I've been thinking about my problem, and come up with a partial solution. My Nad has an option to play stereo from the surrounds only. So if I replace the surrounds I have now with some moderate bookshelf ones (I have some Tannoy M2s doing nothing), then i get the best of both worlds. I can play general stuff on them, and the good material on my main speakers. Maybe it is worth getting that electronic crossover and a couple of PrimaLunas, after all. regards, diablo |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 83 Registered: Apr-05 | The original question was "Can a speaker be equally good for all types of music" Some here have twisted that into "some speakers sound better on certian amps and some sound worse" That was not the question. To answer the original question, yes, a well designed speaker should sound perfectly fine on ANY style or type of music. How many do? Very few, but they are out there. The problem, as I see it, is that some people have been conditioned to relate a certian type of sound, if you will, to certain styles of music. Take rap/hip hop for an example. Most people associate that type of music with big thumpy bass speakers at outragous volumes. When played thru an accurate, well designed speaker your not going to get that boomy bass. Does that mean the speaker doesn't do Rap/hip hop well? No. It means it doesn't play that music the way you have been conditioned to hear it. Perhaps you have been hearing it wrong? |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 159 Registered: Dec-04 | Paul B Okay, some of us haven't answered the original question too accurately. But the original poster, Ed, went on to discuss equalisers, which are part of the amplification system. Ten years ago, I was the (not very proud) owner of a reasonably pricey Onkyo A/V system, which despite getting excellent reviews, was absolutely hopeless with audio. You could have wired up the finest speakers in the world to it, but the result would have been a big disappointment. So, amps do figure in the overall equation. I have now wired up my Tannoy Mercury M2 speakers as surrounds, which I can also use for stereo. The difference between them and my Castles is astonishing. I can click on my remote to toggle the two sets. The M2s received very good reviews when they came out (1996?), so I'm surprised they sound so hazy now. However, they are still not bad enough to mask out all the effects of a bad recording. I will have to swap them out for my Hitachi speakers! I think I am guilty of interpreting the question in terms of my own problem. There are some recordings which will not sound okay unless you listen on poor equipment - badly miked and mixed classical recordings. Many pop/rock tracks are deliberately mixed that way. Using good equipment will only make them sound worse! I have no personal opinions on equipment for rap and hip/hop, though there was a recent thread which suggested that the genre sounded good on Bose. But that racist, pro-violence, evil crud will never defile my speakers. Regards, diablo |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4472 Registered: May-04 | There's the answer. Some speakers can play equally "good" on all music. They do poorly at everything. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 224 Registered: May-05 | Now Jan, No, one liners and then moving on, here. I've already spent by 50 cents worth but I think that there are some speakers that are adequate at most genres of music. Some that simply are not musical at all but may be fantastic for HT. My old BA CR6s fall in there with a subwoofer. They were perfectly fine as surrounds to fill in the rear but, holy smokes, when I hooked them up to A/B against the CBM-170s, you would have thought you were listening to a whole different CD - Norah Jones may be a little nasal BUT the poor thing sounded like she was in the midst of the worst head cold ever. LOL So, what speakers have the ability to do most things well, the decathletes of speakers so to speak, nstead of the Jordans that do one thing so well they take your breath away? |
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 169 Registered: Mar-05 | ok, i have an old receiver, it's from 1984, the company is out of business, i can't even find specs on my equipment anymore. i have an AKAI EA-A2 9-band equalizer, AKAI AM-A70 Receiver, and AKAI SR-LA301 3-way speakers. It was my dads when he was my age, actually. And he said he was hooking something up and blew the tweeters, so right now I have a pair of piezo tweeters to replace the older ones, R.I.P. those tweeters though. OK, to the point! flat treble, flat bass (no eq)- this speaker sounds like CRAP! the music sounds like its coming from muffled inside the speaker. hooked up to the equalizer, using winamp's equalizer i was able to put the preset i like (rock) onto my actual equalizer, with some minor adjustments considering winamp's equalizer is 10 band. ok, so i starting playing some music, WOW! what the h3ll happened!??! my crappy speakers are now the best speakers i have ever heard.. so then i maxed the treble, and set the bass to +2 (it has 12inch woofers so i didn't want to max the bass, just match it well with the mid and tweets) these once-thought 'junk' speakers are now my precious speakers, i don't even let kids around them! and EQ can do wonders for a system.. i've gotten to the point where basically i don't even care what music i listen to on my speakers, i really just enjoy the "quality"(?) they put in my ears, and with that i can listen to anything with them.. that's how i feel. here are some pictures: |
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Silver Member Username: W00bPost Number: 170 Registered: Mar-05 |   |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 87 Registered: Apr-05 | Notice the "Smile" on the eq. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1195 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes Paul it was the first thing I noticed. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 654 Registered: Mar-05 | It's like a cycle we audioaholics go through. I can remember when I used to have an eq and "smile" it cause it pleased me. Now I tend to not even adjust bass or treble and don't even use bass eq switch on the NAD. Just sounds more "transparent" lol. More natural in my words. |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 94 Registered: Apr-05 | Who has tone controls? I don't. No balance either. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1325 Registered: Mar-05 | Dustin, I totally understand where you're coming from. My Logitech Z-2300 2.1 system that I use with my PC sounds like utter crap with the EQ off, but with the EQ on (I usually have it in a "Frown" shape for my jazz, classical, and ambient music) it is not bad at all as long as I stay within reasonable volumes. My bedroom Sony minisystem on the other hand only has 3 preset EQ settings and all of them suck even worse than the EQ defeat setting, LOL. |
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Anonymous | "Who has tone controls? I don't. No balance either." Good for you Paul. We're proud of you. |
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New member Username: HammondrckrPost Number: 9 Registered: May-05 | ive got EV interface-d's and they seem to have a full range of style, with no special EQ |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 940 Registered: Feb-05 | I agree with the original post. But I'm a perfectionist. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1236 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm with Dale. I had Magnepan speakers which were marvelous in a limited capacity. They did some things better than my Paradigms, but in the end it was their inability to do equally well on all of the music that I enjoy that did them in. I don't want to have to buy a specific type of music to mate with my speakers. See I am a music lover first. I don't understand the audiophiles who buy music that they don't like because it sounds good. I buy music that I like and ask my system to communicate that to me in a way that I understand. The Magnepan's could not do that with all of the music types that I enjoy. Funk just wasn't all that funky with my Maggie's. My Studio 40's give me that balance. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 698 Registered: Mar-05 | Rainmakers do that for me ;) |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1629 Registered: Jan-05 | To answer the origional question...... NO |
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