If B&W were a car, what car would it be?
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 22 Registered: Apr-05 | I'm new to hifi and last year bought a pair of B&W speakers. Since then I've seen over and over the way stereo sales guys kind of roll their eyes, or sigh, or shrug dismissively, when they ask what speakers I'm using and I say B&W. They almost act sorry for me, as if I've been duped. Or it's as if I'd told them I'd bought Bose. For lack of a better word, I get the sense that among audiophiles, other British brands like Spendor, Harbeth and Quad are considered "cool," but B&W is somehow considered too mass market or something. Can someone here, preferably someone in the biz, please clue me in? Why do people sneer at B&Ws? Has anyone else experienced this reaction? Or let me ask it this way. If B&Ws were a car, what car would they be? (I know more about cars than about stereo.) Would they be a BMW -- ie, probably overpriced, and yes, they're often owned by jerks who only bought them for the brand name, but in fact they offer (or used to, until recently) the best handling, great engines, etc. Or an Audi -- ie, Volkswagen guts tarted up with cosmetics, ie you're paying luxury car prices for middle-of-road performance and not-great reliability (can you tell I've owned an Audi?) Or a Jaguar -- ie a venerable British name draped over a Ford Taurus? Or something else? Anyone want to take a crack at this one? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2060 Registered: Aug-04 | B&W speakers are among the best there are. The main point should be: Do you like them? Forget what others think. I use 602 S3's and an LCR6 S2 powered by Marantz A/V and a universal Denon DVD-2900 for a source. I could't be more happy - well unless I could afford the higher end B&W's of course. As for comparing to a car - well that depends on which B&W's you own. |
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Bronze Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 51 Registered: Jun-05 | Thats a tough question it depends on which ones you have its like having a BMW 5 seies lots of people have them but they are not cheap though.See B&W is the most popular speaker company in the world,when you are on top every body wants to knock you off,everyone loves a underdog,so enjoy them the 602s is one the best speakers in their line. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jorge59Rio de JaneiroBrasil Post Number: 26 Registered: May-05 | I guess B&W 300 series are something like a beetle or entry line Audi A3. The 800 line might be a Porshe or top line Mercedes. Anyway, expensive yet respectable speakers. Apart from the Ferraris and Rolls Royces, existing in any industry ... |
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Edster911 Unregistered guest | Pinto.... If you want M3 performance you want Paradigm or Ascend, not crappy B&W. |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 869 Registered: Feb-05 | Edster, you read my mind. Before I entered the thread I was thinking Pinto. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 612 Registered: Sep-04 | Hubert Tawaun hit on a very important point. B&W is the single largest speaker manufacturer in the world in terms of overall sales. It is also one of the most influential speaker brands which carries a huge amount of weight in the whole HiFi industry. They're not bullies, but they are very competitive. They are also used extensively in many recording studios which gives them even more clout. B&W's speaker range covers a very wide spectrum, one of the widest in the business, from entry level to fairly high end (but not ludicrously high end). So you can't compare to BMW. You could say that it's a Ford with ranges that include the Ford range but also Jaguar (now owned by Ford) but possibly not Aston martin which comes into the ludicrously expensive range. Then again, it could be FIAT (300 series), incorporating Alfa Romeo (600 series), Lancia (700) and Maserati (800). Or Daimler Chrysler with Mercedes being the 800 series. B&W is a world contender. However, this tends to polarise opinion and you will get rolled eyes just as much as enthusiasm. It depends on the local representation of course as to which you will get. The important thing remains that you're happy with your speakers. If you are, then enjoy, if not then you need to look elsewhere. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 53 Registered: Jun-05 | As a company im not B&W fan,and of their sound but I respect them they have done some very inovative things in speaker building. |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 691 Registered: Dec-03 | Hubert, Don't be swayed by what salesmen say too much - they want to make you feel like you need different speakers - they have workshops where they use all sorts of tricks to make you buy - my brother in law told me about the tricks of the trade. If you are happy with B&W, that's ok - it's fun to buy new speakers though - you might be looking for excuses to buy more like me  B&W is good for classical especially - the tweeter is especially nice... but has a bit dry sound - there are speakers that sound more how should I say... liquid and luxurius? You might want to do what I am doing - I have 2 sets of speakers connected, and depending on the mood and the music, I go back and forth. This way, I am happier with what I have, and don't get that itch to upgrade again. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 158 Registered: May-05 | B&W is the world's leader in speaker sales for very good reason (unlike BOSE). It is about time that a well made and engineered product is the leader in sales. Personally, I prefer a few other speakers to them, but I have a lot of respect for them and will never bash them. Frank hit the nail on the head when he said if you're happy, there's no need to look elsewhere. This reminds me of a good story. A few years ago a new hi-fi shop opened up in my neighborhood. The lowest lines they carried were Arcam and Totem. The owner asked me if I needed help, so I told him no because I couldn't afford anything in the store. He smiled and asked what gear did I have - NAD and PSB. He said I probably had a better stereo than 90% of the people out there, if a salesperson ever gives you any negative looks, leave. They deserve your time or money. He also said that he couldn't afford 95% of the stuff he sold. It made me realise that the majority of these sales people that turn their nose up at some of the 'budget gear' probably can't afford the high end stuff either!!! Frank - "B&W's speaker range covers a very wide spectrum, one of the widest in the business, from entry level to fairly high end (but not ludicrously high end)." This is incorrect. The B&W Nautilus costs $40,000 (US) a pair. I would say that's pretty "ludicrously high end." Especially when you consider the fact that they recommend something like five 200 watt minimum monobloc amps to run each speaker. |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 159 Registered: May-05 | Sorry - I meant to say the sales people didn't deserve my time or money in that situation. |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 23 Registered: Apr-05 | James Lee, I'd love to hear some of those salesman tricks that your bro-in-law told you about. What do they teach these guys at workshops? Care to share? It would make my next visit to the hifi store more entertaining. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 547 Registered: May-05 | I have a fiend that uses B&W for the fronts DM 601 for the left and right and the B&W CC 6. Though they sound great in music and films, they do sound Topy for film playback and all it needs is EQ applied to the fronts as I have done a sound alignment doing a basic test calibration using the dts music and demo which has wide band pink noise and a Denon Hi-Fi CD test disc where I use the 1KHz and 8KHz for timber matching, though the B&W CC6 was a pig to get right with basic up and down of the output level on the Kenwood KRF-X9050D Dolby dts THX select AVR. It does however limit the performance play back needs, but he likes it has it is, and I can do it a whole lot better if he used the pre-outputs on the Kenwood KRF-X9050D, which is the same AVR I'm also using and I only use Matching loudspeakers like the JBL control 5 three-screen plays an important roll in the sound. With matching amplifiers EQ's and active X-over there is less harshness to the mid and top range and if there is any exclusive use of 16KHz of HF sound like in Alien 3 the bio-scanner scene where there is a pinching sound wow, that's high, and though its not every day I hear 16KHz at my age of 38 years old, where most people in the 20's have lost there high spectrum range, I know what does this have to do with this Thread, a lot sound is sound nothing more than electrical frequencies, if I'm not mistaking.... |
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Silver Member Username: Stu_pittNYC, NY Pakistan Post Number: 166 Registered: May-05 | James Lee - I'd love to hear their training secrets too. Not to put down any sales people here personally, esp. Jan. I know they all don't run scams, but it would be nice to know what tricks they have up there sleeves for the next time I shop. |
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New member Username: BudzenkoPost Number: 1 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm about to buy new speakers to go with a new Denon AVR-3805. I'm leaning toward B&W; a pair of DM602s in front a LCR60 in between and a pair of the DM600 in the rear. The B&W ASW675 technology is exciting but pricey. I feel B&W represnts a great value compared to Paradigm's Performance series speakers, and certainly more sound that any lesser Paradigm products. Now I'm shopping for the best deal. Any tips on where to buy? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2076 Registered: Aug-04 | Bud, You might want to consider the LCR 600, and 601's or 602's for rears if you are into DVD-A and SACD. But even for movies, the center needs to carry a lot of the sound. Just my opinion based on my experiences of starting with the smaller rears and ending up with 602's front and back. Good choices regardless. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1045 Registered: Feb-05 | Bud, the B&W 600 series is a fine speaker but I would stay away from the B&W subs. I had the ASW750 in my system for an in home audition and it just didn't work for me. Perhaps you will have a different experience. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4319 Registered: May-04 | Guys, I spent 25 years selling audio and I never once attended a "how to cheat with speakers" seminar. Which is fine; they probably served crappy food to those who showed up. That is not to say there aren't dishonest dealers out there. But the tricks I've seen are often too much work to bother with any longer. Disconnecting one tweeter in a pair of speakers or changing the X-over in a design is more than most places want to bother with. The typical sales ruse is merely accomplished with positioning speakers and controlling volume. I'm sure you all know how boundary effects will influence a speaker's sound. And even 0.5dB of volume difference will tilt you toward the louder pair of identical speakers. Most salespeople know what music will make the speakers with the spiff sound better than the speakers without the spiff. It's pretty elementary. But, most independent audio shops can't afford to try this stuff. If you're shopping at a store where the speakers are lined up twenty thick on the walls and the speaker selector just switches between pairs, you should find a better dealer. Now, about that "special" 150 watt Citation 16 we had under the cabinet in the speaker room at Pacific Stereo ... I know nuthin'!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4330 Registered: May-04 | Hubert - I can't tell you what car a B&W would be. Is there a car that is done in Technicolor? That's what the B&W line would be. Many years ago B&W sounded very much like most other British Speakers (except Wharfedale which never sounded British). It was somewhat difficult to distinguish between a KEF and B&W. When the British hifi market shrank with their economy in the late 1970's and early '80's, B&W discovered the large American audio market. Suddenly the 801's sounded much more like like JBL's than Harbeths. The marketing of B&W in the States paid off and put B&W in the position of the largest selling speaker line. Their distribution has increased and many other British speakers have adopted their Americanized sound to some extent or another. Since B&W has been a speaker maufacturer, making their own raw drivers, for decades they finally had the money for research and the ability to implement the research to lead the market with many innovations. The JBL-like sound of the early 1980's B&W's has been refined into a distinct B&W sound. While some audio salespeople may turn up their nose at B&W, many know its a very difficult speaker to compete against. B&W owners are often like Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura owners in that they love their speakers. And their speakers, while not striving to be the best speaker in the world (for most of the line), afford excellent overall performance for the money. But they are not the Heather Mist biege Accord or Camry, they are the screaming yellow Integras and GT's. |
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New member Username: BudzenkoPost Number: 2 Registered: Jun-05 | Is a raw driver for listening to sushi? Seriously, what is raw driver and a driver that is not raw? |
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New member Username: BudzenkoPost Number: 3 Registered: Jun-05 | My Rantz, Tell me more of your experiance regarding SACD listening and sizing the rears smaller than the fronts. I'm leaning towards a pair of DM602s up front. The center channel LCR60 in the middle. The larger center channel is a budget buster for me unless there is very convincing argument. Music is my primary focus I want a versitile 5.1 system for music CD and SACD as well as for watching DVD performances, like the Last Waltz, Concert for George, Diana Krall. Movie explosions are secondary. Movie Music is primary. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2082 Registered: Aug-04 | Bud, Considering the power of your source, the 602's imho, are a good choice for your main speakers. If you are like me and like sacd in surround (as well as DVD-A or DVD-V in DD/DTS 5.1) then I recommend that your rears should be the same, not only for timbre matching, but for the sometimes equal distribution of sound levels to all speakers (especially with the hi-res surround music formats). I have the 602's and acquired the 601's for rears and I felt they just didn't quite have the oomph required for some hi-res surround music. When I replaced the rears with another pair of 602's I found eveything was right - they had the punch that made listening spot on and seamless. I also think the more powerful LCR 600 will be worth the extra as the center works very hard at times and the LCR 600 is excellent for very clear vocals and also, you would not be pushing it when requiring louder volumes. It's not that you would go wrong with your original choice just, if you can afford it, in my opinion, the advice will merely add to your music pleasure. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2083 Registered: Aug-04 | Bud, One thing I did not mention was the fact that we have a fairly large room (24x22 with high sloping ceiling and open to sitting room, kitchen and hall) and the larger speakers help fill the area with sound. The smaller rears and center may be okay if you have small to meduim listening area, but if future needs change that might be worth considering also. |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 707 Registered: Dec-03 | One salesman's tacting is to find out your budget and show you 3 products - with the one in the middle being the one at your price point. Let's say you answer with $1000 being your budget for a bookshelf. He will try to sell you that one by showing you a $900 speaker, and $1500 speaker. But the $900 one will be considerably worse than the $1000 one he is trying to sell you, so you think aha, mine is a good choice, since for only $100 more, I am getting a much better speaker. And the $1500 speaker he shows you is not much better at all if any - so you think to yourself again, indeed I made the right choice, since paying considerably more doesn't buy me much improvement. Got it? Also they try to make you decide on the spot by saying we have a sale on these until tomorrow and offer you a discount, if you are about to leave. Mind buggling to fathom the statement "buyer beware" is as old as the Western civilization - the Greeks. ________________________________________ I don't want to group all the salesman and say they are all crooks - there must be many honest ones I am sure, but "buyer beware!" I was in an audio shop not long ago, and I mentioned Krell and audio research and he said those were never good products - later I found out when ever I mentioned a product they didn't have, he said they are bad bad products, and only the ones they carried are great - wasn't even funny. According to him, Linn classik are great and better than krell and audio research. Someone who is new to hifi will be taken for a ride with a salesman like that - sad to think. I am glad there are sights like this, for rookies to gain honest info from people who really want them to enjoy good music at home. I do research before I buy any product now - this way, I am much happier with my purchases. _____________________________________________ Did you know that mark up for speakers are almost 10 folds in many cases? (from the production cost to retail) If you like building stuff, you might want to try kits. There are also many ideas for DIY speakers on google. You will end up with more quality, and it's fun. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4337 Registered: May-04 | I don't discourage DIY; in fact I think you learn much more about audio by having more required of you than just plugging some wires into a piece of equipment you unwrapped. But, obviously the largest drawback to DIY is you can't hear the finished product until you've invested time and money. Of course you could read those reviews that tell you everything the seller makes is wonderful. (Ever read an on line testimony that says the stuff blows?) If you don't care for what you've built, the resale on DIY speakers is lower than the resale on DIY parachutes. Besides, don't you think the people selling you the DIY kits made some profit? And the people who sold them the stuff to put in the DIY kit probably made some profit also? DIY is great; everyone should try at least one DIY project. But it is not without profit or risk. Where's your brother in law work that he got this sterling advice on selling? (I am not looking to revive the "salespeople" thread.) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4350 Registered: May-04 | "Seriously, what is raw driver and a driver that is not raw?" If you are serious, scroll down and you will see raw drivers toward the bottom of the page. http://www.welbornelabs.com/recomendspeaks.htm |
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Somed00d Unregistered guest | 1973 neon green AMC Gremlin. With 100 spoke gold daytons. |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 711 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, He used to have musical instruments shops, and he used to goto salesman's workshops. Now he turned Christian, and no longer has the drive to make money by playing these games. To answer the car analogy, I would say B&W=BMW (their top line), but their entry level stuff is a scooter. Good sounding ones start at $1000 US (not 600 series) |
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Bronze Member Username: ShahrukhdMumbai, Maharashtra India Post Number: 67 Registered: Nov-04 | An ambassador. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2084 Registered: Aug-04 | "Good sounding ones start at $1000 US (not 600 series)" Codswhallop! |
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