Cable question
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Bronze Member Username: LazybSLC, UT Post Number: 13 Registered: May-05 | So, my boss keeps letting me borrow cool stuff, he just leant me some Kimber Monocle XL speaker cable. Should I keep using my Monster Z2 Biwire? or Use the Kimber Monocle? In your opinions which would be the better? |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 838 Registered: Feb-05 | JT, no one can answer this question because you give us no info on the equipment connected. I will say that my experience with Kimber has been overwhelmingly positive both with interconnects and speaker cable. |
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Bronze Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 84 Registered: Apr-05 | It doesn't make any difference; speaker cables are speaker cables are speaker cables. To my knowledge, there has never been a double-blind listening test which demonstrated, with any statistical significance, audible differences in sound using different speaker cables. Read the following excerpt from Peter Aczel's article, "The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio." "The Cable Lie" "Logically this is not the lie to start with because cables are accessories, not primary audio components. But it is the hugest, dirtiest, most cynical, most intelligence-insulting and, above all, most fraudulently profitable lie in audio, and therefore must go to the head of the list. The lie is that high-priced speaker cables and interconnects sound better than the standard, run-of-the-mill (say, Radio Shack) ones. It is a lie that has been exposed, shamed, and refuted over and over again by every genuine authority under the sun, but the tweako audio cultists hate authority and the innocents can't distinguish it from self-serving charlatanry. The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections. In basic electrical performance, however, a nice pair of straightened-out wire coat hangers with the ends scraped is not a whit inferior to a $2000 gee-whiz miracle cable. Nor is 16-gauge lamp cord at 18¢ a foot. Ultrahigh-priced cables are the biggest scam in consumer electronics, and the cowardly surrender of nearly all audio publications to the pressures of the cable marketers is truly depressing to behold." |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 904 Registered: Feb-05 | Jimvm and I usually agree, but not on this. I easily hear the difference between some cables. I would agree that there is very little correlation between bucks spent and good results. However there are differences between cables that often equal a differnce in sound. |
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Anonymous | Talk about a stupid question. If he let you borrow it, you might as well try it and see if it's worth anything. |
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Bronze Member Username: LazybSLC, UT Post Number: 14 Registered: May-05 | Well, I obviously plan on trying them out. Just wanted to get feedback about the differences jumping from a more or less standard BiWire cable to a very high end single cable. And in regards to what equipment I'm running, I've got a Pioneer 56TXI reciever, 2 KEF XQ5's is what I'll be hooking them up to, (currently have the XQ5's hooked up to an Ayre V-3 amp. |
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Anonymous | Well as Jimvm said, there is basically no measurable difference between cables. So as a result, it is in the ear (or mind) of the beholder. Everyones ears are different. You may hear a difference. You may not. That difference could be favorable or not. Good luck. |
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Walrus Unregistered guest | JT if you think biwiring is cool wait until you try Tri-Wiring. It does unfortunately require a very specialized type of Titanium-turbocharged Tri-Wire wire, goes for about $430/square foot but really worth it, my imaging went straight through the roof. |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 61 Registered: Apr-05 | Only way to find out is hook them up and listen. Don't listen to JimV or others that want you to think all wires sound the same. Thats a crock. If that were true, answer me this: How on earth could hundreds of companies stay in business making exotic and esoteric cables costing as much as $500.00/ft if they sounded like the ones you buy at Woolworths for $2.96? Do you honestly think people are that stupid to piss away thousands of dollars on cable if it didn't improve the system sonically? Perhaps some would be, but not nearly enough to keep all them cable firms in business. Are they over-priced? Well, some are yeah. Do they sound the same? Absolutely not. |
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Anonymous | Answer me this Paul. How does Bose not only stay in business, but do extremely well? Do you honestly think people are that stupid to piss away thousands of dollars on garbage systems that are outperformed by a 200 dollar system from Radio Shack? |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 905 Registered: Feb-05 | I ain't Paul but the answer is yes. But that has nothing to do with cables. Cables make a difference but you don't have to buy Nordost Valhalla's to hear it. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1371 Registered: Jan-05 | To answer your question Anon..... Yes There's a reason that you'll never see Bose next to other brands in stores. They may seem 'ok' when you have no benchmark to compare them against, but once you put them next to a real speaker, Bose will sound like garbage. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784Post Number: 416 Registered: Nov-04 | im not gonna join this slug fest, but it seems like paul b. magically reappeared when the real maui started posting. go figure. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1374 Registered: Jan-05 | Ouch.... You wont catch me pitching those paperweights. I was considering purchasing a pair of GMAs to be used as nicknacks on my SVS though. |
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Anonymous | Cables may or may not make a difference, but Paul B. offered a question. In response I offered him one. Live with it assh0les. |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 842 Registered: Feb-05 | Jimvm is wrong. Maybe he can't hear the difference due to equipment or other limitations. And on mediocre systems there may not be an audible difference. However, on my reference system, Kimber made an obvious difference. Music was simply more detailed and nuanced. Could cleraly hear certain instruments that were muted using another cable. |
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Anonymous | Good for you Dale. |
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New member Username: SpinzeroState College, PA Post Number: 1 Registered: Jun-05 | Audio is one place where art meets science. While there are many experts that understand the both aspects of it fully well, often times people that have the experience and the taste on the "art" part of this hobby have little to no background in science, and are utterly misinformend in that aspect. As such, they may know some very specific technical knowledges that they picked up over the years, but do not in fact understand the basic physical principals that are the basis of all modern electronics. And normally that is fine. I certainly don't look for your average electrical engineer for an advice when I'm shopping for speakers. I listen to the people that deeply understand the way loudspeakers should reproduce the music. The problem is however, that there is nothing "art" about cables. If you measured two cables and found that they had nearly identical RLC, then they are in fact the same for our purpose. If there is a factor other than RLC that determines the characteristics of electromagnetic signal flow inside the cable, then your name will replace Maxwell in Maxwell's equation. Which is possible, but ever since those four equations were discovered in the 19th century, (in the process of shaping the modern world as we know it) they have survived infinitely tougher challenges than someone's golden ears. On top of that, the logic that is often used to prove these claims are the ones that, if valid, would also prove that UFO's exist and Elvis is alive. Believers and anecdotes don't make something true. In the end, of course the believers will always believe. But if you haven't made your mind up yet on this subject, do some research before you do so. |
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Bronze Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 85 Registered: Apr-05 | Well said Len. Welcome to the forum and great first post! |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 62 Registered: Apr-05 | Anonymous, Bose stays in business many ways. First, like Rolex watches, people assume they are the best. Second, many many people don't care about sound quality, but DO care about looks and ease of use and brand name recognition. Third, they have a HUGE advertising budget. In case you missed it in advertising 101, advertising WORKS. Works for Bose, Kia, Hyundai, Sanyo, Sharp and a whole host of crap products. Worked for the US Governent too.....how do ya think they talked America in to a war in Iraq? ADVERTISING. CNN, FOX, CNBC, ABC, etc. Bose has Bullshi**ed us into thinking they are the greatest. Call the 800 number for the Wave Radio. Tell the salesperson you have Krell Seperates with a Cary CDP and Wilson Alexandria speakers. They will tell you in a straight voice, the wave radio will outperform your current system or your money back. Then they will ask for your credit card number. It works. Happy now? |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 63 Registered: Apr-05 | Len Eun, welcome to the forum. Nice post, but I do have a question. Are we talking HI-END audio or mid fi stuff? If we are talking mid fi, I agre. If it's HI-END.....I beg to differ. Hi End systems should EASILY reveal differences in both speaker wire as well as interconnect cables. Mine does. Not one person that has listened hasn't heard the differences. Not one. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 575 Registered: Sep-04 | The wrong cable can make a good system into a boring system as far as I'm concerned. Examples: Naim cable with Naim system - great combination. Chord Odyssey on Naim amp - more resolution, ruined timing. Chord Electronics amp with Naim cable - shut in, low resolution, bloated bass, screechy treble, recessed midrange. Chord Electronics amp with Townshend Isolda or Goertz M3 cable - balanced sound with a touch of warmth, loads of resolution, open sound. No difference? Pull the other one... Jimvm, as to the Ten Best Lies, the whole premise and test equipment does not allow for the differences to come through. The poor quality of the connections (even when new) used in the tests simply precluded any reasonable results. Len, nicely said but totally wrong I'm afraid. Ask your speaker building friends to try lengths of QED Silver Anniversary in their speakers and lengths of Chord Rumour in their speakers. These are cables with very similar RLC characteristics. If they do not detect a difference in the sound from their identical speakers, then either the speakers weren't identical or they're deaf... JT - Try the two cables and see which one YOU prefer - and let us know what you think. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 946 Registered: Feb-05 | Bravo Frank! Ears are all that counts in audio. If you hear a difference, pay no mind to those who tell you that it is impossible. If you don't hear a difference then you are blessed as you have less need to worry about the same critical listening considerations that others must. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 585 Registered: Sep-04 | ...and blessed in that you don't have to spend ludicrous amounts of money on cable... |
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Bronze Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 87 Registered: Apr-05 | It doesn't surprise me at all to see all you folks with "golden ears" poo-pooing ABX double-blind listening tests; anything remotely scientific seems to be viewed by you folks with great skepticism. According to Douglas Self, a professional audio engineer, "The most significant parameter of a loudspeaker cable is probably its lumped inductance. This can cause minor variations in frequency response at the very top of the audio band, given a demanding load impedance. These deviations are unlikely to exceed 0.1 dB for reasonable cable constructions. (eg inductance less than 4 uH) The resistance of a typical cable (perhaps 0.1 Ohm) causes response variations across the band, following the speaker impedance curve, but these are usually even smaller at around 0.05 dB. THIS IS NOT AUDIBLE." (emphasis mine) This comes from Self's article, "Science and Subjectivism in Audio". To read the entire article, which I highly recommend, see: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm Of course, there's a lot of science in the article so I suspect there'll be a lot of poo-pooing by you "golden eared" folk.  BTW, be sure to click on the link "ABX Double-Blind Comparator and Results" on the first page. Then click on "ABX Data." Then go down to ABX Test Data and click on "Speaker Wires." |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2030 Registered: Aug-04 | Jimvm, Respectfully, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but really the true tests are the ones we conduct ourselves. I recently rewired my speakers as I decided to fit banana plugs and I also removed the gold jumper bars and replaced them with a reasonably heavy guage speaker wire. Several hours later I returned to play some music. I was not thinking about the changes I had made and immediately noticed a difference in the sound I was used to hearing. Although the sound difference was subtle it was as noticable as when I changed the old Monster cable for Kimber. You may believe all you read - that's fine - but I certainly don't. You cannot tell me there is no difference in speaker wire, though I am quite willing to let you go on believing it. LOL! Can you tell us if you have tried various types of speaker wire yourself? I don't mean different brands of the same wire but cables of various configurations. |
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Bronze Member Username: JimvmLouisiana U.S.A. Post Number: 88 Registered: Apr-05 | I have used different types of speaker wire with different speakers but have not had occasion to change wires on the same speakers in order to note any differences. My position is based on the literature I've read on the topic, mostly by audio engineer types. I am, by no means, an audio expert but as an objective observer I look at the two positions: On the one hand are the scientists and engineers who base their position on scientific facts, research and testing. They offer a fair amount of empirical data to support their position. On the other hand are the "believers" or as Doug Self calls them, the "subjectivists." They offer nothing but, "I know what I heard" -- all based on very unscientific, uncontrolled testing, e.g., A/B switching, etc. Knowing that the human ear is not a scientific instrument and knowing that what we "hear" is affected by our other senses and that we are influenced by what we know ahead of time, I tend to come down on the side of the non-believers. I'm not a scientist but I've read about ABX double-blind testing and see nothing wrong with how they are done. It's funny but "believers" who participate in ABX testing don't slam the tests until they learn the results. I've read where "believers" have agreed to submit to ABX testing, have carefully read the testing protocol, agreed with it and went into the tests supremely confident that they'd be able to hear differences in, say amplifiers. They come out of the tests and are questioned about how they viewed the test and they almost uniformly say it was fairly conducted. Then, when they discover that the number of their correct answers were no more statistically significant than chance, only then, they claim the test was flawed. I also wonder why the manufacturers of very expensive cables do not conduct and publish the results of ABX testing. I've been to several websites and have yet to see one which touts such tests as proof that their cables make a difference. I do see alot of "technobabble" on their sites. So, I guess, in the final analysis we will agree to disagree on this one. I've read this same debate many times in audio fora and it appears that the believers have dug in their heels just about as firmly as the non-believers. Until I see scientific data supporting your position, I will maintain mine. I do hope we can all agree that the important thing is that we all enjoy our audio gear -- whether or not we had to mortgage the house to buy those cables. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2031 Registered: Aug-04 | I do think there would be difficulties in blind testing under conditions other than those in one's own environment. We get used to our own conditions - audio systems, room acoustics and so on. Also, hearing the variant subtleties might be dependent on the type music used in these tests however fairly they may be administered. However, never having taken part in such things I really would not know. I will agree that those super expensive cables would most likely not be worth the money vs audio quality enhancement although some may disagree with that. Some people will spend a few thousand extra on speakers to gain a couple of percent extra in sound quality. I'd like to be in a postion to be one of those people. As long as we are content with our own bits of wire debates on the subject are really moot. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 131 Registered: Dec-04 | It is strange that no cable manufacturer has ever set up an independent test to prove that their cables sound better than the rest - or even better than bell wire. You would think that with lots of people around like Frank and My Rantz who find it easy to spot the difference, it would be well worthwhile for them to prove, once and for all, that there is an audible diference. A possible scenario is - no time limits, cables installed in the volunteers houses, but covered in a thick tube and sealed at the amp and speaker ends to hide which model they are. Or any other method of testing, chosen by the volunteer, but strictly monitored. $1500 for each percent above random chance for approval of the manufacturer's cable, as an incentive to take part. (They can easily afford that sort of advertising as long as it works) Any cable firm who did this and got a positive score would be guaranteed of a massive sales boost. I don't understand why don't they do some tests like this? lol |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 959 Registered: Feb-05 | Frank I don't spend ludicrous amounts of money on cables. I always state that there is very little correlation between the amount of money you spend and the quality of the cable. Post #4 of this thread. However what I have spent has been well worth it. I spent $2.25 per ft on speaker cable for the mains and less than 1 dollar per ft on the rears. My interconnects are $45 per 1 meter pair. These are not unresonable sums considering the investment that I have in my system. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 1018 Registered: Mar-05 | diablo raises a very, very good point. Wouldn't the cable manufacturers have the MOST to gain from such a publicized testing if they're so sure of their product? If I were in their shoes and really believed that there was a noticeable difference I would jump at it. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2032 Registered: Aug-04 | http://www.stereotimes.com/comm041805.shtm Also posted on thread, "Do you listen" |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 67 Registered: Apr-05 | From the same magazine.....stereotimes comes this. Perhaps a contradiction in terms? http://www.stereotimes.com/acc020204.shtm |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 2037 Registered: Aug-04 | Yes perhaps, but the writer obviously admits to varying audio qualities from different cables. I too agree that some cable prices are just plain ridiculous. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 970 Registered: Feb-05 | Exactly My Rantz. All I have said is that there are differences in sound between cables. Not that I will pay fortune for it. |
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Anonymous | high-end audio cables = tax on stupidity. /story |
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New member Username: SpinzeroPA Post Number: 3 Registered: Jun-05 | My Rantz, regarding your comment that the true tests are the ones we conduct ourselves. When I look at Audio as a hobby and nothing more, (and also as a part time Buddhist) I can completely agree with that statement. Enjoyment is in essence subjective, and if you enjoy the music more because of your new cable, the distinction between whether the difference came from the physical world or your psychology isn't important at all. However, if we were to make an objective statement that tries to explain the physical reality of nature, I honestly cannot think of a less scientific way to do so than testing something in your home with your own ears. The proper rigor that is required to prove things like that in a trully objective way is many orders of magnitude higher, and usually involves spending five years in the basement to run the experiment, and spending another two years eliminating other possibilities. And as for the cable companies, I believe that the proper business practice would be to go through such procedures BEFORE making a claim that seemingly contradicts the current prediction of science, let alone refusing to do so for thirty years as an industry while making claims that got bolder and bolder. Finally, I wanna thank everyone for taking my first post seriously. Very different from an automobile forum that I frequent. haha |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 897 Registered: Feb-04 | I hadn't noticed this thread... I've never heard a difference due to cables... A group of people from another forum got together to do a blind test using a very cheap cable (10 cents a foot) and a few very expensive cables (unfortunately, I don't recall if there were any in between). They noticed a difference between the cheapest cable and all the others, with the cheapest sounding better. As a scientist, this tells me what there are no aubible difference once the cable is good enough (because they don't alter the sound) and that they very cheap cable was altering their sound. But instead of coming to this conclusion, they all wanted to buy the ultra cheap cable for their systems! |
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New member Username: SpinzeroPA Post Number: 4 Registered: Jun-05 | Peter, how would you know which one was actually altering the sound? Some people say that when comparing a regular priced CD player and an ultra expensive ones, the more expensive one often distorts the signal to produce more tube-like sound. While I do not know if this is in fact true, it seems to me like the same kind of thing can also happen to cables. I would personally be more willing to believe that ultra exotic construction may change the signal than simple copper wire. |
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Bronze Member Username: TorchumPost Number: 11 Registered: Jun-05 | WOW...I've read all these and quite simply agree with all sides to this querry. A recent water test of bottled water with the best taste was conducted and not with science but actual taste buds. The Evian and other imported fancy waters placed poorly against the clear winner...NEW YORK TAP WATER. Funny how I (and probably everyone breathing) still am not going to buy New York tap water but I'm definitely not buying anything French. Gotta go, my UFO is here to take me to my Scientology class. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 898 Registered: Feb-04 | Len asked: Peter, how would you know which one was actually altering the sound? The aim of a cable is to not alter the sound. Therefore, if a bunch of expensive cables sound identical and a very cheap one sounds different, which do you think is altering the sound? I'm about to leave for the long weekend (Canada Day) so likely won't reply for a few days... |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 617 Registered: Sep-04 | Torchum, The same test was done in South East England a few months ago. Thames Water tap won the day there too. Art, I was just adding to your note that the original poster should be happy since he prefers the cheap cable. I was not suggesting you paid lots of cash for your cables. Considering one of my interconnects costs more than the sum of all your cables, I think your cables are very reasonably priced. Jimvm, it pays to read up abnout various things. However, in the final analysis it's your experience that counts. After all, being told that the Space Mountain is a fantastic rollercoaster ride is not the same as you actually having been on it. You may find that the Space Mountain ride is actually rather tame by comparison to other rides you've been on. The scientific argument. There have been many double blind tests, some by magazines (last one I read was HiFi+ a few months back). Generally they acknowledge that there are differences. The question always remains value for money. I disagree with the ABX test methods since the ABX comparator is an active part of the system. This is a bit like saying that it can't have any sonic signature! The chances are it does have a sonic signature and given the low connector quality etc, it stands to reason that it is most likely the lowest denominator (like a headphone comparator) leading to skewed or useless results. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 86 Registered: Jun-05 | I have following this thread since it started.Yes im one who does think cables make as much difference as anything else in the chain.Yes it doesent always meaning costing more,hey i have some $750 bi wire cable by W.B.T. and their just sitting in my closet.Its all about synergy as with any hi fi equipment.The W.B.T.s worked great with my Totem Arros and Unison gear but not with my Musical Fidelity gear.Its all system matching. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1512 Registered: Jan-05 | "WOW...I've read all these and quite simply agree with all sides to this querry." ============================= It looks like we have a new Democrat frontrunner preparing himself for the 2008 election. |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 72 Registered: Apr-05 | Like I said previously: Are we talking Hi End audio like Edge or Rowland/ Ultimate monitor or something like Arcam/ Paradigm quality? If it's the former, yes cables make a difference. If it's the latter? Perhaps not. |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 73 Registered: Apr-05 | Christopher.....just read your post and don't get it. What are you trying to say? Me and the maui dude are in cahoots or what? Never been to maui but am going to hanalulu later this month for a wedding. Gonna trim those grass skirts a few inches higher :-) I'm in the Twin Cities.....Mpls/St Paul |
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bumblebee Unregistered guest | cables are SUPPOSED to transfer signals from point A to B UNALTERED. you hear no differences from cables designed this way (the RLC are kept as low as possible). some cables have the RLC altered to sound warm or bright, and affects a system like tone controls do. |
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Bronze Member Username: TorchumPost Number: 13 Registered: Jun-05 | I just love an imovable discussion that parlays all the very true concepts yet still no one wins. Paul... Democrat maybe, but my dam Canadian phylum won't let me be anything but a Libby. Seriously though, Paul B. and many others concur on the same and simple criteria...quality! For an example of a different gear head...You can place the most sophisticated ignition system on your 74' Pacer and you will experience nothing more than diminishing return. Place a 74' Pacer's ignition system on John Force's 7000 hp Funny Car (bare with me on this one) and you get a 74' Pacer. IMHO Bumblebee...that sure makes sense. THANKS cause man am I still learning |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 81 Registered: Apr-05 | Lot of Pacer drivers in the forum |
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