Are speakers better today than 15 years ago?
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New member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 10 Registered: Apr-05 | I am not an engineer, so I'm wondering -- what if any big changes or advances have been made in speakers over the past 15 years? Are today's entry level bookshelf speakers any better than entry level speakers from 15 years ago? I have a pair of old entry-level KEF K-120 bookshelf speakers from the early 1990s. I'd kind of like to replace them just because they look so tired. But are any of today's speakers (in the $1,500 or under range) really going to sound enormously better or different than these old KEFs? Have there been huge advances made in speaker design? Seems like you've got a small box and 2 drivers, same as ever, so how much better/different can monitors be? Looking at a sample of relatively low priced Brit speakers (B&W, Quad, Spendor, Epos, KEF) I wonder are they any better today than before? |
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Silver Member Username: Virus5877West Lafayette, Indiana USA Post Number: 150 Registered: Apr-05 | probably the biggest change IMHO is in driver material. 15 years ago, most speakers were made of paper or polymer. now you see all kind of metal composites, kevlar, ceramic composites... all this new technology leads to clearer, more efficient, better sounding speakers. also, after 15 years, the surrounds on your old KEF's is probably harder than it used to be, so you really SHOULD either replace them, or recone them. as far as speakers I'd recommend: B&W 705 - 1500/pair B&W nautilus 805 - 2000/pair I'm not familiar with the other brands. |
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Anonymous | There haven't been any major breakthroughs per say. There are lots of different designs out there though, so you may well find something you like better. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 868 Registered: Feb-05 | It's not so much what has changed in the last 15 yrs, and plenty has, but that trickle down technology more rapidly reaches down to the entry level than it did before. There are countless good $300 bookshelf speakers now. I mean really good musical speakers. That just was not the case all that long ago. My opinion if you like what you have enjoy them. Then again I doubt this thread would have happened if you are completely satisfied. All of the Brit speakers you mentioned are in some ranges fabulous. I am a bit of an anglophile when it comes to audio gear anyway but I really love the Spendor, Epos, and Quad ranges. I listened to Spendor's just the other day with a NAIM amp...beautiful. Good luck shopping. |
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Silver Member Username: TwebbzAnn Arbor, Michigan USA Post Number: 125 Registered: Apr-04 | Yes, there are many bookshelf speakers to choose from now. But, there are some gems from the past that still sound great. I recently discoverd a pair KLH Model 24 speakers in my partners attic and was startled by their great sound. The highs (tweeter is 2" cone w/center dome) sparkle and are smooth. The bass (6" woofer) is very tight and controlled and fairly deep. The woofer has a (rubber?) impregnated cloth surround. They were destined for the yard sale but I'm keeping them. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 559 Registered: Sep-04 | Warning: There's an awful lot of rubbish out there. There have been lots of improvements in longer throw driver technology, meaning that a 6.5inch drive unit can reproduce a lot more of the frequency range than a 15 year old 8 inch drive unit could, and do it better thanks to the newer stiffer lighter materials that are in use. That said, these materials aren't commonly found in the cheaper speakers, and speakers still suffer from cabinet restrictions. i.e. most cabinets are made from MDF and the cheaper ones aren't particularly well braced. This makes cabinets honk, giving the overall speaker (whether new or old) a particular colouration. Furthermore, most speakers are ported nowadays whereas many speakers were sealed in the old days. A ported cabinet means that you'll get more noise out of the cabinet due simply to the exhaust factor of the port (a port is a hole in the box, usually with a tube which is a particular length tuned to a frequency that is meant to be sympathetic to the speaker's design - but in practice is usually all too obvious). You will also find a plethora of speakers that now accept biwiring. This can be a real bonus on some speakers but in many cases you have to play this up against the extra cash you have to pay for the extra cable (or a single run of better cable sounding better). So the biwiring and new materials mean that speakers should behave better than their 15-year old counterparts, but the cabinetry remains an issue so it will depend on your tastes. Hence my warning at the beginning of this note... Regards, Frank. |
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Rusin Unregistered guest | I recently posted a similar question, though in relation to my 15 year old ADS M12 Towers. I paid $1200.00 in 1990 and have been quite happy with them. After going on my first speaker audition in 15 years, I found that I would have to pay at least 3 to 6 grand to get better sound. Of course, the same may not apply to bookshelf speakers. There were some great responses from very knowledgeable posters. In sum, it sounds like computer technology has enhanced the capability of maufactures to make acurate/musical speakers for less cost but a well designed speaker that sounded good in an earlier era is still going to sound good today. Too my ears, my ADS tower was a clear winner over the Paradigm Sudio 100. I would need to step up to the Signature series to hear improvement. I did audition the S2 bookshelf from that series - it's well worth a listen, especially matched with a good sub. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3243 Registered: Dec-03 | Hubert, Looking at the spec on http://www.kef.com/history/1990_1/k120.htm ...I think it could be a case of "if it works, don't fix it". KEF have always made good two-driver sealed-box designs. |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 11 Registered: Apr-05 | Good advice John A. Problem w/ audiophilia nervosa is that even if what you have sounds good, you always wonder whether other stuff out there sounds better. And unless you spend all your life in audio stores (like, maybe if you work in one) it's difficult to hear a broad cross-section of speakers. And the magazines are almost useless. Everything's either "crystal clear resolution, transparent," or "it's not the last word in resolution, but it's so musical, and it really sings." WTF? Reading mags only makes me more confused. I looked at the specs for the old KEFs. Not sure what to make of them. Based on specs the new B&W 602 S3 has wider frequency range, deeper bass, higher sensitivity, etc. |
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Anonymous | Based on specs, there are Sony speakers with a wider frequency range, deeper bass, higher sensitivity, etc. |
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Bronze Member Username: AudioholicPost Number: 58 Registered: Apr-05 | To answer your question, the drivers have gotten much better in recent years. Especially smaller drivers. What has gotten worse, in my humble opinion is speaker designers relying too much on computer programs to design product, not paying enough attention to making cabinetry quieter, damping material and most of all crossovers. As Frank said, there are lots of junk speakers out there. As Rusin said, the old ADS speakers were very good. He woudn't have to go to $3-6K to best them though. Very good speakers though, ADS. I concur the ADS you have would best the Paradigm Studio 100's. Nice midrange on those, if I recall. Softdome mid, no? Like all technology, we take the good with the bad. Whats hard is sorting it all out. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4207 Registered: May-04 | 1) Has the sound of music changed in the last fifteen years? At least for you. 2) Were your speakers musical and honest fifteen years ago? 3) If you're not sure, you only have to listen and compare to find out. 4) Use music as your reference; not other speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 12 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan: My speakers were, 15 years ago, the best ones I could afford on a very limited (grad student) budget. Now have more money but probably less common sense.  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4208 Registered: May-04 | Well then, yes, speakers have improved over the grad school budget products. With up to $1,500 to spend you should be able to make a decidedly better choice this time around. There haven't been any "huge advances" since you bought your speakers. In general that's not how HiFi works. Mostly for the reasons I and others have suggested; music hasn't changed in the past 15 years and there are only so many ways to stitch a purse. As with most things, computers have made the job of the designer a bit easier by being able to more accurately predict what is likely to happen before the actual cutting and pasting begins. Computers have also made the designer's job far more difficult by allowing more competition than fifteen years ago. The number of speaker "manufacturers" grows by leaps and bounds each year. There are some new wrinkles and some better materials. They often bring more marketing to the price range than true advancement of the art. As has been pointed out, the failure of most budget oriented speakers is always the same; making the speaker stand out in a crowded demonstration room without sounding "like a speaker". There is only so much that can be done within a price range and, for the most part, it has already been done. There have always been good sounding budget speakers. With your current budget what has improved the most is the luxury you can afford to take while choosing. Now that the grad school budget restrictions are gone, you can be more open to designs you might not have even listened to in 1990. I would say you can improve your system by purchasing a new speaker in the $1,500 price range. But, being a fan of old stuff, I would say you could also improve your system by purchasing a used pair of speakers that have come down to $1,500. If it was musical then, it's still musical now. But you haven't mentioned your other components and what will be powering these new speakers. It is possible to buy too much speaker for a grad school budget amplifier. Then you'll wonder why you spent $1,500 on speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3244 Registered: Dec-03 | Hubert, I agree with Jan. I started this short thread a year ago: KEF. A short tale of value, service, customer satisfaction. Perhaps it will help raise your estimation of your speakers! If you are keen to get a better sound, buy some stands (if you do not already have them). As Jan says, it is difficult to make suggestions without knowing the rest of your system. My best speakers, until recently, were 1980 KEF Corellis. A few months ago I bought the speakers I might have got in those days, if I'd had the money, Quad ESL 63 (link to a thread on those). I see a pair of ESL 57s, which were the current model then, for private sale at £550 - that is about as the retail price for a new pair all those years ago. So my opinion is definitely that not much has improved, in the speaker world, since you bought those "Entry-level" speakers, and you are unlikely to get a better sound by just getting a newer pair. If you are determined to upgrade, I wonder if you have considered the ones you might have got, if you'd had more money, in 1990 - and what those were......?! (I aways thought/hoped that one day I would be able to afford the KEF Reference series, and Quads were only for the really wealthy...) |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1335 Registered: Jan-05 | Hubert, If you have more money and less common sense, I believe Jan can help you with your speaker recommendation. The only catch is that unless you meet certain hearing criteria, you wont be able to discerne the quality of the message, and it will sound like gobblidy-gook. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 388 Registered: May-05 | Haring checks well the last time I had one was three years ago and every year before that, so I'll make an appointment, gee, thanks for bring that up but I can do it my self with headphones and using sine waves, from 1KHz 2KHz 4KHz and 8KHz has these will be tones the audiologist would be using at different levels. And this is one example of many tests conducted out. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/hearing.html Jimmy cricket, This is total cool I checked my hearing out and plotted it on the chart, so stick on the cans and do a test for free. |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 834 Registered: Feb-05 | Short answer to the original post is no. Some design and materials changes to be sure. But no significant improvement in sound overall. |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | John A, How much did you pay for your used ESL 63s? I found a guy local to me advertising a pair of 57s for really low money (like $600) but says they make noise, hum or buzz or something, when they get pushed loud. And one screen looks torn. I'm in Boston and figure there must be a shop around here that could refurbish these things. I love the look of them and if it's reasonable money they might be fun. Anyone know how much of a quagmire I'll be getting into if I buy these things and try to have them repaired, refurbished, etc. Also, anyone know a good Quad shop in Boston area? |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 862 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan wrote: I would say you can improve your system by purchasing a new speaker in the $1,500 price range. But, being a fan of old stuff, I would say you could also improve your system by purchasing a used pair of speakers that have come down to $1,500. If it was musical then, it's still musical now. That's also my philosophy. Paul wrote: If you have more money and less common sense, I believe Jan can help you with your speaker recommendation. The only catch is that unless you meet certain hearing criteria, you wont be able to discerne the quality of the message, and it will sound like gobblidy-gook. Not cool Paul. Nothing to contribute? Please abstain. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3246 Registered: Dec-03 | Hubert, I would investigate, but take my time. All parts are available, and they can be restored to good-as-new, but the question is the cost, time, and trouble. I bought a pair of ESL 63s with manufacturer's 1-yr warranty from a recognised dealer for £1,200 ($1,800..?). There are people who think the ESL 57 had better sound, but it had less bass, and was less protected, than the ESL 63. The ESL 57 can get damaged by arcing between the panels if given too much voltage by a brutal amp. The ESL 63 takes out the amp before it gets into overload itself. Most modern amps can cope with this, and the worst that can happen is usually a blown amp fuse. You can "Google". Most likely there is a place to go in the Boston area. Not for the faint-hearted! http://www.quadesl.org/ http://www.quadesl.com/ |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 14 Registered: Apr-05 | John A, I think you're right. It might be better to find a pair of Quads sold by a reputable dealer, with warranty, and already refurbished. Unless you're someone who has owned these before, knows what you're doing etc., which I definitely do not. Like buying old cars, right? Thanks again for your advice-- you and Jan Vigne are great source of info. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3255 Registered: Dec-03 | I think that's about how I see it, Hubert! Out there are some Quad gurus who would be able to tell what the problem was, and know what to do about it. But, if you are not one of them... |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 15 Registered: Apr-05 | No, I'm definitely no Quad expert. But I've read so much about them from you and others, always raving about them. So I'm intrigued. I did see a pair of new ones (988 I think) at a local hifi shop last year but didn't dare ask to hear them because I can't afford them, not even close. Used, though, I could swing a pair. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4236 Registered: May-04 | Hubert - Don't be afraid to ask to hear a piece of equipment you're interested in, even if you can't afford the piece. The shop is there to get you interested in audio and music. They do that best by letting you hear what they have in stock. Listening to more products only makes you a more knowledgeable buyer just as reading more makes you a more knowledgeable person. The salespeople are there because they like talking about what they sell; give them a chance to enjoy their job. If they blow you off, you'll know never to give them any money. |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 16 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan, I'd love to find the kind of audio salesperson you describe. So far in Boston I've had a rather different experience. The place with the Quads was one of those shops that sells Wilson Audio speakers that cost more than my car and where, when I asked if I could hear a couple of CD players in the $1,000 to $1,500 range, said they didn't have much in that price range and shoved me off into a room with a Musical Fidelity X-whatever, connected to about $30,000 worth of tube amps and speakers with cables as thick as my forearm ... and left me there with the door shut. When I finally meandered back out into the hallway I found all the salesguys clustered down back in the high-end home theater room, swarming around some rich dentist type from Wellesley who appeared to be in the mood to spend, oh, 100x more than I was. They were all standing there surrounded by this scary-looking monstrous equipment that looked like a set from Star Wars, nodding their heads solemnly -- who knew that sci-fi movie soundtrack special effects could sound so ... loud? Do you hear that rumble, how real that is? -- and the dentist and his teenage son were looking very pleased with themselves, I suppose as they imagined the flatbed truck arriving at their home, the cranes swinging into action lifting refrigerator-size speakers through special holes cut in the roof, the small army of technicians swarming through the house like a team of Navy SEALs. I noticed the Quads as I was running out and just didn't have the heart to ask. At the other end of the spectrum I've found a small grubby place that looks like the record shop in "High Fidelity," where they ask you what kind of speakers you are using (B&W in my case) and then make fun of you for being stupid enough to buy B&Ws and tell you that you obviously don't know what you're doing; and where when I called to tell them the brand new Audio Refinement amp I'd just bought home from their store had come out of the box not playing in one channel they at first didn't believe me and told me try hooking it up again; then sighed and told me, "All right, come in" and when they discovered I was actually telling the truth, insisted on resoldering a bad connection in the broken amp rather than giving me another new unit from the stack sitting right there. The grumpy Eastern European tech yelled at me when I said I'd rather have an unbroken one, and told me I'd insulted him, and I was really making him angry at this point, because he'd really had enough of my complaining -- I am not making this up -- and ultimately I just shrank away with the re-soldered amp (which, to be fair, works fine and sounds good.) Ah, yes. Stereo dealers. Good times. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 921 Registered: Feb-05 | Hubert I understand your frustration with shops and salespeople. You may have to go further from where you live or just keep checking differennt places locally. My experiences with shops regionally have been mixed. I stayed vigilant and shopped until I found audio retailers who are flexible and knowledgeable. I now have 3 dealers who carry a wide range of products and provide stellar service. They are all locally owned and operated. I buy from the owner only as he/she (Teri Inman in the case of Stereotypes in Portland) has the most to gain or lose from my business. Here in the Northwest we are blessed to have great audio retailers and I bet if you keep looking you have some there as well. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 137 Registered: Apr-05 | I have been building speakers since 1987, and I have seen the market change from the old to the new. Personally the stuff you see now-a-days is complete junk. I have personally compared Dynaudio, B&W, Rogers, Paradigm, Canton, Kef, Cellestion, and a few others just two days ago. The test were done in a professional sound room with non-resonant wall and ceiling panels, driven by state of the art equipment. After 6 hours of switching back and forth through a 5 channel switch box: I am completely disappointed that the marketing leaders of today are actually getting away with complete junk as far as design is concerned, and actual sound. The Dynaudio, B&W, and the Cellestions were the biggest losers. Dynaudio is lazy, weak, and slow in the bass department, while the tweeter emits an annoying upper midrange/low tweeter gain. It makes you leave the room. Cellestion is slow lazy and completely out of phase compared to the woofer, and the tweeter is way too loud. B&W sounds boxy, and the tweeter is harsh and too loud. The system sounds mechanical. The Canton is way too "In-Your-Face", and harsh. The sound makes you leave the room after more than 15 minutes. Two of the best out of the ones listed above, were: Rogers, and Paradigm. These systems are a fraction of the cost and were built in the late 80's / early 90's. They are not 100% perfect, as the Rogers could use a stiffer/tighter bass, but other than that, they beat the others hands down. When comparing speakers it really pays to use a switchbox and do live testing. Listening to each speaker separately on a separate day and or sound room is no way to make a statement. Put them to the test, side by side. You will be amazed at the results. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 139 Registered: Apr-05 | Other speakers compared were Aurasound, and Energy. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4244 Registered: May-04 | When comparing speakers I always thought it really paid to have listened to live music. I realize things aren't done that way any longer. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 140 Registered: Apr-05 | I ve never done that. Mainly for the fact that you can't reproduce exactly the same sound (live) over and over again, on demand. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4248 Registered: May-04 | "I ve never done that." That makes no sense to me! You've never listened to live music as a reference? "Mainly for the fact that you can't reproduce exactly the same sound (live) over and over again, on demand." That makes no sense to me either! Then what is the point of putting together a well assembled system? Your system changes that much day to day? Exactly what type of speakers have you been assembling since you were 15? Is there no reference other than whether the speaker sounds slow or the highs seem "too loud"? Excuse my saying it, but that's a bit of lunacy! You can't compare speakers to speakers and decide this model sounds more or less the way I like a speaker to sound and that's the only criteria. I realize I'm diggind myself into a hole here as most of my clients never heard live music and used their car stereo as a reference for what sounds good. I won't hijack this thread. Please go to: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/144453.html |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3264 Registered: Dec-03 | Great posts. Hubert, I've been there! Art is right: find a dealer who treats you like a sentient being, and hopes you might eventually become a satisfied customer, too. There must be some of those in your area. Ask around. I bought a new "entry-level" amp recently from a shop in a prime location, with carpets, and systems costing more than some people's houses. They could not have been more generous with their time; let me try one at home; phoned when a brand-new replacement came in etc. The Quad speakers were from their "pre-owned" sister company which I think sells their trade-ins amongst other things. I will send you the internet urls. It may not make sense to buy from UK, depending, but it might give you some idea of the sort of places to look for in your area. mixneffect has given a clear and straight answer to your original question! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3265 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW Just for interest I checked, and the "pre-owned" company currently lists a pair of 30-yr old Quad ESL 57s. Bronze. "Condition: perfect". £598. UK spec, and big shipping costs, I expect. But look in US HiFi mags for similar advertisments, including classifieds. |
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Bronze Member Username: SubiedriverPost Number: 17 Registered: Apr-05 | John, Would you send me those links to that pre-owned company anyway? I probably would not ship from UK but would like to see it anyway. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3267 Registered: Dec-03 | Hubert, I sent the two links as "Click Here to send a private message to Subiedriver". Here is the second one. This is not an ad! They have all sorts of stuff. There is always E-Bay, too. I have never used it, myself. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 576 Registered: Sep-04 | mixneffect You should never put two competing speakers side by side via a speaker switch box. Here's why: 1) if one of the speaker pairs is placed optimally, then the other pair is in a suboptimal position. So it's not fair on the 2nd set. 2) If the speakers are generating any kind of reasonable (i.e. room filling) volume, then the speaker set next to them start to vibrate in sympathy even without a signal going through them. This means that what you're hearing is actually a distorted version rather than the real thing. 3) The speaker switch may suffer from crosstalk (not unheard of) so you may have a small signal going into the speakers you're not meant to be hearing, again affecting the sound of the speakers you are meant to be hearing. These are the reasons why any good dealer in the UK will have a "single speaker demo room" and awhy a single speaker demo room is considered the correct way to demo equipment correctly. It's true that time is spent moving the speakers in and out of the room, but this is at the dealer's expense in terms of sales time, not at the expense of the customer. Regards, Frank. |
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