Archive through May 29, 2005
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New member Username: Taz_devilPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-05 | John - many, many thanks. I will check out the Oz guy's as they are just across the pond there, so to speak. Will also check out the others. Thanks again for the leads. If anyone else has any suggestions, I would be very happy to hear from them. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3014 Registered: Dec-03 | You are welcome, Taz. My Rantz (see Apr 15 above) knows the Oz HiFi scene pretty well, and I predict he will respond to my pommey-rot.... I just went to the linked "Melody" site and it crashed my browser. I look forward to further replies to your post. Does anyone here have anything on "Amplifon" WT40? Getting a demo of a valve amp is difficult, even given the best will on all sides. Comparing valve amps must be impossible: you have to live with them for a while. It is one of these areas where buying on specs and reputation, hopefully with a trial period, is about the best we can hope for. So coming to this thread was a good idea. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 243 Registered: Feb-05 | Taz, Entry level tube setup. The PrimaLuna ProLogue One integrated amp is getting raves at only $1095. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1063 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz, I don't know if Jolida is available in your area, but I use a JD102B which retails in the United States for under $600. I recommend it highly. It's an EL84 based ultralinear 20WPC. If you have a chance to give one a listen, please do so. Great reviews also. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2397 Registered: Dec-03 | I would say three of the more respected lower priced tube companies are. Antique sound labs. Jolida. Rogue audio. Then you have companies that are starting to get some decent press. Ming Da. PrimaLuna. Melos. Dared. Mapletree Audio. I would certainly look into used as the market is flooded with quality gear. Audiogon.com should give you a good idea of the prices right now. As far as speakers go, I don't know what is in your area and to me speakers are far to subjective per listener for me to suggest what to get. I would poke around see what you find then ask questions on the ones you find that tickle your fancy, so to speak. The only thing I would say is to keep in mind what amount of power your going to run comparred to the speakers your going to get. What I meen is don't get some power hungary speakers then a 10 watt amp. If you look towards speakers that are more effecient then the price of your amplification can be much lower also as generally high powered tube products are pretty pricey but low powered guy's can be great values. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1737 Registered: Aug-04 | Tas, I don't know much about tube/valve gear here. Here is a link to a dealer in northern NSW near the QLD border: http://www.toma.com.au/ |
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New member Username: Taz_devilPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-05 | John, Arthur, Rick, Kegger, My R - Many thanks for the gems. Back to the research by the looks of it. One of the big problems is accessing some of the 'name' gear in this neck of the woods. Kegger, I can't seem to find stockists or distributors (here in Australia) for any of the manufacturers you mentioned. I may have to look at buying in the States and shipping to Oz, although I guess the 220/240 volt issue will dog me then. Your point about efficiencies is noted - I am looking at Magnepan MMG's at present and guess if I stick with tube gear I'm going to need at least 50w to drive them. I look forward to getting more insider info as I trot down the tube path. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1742 Registered: Aug-04 | Taz You'll see some nice tube gear on Ebay under electronics/amplifiers http://www.ebay.com.au Good hunting. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2398 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz I don't know of the availability of the brands I listed in your neck of the woods. As mr. Rantz has said maybe try Ebay or Audiogon as I do see some things listed in australia on those. I just listed those brands as being the quote bang for the buck companies! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 573 Registered: Feb-04 | Taz, I can highly recommend the PrimaLuna Prologue as an entry-level tube amp. You get the benefits of a tube amp without some of the hassles that put people off to tube gear, e.g., automatic biasing, soft-start circuitry to extend tube life. If you go to www.upscaleaudio.com there is a link for international sales. It's great that you're updating your equipment all at once. Matching the amp with speakers will be critical to getting good sound. It would be worth calling Upscale Audio if you do decide to get the PrimaLuna. They are very knowledgeable and I'm sure they can help you select speakers that match the amp. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 574 Registered: Feb-04 | One more brand to consider is Cayin. Their integrated amp is very similar to the Primaluna. I think they are built in the same factory in China. "I am looking at Magnepan MMG's at present and guess if I stick with tube gear I'm going to need at least 50w to drive them." Not necessarily. I listened the MMGs driven by a Jolida 302 amp, which is rated at 40w, and was surprised at how good it sounded. I too thought that the MMGs needed a more powerful amp to drive them, but have learned otherwise. |
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New member Username: Taz_devilPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-05 | G'day again, Can I take a second nibble at the cherry here... Today I listened to a PrimaLuna ProLogue One (thanks Kegger/Arthur) and think it sounds superb (I also like the manufacture of the unit, the finish is great). So, nice. Part one solved. Problem is I am also hooked on the Magnepan MMG's (only from reviews and raves am I addicted, this may be foolish but where I am it's impossible to find this equip to audition). I have looked everywhere on boards, mag reviews etc and don't seem to be able to find any definitive advice as to whether the PrimaLuna (or tube amp of similar power) will drive the MMG's (excepting Two's comment above, thanks Two). Some say no worries, others say +250w and you'll be getting close. I am getting a friend to purchase the MMG's from the factory and ship them Down Under so the last thing I want is to find they sound great if you wear them as headphones when driven by the Prima. I know what I want the answer to be but I need experienced advice on this one. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3538 Registered: May-04 | Read from this page to see an Old Dog who used tubes with MMG's: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/132438.html |
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New member Username: Taz_devilPost Number: 5 Registered: Apr-05 | Thankyou. Most helpful. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2403 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz I would think something in the range of 40-50 watts a channel would power the mmg's with no problem. It's when you move upto the larger maggies you need to consider larger amps as they seem to be a lot tougher to drive. |
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New member Username: Taz_devilPost Number: 6 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks Kegger - The Prima has 35w and there is another Australian brand that Simply Mac purchased a re-badged version of (mentioned in the boards a coupla months back - boy have I been doing some reading). Called a Onix over on the right side of the pond, this way they're called Melody (shocking name I gotta say, goes with the truly awful music on their site). That pumps out 38w then they have a beefy 40w model. Trying to get hold of these people (the manufacturers) is the hardest thing, it's like being admitted to some arcane society. I emailed three a number of times over the last two weeks and got absoluitely no response, what is it with customer service ??? When I finally gave up and called they got the greatest shock that I was phoning from Tasmania, like I should have been using drums or smoke or something. The people at Melody don't even have a phone number, just a post office box (and bad music). I don't understand that approach. If anyone reading this knows where I can get in touch with a Melody (agent) just write here and I'll eat my laptop after I've memorised the message. Promise. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3542 Registered: May-04 | In my experience, the amount of power the amp can produce as stated on a piece of paper has nothing to do with how the amp will drive various speakers. Some amplifiers will have better control of the speaker (specifically the low frequency driver) and some will not. Though I doubt you would want to put an 8 watt, triode based tube amp on the MMG's, the amount of power over about 25 watts should be of nominal concern. Finding an amp that will drive the loudspeaker and not the other way around should be your goal. Amplifier wattage will, to some extent, determine the volume your system can achieve. The problem with that sentence is buying wattage to gain volume is not practical. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 576 Registered: Feb-04 | Taz, Jan has much knowledge. The Primaluna should have no trouble driving the MMGs. I believe SM was quite satisfied with the Onix and MMG combo. I wouldn't worry about the wattage ratings of either of these amps when mating with the MMGs. If you have trouble reaching Melody in Aus, you could try emailing the North American distributor. The same for Primaluna (although I've had better luck calling them, but that could be expensive for you). |
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Unregistered guest | If I have a 5.1 channel receiver that puts out 100w of power per speaker, what would happen if i hook up 80w speakers to it?? how about 120w speakers? will any of that damage any compnents? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3545 Registered: May-04 | I will never dicourage anyone from buying new product; especially with the amount of good products available today at somewhat sensible prices. I would, however, suggest that if the products you are considering appear to be less than concerned about customer service before the sale, you might want to be a bit concerned about customer service after the sale. Please do not take this as a warning against any company or compnaies. I speak only from many years of experience in the audio market. Dozens upon dozens of high quality products have made it to the market in high end audio, only to sink under their own weight. Excellent engineers and designers are not guaranteed to be good business people. Even hiring "good business people" often can result in devastating after shocks. Look on the pages of eBay or Audiogon to find the numbers of products that were succesfully marketed as the final product the company produced. The expansion needed when a product hits the ground running while trying to catch up with glowing reviews has been a difficult process for all too many cpmpanies. Today the world wide distribution of products makes the task all the more difficult. Of course, some of these companies can translate that momentum into a lasting reputation and the "early adpoters" are merely caught in the growing process of such a company. I will say part of my personal decision on what product I should invest in has more often than not been decided by a call to the factory or representative. Unanswered calls now can spell disaster in the future. Not always; but sometimes. A company such as Quad, McIntosh, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, etc., has stayed around because of their continued committment to product and to customer service. I believe all of the companies I mentioned can support any product they ever produced to some degree. That alone is a portion of why the price for their products is reasonably higher than many others and why the resale stays higher than many others. It becomes a two edged sword when the manufacturer is chasing new sales and hoping to survive long enough to provide service for a long discoutinued product. (Of course, there are companies such as Quad, McIntosh and Sugden that keep the same basic model in their line for decades.) New sales will allow the fledgling company the ability to become an old company. Lost sales due to poor customer service will allow the young company's products to be sold on eBay at discount prices. I cannot tell you what path to follow in searching for the ideal component at the price you wish to pay. I would only suggest that if you find a company dificult to deal with, there are many companies that have decades of products to choose from that have proven their committment to customer service. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3546 Registered: May-04 | "Jan has much knowledge." I do indeed. I keep it in boxes in the attic and closets. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1078 Registered: Dec-03 | You sir, are far too modest! Sincerely |
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New member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 7 Registered: Apr-05 | I am humbled by the quality of advice. Thankyou. I am now more knowledgeable about valve gear, by a factor of four, than I was two weeks ago. - Point taken Jan - Thanks Two Now to totally blow any credibility I may have and cement my newbieness... *slightly off topic* (Gulp - I can just feel this is a stupid question but I've got to ask) If I get a friend to send MMG's from the States the speaker cable connections will not have to be modified will they? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1772 Registered: Aug-04 | Taz - someone said the only stupid question is the one not asked. Yours is the exception - no, no, no, just kidding, really LOL! No modifications would be needed. |
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New member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 8 Registered: Apr-05 | Phew. Thanks mate. |
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tintzone Unregistered guest | q: wheres the best place to go thru the fire wall in a 2000 chvrolet malibu ive got one in tha shop and its packed pretty tight. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3553 Registered: May-04 | In your driveway. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1082 Registered: Dec-03 | ....YEP...... |
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New member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 9 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan, Kegger, 2c, Arthur, John A, My Rantz, et al Given that you are the holders of the tube grail (excusing My Rantz, who I understand has not walked towards the light as yet) could you recommend some sub US$1500 CD players that will work nicely with the Prima Luna Prologue one and a set of MMG's? I tried the CD forum but it's a mess over there... Thanks in advance |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2407 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz: ALL, myself mr rantz and SM run the denon universal players and all have been extremly happy with them. They play all the formats and work wonderful with tube gear. I have the 2200 and I believe so does SM, mr rantz runs the 2900 I believe and a friend of mine runs the 5900 and loves his player. Personally I think the 2200 is the best bang for the buck out there. I'm sure there are better players maybe even some tube players! "even though I haven't seen any sacd/dvd-a/cd tube units" All the denons I mentioned play all the formats and I would not buy a player that did not support all the formats and do them well like the denons do! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1780 Registered: Aug-04 | Taz If you are after a universal DVD player and one that has good cd playback, the Denon DVD-3910 is highly regarded by most reviewers. It also has the latest digital connections and plays all formats including both hi-res. I have the DVD-2900 (connected to a Marantz SR-7300) and I have played it to death for almost a year without one hiccup. The playback for cd, sacd and dvd-a is wonderful. You would be very lucky to get either the 2200, 2900, 5900, now as they are superceded. As for other high end CD players - Lexicon, Arcam, Rega, Krell, Musical Fidelity. Some of these brands and many others have stand alone cd players, some support SACD and so on. Like speakers it is very difficult to recommend something that only your ears can decide. Some review links: http://www.homecinemachoice.com http://www.hifichoice.co.uk Check the editorial review link at the top of this page. Good Luck |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1784 Registered: Aug-04 | Taz and other tube lovers [grin] You may want to look at this integrated tube amp: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14973&item%3D5768113028 |
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New member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 10 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks MR R. I'd spotted this a day or so back but haven't been able to find any reviews or additional info on the thing. I guess I would have to get someone who is familiar with components to check whether its innards are up to scratch. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1785 Registered: Aug-04 | Taz - Hopefully Jan or Kegger will take a look when the sleepyheads rise in a few hours. :-) Guys - please check the link for our friend in the land downunder the land downunder LOL! The price seems too good to be true - but that may change to a more realistic value as the auction draws to a close. Either that or it's a heap of doo doo! |
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Bronze Member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 11 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks MR R. Can you tell me, with those Denon models being superceded can I assume that the replacement models will be as great? Say the 2910 or 3910? (yes Mr R, I am so close to the Antarctic I can smell it from here, down under Down Under indeed) |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1787 Registered: Aug-04 | I believe the 3910 is just as good if not a tad better than the 2900 which all the reviewers raved about. It also has variable (from 40 hz to 120 hz in 20hz increments) crossovers where the 2900 has only a 80hz lfe crossover. It is also more future proof for hi-res digital connections and hdtv etc. It has an even better video dac than the renown 2900. On Ebay there is dealer selling them for around $1590 - retail is $1990 here. Personally, based on my experience with cd's and the hi-res formats (and picture quality) I think it's a no brainer for the money. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1085 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi Taz, I see you have been given some solid advice regarding universal players. However, I am not a fan of them. I don't know if your ultimate system is going to be stereo or multichannel. If stereo is what you seek, I prefer a dedicated CD player over the universals. Without having to compromise in order to do everything well, the manufacturer can put the cost to better DACS, optics, and build quality. Overall I think a dedicated player will give superior sonic results. Please remember that the source is probably the most important link in the chain. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1788 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick, I always value your opinion and what you say may be so, but for overall performance, including CD, the mid range Denons and higher are hard to beat unless big money is spent. "Better DAC's, optics, and build quality" Just what the reveiwers say about the Denons. But, Taz, you should do your homework and decide what type of source you are looking for. But, even 2 channel hi-res eats redbook cd's - no matter what amplication. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1086 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, In my experience, I have never seen, or should I say heard, a $1000 universal player play CD's better than a $1000 dedicated CD player, from the same manufacturer. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2408 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick I have to disagree also! Even for stereo I would not buy anything but a universal player. My denon plays everything really really well and I use it for stereo on the sacd and dvd-audio disks all the time. I am surprised at the quality it plays all formats. And I am glad I don't have to buy 3 seperate players which is what I would do to play the high rez material if I had to, it's that good! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1087 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry..........Just my opinion, for what it's worth. I'm not knocking any format or brand, but at any price point, you can't tell me I can't find a dedicated CD player that will outperform a universal player on CD's. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 278 Registered: Feb-05 | I agree with Rick. I own a good Marantz universal player, but I wouldn't if I didn't have a dedicated CD player already. My NAD C542 is far better sounding with CD's than my Marantz ubiversal. I have heard the Denon's, last week in fact while I was ordering my Studio 40's, and they do not IMO sound as good as either the NAD or Rotel dedicated CD players. Taz, I know that you are committed to buying the MMG's but I have to say that I would caution against it. I went the Maggie route and it wrecked my audio life for 1 1/2 years. Don't let anyone tell you that they are not power hungry, they are. They are like sails on a sail boat, you can get the boat going with very little air but you will not see the full potential of the boat without fiiling the sails with lots of air. I started by anwering an ad for and old pair of SMGa's. Bought them for $125 and enjoyed them in my second system in the bedroom. I didn't have enough power however as I only had an 80 watt per channel Marantz receiver so I replaced that with a Rotel 100 watt receiver with considerably more current. Not long and that was not enough I still wasn't getting out of them what I could. I put them in my main system replacing my Studio 40 v2's. At long last I had enough power but the speaker rolled off at around 16khz so I called Magnepan and inquired about the MMG's. They said that they were essentially the SMGa with full frequency range. I bought them and guess what, they didn't have near the substantial feel and sound that the SMGa had, so I sent them back and bought the MG12's and on and on. You get my drift. Maggies's have that spooky "there in the roomness" that you can only get with a planar or electrostatic design, but until you get up to the 3.6's you sacrifice detail and versatility. Maggie's are very seductive by I will never be swayed by them again. You can buy dynamic designs that do most of what the Maggie does well with all that dynamic speakers have over the Maggie's. My current speaker's (Paradigm Monitor 5's until my new Studio 40 v3's come in next week) don't sound as good as my MG12's did but I'm happier with them, I no longer have to worry if this music or that will sound good with them as they show the flexibility to sound good with any kind of music. There are dozens of brands of quality dynamic loudspeaker brands to chose from. If you have any questions about the Maggie's fell free to email and perhaps we can talk about it as it is difficult to describe this way. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2409 Registered: Dec-03 | The reason why I argue the point is I know someone who has the nad c542 and a denon 2200 and has comparred there performance and prefers the denon on redbook! He is now selling his C542 player as it's no longer needed! That Is why I say I'm pretty darn impressed with the performance of the denons on redbook cd and the other formats that is why I back the player so much! They are truly in a league of there own! I don't know how they do it, but they do. |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 279 Registered: Feb-05 | My Rantz. You have a point. On paper the Denon's have the competition spanked. I have a Marantz DV6400 which I had to sent back to Illinois to have a frimware upgrade, and when it came back to my audio store (Bradford's in Eugene, Oregon) I compared it directly with the Denon DVD2910 using both a Marantz and a Denon receiver. First I have to say that the build quality of Denon appears to be far superior on the surface (weighs more than twice as much). For video the Marantz appeared superior in everyway. The picture quality wasn't even close. Sound on video was a bit different. It really depends on your preferance. The Denon was a bit more detailed where the Marantz was warmer and may cause less listener fatigue. The owner of Bradford's preferred the Marantz. For music it really was a toss up. I liked the sound of the Marantz for upper register information where the Denon may have edged the Marantz with slightly more defined bass. Point being that specs sometimes don't tell the whole story. Both players are competent and it really is a toss up which one you chose. The Denon has HDMI and DVI which may be a clincher for you, not for me. I know that HD-DVD and Blu ray are coming so I will wait for that to settle down before I worry about upconverting. Still for CD's a dedicated CD palyer is the way to go unless ofcourse you can afford a Linn Unidisk (which sounds fantastic). |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2410 Registered: Dec-03 | Just one last thing on the denon! I was at that audiofest a couple weeks ago and the gentelmen that setup stuff in the room with me brought his expensive upsampler and external dac which he uses on his pioneer elete drive. I allready had my denon setup so we put the upsampler and dac on my denon plus put the analog from the denon into the preamp and did an ab test between the upsampler/dac combo and the denon, the owner of the dac/upsampler could not believe it we heard no noticable improvement in sound on redbook cd's. I personally don't care what other people use and what to put on there system but I'm very impressed with what the denons can do as an all in one player. Ther is no compromise, none at all! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 578 Registered: Feb-04 | I agree with Kegger that the Denon 2200 is a good all around silver disc player (I own one myself), but I also agree with Rick and Arthur that a dedicated CD player in the same price range will tend to sound better with CD. In fact the sound of CDs on my Cal Audio Labs CDP is comparable to the sound of SACDs on the Denon and is noticeably better on CD playback. If Taz is mainly interested in playing CDs, then a dedicated CDP should provide better sound for the money. For the amount he's budgeted, he could get an excellent player. The Musical Fidelity X-Ray, the Jolida JD-100 (a really nice tube player), and Arcam (can't remember the model) are a few CDPs I've auditioned recently that sound fabulous. Of course, it's best to audition for yourself to find out which one appeals most to your taste. If versatility is important to you, i.e., the ability to play SACD, DVD-A, DVD-V, etc., the Denons are an easy recommendation. The picture quality on DVDs is among the best I've seen regardless of price. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2411 Registered: Dec-03 | Ok sorry done with my rant! I apologize! Just when people say the denons are a comprimise they are incorrect as far as I'm concerned. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2412 Registered: Dec-03 | Don't get me wromg as I stated to start with you can better the denon but you've got to spend more to do so. And if your willing to spend more then maybe look into the higher end denon player maybe a used 5900 or discounted one as that gets rave reviews for it's cd playback as well. plus you still get the high rez formats to boot! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 579 Registered: Feb-04 | Here's a question to get this thread back on topic: Are tube dampers effective? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1088 Registered: Dec-03 | Good question 2C, I have no experience with them. What do you think Kegger? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2413 Registered: Dec-03 | I've never used them as I have not seen a problem with vibration in my setup. I know a lot of people swear by them and if your stuff is not isolated from vibrations then my guess would be they are a good thing! I recently was testing out the turntable on my work bench and had my first case of microphonic tubes that I just switched out for some good telefunkens And cushioned the preamp better from the table. I guess in that case I could of used some dampers to try. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3020 Registered: Dec-03 | Nice thread. Taz, the speaker-amp connection is the same the world over, as MR says. It is the input voltage and line frequency that you should check out. Most likely it is selectable. You are on 220/240v 50Hz I think and the US standard is 110v 60 Hz. If you are concerned with the power required for Magnepan speakers you might consider also the Primaluna Prologue 2. ...And report back, please - I, for one, am interested. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1789 Registered: Aug-04 | Kegger, Jan, Rick, anyone Please look at this Aussie E-bay link for a tube amp I added a few posts back so you can evaluate and maybe offer some thoughts for Taz. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14973&item%3D5768113 028 Rick, I know some very good dedicated cd players may be "a little" better than some of the good universal players. I listened to a Rega Mira cd player and thought my 2900 was a tad better. My brother has a high end Marantz cd player and after hearing my 2900 is now considering the same or the 3910. He couldn't believe it's performance. When he visited, he even bought with him three of his reference cd's. Proir to actually hearing it, he was poo-hooing my thoughts about the universal Denons. As Kegger stated, unless a dedicated cd player is particularly wanted, the good universals are the way to go imho. About tube dampers I wouldn't know, but anything that helps prevent vibration or draws it away will be a benfit any audio component - like Rick's cones. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2414 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry I meant to coment on that, I looked it up and it "says" all the right things, has all normal/good choice of tubes. Without knowing the product plus seeing a schematic and the underside wiring about all I can say is it looks nice. Don't know what a good price is in austrailian, sorry! But If it's inexpensive I'd try it. The specs look good. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1790 Registered: Aug-04 | Thanks Kegger, I didn't realise the auction closing time was running out - hopefully Taz will have a look, but the price seems to have doubled overnight - as what usually happens. |
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Bronze Member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 12 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks Kegger. I'm watching it M.R. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2425 Registered: Dec-03 | No new tube gabbage? Rick any more trying of the tubes? Jan any new enthusiastic enjoyment on your front? Ghia anything running around in your mind these days? Taz did we acquire anything yet? 2C anything new with you? Arthur Kyle anything totaly tubular to add? Asimo you got anything going on in tubeland? John anything brewing with you? ------------------- Anyone I missed I'm sorry bad memory here! Anyone else who may wat to test the waters, jump in the temp is luke warm at the moment! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1113 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Not much to add on my front. I have been real busy between work and home. I hope to have the house listed by June. I have tried all the tubes, and the RCA's are clearly the best of the lot. The tube that makes the most difference in shaping the overall sound is the driver tube. Other than that, not much else to add. I have been listening to music in what spare time I have. Cheers! |
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Bronze Member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | Kegger - I gotta say thanks to everyone here for such great advice (specially Mr K who set me straight on the whole Maggie thing. His sentiments were something along the lines of; "you want a speaker you can have a conversation with, not just one reckless night") I'm busy listing my entire life on Ebay so I can buy the following; B&W 703 PrimaLuna Prologue one and either a Denon 3910 or Muscal Fidelity X-Ray V3 A question Kegger. Once I get my grubby mits on the PrimaLuna should I change the Chinese tubes for something else and if so what should I be looking for? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3062 Registered: Dec-03 | Well done, Kegger. I was wondering what was new, too. I've been reading magazine articles on amps and players, but no action. I wrote about this news on Old Dogs... Rick, I've been listening to music, too. Check out the "CD Review" review I linked on discoveries. Taz, Great, great stuff. I have been reading about Musical Fidelity their X-150 amp turned my head from tubes/valves, briefly. That is one of the makes where the reviewers say, approvingly "sounds like tubes". I am not sure about the speaker analogy. My suggestion, based purely on long-term satisfaction and brand loyalty, is that KEF is at least B&W's equal in the long-term relationship department. Plus regular nights of passion, of course. If you have a dealer nearby do not overlook KEF. They spend less on advertising and buying cameos on movies than B&W. Still, whatever, it sounds like you need not worry about waking up in the morning with Bose. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2426 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz in my experience the ouput tubes "the large tubes in the amp" make little difference for the most part in many tube amps. So pretty much anything goes there. It's all the small tubes in the amp that really make it shine and I would change all of them to NOS "new old stock" or almost new/used old stock, vintage tubes. And I believe "at least in the US" that RCA has the most bang for the buck. You certainly could not hurt things by putting in rca all the way around and get a listen to the unit,let it break in and see what it sounds like. After you've had the unit for a while and get to understand what your system sounds like then if you feel there is ana area you'd like to try an improve you could get some other tubes to put you in that direction. Not all tubes sound the same in all amps but there are some genertalizations that seem to hold true in certain tubes. Like a mullard is generally not bright and maybe a little fat in the bass with a great sounding midrange or a telefunken is well rounded with a clear and extended high end. wher the rca's are generally somewhere in between those two but even those general rules aren't allways true. But a good set of old stock rca's should be a good starting/and maybe ending point. But get a good feel for the sound of your stuff and let it break in before you go hog wild on the tube rolling scene, it can lead to madness. -------------------------------------------------------------- Rick glad you got to hear the other tubes and that at least some did the job for you! Cheers and hope the move plus music is good for you sir. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2427 Registered: Dec-03 | John great to hear from you also as Iv'e been listening to a "BUNCH" of new/old music to. I wrote about some of my new music experience on old dogs as well. Between setting up my table and tweeking then buying a bunch of vinyl and then finally listening to a bunch of new/old vinyl I've been pretty busy also. Rock on dudes! And dudettes! |
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Bronze Member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 14 Registered: Apr-05 | John/Kegger - can you give me directions to "CD Review" review I linked on discoveries. and a "BUNCH" of new/old music...I wrote about some of my new music experience on old dogs as well." |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2428 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz when I get some time I will and let you know. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3065 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Kegger. You have overtaken me in the LP department! This thread is still ticking over, and I am not sure you have seen it: Also, it is sticking to the point, mostly, and is not too long. Concerning turntables and LPs. Simple things your father knew, probably. Taz, Some of is here have been discussing things for some time. You are very welcome to join. Discoveries started by Ghia Cabriolet, now going under the name "SimplyMcIntosh". I linked CD review on April 24 and also in Saturday last. This one, "Old Dogs" is crazy, has become a sort of "blog". Teaching an old dog new tricks... The issue is stereo vs surround sound (see first, archived post) and we have still not agreed, despite having argued about it, sometimes stongly, as well about as almost everything else. I have changed my position a little since my early posts there. Jan Vigne looks to be in a strong position.... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2429 Registered: Dec-03 | John yes I've read the TT thread you mentioned, very informative. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 593 Registered: Feb-04 | Taz, The stock tubes on the PrimaLuna are pretty good. I think you'll be happy with them after the break-in period. It takes about 60-100 hours for the amp to open up, although it'll sound fairly good right out of the box. I'm happy with the stock tubes on my PL2, but if the urge to upgrade strikes me later, I'll try some NOS tubes, as Kegger recommended. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2442 Registered: Dec-03 | Taz here is a link to the thread I mentioned and if you dare to take the time to read tthhrroouugggghhhhh! it you will find a wealth of, well everything it's our home page here to a sort where pretty much anything goes but some have said to try and keep the religion and politics to a minimum as they can get pretty strong. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/21154.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Taz_devilTasmania Australia Post Number: 15 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks Kegger. I will start my reading... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2457 Registered: Dec-03 | Well I've had some bad news and some good fortune lately, I'll leave the bad out! Just recently a gentleman around here's collection of antique audio just went on auction and I was one of the lucky recipients who attended this shindig. Allright I picked up an HK TA224 reciever with 7408? output tubes. "all tubes included" A stromberg carlson ASR-433 stereo 24 integrated amp with EL84 output tubes. "no tubes" Both units in about average shape, here's the rest. Seco FB-4 inductance checker "which if it works I could really use" Living sound system (mono amp) 21-7020, Don't know more then that at the moment. Heathkit AS-11 tuner. Heathkit AA13 amp. sencore oscilloscope ps-1484. Eico oscilloscope 460 No name mono amp unknown tubes"not marked on chassis and there missing" 3 misc turntables and some throw in stuff. Picked it all up for $253 which I can't really afford right now but had to do it! Then spent another $15 to get all the tubes for the stromberg. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Brought both the HK and the stromberg up on the variac and I have to find out why only one channel on the HK works. The stromberg sounds fantastic, blows away the mono block EL84's I have and works great. It has a very interesting combo of tubes it uses. A pair of 12ax7's for the phono "1 in each channel" and a quad of EL84's "2 in each channel" now's where it gets different! It has a 6av6 and 6u8 per channel. Very interesting layout of controls on the stromberg also, hope it cleans up nice. Did I mention I'm listening to it right now and it's wonderful. I think I like it better then my highly modded ST70! DARNIT! Well now that the stromberg is up and running I'll get back to the HK unit and see what's up with that one. I picked up the oscilloscope's for 3 reasons. I could use one, they were 2 bucks a piece and earlier I mentioned in this thread when Jan and I were talking about preamps that the 6DJ8 tubes were used in a lot of oscilloscope's. WO did I make out, the sencore seems to work and wwhhaallaahh the eico had 2 that test as new mullard 6DJ8's which I have been looking for. The rest of the pieces yielded some more great mullard and telefunken 12ax7's plus other various old stock test as new tubes of good brands and models. Pretty cool! I'm going to have to sell some stuff pretty soon as I have to much and may need some money! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- Jan how are the Mac's doin after your work on them and now playing? Doin allright I hope! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3128 Registered: Dec-03 | Congratulations, Kegger! You will have fun with all that, and learn some things, I am sure. Tell us what you find. A modern personal computer will work well as a 'scope, with an ADC and the right software, as you surely know. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1129 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Wow! You made out like a bandit. The Stromberg alone is worth the investment, not to mention the NOS tubes. Enjoy the gear and the sweet sound of those EL84's. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1864 Registered: Aug-04 | Kegger, Soon you'll need to build an extension for all this gear you are hoarding. Good Eric - that music of yours would want to sound darn good friend LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2458 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks guys for the applause to my findings.. ------------------------------------------------------------------ All right it was suggested to talk about this program, anyone have anything to add chime in. here is the download! http://www.duncanamps.com/tdslpe/download.html This is a tube data base progrom "no Im not affiliated with it". Usually you click search then "find by designator" and punch in the tube your wondering about like say 12au7 it says pinout is 9A. Then if you click on the "substitutes tab" and it shows you substitutes. Click on the "ratings tab" and it gives you some info about the tube. the "short data tab" gives you more. then the "data sheets links" goes to web pages breakin the tube down more. But what if you don't have any 12au7's or any substitutes it shows but maybe you have quite a few tubes and want to see if any will work. You can try some other peramiters to try and find a sub. open another instance of the program click on serarch then "parametric search" click on pinout on the right hand side and choose 9A, click on mu choose the little squigly thing on the match colum means less or more then choose 20 for your value then on the right put your tolerence at 20% then click find. You will now see a list of tubes within 20% of the peramters you set with the same pinout. You'll notice a tube that many people talk about the 12bh7 it has a little lower gain "not much" then a 12au7 but for me was a perfect replacement in my ASL 300B amps front end, sounds absolutely wonderful. Now this was just an example of a way you can use the program. There are many ways if you get creative with the peramters you set. I don't know everything about the program or for that matter what major important factors in a good tube sub are but the program works great for me! The program basically gives you all the chericteristics of a given tube. I use it all the time when I don't have the exact tube. I try to stay close to all of the catagories of a given tubes chericteristics. Not all tubes on the search brought up will work, you need to use your own judgement if the tube you want to try is close enough to the original. I make no claims as to what tubes will work in your equipment. But I just recently picked up an amp that used 6U8 tubes and 6AV6's. By using the peramters I described above I found that I could use the 6AT6's I had for the 6AV6's and that the 6GH8's I had might work for the 6U8 and they did so I could fire up the amp. The reason I say bring up a second instance of the program is so you can see the peramiters you may want to enter by looking at the ratings and short data. Say your building something and you know what you want the tube to do but you don't know what tube it might be if there is one. Just enter the paramiters you want and see if theres a tube for you. The program may not do everything for you that you need but most all tubes are in the database and you'd be surpised how helpful it can be. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3776 Registered: May-04 | Guys, give this fellow a bit of advice: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/138178.html |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3785 Registered: May-04 | Keger - I was poking around Audiogon last night trying to help the guy on the other thread. I can't believe what they are getting for ST-70's! Sheesh! They appreciated more over the last year than home values. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2462 Registered: Dec-03 | I know! Like right after I got um from you they shot through the roof! I'm still using the 2 of them pretty regularly. I have a third that is a factory built unit all original that I'm just holding onto. I tell you what, not sure about build quality or longevity but the stromberg I'm working on/listening to sounds so sweet! To me better then an st70 even my modded one! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2463 Registered: Dec-03 | It lives! Finally got the hk unit up and running, still gotta work on the tuner section as I only get one channel but the rest is pretty darn nice!   |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2464 Registered: Dec-03 | Here's a pic of the stromberg! This unit and the HK need a good cleaning but I think they'll clean up and look pretty nice. They both work now at least producing lovely stereo music!  |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1140 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger-Jan, What can you tell me about a Klipsch Epic CF3 speaker? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3802 Registered: May-04 | Nothing from me. All the Klipsch products after the Heresy (which was designed in the 1950's) have been introduced since I stopped selling Klipsch. What I've heard from the newer Klipsch speakers is very different from the old stuff Paul designed. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 611 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm thinking of rolling some tubes on my Primaluna integrated amp and had a couple of questions: Any thoughts on the Sylvania 12ax7 tube? How does it compare to the RCA tube? Is there a difference between short-plate vs. long-plate tubes? Thanks, as always. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2467 Registered: Dec-03 | I have heard and seen the CF3 once and not for a long time! I did think they sounded pretty good and didn't take much to drive them, very fast, punchy with a suprisingly good amount of bass! If your thinking of mating them with low powered tube gear they should work great. Best music for them would be rock! Should probably be pretty good on jazz and acoustical. If the price is right and you can like the sound of a horn "not everyone does" I think you should try em. Very emmediate speaker, very dynamic no laid back here. If what I described here is something your interested in then you may be very happy. If what I described does not apeal to you then leave em alone. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2468 Registered: Dec-03 | 2C sylvania made a nice tube. Your putting me on the spot hear because tubes sound different in different gear and to different people. But if I was cornered and had to descibe what I've heard from sylvania 12ax7's and rca. "plus others" Sylvania even accross the eq with maybe a ever so slight rise to the top end and don't tend to give as much of the "tube sound" Rca even accross the board with maybe slight emphasys on midrange and some "tube sound" Telefunken good bass, extended highs and nuetrel mid with good "tube sound" Mullard Great bass, very warm mid and slightly tailord back highs, great "tube sound" That would be about as much of a general statement as I could do. And others very well may differ and have their own oppinions but that is a basic description of what I've heard with my gear. Don't go spending a bunch on tubes from the tube shops, be thrifty and see what you get on ebay! you'd be surprised! I got some great deals! Get a tester! Don't really have anything to say regarding the size or the shape of the plate. Have not found anything consistent sound wise on them to make an immpression. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3810 Registered: May-04 | 2c - My days of NOS tubes are over so I don't think I can tell you anything useful. Individual tubes will react to a given circuit and though you can generalize about a tube's performance, that generalization may not hold for all circuits. For the type of information you are seeking I would recommend a tube forum. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=5 http://www.ultrajosh.com/tubeamp/ http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/index.htm I will tell you the best sounding 12AX7's I've put in my Mac amps have been the Golden Dragon 12AX7 gold pin. Before that I'd stayed mostly with Telefunkens and Seimens after trying a few other brands. My amps came with the original McIntosh tubes which were probably all RCA small triodes and Sylvania outputs. They were in good shape when I first bought the amps, but the Telefunkens were smoother and more quiet to my ears. The Seimens were more open and inviting. http://www.tubesdirect.com/gd_detail.asp?ProductID=54&ProcessType=5 Quite honestly, I personally can't see paying the difference in price for most of the NOS tubes any longer. They have gotten outrageous in price for too many of the tubes and are too attractive to counterfitters and people selling used tubes as NOS. I know Kegger has scored some good deals on NOS tubes. Maybe he can give you some more advice. My opinion is by shopping well you can get 99% of what you will find in most NOS tubes at less than half the price or better. And I don't have to worry whether the plates are too short or the wrong color or what happens if one dies and I no longer have a matched pair. If you decide to try the NOS route, let me know what you hear; I'm always ready to change my mind and learn something new about tubes. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 612 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger and Jan, Much thanks. NOS tube ARE pricey from vendors. I'll try to score some on ebay. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1141 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks for the input guys. I have a chance to get a pair at a very fair price. There is something very seductive about listening to music at 85Db using less than a quarter of a watt of power. My amp would always operate in pure class A. Decisions decisions............LOL! 2C, In my limited tube rolling experience with NOS, I have found that the driver tube has the most influence on the overall sound. I would start with RCA's. They will blow away the Russian and Chinese stuff now made. Good luck. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3137 Registered: Dec-03 | Today I acquired a PrimaLuna Prologue Two. Demo model, on approval over the weekend. Will swap for mint, boxed model, if satisfied. Initial impressions are very favourable. However, it has an unexpectedly low WAF. And it chucks out heat like no other amp I have known; it is like having a small coal fire in the rack. More listening required to pronounce, but, so far, the stridency of the Sony 55ES has gone, and it seems that there is more detail and "space". Even with CD. Will report back, after some serious listening, tomorrow. Thanks for the thread, Rick! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3836 Registered: May-04 | John - I've seen the Sony power amps, it's hard to imagine anything having a lower WAF that a good sized black metal box. Which the PrimaLuna is also. It just happens to have some fire bottles on the front of it. Possibly a different finish on the amp and/or a tube cage might help. There's not much to do about the heat factor. Different tube amplifiers run at different levels of bias and will have somewhat different levels of heat (the Macs run much cooler than most tube amps I've used) but all tube amps will produce heat. In essence you are placing four large light bulbs with 400-650 volts running through them within your room. Of course, the physical charm of tubes if when the lights are off and the music just emanates from the space within the room. Chivas time! At that point the soft glow of the tubes (particularly through a cage) is reassurance enough to tube lovers they will never have to scrunch their shoulders up around their ears again while listening to their music. Good luck. If the tubes are too much inconvenience, I would suggest the MOSFET hybrid designs from Unico. Italian - good stuff! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1142 Registered: Dec-03 | John, I couldn't be happier for you my friend. Listen, and I'm sure you will be a believer. Nothing presents music better than tubes. Enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3841 Registered: May-04 | John - I understand Big Ben stopped for 90 minutes when you plugged in the PrimaLuna. What an amp!!! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1887 Registered: Aug-04 | John, I'll wait to see if you come to your senses before I comment. [grin] |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1143 Registered: Dec-03 | Check this out. Sounds like he's one of us. Read his survival guide to good audio. www.guerillaaudio.com |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3138 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks guys, It is wonderful. Here is the UK distributor page if anyone is interested in specs. ProLogue Two Jan, please do not shop me on the Big Ben outage.... The Prologue Two is altogether a different sort of big box compared with the Sony ES. Personally, I like it. Mrs A, however, says it looks like a spare part from a museum of steam locomotives. MR; our friends here were right all the time. I promise. 2c said something about painting in oils. I thought "pretentious" at the time, but it is spot on. More later. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2469 Registered: Dec-03 | John nice to see your on the path my young JEDI! Now you need to follow the teachings of master JAN_YODA. Then pass the tests from OB1KEGGY and you will be a true JEDI audio master! We must convert them aaaaalllllllll!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3140 Registered: Dec-03 | May the Force be with you, Kegger! Thanks again for the thread and the congrats, Rick. My reaction is the same as 2c's. It is not night-and-day, "in yer face". But the more you listen, the more you realise there is more to listen to. I hear it in musical phrasing. Even the quieter instruments are fully-formed; you can hear when all the notes start and finish. The there is the smoothness. I think Rick said something about a more "liquid" sound. I used to side with Gregory in thinking all amps probably sound much the same, below their thresholds of distortion. It just ain't so. Thanks especially to J. Vigne, the knowledgable and independent-minded. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3842 Registered: May-04 | I'm not taking credit for much. You guys had to try tubes on your own. It really is listening that tells what you need to know. But I remember telling Kegger about a year ago; with tubes it's all about how the notes start and stop. What happens in between is the easy stuff that any amp can do reasonably well. But if you've never heard a note start and stop correctly through your system, then you think all amps sound the same. John, now I need to send you those mono recordings to take the start stop thing one more step toward real. I'll get those off this week. What does Mrs. A. think about the sound? Have you threatened to bring in a cow catcher (not for Mrs. A., of course) to add to the ambience of the steam locomotive museum? |
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Jan_Yoda Unregistered guest | The Force - getting stronger, it is! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3142 Registered: Dec-03 | "What does Mrs. A. think about the sound?" Not convinced there is any difference. I think her perception is clouded by the cost. Even the Quads took some careful pointing out of details they revealed. And that WAS "night and day". "Have you threatened to bring in a cow catcher" The cage looks quite a bit like a cow catcher already. Click on the photos on the link in "May 29, 2005 - 10:07 am". It is a lot of dosh. I get a bit queasy at the thought of the more sensible things we could do with it. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3143 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW, by same dealer Unison recommended is. Tube CD player especially commended was. But no more "upgrades", for a long while, shall I make. Who is that little guy who with verbs his sentences always ends? |
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