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Unregistered guest | Heyo, I'm a vinyl loving, budget minded college student looking for a good stereo integrated amp for which I can hook up a record player and listen through a cheap pair of very old EV Sentry 100 monitors. I've had an audio sales person recommend the pioneer A-35R, but I would greatly appreciate a second opinion from a less biased audience of people more sympathetic for the audiophile wannabe who wants the best for what he can afford...which is by the way, around 350$ Any thoughts or help on this matter are definitely appreciated. -Jared |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3762 Registered: May-04 | I'd suggest you look into the used audio market. You'll get a lot more for your money and possibly find something much more interesting than a Pioneer receiver. Stereophile just began reviewing older audio products which represented a milestone moment in audio. The first product they reviewed was the Fisher 500C vacuum tube receiver from 1964. It got very good marks for its sound quality even after 40 years of "advances" in hifi technology. You might want to look at that review to get an idea of what's possible when you invest wisely in older pieces of audio. http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl Actually, I'd go for a Dynaco ST70 power amp with a more contemporary tube pre amp that can probably be had for around your budget dollars. If you really want a new receiver, the HK stereo receivers are the only products to consider in your price range. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3768 Registered: May-04 | |
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Unregistered guest | Actually, going used for more quality sounds like an awesome idea...The pioneer certainly doesn't have an excess of personality. I just wasn't sure where to look or how to be smart about it. Thanks so much...I will certainly scour the links you provided. -Jared |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 530 Registered: Sep-04 | One of the best out there, especially in terms of built-in phono stage for the turntable would be a Rega Brio. They may be difficult to find but if you find one you'll be grinning like a Cheshire cat. Very thin on features of course, but an excellent little amp. Regards, Frank. |
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Unregistered guest | Thanks Frank, I looked at some reviews of the brio and all agreed that it's phono stage is excellent. However, like you said it would be difficult to find in the US(I forgot to mention where I live) for $350 used. But I appreciate the suggestion and emphasis on the phono stage. That amp is quite a looker as well... Jan has really helped me out by pointing me in the direction of the Fisher 500C. They seem to be very attainable and reasonably priced used. I'm an undergrad in electrical engineering and could restore it myself. One question though: I read one review that kind of poo-pooed the 500C's phono...anyone care to convince me otherwise? (of course I will continue to investigate it myself). Thanks to all, Jared |
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Lester Unregistered guest | As an option to going vintage,... http://hometheater.about.com/cs/toppicks/tp/aatp2channela.htm Denon also makes an 80w receiver w/phono stage that goes for $349.00 MSRP, so it would be in your ball park. NAD, IIRC, also has a reputation for its phono stage. L |
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Unregistered guest | Thanks Lester, I'm currently reviewing all of the options you suggested, and they all seem to be universally praised...There are a lot of choices here. -Jared |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3772 Registered: May-04 | As to your question regarding the phono section of the Fisher and other vintage gear. There are plus and minus points to each product and here there are several things to consider when looking at vintage vs. new equipment. The days of discrete components in the phono stage of a receiver passed, for the most part, almost two decades ago. (As did decent power supplies and discrete components in almost every other section of the receiver.) The majority of what you are going to see in most "modern" components will be IC based phono sections. With an IC you get what you get and there is nothing to be done about that fact. The advantage of the vintage gear is there will always be an actual "phono section" made up of discrete resistors, capacitors and tubes or transistors. If you are looking at forty year old receivers though, you should consider that most of those discrete components have long ago drifted from their assigned values. When dealing with the small scale signals of a phono section and the large EQ provided by the RIAA curves, it wouldn't take much to drift to the point where the phono section is not accurate. Rip out the old parts and replace them with new and the performance is back in the ball park. The best example of how this is done is with the Dynaco PAS pre amps. Budget in every sense of construction when new, the PAS series is regarded as an ideal platform for upgrading with new parts. Depending on how you regard discrete components, this could be a valuable learning experience in the sound of capacitors and resistors. If you've never worked with tubes before, this could afford you an interesting experience. The alternative is to use an outboard phono section. There are many on the web for DIY at very good prices. New manufactured units begin around $100 for a NAD, less for IC based units. |
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Unregistered guest | Jan, I'm considering those fisher amps that you so kindly provided a link to. I figure that I can restore both without much trouble and for not too much money. I also like the idea of turning this into a hands on learning experience. After all, an electrical engineering undergrad degree doesn't really cover audio circuit building. After I'm done, I could sell the one I like less at a good price to a friend to make some money back...or I might just keep them both (ah, the greed). Good idea? or would you stay with that dynaco ST70 which also seems like a good learning experience? (I'm open to anyone's opinion on this) Thanks again you've been an awesome help, Jared |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3774 Registered: May-04 | Which unit you purchase is up to how you want your system to look and sound. The Fisher is a receiver with everything in one compact package. There isn't much upgrade possibility with a receiver other than changing out the receiver. But you may decide the Fisher is just what you want, at least for now. The Dyna is the hot rodder's dream. It can be built up to factory specs or taken to triode operation for even better sound with many steps in between. As a power amp only it will require at least a pre amp to make a system that works. But the upgradeability of spearates is much better than a receiver. I sold Kegger my two ST-70's and PAS pre amps. I'll send him over to give you some more help. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3775 Registered: May-04 | http://www.diytube.com/phpBB2/index.php http://www.bottlehead.com/ http://www.bavodekker.com/670.html http://audiotools.com/valve.html |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2459 Registered: Dec-03 | Jared Francis Although as Jan has said the st70 is a great starter for a more high end audio setup and the intro into the glorious world of tubes! I belive once you add a preamp to the unit with a phono stage you will be beyond your budget. This coming weekend I'm going down to ohio to see a man about a horse, woops I mean about some gear and he has informed me he has a couple stromberg carlson integrated units and if there anything like the one I've recently acquired with a great sounding phono stage that uses 12ax7 tubes plus the unit looks pretty cool and sounds great! One of these could be a very nice fit or at least point you in the right direction for a good starter systyem that will sound good now and maybe upgrade later. You may not even want to upgrade later as rick on these boards is using an integrated tube amp with the same output tubes "EL84" and loves the sound. I'm assuming your EV speakers are pretty efficient and won't need giant power to drive them. Anyway I May have something for you to consider after this weekend. I think with your budget and needs an integrated amp or reciever with built in phono stage is the way to go. If your looking at newer equipment I believe most do not include the phono stage anymore excpet most NAD units which are very nice and might fit the bill also. Nad units are well made and generally sound very good. Check AUDIOGON.com Any older tube gear is probably going to need some tender care and maybe some new tubes plus capacitor replacements before it's reliable. So keep that in mind when you look at how much your spending. Somewhere in the general ballpark of $100 to $200 in parts to get the unit up to snuff. Well that's about all I got for now. Ask any questions you wish! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2461 Registered: Dec-03 | P.S. Jan I saw that Stereophile was doing some vintage reviews and a prety cool start with the fisher 500c! Very cool indeed! |
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Unregistered guest | Wow. This is quite honestly more help than I ever imagined that I would receive from this post. What a great network of knowledgable people. I really appreciate all of the time you've put in for my little problem...I'm going to have a lot of summer reading/learning to do online while I'm hopefully listening to a great new tube amp. As for which amp that will be... Kegger, after researching the ST70 a bit, I tend to agree with you. It seems like it'd be an excellent choice, but I don't have the money to spring for a preamp (at least one worthy to go with it) and I'd like to be able to spin Dire Strait's self titled on something by the end of the summer. I have a feeling the ST-70 will find a way into my home some day, though - if my audio addiction continues. By that time, I'll also have a lot more knowledge thanks to all of the great links Jan has directed me to. As for the stromberg carlson, it sounds like an extremely good fit. I can send you an email if you want to talk a bit more about the possibility of a transaction for that, Kegger. I just thought I'd ask your permission first. My address is jbauter2@nd.edu by the way. I also noticed that the parts list for completely restoring an older piece of gear was going to be a bit pricier than I expected so thanks for that note as well. I researched some NAD amps too. Overall, as a result of everyone's help I am more confident and excited about this than ever. So thanks a lot! Jared |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2465 Registered: Dec-03 | No problem Jared you can email me, that's cool. I'll no a little more after this weekend. Where abouts are you located? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3791 Registered: May-04 | Here's my take on redoing a vintage amplifier. As you are shopping make certain the power and output transformers on a tube amp are in good shape. If these are shorted, buzzing or leaking, pass the deal by no matter how good it looks. The power supply and filter capacitors need to be changed first. Ignoring this can cause much more serious problems should they decide to take out a few bias resistors and subsequently the associated output tubes. Look for an amplifier that has had this service done when searching the clasifieds. Assess the condition of the tubes to get an idea which tubes will need replacing first. Output tubes tend to need the most frequent replacement ( an amplifier with a soft start circuit will give longer life); while input and driver tubes will make an obvious improvement in the sound quality and noise factor. Once again look for a unit which has reasonably new tubes or has been checked by a tech rather recently. New tubes for what you might be considering can be had on the internet at reasonable prices, I think Kegger has managed some excellent deals on eBay. Forget about tube rolling at this point, just buy some (consistently) good quality Russian tubes until you are more acquainted with the sound of your amplifier. Then work your way through the amp by replacing small blocking and coupling caps. Unless you are trying to make something exotic out of your vintage amp, these are very reasonable in price. If the amplifier uses phenolic boards, you may have to do some resoldering to solve open circuit problems. Amplifiers like the Dynacos which were offered as kits will usually have too many opens from cold solder joints to consider these for purchase unless you can be assured the seller has solved the problems first. These intermittent problems can often be the most persistently troublesome on a vintage piece. Finally resistors and seimconductors for a few dollars more should get you an amplifier that will go for another decade or more without serious problems. |
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Unregistered guest | Hello again, Thanks for the advice Jan. That's exactly the kind of practical advice that is so easy for the pro's to communicate but can be difficult for a beginner to learn so quickly (without a lot of bad purchases). I have an older friend who has been in the audio/music game for a long time. He also owns an antique shop. I've seen him acquire some really great vintage HK and Sansui tube amplifiers around the area for less than 20$ at a yard sale. I've always thought about getting out there and searching myself but just didn't feel confident enough to know what to look for. Your restoration steps are also very practical, and they seem to fit very nicely with my situation - big problems first, small tweaks second. I've also enjoyed reading those tube links you provided. I have close to no experience with hearing tube amplifiers (besides guitar amplifiers and some recording studio gear), but at least I'm gaining some solid technical knowledge. What's your take on integrated amplifiers and upgradability? I opened up an old SS sansui that I have lying around, but I imagine that the older tube ones could be different. Any serious issues with upgrading an integrated versus separate? Kegger got me interested in stromberg carlson so I was looking at some ASR-433s the other day...cool looking amps. thanks again, Jared |
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Unregistered guest | Jan, I noticed that in one of the links you provided, there are two interesting integrateds listed within my price range. A dynaco SCA-35 and a heathkit AA-32...heard any of those? I'm gonna research them a bit more... thanks, jared |
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Unregistered guest | "in my humble opinion, the SCA-35 could be best described as an engineering mistake and a moderate marketing success. Dyna took snippets of the PAS, ST-70 and ST-35, threw them into a Cuisinart, and came up with the SCA-35. The phono preamp stage doesn't come even close to RIAA characteristics, the tone controls definitely alter the sonics of the amp, but not in a euphonic way, and the things ran hotter than Hell on an August afternoon." -this guy is obviously not too hot on the sca-35... Jared |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3820 Registered: May-04 | The SCA-35 filled a niche for Dynaco, that's about all that can be said for it. It has the same basic Dyna sound as their other products, just less of it. As a beginning point it would be acceptable because of its simplicity and the price is good because it doesn't have the magic of the more popular Dyna units. But don't judge Dynaco or even good tubes in general by this product. (In all fairness, many older tube amplifiers often sound more like the SCA-35 than they do the ST-70.) There is an issue of "old school" and "new school" tube sound that should probably be addressed, this just isn't the time to do that. Remind me and I'll give you some input on that aspect or possibly Kegger will want to contribute since he and I had this conversation last year. The Heath pieces are a mixed bag all around. Most of their products were sold as kits and not assembled units. So sloppy workmanship has hampered many of the Heath products ability to reach beyond average status. But Heath turned out dozens of designs and many were knock offs of more famous products or designed by well respected engineers. The web will tell you what to look for in Heath products and what to avoid. No matter what you are looking at in Heath or Dyna a factory asembled model is the more preferreable over a kit unit. The Orion guide is the blue book of audio and most other thinghs old. You can access it on the web (it used to be a dealer only option and was literally a large blue book) but there is a fee. http://www.orionbluebook.com/orionnew/index.asp HK is almost always a safe bet in their tube gear. Sansui and the very earliest Pioneer tube amps are worth looking at. Unfortunately for someone looking for a bargain, price is almost always an indicator of desirability. The ST-70 is the best example of this philosophy and the McIntosh and Marantz are the most extreme. My MC240 Mac tubes sell for about 10X what they did new. But there are some people who don't realize what they have and regard tubes of any ilk to be "old stuff". Good sounding tube amplifiers can be found in poor cosmetic condition that sell for little to nothing. If your friend can assist you with a few items, you really can't go too far wrong with any amplifier that can be had for less than $100. It may not be the last amp you'll ever own, but, on the other hand, you won't be intimidated when you begin to rip out those paper in oil capacitors and wire wound resistors. And the price of most vintage tube gear has stabilized to the point where you can get back what you paid as long as it works. An integrated should be a fine start just as a receiver could satisfy what you require right now. If I had my druthers I would consider any receiver or integrated as more desirable if you can separate the pre and power amplifiers with jacks on the rear of the unit. This can allow a more gradual upgrade when the funds become available or the good fortune to find a McIntosh MC275 for $50 appears. Of course I would always choose good sound over anything else. If it sounds good you can easily resell it should that become your desire. |