Paradigm Monitors...need new receiver..which one?
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-04 | I am new here, so I apologize if I duplicated the following post! Need some help as I need to replace my tired Onkyo TSDS494. I have a paradigm Monitor system (7's for the fronts, Mini's for rear, CC370 center, and Servo 15) I would like to spend 750-1000 on a new receiver. I do not have the luxury of reviewing Yamaha, HK, Marantz, NAD, Onkyo, etc with the paradigms as the dealer only has Yamaha, Sun, and Outlaw with the speakers. The receiver will be used for about 80% TV and DVD and 20% music. Any advice will be greatly appreciated! Also, I am not familiar with NAD, but they seem to have a following here....any recommendations? |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 157 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun, I think that NAD and Paradigm make a wonderful combination. I have heard the combo in a dealer a few times, and I think it is simply wonderful. The Paradigms are very detailed, as is the NAD, so the combo is even better. I have an NAD paired with PSB speakers (which are sonically very similar to Paradigm) and I absolutely love them. In your price range, you could get either the NAD T743 or NAD T753. That would be my first recommendation. You mentioned Yamaha in your posting. Usually I don't recommend Yamaha, but Paradigm is one of only a few speaker brands that Yamaha might sound OK with. Yamaha has a very bright sound, and paired with the wrong speaker can sound almost shrill. Paradigm is a relatively warm sounding speaker, so it kind of tames the Yamaha brightness. If you do go for Yamaha, I would stick with the upper stuff (i.e. the 1400 on up). I have heard that these upper models are not quite as bright sounding as the lower models. You also mentioned Outlaw. I was quite surprised by this as I didn't know Outlaw was sold at any dealers. I was under the impression that they were sold only on the Outlaw website. Since it is mail order only, Outlaw is sometimes hard to come by. Consequently, I have never heard Outlaw in person. However, I have heard from others on this forum that Outlaw makes some wonderful units. They have a pre/pro and amp combination (7100 amp and 950 pre/pro)that is very reasonably priced...so you can get separates for close to the same price as a receiver (although I think it is still a bit out of your price range-total price $1700). Unfortunately, Outlaw's only A/V receiver ($499) has gone out of production. So if you are tied to the budget you listed above, you might have to take them out of consideration. |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-04 | Johnny, Thanks for the info. I am heading out now to acutally listen to an NAD..seems there is a dealer within 30 miles. Also, is all the reliability concerns with NAD valid? Seems like many people are having problems with them (or maybe those are older models?) Thanks again for your help and thoughts..I will let ya know what happens! (I would not be surprised if I come home with something today...I am in the mood to buy!) Shaun |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 160 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun, Please don't hate me if I happen to be wrong, but if it were me, I truly would not worry about any reliability issues with NAD. I knew about the risks when I bought my 762, and it worked out just fine for me. I won't go into too much detail (I have gone into several rants on this topic in other threads), but I think the NAD bug reports are very over blown. Don't get me wrong, there are some people that have some very legitimate problems with NAD, but they are definately in the minority. I have personally spoken with two different dealers (who together probably sell at least as many or maybe more NAD receivers than anyone else in the country) about the bug reports and they have both stated that they have had NO more problems with NAD's than they have had with other brands. One dealer said that there were some issues about 2 years ago, but he said even then, the return rate was like 2 or 3 of every 50 that they sold. Those seem like pretty good odds to me. But, like I said, don't hunt me down if you happen to be one of those 2 or 3. :-) |
|
Bronze Member Username: BuckeyeshinePost Number: 31 Registered: Feb-04 | Shawn, I echo Jonny's comments. I almost didn't consider NAD at all, quickly discounting them because of all the negatives flying around here. I really recall telling myself "forget them" with everybody ranting of negative quality issues. Then I had others even outside this forum recommend NAD so I gave them a "look". I spoke to my local dealer who had nothing but positives and let me test drive a T763 at home with my Paradigms. I was sold and for the past month I have had a love afair with my T773. There are obviously some real life problems out there with people's posts but as I've said before, it is difficult to quantify a problem based on posts on a forum. Especially a forum that a lot of people come to for help with problems their having. Good luck. |
|
Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 279 Registered: Dec-03 | It is somewhat difficult to make a recommendation without knowing what your budget is for the receiver. Also knowing your room size would be beneficial. |
|
Anonymous | Shaun gave a budget. It was $750-$1000. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 397 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun: I have had my NAD 753 now for about a month and I have nothing but the highest praises for its sound and operation, which I find very intuitive and comprehensible (unlike my Denon). I have had no trouble and nothing but enjoyment. I home tested a pair of Paradigm Monitor 5s three weeks ago and the sound was simply superb. My local Paradigm dealer carries both Yamaha and NAD, so I have listened to both. To my ears, the NADs sound so much better with Paradigm speakers that is was an easy choice (mind you, Paradigms make most receivers sound good, but the NAD is much better to my ears). I would echo the recommendaiton of Johnny here that an NAD T753 would be a great match for your speakers. The street price is about $799. You can also look for a discontinued T762 from several dealers which will have even more power (but the feature set will be pretty much the same as the 753). Here are a few dealers that I know still have the T762, some are new, some are demos and some are refurbs: http://yawaonline.com/nadt7sursoun4.html http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/nadspec.htm http://www.dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm Good luck! |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-04 | First, let me say thank you for the responses! I went to the local NAD dealer and all I can say is WOW! The sound is so smooth, clear, detailed and full! Ended up walking out with the 763! Got it all hooked up last night around 11 pm, and I know I made the right decision! The difference from the old Onkyo is absolutely night and day! Mid bass is much more defined, the sound more full, and dare I say it seems to have opened up my entire system (even the Servo 15 sounds better for some reason!) I can really tell when all the channels are driven at once...my rears (Mini Monitors) sound 100% better...now I see why these speakers consistently get rave reviews! With the Onxyo, they always felt and sounded weak and thin (on the rear surrounds) Once again, thank you all for your assistance in making this decision!! Hopefully I can contribute some of my own epxeriences etc in the future! Shaun |
|
Bronze Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 13 Registered: Feb-04 | Surrounds ans centers feel weak with lower end Onkyos because they are always set to "small", despite the settings. This is clearly shown by frequency measurements. |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 164 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun, Congrats on your purchase. Don't you just love impulse buys! I look forward to reading more once you get a chance to listen more indepth. |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 227 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun, congratulations on your new NAD. I have Paradigms (albeit the bipolars) for my front array. Isn't that CC370 center just awesome when supplied with the right power?! (I have the CC-450.) The Canadians are doing something right with speakers. I have Paradigms in front and Mirage (another Canadian company) in back. I am about to put a Paradigm OM-C2 in the back for my 6.1 setup. (I don't want to do 7.1 even though my receiver supports it... should be interesting.) |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-04 | Yes, I seem to do those impulse buys quite a bit..then I have to explain to the wife why "we" needed all the new gear! I have had Paradigm speakers for a couple years and I feel they do do something right! For the price/performance, I do not think they can beat! I did have a couple questions that perhaps you all can help me with. Of course I have set everything up and it sound great, but I am wondering if I am not maximizing the sound??!! I am confused with the dreaded crossover and small/large speaker settings! (this may be a tired subject, and I know it will vary with equipment), but what are your views? I currently have all my speakers set to Small, (even though they are obviously full range) and I have the receiver crossing the sub over at 60 hz. I have bounced back and forth between 60 and 80..not sure where I like it better. THe thing that confuses me is 1) the large/small indication.....if set to small, then is everything below 80 hz sent to the sub? If so, then it would stand to reason I need the sub crossed at 80?!?!??? 2), as some of you know, the Servo 15 has the x30 outboard crossover and phase adjuster. The NAD book says to defeat the sub's crossover (set it as high as it goes) and use the receiver to cross it over...I would have thought with the receiver crossing the sub at 60 that the x30 crossover would have been rendered useless (for crossing over...obviously the volume and phase adjustments would still work)...but it seems this is not the case!! Even with the receiver set at 60 hx Crossover, if I move the x30's crossover range up, it affects the sound of the sub!! I may had done a lousy job trying to explain this, but hopefully you will know what I am talking about (small/large settings and using the crossover points and external Servo 15's x30 crossover).....help!!!! Shaun |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 167 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun, I have bookshelf speakers, so obviously, my speakers are all set to small. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have heard many people recommend that even though your speakers are "full range", that you still set them to small (provided you have a sub). That way, the speakers can focus on the mid-upper sounds and not have to strain to get to some of those very low frequencies that home theater (and sometimes music) can bring. The sub only provides the low sounds for speakers set to "small", so if you set your mains to large, the sub will only be providing sound from the surround and center speakers. I am sure that some would disagree, but I seem to remember a thread on this topic a couple of weeks ago, and I think it was decided that a setting of "small" would give the best results. Also, I seem to remember a discussion of this in the owners manual. I don't have it in front of me, so I cant tell you exactly what page it is on, but they recommend a setting of "small" on any HT system that has a sub present. As for crossovers, I have mine set to 80 hz. My sub is fairly simple and does not have its own crossover setting...so someone else can probably better help you with that. |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 229 Registered: Dec-03 | Johnny: I will disagree but only with the small setting for certain speakers. When I set my Paradigm Reference Eclipse/BPs to small I lose all detail in the base range of about 80Hz-200Hz. I have them set to large (they are physically large as well  ). These speakers have base extension to 18Hz, but I don't like the base below 60Hz from them. I have my crossover set at 60Hz and them set to large. My center channel (Paradigm Reference CC-450) is also set to large -- the CC-450 has the same drivers as the Eclipse/BPs. Setting my LCR trio to small makes the sound dull and flat. My Paradigm Reference Eclipse/BPs just have better (punchier, faster) bass in the 60-200Hz range than my Velodyne sub. So, I'm just saying that the small setting is probably for speakers whose base in the 80Hz-200Hz range is awful. (Note: when you set speakers to small the cutoff frequency for base is set to 200Hz on most receivers. If your receiver allows you to also set the crossover of the base independantly, when the speakers are set to small, then make sure you don't get a frequency hole. So if you have them set to small, the system shouldn't let you set the crossover frequency or at least not let you set it below 200Hz.) So, I guess I'd set my surround (rear/back) to small and if my LCR trio are really good, I'd set them to large -- those are my settings with a base cutoff of 60Hz. Maybe it's just my speakers. |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-04 | Well, I just got done calibrating everything with the new DVE. Quite a bit more in deloth than Avia (have the new Hitachi 50v500 so I needed to calibrate my videa also). I played around with the bass sweeps from 15 -150hz and higher...seems like I get the best results when I cross the sub at 60 (on the NAD receiver), set the x30 crossover (that is part of the servo 15) to about 80. Aside from knocking two pictures off the wife's wall, it seems to work...I have all speakers still set to small, but I am going to mess with that a little more. The Paradigm Monitor 7's and CC370 are definately full range with a good mid bass and the same drivers (like all of paradigm matched systems), so I am still not convinced they should be set to small (like so many people and reviews have indicated....) Geekboy - I would think the Monitor 7's would have more (better?) mid bass response than the Reference BP's you have (even though the monitors are obviously lower on the Paradigm heirarchy than their reference series)....Thanks again (Johnny and Geekboy) for the responses...I will mess around in the coming days and see what happens! Shaun |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-04 | Geekboy - I just read my thread above...that did not come out right...I did not mean to say the 7's have better bass response (than the BP's)...just that I would think Monitor 7's would have decent bass extension, but in fact, I just looked at the specs, and the low frequency extension is only 33hz...nowhere near your BP's!....sorry about that! Shaun |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 230 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun: don't worry about that. It was confusing, but I think I understood where you were going. For some speakers, setting to small is appropriate, I don't disagree with that. My BPs, although they are 35Hz-20kHz (with base extension to 18Hz), I don't like anything below 60Hz from them. Like you, I have my crossover set to 60Hz and my subwoofer's crossover setting set to 80Hz... just to not have a frequency hole. Hey, I'm off to DisneyWorld in an hour. Hope you enjoy your Sunday afternoon. |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 169 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun and geekboy, I just reread my posting too...and mine didn't come out right either. After reading my posting, I can understand your confusion. I didn't mean to imply that ALL speakers should be set to "small" regardless of range, rather that SOME might need to be. It is true that the NAD owners manual recommends setting all speakers to small if a sub is present...but that doesn't necessarily mean that your own personal preferences wouldn't tell you to do otherwise. This may also be a charachteristic unique to NAD as well...who knows. Sorry for any confusion. Geekboy, Let me ask you a question then...for my own benefit. So obviously, you have your fronts set to "large" AND you have a sub. So what sounds exactly are going to the sub? You said in your last posting that "I don't like anything below 60Hz from them. Like you, I have my crossover set to 60Hz and my subwoofer's crossover setting set to 80Hz... just to not have a frequency hole." So if all sounds lower than 60Hz are sent to the sub...then how is this different than setting your speakers to "small"...it sounds like the same thing...but maybe I am missing something. I thought that if your speakers were set to "large"...the sub was used only for LFE on these channels. To quote the NAD manual "You can set Subwoofer to "On" even with "Large" front speakers, in which case bass content from any channels set to "Small" will be routed to both the subwoofer and to the front speakers; LFE-channel signal will pass only to the sub. In most subwoofer-equipped systems, setting front speakers to "Small" is usually the better option." I don't know what brand of receiver you have, but could you please relate the above quote to your own experiences? This is all very confusing for someone who has only bookshelf speakers! |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 231 Registered: Dec-03 | Johnny: (you can check my profile by clicking my username to the left of my response). I have a Harman Kardon AVR-525. I had this since October 2003. Ok, so I have my L/C/R trio set to a cutoff of 60Hz and my speakers set to large. While all frequencies would go to my L/C/R trio, the cutoff is an low-pass filter which cuts off the frequencies below that point and directs them only to the subwoofer (output). So even though I have them set to large, and the frequency response of the receiver is 20Hz-20kHz, the crossover will affect which frequencies are sent to the speakers and the subwoofer. On most receivers, when you set your speakers to small, the system automagically sets the crossover at 200Hz, sending everything below 200Hz to the subwoofer. Not to confuse you anymore, but my H/K allows me to set the crossover at 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 and 200Hz. I could "manually" set an equivalent crossover which is the same as setting it to "small" (i.e. setting the crossover at 200Hz). The H/K also allows me to assign a bass cutoff which goes to the LFE (sub) while still sending the full range to the front L/R pair. Perhaps that's what makes my setup easier to deal with. I have the speakers set to large (my front 3) and have the Subwoofer set to L/R + LFE. The H/K (my model) has triple crossover settings and the newer ones have quadruple crossover settings, making it easier to get that perfect cutoff. But generally, you're right and maybe it's just a feature of the H/K (higher end) line. While most receivers will not redirect bass from the L/R to the subwoofer when you have the speakers set to large, the H/K allows you to do this. So I get the full range to my front L/C/R trio, as well as the bass below the cutoff sent to the subwoofer. It gives me great bass reinforcement because the L/R pair are also reproducing bass below my cutoff frequency of 60Hz. To make it less confusing... if you have bookshelves... you'd always set them to small. |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 171 Registered: Dec-03 | geekboy, Just so I understand this right..."So I get the full range to my front L/C/R trio, as well as the bass below the cutoff sent to the subwoofer". Does this mean that the bass below the cutoff is kind of "duplicated" (for lack of a better term)? By that, I mean are the low sounds (below the cutoff) produced by both the L/C/R trio and the sub? That is the way I read your posting. I don't need any more confusion in my life...maybe that is why I have bookshelves! |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 232 Registered: Dec-03 | Johnny, right, I get a.) all frequencies sent to the L/C/R trio, and b.) the frequencies below the cutoff (60Hz in my case) sent to the subwoofer. It's the best of both worlds. I'm starting to like my system again. I just got Lord Of The Rings (Fellowship and Two Towers) and they are both Dolby Digital EX. I'm gonna add a Mirage OM-C2 to the rear to get that 6th channel. Also, music is awesome not that I've found some HDCD discs. No I need to get a new DVD player which does SACD and DVD-A... more than likely I'll stick with Sony and get the Sony NS-900V... poor man's ES. |
|
Silver Member Username: JohnnyMissouri Post Number: 172 Registered: Dec-03 | geekboy, Thanks a lot...confusion is considerably less now. Was there a time in which you didn't like your system? Thanks again. |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 233 Registered: Dec-03 | Johnny: yeah, that didn't come out right. I've always liked my system, but since I got the Harman Kardon (replacing the Kenwood), I've liked it more. Now that I've found these new music formats (HDCD, SACD, DVD-A), I'm liking it again. You know, it's like when you get that new computer. A Itanium 4 w/ 3.0GHz processing and 1GB of RAM and 120GB hard drive. Then about 6 months later you think it's slow, you're running out of disk space, and memory seems crammed? But, then, you update your hard drive to 300GB and find some new program that makes you like your computer again. Not the perfect analogy, but it fits. |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 9 Registered: Mar-04 | Now I am confused! In the NAD manual, it states (like Johnny said) that all signals that would have gone below the cutoff frequencey ar edirected to the front left and right speakers AND to the sub...of course, the LFE only goes to the sub. Well, my question being, if most receivers small/large cutoff frequencey is 200hz, then what about the NAD's? The NAD has the variable sub cutoff of 40, 60,80,100,120,150,200 hz.....if I set the speakers to small, and then choose 80 as the sub cutoff, does anyone know if that moves the 5 speaker (F/C/R/Surrounds) to that specific cutoff frequencey? Or does this now leave me with a whole from 80-200 (assuming 200 is the NAD default cutoff)...sorry again fellas if I am repeating...I just don't understand why manufacturers have the small/large setting, and then tell you NOTHING about where that setting is! Comfused in VA......... Shaun |
|
Silver Member Username: GeekboyNewport, RI United States Post Number: 234 Registered: Dec-03 | Shaun: yeah, confusing. when you say "it states... that all signals that would have gone below the cutoff frequency are directed to the front left and right speakers AND to the sub", do you mean for a large setting? My only difference was that on the H/K, you can select whether or not a large speaker setting sends bass to both the L/R pair and the subwoofer or only to the subwoofer. For the H/K (AVR x25 series... at least), setting the speakers to small "low-frequency sounds will be sent only to the subwoofer output". But, what makes it confusing is that you can still adjust the crossover frequency from 40Hz - 200Hz. Also, I think I misprepresented the 200Hz cutoff a bit. This is not a default. It is just a recommended frequency, apparently, for small satellite speakers. The selection of the cutoff frequency still affects what's sent where. So, if you select small and 80Hz, then the cutoff is 80Hz (forget what I wrote about 200Hz). (Adding to my corrections, the H/K sets the default cutoff at 100Hz for all channels.) |
|
Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 281 Registered: Dec-03 | I know on some higher end receivers you can (if you have large towers in the front) set the crossover for surround play at 60, 80, 100Hz and when playing stereo have no crossover. You have to check your manual to see if your receiver has this capability. I would think if you set your crossover on the subwoofer, the dvd player, and the receiver at 80 hz it will crossover at 80 hz whether you set it large or small. Unless you have micro speakers that don't play well below 120 Hz, then you should have a receiver that is capable of performing a higher crossover, such as up to 150Hz. But most bookshelf speakers benefit from a 80Hz crossover, even if the specs say they go down to 50Hz or less. Generally the distortion (particularly when played loud) goes up considerably in many bookshelf speakers in the bottom last 20-30 Hz. And even a tower speaker in surround with bookshelf speakers elsewhere will probably benefit from a 60-80Hz crossover. The trick is getting a quality subwoofer (such as a HSU, the new Outlaw Audio LFM-1, SVS, and some other quality subs) to handle the lower frequencies with applomb. |
|
New member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 10 Registered: Mar-04 | Well, I believe I have my answers (sorry for not understanding before!). I talked to the local NAD installer and (at least with NAD receivers) when you adjust the sub crossover setting, that in turm moves the crossover settings for all the other speakers (assuming you had them set at small)...so, setting the sub crossover (on the receiver) at 80, then automatically crosses the main speakers at 80 also...no need for me (others?) to worry about a frequencey hole (Geekboy, you were exactly right!) I also understand that the external crossover that comes with the Paradigm Servo 15 (the x30) is pretty much rendered useless (except for adjusting any phase problems one may have). No wonder it sounded best crossed at 60! Thanks again to all of you for sounding in with your thoughts and recommendations...I appreciate it! Shaun |
|
Bronze Member Username: GtsumVA Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-04 | Well, I believe I have my answers (sorry for not understanding before!). I talked to the local NAD installer and (at least with NAD receivers) when you adjust the sub crossover setting, that in turm moves the crossover settings for all the other speakers (assuming you had them set at small)...so, setting the sub crossover (on the receiver) at 80, then automatically crosses the main speakers at 80 also...no need for me (others?) to worry about a frequencey hole (Geekboy, you were exactly right!) I also understand that the external crossover that comes with the Paradigm Servo 15 (the x30) is pretty much rendered useless (except for adjusting any phase problems one may have). No wonder it sounded best crossed at 60! Thanks again to all of you for sounding in with your thoughts and recommendations...I appreciate it! Shaun |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics