Inexpensive phono stage for low output mc cartridge!
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2375 Registered: Dec-03 | I have a denon DL-103 cartridge and am new to the world of vinyl. On a denon DP62-L. Anyways the cartridge has an output of .37 so from what I've read that's pretty low and I need gain in the area of 60db? My preamp has no phono so I need a phono stage with a good amount of gain. Do I want to do the step up transformer deal then phono stage or just a high gain stage? My whole system is tube right now so I don't believe I necasarily need a tube phono stage? So I guess solid state would do also? What's recomended? Just looking for something that sounds good. What about the jolida's and asl's? I'm thinking probably along the the lines of the used market. Anyone familiar with this design? Any and all opinions welcome! The cheaper the better but it's gotta sound good! (If that's possable) |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 460 Registered: Sep-04 | You're correct that the Denon DL-103 is a low output moving coil (MC) cartridge, its output being 0.37mV. So you need either a stepup transformer going into a MM phono stage or an MC phono stage. I usually advise people go for the MC phono stage. First of all, there's a variety of choices available. Secondly stepup transformers are expensive when they're good and throdly you incur the cost of the extra interconnect between the stepup and the MC so in your case (inexpensive brief) you'd prefer to spend the money on the more important bit... Tube phono stages tend to be MM only because of the noise problems associated with tube circuits. That said, I have heared good things said of the EAR 834P phono stage which retails for around $300 and is MM/MC switchable. As to inexpensive choices, there are many around but the most inexpensive one is the Project Phono Box which retails for £45 or about $70. It's a great little machine which is MM/MC switchable. There is also a quality version called the Phono Box SE which retails for around £120 or $200. This is far superior to the standard model so go for it if you can afford it. I know nothing of the models you mention. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 571 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Congrats on the new TT! Hope you find spinning records as rewarding as I have. You might want to look into an older ARC tube preamp with phono sections (e.g., SP-6, SP-8, SP-10) or a CJ PV-5. But I'm not sure if they have enough gain for your cart. Frank, I think you get better deals on the EAR and Project gear on your side of the pond. Those prices seem very good indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3486 Registered: May-04 | Kegger - The Denon 103 is a very good cartridge with a definite personality. http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/denon-dl103_e.html Do you know the stylus type that is fitted to the cartridge and what condition the stylus is in? Some came with a conical stylus. Even though they both bear the same manufacturer's name, there was some discussion of how well the 103 worked in the arm on the 62. My recollection of the 103 is a cartridge that can put lots of information - good and bad - into the tonearm. It has a very stiff suspension that inhibits tracking and traceablility. Not necessarily a bad thing, but do be aware of what the cartridge asks of the associated components. Others may disagree, but I don't remember suggesting the 103 with anything less than the most rigid arm affordable. Detachable headshells need not apply. The old fashioned high tracking force (2.5 grams?) can be dangerous when the stylus begins to wear, particularly the conical stylus. That doesn't mean it does not work reasonably well in a "S" arm, just that the cartridge has better matches as far as choosing a separate arm. I'll suggest that what you have at the moment is similar to "my dad's got a barn, let's put on a show". But you're probably too young to know how many of MGM's technicians it required to pull that stunt off for the cameras. Despite the reputation of the 103, if the stylus is worn, you will be damaging as many records as you are playing. My first concern would be the condition of the stylus. Secondly, picking a cartridge with such low output is asking for problems in gain stages. This is a perrenial problem with very low output cartridges. Finding a step up device, whether passive or active, that will provide the gain and keep the circuit quiet is a reason the 103 never had a larger following. I would read a few old reviews on the 103 to see what you might be facing. Of course, the loading of a moving coil cartridge is something that would give your tweaker's heart hours if not years of enjoyment. If you thought rolling tubes was fun, wait till you try loading a 103. My suggestion would be to intially try a different cartridge. A decent moving magnet that; 1) is more suitable to the arm you're going to use. (The detachable headshell will make swapping moving magnet cartidges a snap. You can roll cartridges for a while.) and 2) will require less demands on your system until you get used to the sound of the table and cartridges. Buy or build a phono section or pre amp that has a RIAA section and use the moving magnet cartridge(s) for now until you can determine the condition of the 103 and whether you want to get into the additional requirements it asks. Put the 103 in a drawer until the one night you are ready to break out the cartridge and the 18 year old Chivas. In that order. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3487 Registered: May-04 | |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2377 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan I will post more later but the cartridge is brand new and I'm allready using it. I borrowed a step up unit from the guy I got the table from. And he loaned me a linn preamp unit also with both mc and mm duties so I can get an idea of what I may go after. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2378 Registered: Dec-03 | can only post so much while I'm at work! Darnit! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2381 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank Abela thanks for the advice and that's what I was thinking an mc phono stage instead of buying 2 pieces of gear and the extra interconects but I thought to ask the more seasoned vinylphiles! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2382 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents I don't really want to buy another preamp as the anthem seems to work really well for me and I was thinking an external phono stage would be more "flexable" if I do change things in the future. Buuttt I would like to try a preamp with 6sn7 or 6sl7 tubes only because I have most of the other areas covered and would like to see what that brings to the table. So maybe a preamp based on those tubes with a high gain mc phono stage, humm. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2383 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan I had allready been to that first link you posted but the second one , WWHHOO a wealth of info there I need to read. The gentelmen I got the table from suggested the denon dl-103 cartridge as he had used one on the table and when I did some research found many are fond of the denon table and the denon dl-103 cartridge. So I went out and got one. The table has 2 arms one straight and one s. The s has the detachable headshell and the straight one has a audio technica at155lc cartridge which I can't find any info on. So from your post I'll either put the denon cartridge on the straight arm (says laminated damped shell) or use the audio tecnica one for now. As far as the stylus goes all it says in the manual is diamond and double construction cantilever, whatever that means. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3492 Registered: May-04 | For the Japanese tables in their price range, the Denon tables were among the best. Their looks alone are enough to sell the table. They have a susceptibility to feed back and foot fall problems so isolation is key to getting the most out of the Denon tables. Since you like bass, Sorbothane feet might be a starting point or the new Vibrapod cones: http://www.vibrapod.com/ Placed on a triple layer of MDF, these footers should provide good isolation from most outside forces. Ignore the Denon feet. Do not sit the table on a massive support. Light but rigid is most often best here. Decouple the shelves if possible. The arm shown in your picture looks like the standard Denon arm for the 62. Does the straight arm have any other identification? The AT cartridge may be a house cartridge for some store chain. You can begin to figure out what it might be close to in the regular AT line by looking at the color of the stylus assembly. The color is almost always the guide with AT. The 103 should have some identification on the bottom of the cartridge. I don't remember the identifiers on the Denon cartridges, but that one web site probably can help you there. I don't remember the term "double construction cantilever" with Denon. Often this refers to a stepped cantilever that is made from two materials to cut resonance and stiffen the cantilever. If the cantilever has a stepped, two piece appearance, this is probably what the term refers to. Track the Denon at the high end of its tracking force. Tracking too light damages more records than tracking a bit heavier. Setting up a cartridge requires more than the Denon protractor. The best protractors are two point types that can be found at sites such as Music Direct. Get a good record cleaner and stylus cleaner. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/vibration.html http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/ttsetup.html http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2384 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan again thanks for the info: When I setup the table in the "listening room" I will do as you say! "They have a susceptibility to feed back and foot fall problems so isolation is key to getting the most out of the Denon tables. Since you like bass, Sorbothane feet might be a starting point or the new Vibrapod cones: http://www.vibrapod.com/ Placed on a triple layer of MDF, these footers should provide good isolation from most outside forces. Ignore the Denon feet. Do not sit the table on a massive support. Light but rigid is most often best here. Decouple the shelves if possible. " All the straight arm says is (laminated damped shell) and denon on it. Both the denon and that AT look like the cartridges on that website. The AT looks like this one but the round things on the sides are black! http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Audio-Technica/product/Audio-Technica_AT-150MLX __VM_Type_Stereo_Cartridge.html And the denon looks just like this one and only says DL-103 on it anywhere. I have the box and 2 pieces of paperwork for it. The info is the same also except I don't see this "Needle: 16.5 micron round pin" listed on my paperwork. And theres a measured piece of paper in the box from like a factory testing that says .37mv and a frequency graph. http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon/product/Denon_DL-103_Moving_Coil_Cartridg e.html |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2386 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey I'm gettin somewhere! Put the straight arm back on with the AT cartridge which is a high gain cartridge and plugged the table into my pas 3 that I got running a while back well low and behold it's startin to sound pretty dann good! Still would like to get a phono stage though, the ear 834p does look interesting and the gentlemen I got the table from has 1 I can try so I think I'll do that and test both cartridges on it, would be nice to be able to use both with 1 stage. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 461 Registered: Sep-04 | I'd be very interested in what you think... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2389 Registered: Dec-03 | Well I picked up the ear 834P it's the loaded one minus the crome faceplate. Just like this one! He says if I like it we may be able to work something out! I think the design of this thing is very intuitive. It has the transformer for uping the mc then tubes for the rest of the gain (adjustable) stage and when in the mm position only uses the tubes so basicly a 2 in one unit. And like you said frank it gets incredable reviews. So I hope this works as advertized! The owner said the only thing he's heard better is his rhea phono stage. http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/saturnpg2.html But then again at $4000 and all the adjustments that thing has not to mention the quality components it's built with I hope it does sound better. What a piece of machinary that thing is. Hes got 3 tables hooked to it and multiple saved settings for each one. But he swares the EAR was hard to beat and at first before he changed tubes in the rhea the ear sounded better with that one tweaked with nos tubes also. So I hope I got a treat coming my way. Well see! If anything else I'm getting to test a lot of gear in my home which is nice. He also loaned me his fidelity researh rtf-5 to try. with all this stuff plus the linn preamp, I'm able to try many different combos. I just hope it's all worth it in the end and I can find something that works. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3513 Registered: May-04 | Kegger, if you can't find something "that works" out of all the stuff you have right now, there's little hope you ever will. Have you taken an inventory lately? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2392 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree with you Jan and will be listening here shortly! Yes all is inventoried! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2393 Registered: Dec-03 | UUHMM YYAAHH!!! The ear's like the ear! WOW! So that's what vinyl is suppose to sound like! I'd say right now the sound is slightly better then standard cd. COOL! And I don't even know how to setup a table properly yet. It should only get better? More to come later. Now I just have to figure out how to pay for this thing. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2394 Registered: Dec-03 | Both cartridges like the ear. So the stepup part works great to. The denon cartridge is .37mv and the AT is 4mv so I tested both settings on the stage. Right now listening to the denon and it's got a little better bass. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3516 Registered: May-04 | Kegger - Go to the main page of the link I supplied above for instructions on table set up. John has provided a thread on "Phono" that is helpful. I went through table set up on the old "Defintions and descriptions" thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56618.html The most important part you need right now is a good two point protractor. You can order one from Music Direct, there was an offer for a free protractor on this site about six months ago or I can send you a copy of mine. The cartridge has to ride in the groove with the correct geometry. If it doesn't you can damage the disc and the overall sound will not be clean and well presented. The VTA of the tonearm will affect many things about how the cartridge sounds. Read the article from the link first. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2395 Registered: Dec-03 | Sounds good Jan will do, thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3005 Registered: Dec-03 | Great stuff, Kegger. Here is the thread I think Jan was referring to. Concerning turntables and LPs. Simple things your father knew, probably. It was for new beginners. There might be some general things, there. But as regards the specifics, you are already in the fast lane with phono. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2396 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm reading those links now, thanks. Here's a pic of the setup I'm listening to at the moment before it goes to the big room.  |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 466 Registered: Sep-04 | Heh, Kegger, Vinyl can sound a lot better than CD - or a lot worse if setup incorrectly or with poorly matched components. When it's good, it's really really good. My own phono stage is made by a loon in Wales called Tom Evans. The Groove retails for around $3500, has only one input, has no configurability (all done on a back-to-factory basis) and no valves. It's stunning. The problem I have now is simple - it now has a big brother retailing for about $6500 and which I've heard... When does it ever end??? regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2400 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank I have heard a lot of people spending quite a bit on there vinyl setup to get it to sound good and this is one of the reasons I shunned it for so long. I was not going to put something together that didn't sound really good but I also was not going to spend an arm and a leg to make it sound good when to me a decent cd player played through a tube system can sound pretty dam good to me! Some of these cartridges and phono stages I saw really scared me off. Then the gentelmen I bought my 300B amp from showed me a table he had "the denon" and told me the dl-103 cartridge for about $150 is an excelent match plus the fact he had just spent $4000 on his rhea phono stage to only have it better the EAR when he replaced all the tubes and not by much. I fugured ok if I can get this setup to sound really good for less then $1500 then it's probably worth it and if not I don't have to much invested to where I can't recoup it if not. So far I'm very happy with the way it's progressing and fine the usual record anomalies I hate to be very minumal. This table is very easy to use and very quite. With the EAR phono stage it really sounds good, this thing is awsome. So far including about 100 lp's if I buy the phono stage I've got $1500 invested into a system that all components are pretty highly rated and seem to perform upto there expactations. At this point I don't think I could be any happier! Just some fine tuning on the table/cartridge setup and placing into my main system where I just rebuilt an old computer table to use on my TT I think I'm there. Have any little secret tips for setting anything? Anybody? Still got some of the usual to do but allways willing to gather more info from the experts who've gone through this a couple times or so. Anyway's I believe with this phono stage until I decide to maybe move upto a better cartridge "not in the near future" I have all the needed parts. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 577 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Here's a tip: move that turntable away from the speakers! Here's another tip: make sure the table is absolutely level. There are about a thousand other analog tips that you can find on the web, e.g., audio asylum's vinyl faq. The analog scene is a playground for obsessive types. Have you listened to any good LPs? Frank, I ask you the same question. Are there any LPs you recommend for performance and sound quality? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2405 Registered: Dec-03 | 2c I haven't listened to a lot of "different" records yet as I wanted to use the same ones until I got everything setup right. BBUUTT I do like how the police outlandas demoura' disk sounds. Also an older george thourogood sounds quite nice along with a heart lp. More to come later! |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 477 Registered: Sep-04 | Kegger, I get *exactly* where you're coming from, trust me! I am very glad you're enjoying the EAR so much. Tim de Paravicini is generally reckoned as one of very few designers who make really good sensibly priced kit. Two Cents, Blimey, where to start?! There are many LPs out there and many being reissued by the likes of Alto and Speakers Corner in 180gram slabs that are beautifully pressed on really quiet vinyl. Places to look would include: http://www.vivante.co.uk http://www.directdisc.demon.co.uk http://www.classicrecords.co.uk http://www.soulexplosion.co.uk http://www.pandprecords.freeserve.co.uk http://www.vinylrecords.co.uk And for a huge number of online record shops... http://www.moremusic.co.uk/links/uk_shops.htm In the main I use Vivante and Direct Disc (the first two above), but the others look good too, especially if you want stuff that I'm not into...:-) Here's a few records that I use regularly: Friday Night In San Francisco Al Di Meola and John McLaughlin and Paco de Lucia - 3 of the greatest acoustic Flamenco guitarists live on stage for the first time. Sirocco - Paco de Lucia (Flamenco again) If You're Feeling Sinister - Belle and Sebastian Goodbye Yellow Brick Road - Elton John Take Five - Dave Brubeck Quartet Basie Jam - Count Basie Song For My Father - Horace Silver Quintet (your system has to time perfectly otherwise this just becomes boring) Saint-Saens Organ Symphony (no. 3). Mine is the one conducted by Duruffle, but supposedly the Boston Sympony Orchestra conducted by Munch on Living Stereo is meant to be stunning. Decca SXL2312 - Debussy/Ravel LSO conducted by Monteux (my favourite classical album, atmospheric, dramatic, poignant, romantic...lovely). Decca SXL6355 - Albeniz - Suite Espagnola. The second track is an absolute torture track...full of dynamics and beautifully recorded. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 580 Registered: Feb-04 | Frank, Thanks for the recommendations. There are a couple that sound intriguing. I'll have to add them to my list. Are they all reissues or originals? Unfortunately, I'm in the US so I can't take advantage of the UK links you posted. It seems that vinyl is more popular on your side of the pond. Some recent finds I keep returning to are: Stravinsky conducts The Firebird, Petrouchka, and The Rite of Spring (Columbia). If you like this music, these are outstanding, electrifying performances. They are also among the best recorded Columbia classical LPs I've heard. Art of Fugue, Munchinger and the Stuttgart CO (London/Decca). A chamber orchestra provides the right weight to these brilliant pieces imo. Beautifully played on modern instruments and warmly recorded. Both of the above sets are inexpensive used. They would go with me to my desert island. I also look forward to listening to the Speakers Corner reissue of Starkers' set of Bach's cello sonatas that I just ordered. That one put a large dent in my wallet. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3039 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank, Thanks from me, too. Two Cents, Kegger put a link on another thread to a large US vinyl dealer. (Kegger can you repeat it here...?) Probably you can use the dealers Frank listed with confidence, except postage and packing will cost more, a delivery take a little longer. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1803 Registered: Aug-04 | Try this also John. http://store.acousticsounds.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3040 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, My Rantz. For the Berlioz Requiem there, it says "200g vinyl" but then "Vanguard did not utilize the center channel in this multichannel SACD remastering." Confusing. It looks like there are almost no new vinyl pressings of "classical". That even seems to go for Frank's links. I asked in a specialist shop called Harold Moores, in London, and the man said there are none, and it he thinks it will never happen. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1804 Registered: Aug-04 | John Well, I guess that's it then mate - sacd here we come [gtin]. Just for your interest, Acoustic Sounds also deal in second-hand records. They usually send a list on their newsletter. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 587 Registered: Feb-04 | John A., 'It looks like there are almost no new vinyl pressings of "classical".' All of the new classical vinyl are reissues of older performances. Speakers Corner (German), Classic Records (US), and Decca have a relatively large catalog of classical titles. I generally prefer to buy used. Used classical records tend to be in better condition than used pop/rock. Rantz, You're right about the classical labels embracing SACD. They seem to be the strongest supporter of the format. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 479 Registered: Sep-04 | I don't know why it is, but the classical producers always seem to jump first onto new technologies. They were the ones to adopt digital master recordings first and then they were first with CD too. If you listen to an early Deutsche Gramophon digital record or CD, they all sound thin, bright and nasty. Now they're playing with SACD/DVD-A and the music is almost always a disjointed mess. Fabulous in terms of resolution, but hopeless musically. I guess one of the reasons for this is to try to stimulate some interest in the classical market. So few classical albums are being sold now that they'll do anything to try to keep the sales up. I'm just surprised that the classical labels haven't really grabbed the DVD market and produced some decent DVDs with decent features in order to stimulate the opera and ballet public enough to prop up the classical music marketplace. The current availability is shockingly bad. There's an interesting article in the latest HiFi+ magazine (one of the few I read), which discusses the reissue vs original vs new format debate and one of the most interesting mentions is the Antal Dorati Firebird (Mercury Living Presence classic). They had the latest 200g reissue, an original white label disc and the latest SACD. The best by a country mile was the white label, with both the reissue and SACD sounding fairly dire. This reflects my own experiences with some of my records (e.g. Stan Getz The Dolphin original vs Half-Speed Mastered 180g reissue). Just goes to show how important it is to have a sympathetic understanding of the original master in order to be able to create a faithful new reissue. It's true that there are very few - if any - new classical issues of vinyl. Vinyl production seems to be the exclusive preserve of the classical reissue or contemporary music. All the examples I mention above are either good reissues or originals. Certainly, the Dave Brubeck, Friday Night, Horace Silver and the Deccas are all reissues. The rest are originals, but not special, just special to me. I mean, the Saint-Sanes is a Music For Pleasure 3rd generation piece of junk that cost a quid or something! Sounds great! As to delivery, I'm sure the guys I posted would deliver, but I imagine the prices are expensive by comparison to some US-based distributors - and of course there's a huge amount of 2nd hand vinyl available there provided you know where to find it. I'll look out for those discs TC. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3044 Registered: Dec-03 | "Classical" purchasers were "early adopters" of CD, too, if I remember. Also they were keen on "digitally recorded" LPs. There was a time when a small corner of the average large record store had a few CDs, and these were mostly classical, much like SACD today, at least in the shops I know. I do not know what this means. It could be that "classical" buyers are more concerned about factors such background noise and dynamic range. But it is difficult to generalise. Jazz buyers seem to be especially keen on vinyl, if the reviews and new releases are anything to go by. Or perhaps vinyl buyers have more interest in jazz, which is not quite the same thing. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3045 Registered: Dec-03 | We seem to agree, Frank. You are dead right about the quality of some of those early CDs, too. It seems ironical that classical buyers were more interested in convenience, or bought on specs rather than sound quality. Deutsche Grammophon was certainly dire in many cases, including their digitally recorded LPs. You would have thought they would have tended to be conservative; certainly they were, and still are, in artwork and cover design. I well remember the introduction of CD. Magazines like Gramophone had whole special issues on the subject. By the time I moved to CD, in 1988, it was a almost a case of having to. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 481 Registered: Sep-04 | John I was in exactly the same boat and sank into CD in 1990. Ironically, what tipped me over the edge was that Jean Michel Jarre's Waiting For Cousteau album had an extra 20-odd minutes on the CD. I was incensed about this and bought a Rotel RCD-865 (ah those were the days). It's ironic because the extra 20-odd mnutes are just soundscapy rubbish and I never play the album... DG nearly died because of their early adherence to the digital recording and CDs. The quality was so bad that a formerly loyal public left DG in droves. DG accepted their mistake and tried to fix it by launching their much vaunted 4D recording process and reissuing a lot of their material in the nineties which was meant to address the quality issues in their earlier recordings. 4D is better but still isn't anything like as good as the best. This is a great shame since DG draw some of the best performances in the world. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3581 Registered: May-04 | Gentlemen - While no champion of DG (the dirty rotten b@stards) and certainly not a fan of early digital releases on their or most other labels, might I suggest the problem DG had in the late seventy's through the mid ninety's was not so much the recording medium as the recording technique. 120 microphones and a chimp on the mixer did not serve any piece of music well. And that was for a chamber orchestra; the full symphonic works got ridiculous in their spotlighting and pan potting. I honestly have not tried a DG in more than a two decades. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, ... |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 588 Registered: Feb-04 | As much as I dislike the recording quality of DG discs, I can't seem to avoid them. Same goes for Columbia recordings. There are great artists and performances on these labels that are worth suffering through the poor sound quality. Last night I enjoyed Serkins' account of Beethoven's fifth concerto (with Bernstein and the NYPO). The piano sounded too dry and the NYPO at times seemed submerged in the Hudson River, but, boy, the electricity of the performance still comes through. I feel especially bad for Lenny, who was let down consistently by the Columbia engineers and Avery Fisher Hall. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3047 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank, Thank you. Jean Michel Jarre is interviewed in May HiFi News, btw. He comes down against CD; for DVD-A. I have some DG "4D" CDs and they are still dry and artificial-sounding. I think Jan is right; they used microphones to create a sound, not to record one. The oboist, say, seems to rise on a personal platoform, plays his solo in a spotlight, then disappears from view. I have just listened to the 2005 CD re-issue of the 1965 EMI Elgar Cello concerto recording with Barbirolli/Du Pre. ADD. I think it was also spot-miked, but at least the engineers did not fiddle with the balance. Extraordinary. You are so close to that young lady's intensity of skill and passion that it is embarrassing; you have to look away, in fear of the thoughts that is summons up. No wonder it is a recording legend. Wish I owned the LP, to compare. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3586 Registered: May-04 | 2c - Picking a DG disc because of the artist(s) is like watching the Texas Rangers because of the Center Fielder. They are crap no matter who is playing. (The exception is Nolan Ryan who could make a T-Ball game interesting.) There are too many good recordings of the same works to have to put up with DG's quality. It's like voting Republican to get g@y marriage outlawed and then finding out George wants to screw you on Social Security. I believe the phrase is "against your own interests". You condone the bad sound by continually purchasing bad sound. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 590 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, I get the Texas Rangers/baseball analogy. But I'd rather watch Nolan Ryan pitch a no-hitter from the centerfield bleachers with binoculars rather than watch Al Lopez pitch junk from a seat behind home plate. In the same way, I'd rather listen to Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven's 5th on DG rather than Ozawa's B5 on Telarc or just about any other conductor on another label. Hey, that's just me. I can't relate to the Republican analogy though. You lost me there. Jo |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2423 Registered: Dec-03 | I just had a giant post that I freakin hit some G A Y , A S S button and lost it! I'm so freakin pi$$ED I can't even think straight! So this will be quick and stupid because I'm not typing all that crap again! Sorry for the rant! And making myself type more by explaining it! GEEEZZ!! ------------------------------------------------------------ Anyways I picked up a micro seiki TT with an older Grado green cartridge on it. In good shape both cartridge and table, very cheap! The Grado seamed dull and sloppy on the seiki but I thought the Denon sounded a little bright and thin at times so I put the Grado on the Denon table. First impressions quite nice, the combo is sweet and full bodied with great texture but still all the detail! And no more brightness! Then I decided to put the Denon cartridge on the seiki! Well that combo is now very good also! I figured at least 90% of the TT sound came from the cartridge, it looks like I'm finding something other then that though. More later if anyones interested! By the way this is still a learning process for me and things may change as I go! Pic of the table!  |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 484 Registered: Sep-04 | John A, The DuPre was reissued on vinyl a couple of years back. You should be able to find it at any one of the sites I mentioned above. I have the reissue and it is excellent. I've heard the reissued CD and it's not as good, but then I don't rate the CD chain as highly as the vinyl chain I was using anyway. Some DG stuff, particularly the 50's and 60's vinyl, was beautifully recorded. I have some gorgeous pieces which are just sublime. It's when they started getting clever with spot mikes etc that things really went downhill, along with classical sales... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3071 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank, Thanks! "Reissued on vinyl" - by whom? Not EMI, surely? The CD I have has the number "EMI Classics 7243 5 56806 2 4". I will see what I can find from the links you provided. I have a DG Amadeus Qt/Leister Brahms clarinet quintet LP, from the 60s, which I think is a very good recording. Then I have a Beethoven 9 Karl Bohm/VPO LP set on DG "digital recording" which is appalling. This fits with what you say. I have never liked the sound on any of the DG CDs I have. You wrote in January: "As much as DVD-A and SCAD are technically superior to CD I honestly cannot differentiate in sound quality". This was on DVD-A vs. SACD. You are not alone in this: HiFi News has a running correspondence, with both views expressed. Kegger and others here whose opinions are worth knowing are clear in their view that SACD offers greatly improved sound quality - I have been asking them on other threads. I am wondering whether to move to SACD, or get a better CD player. I wonder if you have changed your opinion on CD vs SACD or not. The linked thread there would be better than here, if you are able to comment: I do not wish to divert this excellent thread, started by Kegger. Kegger, I read these posts mostly as the e-mail notifications, so I had not noticed that really fine photograph until today. Thanks! I recognise that turntable, for some reason. It must have been around at the time I was looking for turntables. Hope you understand my reasons for asking Frank about SACD. Jan Vigne is another respected contributor who, I think, is not convinced in the way that you and My Rantz are. From my point of view, still never having heard SACD, it is not an open-and-shut case! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2433 Registered: Dec-03 | John you should know by now that my threads can go anywhere and I won't care. Also if it makes you feel better to ask more people about sacd, that's cool with me. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I appologize for the language earlier on my post for anyone who mayb be affended. Anyways back to the TT stuff. Anyone have any thoughts on the benz micro l2 cartridge, frank, anyone. what is it's "sound" or other attributes as I have a line on one? Fairly inexpensive considering the original price! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2434 Registered: Dec-03 | By the way John you saw both pics right? the denon and and the micro? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3072 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, I saw the Denon, Kegger. I guessed wrong about the make! No offence taken. Not by me. About apologies - I just try to avoid steering threads off the road. and often fail. Going back to phono stages, Icon Audio, who make tube amps in UK, suggest a Project Phono Box as a cheap add-on to their amps, but you are in a different category with EAR, or course. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3073 Registered: Dec-03 | "of course" of course. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 599 Registered: Feb-04 | John A. "Then I have a Beethoven 9 Karl Bohm/VPO LP set on DG "digital recording" which is appalling." The Karl Bo(umlaut)hm, VPO Beethoven 9 is a digital recording? I have his Beethoven cycle with the VPO on DG from the early 70s on vinyl, before the bad days of digital recording. The sound quality is very good as are the performances. Could we be talking about the same recordings? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3075 Registered: Dec-03 | 2c, Thank you. Karl Bohm. Ouch! I think we are indeed talking about different recordings. The one I have was recorded and released early 1980s, not later that 1983. It was a new recording, but Bohm had died before it was released, and DG cashed in with a cover portrait of the famous maestro, hands clasped as if in prayer, with a concert hall spotlight suggesting a call from above. I thought it was cynical and tasteless, actually. Then the liner notes had a "tribute" to his distinguished recording career that was actually a DG advert. Anyway, that is how I remember! I do not have it here or I would give the number. BTW it was a kind gift from a good friend, to both Mrs A and me, on an occasion for an "Ode to Joy". So I have felt guilty about not liking that recording for many years! In contrast, the Solti/CSO Decca/London version which I bought myself, also with sentimental associations, but earlier ones, is an analogue masterpiece, IMHO. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 487 Registered: Sep-04 | John The Barbirolli/DuPre is very famous indeed, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm not sure who reissued it but it may have been Speakers Corner. Like I said - not sure. I've had it since it came out. I'll try to find out who did it for you. (In other words, I'll try to remember before anything else drives it out of my mind when I get home...) Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3077 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank, Thanks. No worries. I'll keep an eye open. I am not such a fan that I want two versions, but it would be interesting to compare. I have an LP version, too, but a different recording and performance. All the best. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 490 Registered: Sep-04 | Damn! I forgot... Will try to remember tonight. Got someone coming over to look at and possibly buy my speakers. Perhaps that'll jog my memory. Growing old is just great isn't it?! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3080 Registered: Dec-03 | Again, no problem, Frank. As the saying goes; growing old is not so bad, when you consider the alternative. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3617 Registered: May-04 | Frank - As you grow older, memory is the second item to go. I just cannot remember what the first is. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1823 Registered: Aug-04 | It's uhm . . . |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 492 Registered: Sep-04 | John I much prefer the alternative... Jan, now, let me see...mmm...nothing...sorry, who was talking??? Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3082 Registered: Dec-03 | "I much prefer the alternative..." But we'd all miss your posts, Frank... |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 495 Registered: Sep-04 | My memory was jogged, my speakers are sold (teary eyed I am now). I actually can't remember who issued it. I *think* it was EMI themselves just before the Hayes plant shut down. I played it on the weekend again to remind myself of what it was like and it is really very good indeed. Not sure if it's 180gm or 165gm. If it is EMI, then it would be 165gm at most (EMI didn't have the stampers to make 180gm vinyl). I'll try to get confirmation from a man who would know but I'm fairly sure I'm right. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3100 Registered: Dec-03 | I could not sell any of my speakers, Frank. I've had them too long. There must be a Country song about losing speakers. I sold a pair I'd had for about two years, once. Solarvox, from Comet. They were rubbish. I moved on to KEF. Not wishing to derail the thread - what did you sell, and what replaced them? |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 500 Registered: Sep-04 | I sold a beautiful pair of Audio Note AN/E-SP on dedicated 4-pillar stands. I've had them for just over 10 years and I will miss them enormously when they go. The very nice buyer couldn't take them home with him at the time - I await his call to pick them up. I haven't got another pair of speakers to replace them yet. I'm considering my options. Very high on my list are two speakers - Totem Mani-2 Signatures and Naim SL2s. The Totems have recently been upgraded by Totem. I've also not heard the Naims at home yet, so it's going to be an interesting few weeks. I'm also selling my amp (Chord CPA4000, SPM1200E). I may simply replace it with a new Chord (mine was new in August 2003) or I may elect to go full Naim with something like a NAP252/NAC300. I'm simply not sure which way to go right now. Simply replacing the Chord would allow me to buy the Totems and upgrade my sources too. It's a quandary, nice one to have but still a quandary. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 501 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh - if you're wondering why I would simply replace an amp, don't forget I'm a part-time dealer. This means I get preferntial rates which mean I get to keep my system fresh and new over time. And someone gets a well loved piece of kit at a very good rate...! Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 502 Registered: Sep-04 | Thread well and truly derailed. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3103 Registered: Dec-03 | Interesting, though! Kegger is generous about threads going off topic. So that is how you know so much about quality audio, Frank. In contrast, my turnround times are usually measured in decades. My speaker recommendation, for what it's worth, is: Quad Electrostatic Loudspeaker 63. After a short life, that thread is now archived. If you would like to follow, one could start a new thread with the same title, and link back. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2444 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank I envy your position. In the spirit of the original thread intent "not that it matters though" I had recently tried the grado green cartridge on my system and found I liked it. Many had told me the denon was better and give it some break in time so I did and sure enough it broke! When I first went back to use it I found some greenish gunk all over it, cleaned then reset it up and used it until I noticed the top enp disapearing. I took off the arm to inspect the cartridge to find the stylus was bent and full of fuzz, then I broke it, wwhhhhaaaa wwwhhaaaaa. so now I'm back to having 1 cartridge for 2 tables and the grado sounds pretty darn good. So what next, I wouldn't mind having a better cartridge and putting the grado on the second table, so what to buy? someone has offered me a benz micro l2 cartridge at a nice price from a friend with less than 100 hours on it. Any thoughts on that cartridge? Other cartridges to consider, new or slightly used for say $300US or less? I like good bass with a warm/inviting midrange with good but not bright high end. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3104 Registered: Dec-03 | Brief return to derailment: Frank, I just checked out those Chord amplifiers. Cough. 2 x 800 W RMS into 8 Ohms...? The Quad recommendation is withdrawn! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3698 Registered: May-04 | John - Never buy a Ferrari, it'll go 180 m.p.h. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3105 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, I understand, and agree, Jan. OK, Frank, recommendation restored! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 605 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, That's a sad tale. I had my six-year nephew over this weekend. First thing he did when he saw my stereo was grab the tonearm and start twisting. Aaargh!!! I nearly had a heart attack. Thank god for the unipivot arm. I now count that as a major advantage of the unipivot design--tolerance for twisting my six year olds. It's uncanny how kids go straight for the weakest point of a system. Anyway, back to your question. For an affordable cartridge, I wholeheartedly recommend the Clearaudio Aurum Classic woodbody. It has a full detailed sound, although not the last word in resolution especially in the upper frequencies, and has good bass. I enjoyed it while I had my regular cartridge out for repair. It's really good for rock music. It retails for $200 new. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2448 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey thanks for the recomendation there 2c and very lucky for you on the 6 year old! You bring up a good point I've heard people say "good for rock music" and that's what I need. Don't still have the cartridge do you? Or anyone else have a used cartridge for sale? |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 606 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, I still have the Clearaudio cartridge as my back-up just in case of a mishap with my regular cartridge. Have you checked Audiogon? I remember seeing one for sale or for auction recently. Best of luck. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 507 Registered: Sep-04 | Kegger I suggest the Dynavector 10x5 which is a high output moving coil cartridge. Brilliant. Should retail for around the $300 mark - I think! John, Not sure where you got your stats from. The 1200E is 350w/ch into 8 ohms, 620w/ch into 4 ohms and 750w/ch into 2 ohms. And yet it doesn't sound like a powerful sledgehammer of a beast...unless you're playing a recording of a powerful sledgehammer of a beast...! The Quads would work beautifully (I used to sell 'em), but they wouldn't fit in the room. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3110 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank, Sorry, I was looking at the12000, not the 1200E, on www.chordelectronics.co.uk/ I found they fitted fine, if brought in sideways.... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2451 Registered: Dec-03 | 2C "I still have the Clearaudio cartridge as my back-up just in case of a mishap with my regular cartridge." I can definatley relate to that but had to ask just in case! Frank thanks for your input as well! Will look that up. Oh frank how about these for yu! |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 514 Registered: Sep-04 | Fitted sideways? That's a new design of headphone now isn't it?  The 12000 is nearly the largest amp Chord makes (hey, it needs two electric sockets for goodness sake). The largest is the 14000 monoblock which is basically the size of two 12000s - and even more powerful than a stock 12000. We have one customer who has bought a pair of 14000s. He also borrowed a pair of B&W 800Ds (yes the new diamond tweeter ones) and promptly blew the midrange units... Kegger, Thanks for the suggestion but I'm fairly sure my wife would kill me... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3116 Registered: Dec-03 | "Fitted sideways?" To get them through the door, I mean... Unlike these tacky B&W 800Ds, the Quads have an overload protection circuit which means the amp goes before they do. I am not sure I'd try it with Chord 14000s, though! Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 522 Registered: Sep-04 | Turns out there was a problem with one of the crossovers. B&W replaced them within a couple of days. The speakers were so good he bought them anyway... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3126 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Frank. Credit to B&W. That customer must like his music loud. Wonder what he was playing. Perhaps a thread on "music that blew up my system"......?! |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 525 Registered: Sep-04 | Although he does like it loud, this was a manufacturing fault. Regards, Frank. |
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