Archive through April 05, 2005
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 886 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, I tried to add a bit of my own wit to this thread, but I wound up laughing so hard that I quit trying. Still chortling. . .good posts! "Muckin' faps?" Tsk, tsk, SM. . . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3303 Registered: May-04 | " ... more corners ahead and you know what they say about the next one!" Someone has waxed the floor and forgot to tell you! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3304 Registered: May-04 | That started out to be flucking foor, but made no sense even when I had the Latin pig read it. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1634 Registered: Aug-04 | Kegger loves his tucking fube amps, we hear good things of mucking FcIntoshes, many people say suck Foney for their conspiracies, juckin Folidas are sweet according to Rick, we know kuckin Flipsch just kick a$$, and according to John A, LCD TV'a are fruly tucked. SM wants another bucking foyfriend and pronto, Jan thinks his old rucking fodgers are the greatest and Larry is already thinking about his next muckin feal. 2 Cents wants to know more about tube ruckin folling and Sem hopes Pucking Fink Floyd get back together. Don enjoys playing his pucking fiano and we can assume Asimo is playing a cd of his favourote tuckin fenor. Now, I hope that gets it out of everyone's sucking fystem! |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 259 Registered: Jan-05 | Foyfriends are the buckin' fest! Except for the buckin' Frazilian music that's playing right now...that's even more auckin fwesome....er, huh? Yay, Tarheels! Now I have a reason to watch the Final Four! Yuck Feah! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 544 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz I don't know fhat the wuck your're talking about. Did you know Clapton wants you to drink a lot when you listen to him wield his axe. Right now, I'm listening to Blind Faith and it's never sounded so good. Oh yeah, have been drinking lots of scotch.  and counting... |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 545 Registered: Feb-04 | Hey you're not Rantz! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 546 Registered: Feb-04 | SM, I'm gonna post a joke for you about bfs in the Jokey Dogs thread. You might of heard it if you listened to car talk this a.m. Btw what's a tarheel? Is that like pansywaist? |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 547 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz, Ginger Baker kicks a s s on "Do What You Like"! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2942 Registered: Dec-03 | Found we have a region I copy of "Finding Nemo" with audio and video THX set-up. Thanks, Jan. The video set-up instructions applied. Great improvement. At least for that DVD. They flunk it a bit with "colour" and "hue", saying adjust "colour" setting until red does not "bleed", and "hue" until cyan looks really cyan, and magenta looks really magenta. Well, thanks, THX. Still, a useful little addition. Wish more DVDs had that. And I still wish stations broadcast a test card. In the test clip, youngest daughter decides she'd like to watch "Finding Nemo". Yet again. And does so. She likes the new TV. that's something. We actually had strong brand loyalty to Sony, for TVs, Jan. They also made the "Trinitron" monitors for the first computers I ever liked. Our original 14 " TV is still in good working order, except for the sound. I always export the sound line, anyway. The 28" Sony CRT in the old place was not bad, but huge, heavy, and flickery. I think 28" is too big for a 50 Hz TV. I have to admit the LCD is better. Except it won't do black. Not at all. With all the THX contrast and brightness set-up correctly, black is grey. I think that is a problem inherent in LCD, and we shall just have to live with it. The big, old Sony had various pre-sets for "movies", "sport", "current affairs" etc. That began the end of my appreciation of Sony. I think it is absurd to imagine there are different video settings for different sorts of content; just as it is absurd to imagine there are different tone control settings for different genres of music; even iPod thinks that. It is a big mistake, in my view, and a total failure to understand how we see and hear. [I do believe there are huge consequences: this leads off-topic, but these are the BAD GUYS; they promote self-delusion, and profit from our van ity and willingness to fool ourselves]. I always imagined a dispute between Sony engineers and Sony market researchers, and the marker researchers won. Then, the way they promote these "Wega" systems, as the "church" "stadium" surround delay/reverb effects. They have lost the plot. I imagine: Market researcher to engineer: "Just give the lady what she wants". Engineer: "What she wants is impossible. No imaginable technology can deliver that. The problem is with her". Market researcher "Never mind; just make her think she is getting what she wants. That's all that matters: our only goal is flog TVs, burn Matsushita, and return profits to share-holders". Human resources to engineer: "Don't give us cr_p about things being impossible. Our product must create the illusion of satisfying dreams and desires, no matter how irrational they may seem to you. And why do you think your opinion is so gaddam important? Who do you think you are? Do as marker researcher says, or you're fired". Or course, that is not in the original, colloquial Japanese. Anyway back to the topic of the thread, and another concession to Jan. THX audio set-up on "Finding Nemo". introduction. See this thread, especially May 2004. Methods. Stereo only to play Dolby Digital AC-3 5.1. NAD T533 DVD-A player set to "center: off"; surround: off"; "subwoofer:off". Line out from Left and Center analogue outputs to Sony stereo power amp. Speakers: 2 x Quad ESL 63. Results. Test tones. Left and right channels: perfect. Center channel: perfect. Completely the same frequency distribution and volume as the left and rights, but coming from straight ahead, with the direction just as precisely defined. Awesome. I never heard the center sound as good when we had a center speaker. Right and left surrounds. Well, direction not as clearly-defined as with real surround speakers. But still, an uncanny sense of the sound coming from behind, plus exactly the same timbre and volume as for the front channels. Sub: can't hear a thing. But who needs it. Either the player was not sending it to L and R, or the THX LFE test tone is below the ESL's roll-off. Conclusion. Yes, surround sound has something to offer, even for music. But it is marginal, and less important that getting true stereo with time- and phase-coherence, and "The closest approach to the original sound". Recommended speakers for surround sound: four Quad ESLs. A bit of a low WAF there, and a bit expensive. Add a small sub for earthquakes etc, and away you go. Discussion. I am glad I have finally reached a conclusion on this important subject. Any views? How was "Evita", 2c? |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 549 Registered: Feb-04 | John A.- Thanks for asking. Parents enjoyed it tremendously. Which was the whole point of the evening. They've left now and I'm decompressing with the Art of Fugue and some more Scotch. Sorry, Rantz, Bach trumps Clapton as far as the whole God thing. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 550 Registered: Feb-04 | Die Kunst der Fuge. Munchinger. Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra. Decca vinyl. Thumbs up. John A., Sorry about being so off topic on this thread. I'm afraid I've become a 2-ch guy for music. Movies are still good in 5.1 |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2946 Registered: Dec-03 | 2c, "Bach trumps..." Everyone. I think Jack Bruce said that. Along with so many. Your remark is not off-topic at all. It is the whole point, as far as I recall. Jan....? BTW London traffic is OK. It is usually going so slowly you can come to no harm. One problem with the Art of Fugue is that anything goes as regards instrumentation etc: he did not specify. I have Musica Antiqua Koln but I think they are in a race, and it is on the dreaded DG, and CD. Not recommended. I heard clips a of great version of the Musical Offering in a review on the radio recently. HANSSLER CD 92.133 http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/cdreview/pip/tapvy/ I do not know if the same people have recorded the Art of Fugue. Art of Fugue, in stereo, on vinyl, through a tube amp. That sounds like a political statement. You are a true "Old Dog". If you have a second, remind me about your speakers. 2c, that is the perfect antidote to having to listen to anything by Andrew Lloyd Weber. I salute you, sir! Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1635 Registered: Aug-04 | Oh brother! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2949 Registered: Dec-03 | "Clapton is Bach". I've never seen that painted on walls! Mind, Clapton has about 265 years to prove he is equal or better.... I know who'd win any improvision contest, hands down, even a 12-bar! All we need is time travel. There is a nice one in Dr Who episode 2, where the guests bring out ancient antiquities to honour the planet Earth, which is about to be destroyed. A huge gleaming "art deco"-type juke-box is wheeled out with great reverence. The MC says "This was called 'iPod'". |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 260 Registered: Jan-05 | LOL |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 887 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - "Huzzah" to all your comments - if you remember them this ayem? Scotch=short-term memory loss. (grin) |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 888 Registered: Oct-04 | I second SM's comment. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 993 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, Allow me to take you in a new direction if I may for awhile. Let me ask the question. Do you really love music, or just the way it sounds? Please think about this and respond. I'm working on a theory, and need your input. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 889 Registered: Oct-04 | Rick: for myself, sir - I love music. I also love the way it sounds - live. I try to copy that sound whenever possible in my home. I usually fail. Though I'm getting closer. One cannot love music without loving the way it sounds, I think - for music is sound. IMHO |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2354 Registered: Dec-03 | I think I'm in the same boat "or mind" as larry! I was just telling 2 friends yesterday that came by "I believe" that my system is finally complete, it sounds just right to me. Very easy to listen to but kicks! Now that I have my system where I want it, all I want to do is listen to music. WWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe what finally pushed it over the top was that all the mods I've done have broken in now and I went all around the room including the ceiling treating all of the "hot spots" so to speak for room reflections. I even cover both my tv's with towels when I'm listening to music, It seems to work very well everything is smooth! I believe I can stop tweaking for now and wait for the next project, which I think will start in about a week or so. Look out kiddies! LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3313 Registered: May-04 | 2c - "Btw what's a tarheel? Is that like pansywaist?" I'll leave the sporting allusions to the more attuned members on the forum, but I believe you have your insults confused. Since PW is not, by definition, a strictly sporting term, might I suggest another Old Dog lesson in vocabulary, punctuation and generally non useful items. If you were to suggest to some one they are: 1) "a pansywaist", or, 2) "a pantywaste", which would you consider more insulting? I go with the latter tops the former. " ... I'm decompressing with the Art of Fugue and some more Scotch. Sorry, Rantz, Bach trumps Clapton as far as the whole God thing." In my experience, Bach trumps most if you are looking for the moments when God is being quite benevolent to mankind. E.C. still has the edge when you are at one of those moments when God has just informed you of your existence as a dung beetle in the whole scheme of everything else. The latter tops the former. And, of course, we have to consider most anything sounds closer to God after another Scotch, or two. ********* John - I'm trying to be more helpful than Mr. Lucas. I'm holding up a magenta colored card in my right hand and a cyan colored card in my left hand. Just compare your TV's picture to these. Red bleed is a matter of the picture being overdriven to show well in the stores. Sony's are nototious for this problem, that's why you have to back off color and hue more on a Sony than any other TV. (Hitachi has now taken over as the overdriven color champion.) An LCD should have less red bleed than any other technology for a TV. Most sets won't do "black". The closest almost any TV will get to true black is a very dark charcoal. It has to do with power supply more than anything else. As with all electronics, power supply is the most important item. Get it right and you probably have the gumption, if not the skill, to get everything else correct. It is why old Quad and old Mac still works so well. I always suggested to my clients the best way to begin choosing a good TV was to take all the color out of the picture and judge it just on a B&W picture. If the set can't get that part right, it can't get anything else right. The largest problems with most sets is the inablility to do real black or white. Both require lots of power supply and both require very good color mixing. Usually a set will display whites as either yellow or blue tinged. It again makes the picture "pop" in a store, but is like a cheap amplifier that creates listener fatigue. Bad B&W will eventually wear you down. Power supply problems are why many sets cannot be adjusted to IFC standards. Sony lost a lot when they had to let the international patents expire on the "Trinitron" tube. They still make very good sets, but have given up their dominance to a new generation of manufacturers who market TV's rather than design and build TV's. "Sports", "Cinema 1", "Cinema 2", "News" (never understood that one), etc., have less to do with not understanding how we hear and see and more to do with completely understanding how Americans, and thus the rest of the world, buy something. Glad to hear you understand how stereo can produce a signal that seems to come from behind you. Unfotunately it requires a signal that is time and phase coherent. Not many of those out there in over the processed recordings they want us to buy. If I remember correctly, the THX sub signal is centered at 50Hz. If you heard nothing, that is probably an indication the player didn't send a signal. "Your remark is not off-topic at all. It is the whole point, as far as I recall. Jan....?" It is the unipoint, the isolationist point, the infinitesimal point form which all things diverge. And diverge. And diverge. ***************** Rick - Yes and yes. There are times where the sound is the only requirement. I often go to sleep, when sleep will come, with music playing. Music is wallpaper. It's playing in the background now but I have not been listening to it as anything more than rhythmic sound. Other times I listen intently to the music itself. Sometimes, depending on the quantity of Chivas, I listen to music and then drift back to listening to sound; and so on back and forth. Somewhat on that subject, the back room is nearing completion. To add to my procrastination in actually doing the work required to get everything done, I have chosen to listen to music in the room the past few days to determine how I want to set things up when the moment comes. I would like to say I'm very glad Frank Mcintosh was alive and designing audio while tubes were around. And how glad I am that Aaron Copland wrote music in the 20th century. Experimentation leads me to offer the suggestion to anyone wishing to get the best out of their speakers to try a position 1/3 out into the room. My speakers will apparently be positioned on the short wall in this room and sound best at 7' out into a 21' long room. By coincidence, I tried them at the 1/3 point in the height of the room. The bass from the 3/5A's is outstanding; the drums in Telarc's "Fanfare for the Common Man" are suprising in their power and extension to the point of snapping your head back. I've not heard the Rogers sound this good before. It is impossible to think this speaker has a roll off that begins at 70Hz. Everything I've put through them has been phenomenal. Only when I compare the Rogers to a speaker with truly deep bass extension is there a noticeable roll off when I go back to the 4 1/2" driver. The tubes I'm running in the Audible Illusions place a sound stage that begins about 5' back from the plane of the speakers and pushes the back and side walls out of the way to extend a wide, deep soundstage that I've only heard a few times from other systems. It allows much more near field listening than I could previously permit. The listening position a few feet from the speakers provides more than enough detail and dynamics to satisfy my needs. Elvis, Patsy and Paul McCartney are life sized in front of me. Contrary to popular opinion, God is not everywhere. He is standing, centered, in front of me when he performs "Layla" and "Coc@ine". Not every speaker likes near field listening positions (the Angelus do not unfortunately), but anyone with small monitor type speakers should give this a try. In this position I have the 3/5A's on their side, tweeters to the outside and placed with their baffles straight ahead, not toed-in as John prefers. (Give this a try, John, flat, full frequency response is not necessarily going to come only with the speakers aimed at your ears.) The 1/3 positioning into the room has long been advocated by many speaker designers as the best location for bass extension and smoothness. No matter what speaker you own, I would suggest strongly that you get out the tape measure and give this position a try. In my new listening room this set up is a definite winner. I hope it works well for anyone who gives it a try. ************* Finally, I would like to raise a bit of concern about the passing of the Pope. He was a truly great man whether you agreed with all his positions or not. But I suspect some sort of foul play might be the cause of his passing. What I mean is an 84 year old man with Parkinson's, who has been shot twice, has arthritis and heart problems, has had a tracheotomy and a feeding tube - but is otherwise in good health - that man just doesn't drop over dead. Do they? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2355 Registered: Dec-03 | Unfortunatly Jan in my room which is 15' X 24' and doing surround with a set of doors on the left side I can't do the 1/3 speaker position and mine don't like a near field listening position. about the closest I can get to my speakers is about 9' I'm currently at 11' right in the middle of the front and rear speakers. fronts are 4' from the wall behind them and 2.5' from the sidewall. plus my v shaped couch is positioned so the side doors open 1 in front and 1 in back of the couch and it's the only way that thing fits but to me it's just right. No I believe I have my room setup about as best as I can given my requirements. I get a very wide but not as deep soundstage, my depth is about 3' behind the speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2356 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes the pope is very unfortunate but as you say he did make it through quite a lot. I just hope the one who takes over can do him justice! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 995 Registered: Dec-03 | I asked the question because I have never been able to listen to music as background wallpaper. I find it distracting to whatever task I am trying to do, and have to stop, so I can listen and concentrate on the music. I almost always prefer to listen alone, because any outside noise, or casual conversation, distracts from the performance for me. Does anyone else feel this way? On the passing of the Pope. I choose not to mourn, but rather celebrate the incredible journey of his life. He was a truly remarkable man. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3317 Registered: May-04 | The Catholic Church has turned another corner. Shall we all hope no has waxed the floor? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3318 Registered: May-04 | How about, "no one has waxed the floor". |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 996 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Your speaker positioning makes perfect sense to me for nearfield monitors. Did you try pulling your listening position in to about 5'-6'? I think you will be startled at the result. Are your speakers still on the floor? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2951 Registered: Dec-03 | I will try some change of position and angle for the Quads, Jan. We all share one smallish living room at present. Rick, I agree. If there is music playing, I either want to listen, or to get rid of it, so I can do whatever else is competing with it for my attention. I do no understand "background music". This is not advancing age; I have always been this way. I am alone, in this respect, in my family. For the others, listening to music counts as not doing anything. I think it was Mark Twain who said that music while you eat is an insult to both the cook and the violinist. Heigh-ho. it takes all sorts to make a world. I vaguely recall the demise of the last pope. And the previous one, a few months before that. There was more scope for conspiracy theories there, I thought. I am not qualified to comment on these issues. As regards the musical shoot-out, I think it was Carl Sagan who thought Bach's music should be sent in Voyager whatever as the most conclusive evidence that intelligent life had existed on the planet from whence it came. But, he said, it might not be the best choice, since we should surely not wish them to think we were boasting. Again, no-one has said that about the other guy, to my knowledge. "Clapton is Eric" is not saying a lot. |
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Silver Member Username: SimplymcintoshPost Number: 261 Registered: Jan-05 | I prefer to have music in my life as frequently as possible. Some days that means sitting in an optimal listening spot in the living room attentively listening to the arrangements and the minutiae of the performance. Some days that means sitting in an optimal listening spot in the living room attentively listening to the sounds coming from my stereo and marveling at the evolution that has taken place over the years but, especially, in the past year. Some days that means standing in the living room and pretending I'm Patsy Cline. Or, Aimee Mann. Or, Mahalia Jackson. At work, I have a pair of Sennheiser headphones chosen specifically for their ability to shut out noise. When I have finished with my phone commitments and have time to do research, I put on the headphones, tune out my colleagues and tune into music. It becomes, to a degree, background music but it helps me focus on the task at hand. Still, I'm usually aware of the melodies and rhythms and often take a break away from my task to look up the info of a piece which caught my attention. Sometimes, like right now, I just want the music of silence. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1636 Registered: Aug-04 | I/we listen to music intently, casually and like Jan, as wallpaper when involved in some task. If one likes music, one has to like the sound of music (with the exception of the movie sountrack). Do I like how the sound of our music sounds? Most definately - both in surround and stereo, with a preference on the former with hi-res formats. I cannot back away from this viewpoint no matter how well I can become involved in stereo (regardless of format) especially when listening through the 602's which I consider ammazing big little wonders. Positioning: we have a room approximately 6.5 mts X 7.5 mts. Almost 4 mts X 6 mts is used for TV/audio front and back speaker postioning and this half of the room is opposite the glass sliders and windows. The largest glass panel in the audio section is the plasma screen situated between the JBL's and under the B&W center. All three of these speakers are forward of the screen and the mains are forward of all equipment and furniture that have their place somewhere between (they are about one metre out from the brick wall). The main speakers are also toed to the center listening position and create an equilateral triangle of approximately 12 feet. The rear B&W's are toed in a little but not directly at us and sit behind and to the side of our listening position. They sit about 6 feet from the rear wall (almost a third of the room length). This entertainment section of the room has a sloping ceiling whereas the other part is beneath our open mezzanine bedroom floor. I must try covering the plama screen as Kegger suggests for music listening. The long side wall is gyprock (I think you call it sheetrock), the rear wall is timber, front brick and the floor is slate. No rug! Do we need one? Naturally, we listen to stereo recordings often and of late have also been using the rear 602's for this. We plonk ourselves on the end of our coffee table to face them and find they have incredible imaging and a deep soundstage - probably because they are well away from the rear wall. They do sound wuckin funderfull. Yesterday, as we do most Sunday afternoons when not involved in other matters of life, we fill our glasses, sit close together, both out of a mutual deep, eternal love (32 yrs is eternal isn't it?) and to claim as much as of audio sweet as we can, and get lost in the music. No matter how close to sublime stereo can be, for us both, hi-res surround is simply it - in either format. But truly it's all great! Rick - for really and truly getting into the music, yes being home alone is the way. Although I enjoy nothing better than sharing the listening position with my beloved, the temptation of distractions is often too great. As far as E.C. being god. Nope! As a great fan of Eric's, I still think there are many artists out there who surpass his talents - most just need to be 'found.' Watched the Manchurian Candidate remake with Denzel Washington and Meryl Streep last night. Good acting, thought provoking script. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1637 Registered: Aug-04 | "of audio sweet" should be "of audio sweet spot" |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2952 Registered: Dec-03 | Good to read that. Thanks, all. Thinking about it, the other one of us who really listens is 17-yr-old son. He does it mostly on his iPod. He had a pair of Sennheiser noise-guard headphones, they were very good, but he left them out one day, and the dog chewed them. I apologise for turning this thread to video set-up. I have worked out that you have to turn on "component video out" on the player. It is better than SCART. I think you are spared "SCART" in US. It is the daftest system. I understand that, if I am really keen on color, I can obtain some THX test blue eye-glasses, "spectacles", whatever. Meanwhile, I am still not sure when red stops bleeding. I have looked carefully at the cards you are holding Jan. I am still not so completely sure, but I thank you, and please put them down, now. That is quite enough cyan and magenta for the time being. Returing to audio. The THX set-up on Pixar etc DVDs is very interesting. Thanks again, J.V. I always thought it was a pointless gimmick. Not so. I have just discovered it has phase checks between different pairs of speakers. It is very instructive to run it, and especially in stereo-only. I really did not know you could get such a clear sense of sound coming from behind you in stereo, and I do not understand how it works, I have to say, Jan. I can even hear phase differences between a front speaker and a non-existent rear speaker. I can hear the non-existent rear speakers together when they are in phase, but there is no sound at all when they are out of phase. There must be a clue there as to how it works. Whether this all works best with the brilliant phase coherence of the Quads, I do not know. Instead of me lugging out my old speakers, to compare, please, someone else have a go. Unfortunately putting the Quads a third of the way down our room is impossible. There is a great storage heater on one wall at that point. Anyway, that half of the room is for sitting in, leaving a route through the other half to the kitchen, and as a dining area. Daughter with digital camera is home and I will try to borrow it to take a pic, or get her to. My original Kodak 2.7 megapixel is kaput, although only a couple of years old, and in the other place. All you nice guys are clearly saner than I at the moment, writing about music, and not the audio gear. I know we all have our different tastes etc. I can listen with interest to practically anything. What I find is that some music goes on being interesting almost without limit to the number of times I listen. EC and JSB are both there, for me. Other stuff doesn't. Like "pop" of the ABBA variety, and most C&W I have heard. Bach, in contrast, just goes on and on, and the simpler the better. The solo cello sonatas are a case in point. It is as if he could see into some other world. I also get that sort of feeling from some jazz, blues, etc. Where Mr C. excels is in phrasing, and always being just predictable enough to have an idea of where the music is going, but full of ingenuity and surprise at how he gets there. I must get some of his stuff in my collection. I know it sounds pretentious, but I am sure JSB must have been a similar kind of improviser. One thing they both do brilliantly is "suspensions" - meaning keeping a melodic phrase going, even just single note, over a shifting harmonic base. You then see the phrase, or note, as if from a different point of view; sometimes two, or three, or more. It is the same, but different. Like some of the nice jokes on the thread MR started. The fun is in seeing the same thing from a totally different place. I am tempted to say all great music uses suspensions, but it is late, I am rambling, and doubtless someone will correct me, and off we'll go again talking about what is, and is not, a matter of opinion. For my money you still can't beat a good fugue. No innuendo, please. A fugue is like suspensions squared, each entry like a wave that brings in new light, colour, and perspective. Guys like Eric don't do fugues, I think. Pity. Bet he could, if he tried. The only "Rock" fugue that occurs to me, right now, is that great guitar intro to "I feel fine" by the Beatles. It probably isn't really, but it is close. Unlike Eric, JSB was a jobbing composer, too: he had to write stuff down so others could play it. That is why it lasts. If all we had were recordings of Bach doing gigs we might still say "wow", but the written stuff allows all sorts of musicians to have a go at it. And each has his, or her, or their, own "take" on it. That makes it a lasting achievement, somehow. That's my two pennyworth. Or two cents'. I wonder if 2c is reading this. No, he listening to "The Art of Fugue" again, I'll bet. |
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Silver Member Username: OjophileON Post Number: 282 Registered: Jun-04 | Do you really love music, or just the way it sounds? Rick, I love music, period. Ever since I became aware of the world around me, I've always loved music and have always been curious and willing to participate in it. I also love the way music sounds and how certain pieces of music are played: an oboe intro, a violin solo at the right moment, a dissonant chord, a four-part vocal harmony, and even a searing guitar solo. Like you, John, and others in this thread, I cannot listen to music in the "background". It's there and I can't shut it out. If it's good, then I listen. Otherwise, it bothers me to the point of irritation and contempt. Through the years, I have managed to listen to music and chew gum at the same time. I can enjoy music and concentrate on the task at hand. Still, there are exceptions. I can't listen to music and read a magazine or a book. The former simply overpowers the latter for attention. Music and conversation? I'd say, 60-40. I can talk or listen to the other person and tap my foot at the same time! I have to have music when I drive, whether it's a 5-minute dash to the grocery or a daily drive to work. Music helps me ease the drudgery of driving --- which I consider a chore. I don't listen to music at bedtime because my mind willingly participates in it and thus, draws me away from the clutches of sleep. So, yes, I love music and I'm grateful for being blessed with a natural appreciation for it. To quote Miles Davis, "It's always been a gift with me, hearing music the way I do. I don't know where it comes from; it's just there and I don't question it." Neither do I. |
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Silver Member Username: OjophileON Post Number: 283 Registered: Jun-04 | To all, Good job with the wuckin' ford play. pucking fiano...? LOL, MR! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1638 Registered: Aug-04 | Don I'll bet you pucking flay it well. [grin] Rick After getting wrapped up in how we appreciate our music, I never really answered the basic question. Yes, the music comes first. All the bad in the world can be diminished by music - if only for a while. I can enjoy a song played through a scratchy radio but I do get into listening through a reasonable quality kit. But it must have rhythm baby! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 552 Registered: Feb-04 | Rick, For me the music comes first. The audio equipment that provides the sound quality is only the vehicle. Even music itself is a vehicle or a means of communicating spiritual and emotional content. Going on walks in nature, whether near the ocean or in the mountains makes me aware of the divinity in the world. Listening to Bach makes me aware of the divinity in us. I marvel that a man could have created something so beautiful and that it could be shared with others. Listening to a great blues song makes me aware of how imperfect and fallible we, but it too is a form of emotional communication. If the song and performance is good, I can feel the suffering and sometimes the humor of a blues tune. A connection is made. I get either a spiritual or emotional picture of the world. Music does this better than anything else, even words. When music lacks spiritual and/or emotional content, it's nothing. (Twelve tone composition anyone?) Good sound quality often widens or makes clearer the window to the spiritual or emotional world. That's all. I could listen to a Van Morrison tune on a jukebox and still feel joy. But listen to Van on a sound system that reveals the inflections and guttural tone of his voice and you get more of what he's trying to get out. John A. You asked earlier about my speakers. The Audio Physic Virgo IIs are my chosen windows to the other world. Tubes and vinyl get me closer to that world. If that makes me an Old Dog or Old School, so be it. I'm convinced that finding that perfect sound in audio gear is a quixotic task. Sometimes you just have to sit still and listen. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3321 Registered: May-04 | Rick - From what I'm hearing right now the speakers will not be staying on the floor. They've been in that location for the past few months in the temporary listening room. In there they sat on the long wall and there was quite good sound, but not anywhere near what the new room has done. I've tried the Rogers (and several different sets of speakers) in the new room and the results are mostly the same no matter what speakers I'm using. Right now the Rogers are set up with everything divided pretty much into thirds. The room is a bit over 21' in length and the speakers sit 7' out. I find my best listening position is the next 7' out from there, leaving the last 7' behind me as mostly dead space for reflections to die away. (Though this third/third/third obviously has much to do with the bass response I'm now hearing.) Any closer and the images get too diffuse and the bass looses impact compared to about 7' away. The speakers are 36" off the floor which puts them at the one third location for my 108" tall ceilings. On the floor the speakers get thick by comparison. I've tried various stand heights and they still don't give me the sound of 7' out and 36" high. This set up, in this room, just seems to give the Rogers everything they want as the bass is quick and well defined at 36" high. The speakers are about 7" apart in an almost 15' wide room, so they are almost at the one third position across the room. Normally a room set up using dimensions closer to the Golden Triangle is suggested for the best performance. I don't know if the room's dimensions being most closely divisible by three (21x15x9 or, divided by three, 7x5x3) is what's making this room work so well, but whatever it is, it is working quite well. I just listened to "The Firebird" and the bass is simply unbelieveable from a speaker the size of a shoe box. I used to have to raise the gain of the system to get the Rogers to fill the old listening space. That meant I had to be careful with what recordings I could play on them. Too much "oomph" in the bottom octave and the small woofers could bottom out which makes a horrible-nasty sound on that little B110 woofer. In the new room, the Rogers just seem to sail through everything with ease. The volume setting is lower than in the old room, but the dynamics are larger in the new room. I haven't heard the slightest bit of distress from the speakers and I've been playing Telarc, Wilson, Chesky, Reference, Mercury and RCA Living Stereo recordings. The rock, blues and jazz I've put on have had a solid bottom end with kick drums that make me shake my head in suprise. I'm not trying to impress anyone with how great my system sounds right now, but my system sounds great. The new room and the placement of the speakers has really worked out well. I'm absolutely amazed. My only problem I'm having now is the Spica's will not go in this room. They demand a far field listening position and there just isn't a way to set them up and have other furniture in the room. At 7' out into the room, the Spicas become the focal point of the entire room and this room just can't work that way. They block entry ways and push everything in to the two far corners. (The Spicas show the disadvantage of large speakers as far as placement and the Rogers show the advantage of small speakers in terms of placement.) Even with the sound the Rogers are giving in this set up, there are things the Spicas do which I still find very appealing. I'll work on it, but it looks like the Rogers have just become #1 speaker in this house. ********************* "For my money you still can't beat a good fugue." I got nothing. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1639 Registered: Aug-04 | "For my money you still can't beat a good fugue" I can get two good fugues for $29.99. Sometimes they have a special and I can get four fugues for fifty bucks. Or Mrs Rantz and I can have two fugues each. It's the damn hangovers that's the problem. It takes about 13oz for a reall good fugue these days. Shame we don't live in a fugue state! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2357 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: " I'm not trying to impress anyone with how great my system sounds right now, but my system sounds great. The new room and the placement of the speakers has really worked out well. I'm absolutely amazed." I'm with you on that one, I wish everyone here could hear my system right now! I am so pleased with what I'm hearing it's never been this good! WWHHOOHAH!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick:..I have no problem listening to music in the background. Every once in a while I may hear a piece that strikes me to where I say that sounds good which may make me get up and go listen, but for the most part background is fine. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2954 Registered: Dec-03 | Love all the recent posts. I feel like I am among friends. I am totally with you, 2c, even down to twelve=tone, serialism etc. Jan once quipped that he had had a duodecaphonic ulcer removed. Best thing for it. Prompt surgery. If we can agree on anything about good and bad in music, surely Stockhausen and co are for room 101. A con, in my view. The amazing thing is people take it all so seriously. I'll tell you a really good, satisfying, fugue. Any of the choruses in "Messiah" puts lead in your pencil. But the chorus at the end of part II reaches the parts that other fugues can't reach. And He shall reign for ever and e-ever _______________And He shall reign for ever and e-ever ______________________________And He shall reign for ever and e-ever etc. Hallelujah. Then part III ends with a fugue on one word. Amen. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzQld Australia Post Number: 1642 Registered: Aug-04 | "I feel like I am among friends" Oh - you only feel that way? Whaddya reckon dogs - voting time? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 997 Registered: Dec-03 | I am really glad everyone's system is getting tweaked and sounding great. I know what you mean Kegger. I often say, I wish the "Dogs" could hear this system. All I know is I've never enjoyed the music more than I do now. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3323 Registered: May-04 | "Any of the choruses in "Messiah" puts lead in your pencil. But the chorus at the end of part II reaches the parts that other fugues can't reach." I got nothing. Actually I got something but the medicine is clearing it up. I think it was a little Asian fugue. They have medicine for that? Oh, yes. I think I'd just stay away from little Asians. ************ How much does a fugue weigh? A coupla pounds. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 553 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, if I remember correctly there is a great Shostakovich quartet (8 or 15?) that has a fugue in it that is a play on his name (D-S-C-H in German musical notation). It is a play on Bach's own fugue based on his name. Not that it's important to know this to appreciate the quartet, but it makes you wonder about all the jokes and play-on-notes that DS and other composers insert into their works--like personal meassages placed between the lines. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3324 Registered: May-04 | Those musicians are fun people. I am trying to remember the quartet where, if you play it backwards, you can hear, "Stalin is dead. Stalin is the Walrus." |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 998 Registered: Dec-03 | " Actually I got something but the medicine is clearing it up." " I think it was a little Asian Fugue." Now THAT, I remember all too well! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3325 Registered: May-04 | I've thought about it, and "fugue" just isn't that funny. It lacks the essential "K"; "Neil Simon's play 'The Sunshine Boys', a character says: "Words with a k in it are funny. Alka-Seltzer is funny. Chicken is funny. Pickle is funny. All with a k. Ls are not funny." I think in this case it's words with "G" are not funny, even if they have a "u" on either side. Goober could be funny, but it doesn't really have an actual "u" anywhere around it. Fake "u"'s are not funny. That's just my opinion. "Opinion" can be funny, especially when it's pluralized. Usually "opinions" are funny. Sometimes "opinions" are hysterical. But they have no "K". A "K" in there would make "opinions" roll on the floor funny. But I don't know how that would work. Work is normally not funny. It's an exception to the "K" rule. This stuff is funny: http://www.anycities.com/lydiaolydia/Quotes.html |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 999 Registered: Dec-03 | I am painfully aware that I am closing in on the so-called Gold Member status. I think the time has come for all the "Dogs" to take all appeals to the Admin. to grant me RUST status. If not, I have to choose to reappear in a different persona, continue with gold status, or disappear altogether. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2359 Registered: Dec-03 | C'mon Rick show us your gold member! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1000 Registered: Dec-03 | Give me Liberty or give me.............. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1001 Registered: Dec-03 | ..............................RUST! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3327 Registered: May-04 | Spring - the time for resurrection! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1003 Registered: Dec-03 | OK...........OLD TUBES THEN! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 893 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - you, sir, and this entire forum, continue to amaze me! Yes, you are writing about quartet #8, which DS dedicated to himself, in memory of "the composer of this quartet" because he thought nobody else would ever memorialize him! The DSCH was also used in Symphony #10, and, to lesser extent, in other works. Yes, again, that it was taken from a Bach fugue - C(?) from the well-tempered clavier. Can't remember exactly. A music teacher of mine way, way back in college wanted us to remember that a fugue is a simple line, or tune, expanded and embellished - so he said: "remember - fugue equals frugal." The "frugal fugue" has stuck with me all these years. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 894 Registered: Oct-04 | Rick - sorry - Congratulations on your Gold Member! Impressive, sir! So what DOES come after "Gold?" I think Rust too negative - perhaps Titanium? Anyway - we raise collective glasses to you, sir! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 895 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - going back to your 1 a.m. April 4 posting: If your music must have spiritual or emotional values - and you diss 12-tone - how do you rationalize your appreciation of Messiaen? Maybe you hear things in the good Frenchman's compositions that I fail to hear. (probably) |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1645 Registered: Aug-04 | Congrats to our new Gold Member! Speech? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2955 Registered: Dec-03 | Congratulations, Rick. You can put it away now, thank you. Even in this hour of celebration, we must agree that it is not a pretty sight. May you never rust, nor your tubes run dry. There's no fugue like an old fugue. Watch out for these cheap, imported Aussie fugues; they're a dime a dozen. Jan, I don't understand "I got nothing". You wrote it twice. It surely means something, to somebody. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 896 Registered: Oct-04 | John A. - I think Jan may be fugued up. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1005 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks to all. Speech? I am sincerely honored to be in such distinguished company. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 555 Registered: Feb-04 | Rick, Congrats. Remember "rust never sleeps". I heard Poor Neil Young recently suffered an aneurysm. Hope he survives to create more great music. Larry R, Messiaen at his best is about as spiritual a modern composer there is. One of my favorite modern works is "Quartet for the End of Time", written and first performed in a N a z i concentration camp. The instrumentation was chosen based on who could play what at the camp. The N a z i commander was a music lover (another example of going into the jungle armed with music and not guns to have a better chance of survival. See also "Fitzcarraldo" and "The Pianist") who allowed the performance. According eyewitness accounts, both the prisoners and the N a z i soldiers were deeply moved by the performance. The quartet includes moments of utter pain and sorrow with moments of unexpected beauty, Messiaen's trademark birdcalls, and most remarkably a quiet passage consisting of lightly played chords on the piano that somehow evoke the stillness of time and a glimpse into another world (similar to the end of Mahler's Ninth). Messiaen has a unique and often strange vision that is sometimes hard to get. But his music isn't void of spirituality or emotion. Just the opposite in fact. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1006 Registered: Dec-03 | 2C, Mr. Young is recovering nicely in a New York hospital, and all reports indicate a full recovery is expected. I catch my 6 year old daughter singing "After the Gold Rush" every now and then. That just blows me away. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 558 Registered: Feb-04 | Rick, Your daughter is too cool for school. |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 898 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - Ah, yes - I give you points on Messiaen, for I have not heard that much of his work. That which I did hear, I did not like. But then, I do not like ALL of Schubert's work, either! Sigh. Points to you. And so to other things. . .I would very much like to sit down of an evening with you, some good Scotch, a fine salmon, some fresh vegetables, and a "dinner with Andre" type of evening. Maybe someday. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 899 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - just to make sure of my ground in our discussion, I nipped across and played some Schubert, Beethoven and Schumann trios and quartets. Quickly, I'm afraid. But I was relieved to find my original reaction to Messiaen to hold up. What I find in the composers listed above is melody, cohesiveness and harmony. Messiaen - for me alone - provides an overall sense of despair. That, in my often-depressed state, I do not need. You are obviously far above me in musical insights, 2C, and I bow to your expertise. But I shall remain true to that music which pulls together, rather than pulls apart. IMHO. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2956 Registered: Dec-03 | Personally I find Messiaen is off with the birds. That is a cheap quip. Sorry, 2c. At least it is tonal. I cannot get past the reverential intros whenever anything of his comes on the radio. I want to jump up and down and shout "bullshit!", which puts me in no mood for listening. I don't think he does despair, Larry. More contemplation of the infinite. For me, the tent always gets in the way. The Shostakovich quartets are wonderful, and thanks again to J.V. and this forum. You really can teach an old dog new tricks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3332 Registered: May-04 | So fugue jokes can be funny if their frugal, eh? I'll stick with "K's". Pickle. HARRR!!! John - "I got nothing" means I got nothing. Very frugal even without a "K". Sometimes you just got nothing. Twice. Messiaen, Messiaen, Messiaen! The name always reminded me of a high school cafeteria food fight. Too obscure to explain. I would definitely have to dig through some discs to find anything I have by Messiaen. I think there's a disc that came when I was getting the "Best of the BBC" recordings. I can't remember a thing about it. Sorry. Speaking of composers that make you want to leave the room - Larry, stay away from Bruckner if you find Messiaen depressing. If anyone is in a terrible mood and feels thinking about your own funeral will cheer you up, I can heartily recommend Bruckner's later symphonies. Problem is you will only find yourself more depressed. What a guy he was. What a jokester he must have been to live with. Lastnight I pulled out a Wilson Audio disc that I have had for more than fifteen tears. It is a wonderful recording of piano and violin. Wilson Audio is David Wilson of Wilson Watt speakers fame and the recordings he made are excellent. They are simple techniques with accurate phase, John, they sound terrific on the Quads. (If you can find any of the Wilson discs or the Reference Recordings by Keith Johnson, LP or CD, they are worth the money.) Anyway, the recording is of Beethoven's Sonata in G Major, Op. 96 and Enescu's Sonata No. 3, Op. 25. I have listened to this disc as much as anything I own and find the Beethoven selection to be outstanding. I have put it on repeat on the CD version and can have it be background all day and still listen to it at night. But I cannot get through the Enescu selection. Try as I might, I shut everything down when this piece comes on. So I'd like to know - does anyone like Enescu? And if you do can you tell me why? ***************** Congrats, Rick, on making it to the top of the mountain. I don't think you can get the administrators to go for "Rust". I inquired about "oxidized" and didn't get a reply. Wouldn't "Old Tubes" be kinda like "NOS Tubes"? Maybe you could be "Mr. NOS" or "Tube Roller". Put a big "TR" on your hat. (I still like the idea of hats.) Finally, I would like to thank Rantz for his response over on the "Speaker" part of the forum. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/130011.html This is not the first time Rantz has come to my aid on another thread, and I would like to let him know I appreciate the help. So, thanks, Rantz! It seems you can teach an Old Dog new tricks, but it's the young pups that don't want to listen. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1649 Registered: Aug-04 | Jan, We old dogs have watch each others backs. I don't know how you could have explained things any better there, but that's the problem with ferals. BTW. You answered a question for me there aslo. Ta! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2960 Registered: Dec-03 | Well done, MR. I lobbed a bit in, in support. Don't tell 'em about old dogs, or they'll feel conspired against. Reasonably. I will write it here, not there. My Quads support Jan's case completely. On paper they are nothing special. In reality, they are the best of the best. Sir. Jan, Brucker was a precursor to Mahler, and idolized Wagner. Here he is, deeply grateful for a pinch of snuff from the master. One of the great studies of body language, I always think. One has to try to forget exactly how far to the right these guys were of Attilla the Hun. But I admit it ain't easy. There is something scary in that music. We've discussed this before, with 2c and others.  |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 2961 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry, that was the thumbnail.  |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1654 Registered: Aug-04 | Now that's way better, John LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1007 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I'm starting to like the hat idea. How about beenies with propellers? I think it must be a silly hat. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1008 Registered: Dec-03 | As far as "Tube Roller", "Mr. NOS", or "TR" goes, let's just tell it the way it is........................................................................Tube S-L-U-T ! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 902 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - YES! Messiaen=foodfight=Messiaen. Absolutely perfect, sir! Sigh. As to the Enescu. Ole George started out OK, what with his rather enticing Roumanian Rhapsodies - I remember playing them in college. But somehow the guy got under the spell of the Modernists, and began to slip his Gypsy melodies in under counter-attacks of all stripe. Hmmm. . . The piano-violin sonata to which you refer is an excellent example. Take a piano, set it to going in one key. Take a violin, set it to going in another, and let the two do a pig-in-a-bag fight. See who finishes first - that sort of thing. No, sir, you will not find me liking THAT side of Enescu. As I've said many times, give me music that soothes, inspires or even challenges a bit - but please extirpate the compositions that create angst and depression in this ole dawg! I realize here that I shall not be in Two Cents' camp, for he obviously extracts elements from such music that I am unable to extract - or enjoy. Huzzah to him for his personal choices. I, on the other hand, am a rather simple soul, who insists that music leave me on a positive, rather than negative, note. Or several positive notes!! Back to Enescu and his Rhoumanian romps. They're the sort of thing that you'll hear on a disc by, say, Eric Kunzel and his Cincinnati Pops band. Rather light-hearted music, and not too "deep." And thank Goodness for such discs - for it is the "light classics" that reach out and grab those to whom the word "classical" is poison. If such "light" music can bring more people into our listening-camp - three cheers for all! I'm always deeply moved when I spot young people in the opera audience. Oh, it's only four or five out of 900, but it gives me a ray of hope, anyway. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 903 Registered: Oct-04 | Rick - interesting, your hat-comments re Jan's beanie, etc. Look at a '30s movie - every man is wearing a "serious" hat. Look at today's movies, and only golf caps (oh, OK, an occasional Green Beret!) occasionally grace the domes of the actors. Has the demise of hats meant a loss, or gain, for the male of the species. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 561 Registered: Feb-04 | I see some of the Old Dogs nipping at the heels of Mahler and Messiaen. Okay, you don't like M & M. That's fine. But the strong attitude of intolerance I sense is not fine. Sort of reminds me Stalin's intolerance of music that could not be understood by the "common folk". A lot of 20th century western music is difficult. It's a sign of the times. Just look at the horrors seen in the past century. Great artists are attuned to this. The bad ones are oblivious. Mahler may have been conservative politically and socially, but he was a progressive when it came to music. He has lasting value, because his music expresses the anxiety of the modern era. Yes, some of it is scary; it's supposed to be scary and anxiety-inducing. Compare him to a contemporary composer such as Delius. I find Delius scary despite, or because, his music is so pleasant. He shut himself in his little rosy garden of a world and was oblivious to the world-changing events around him. That, sir, is true conservatism. It reminds of the catch-phrase from Vonnegut's WWII novel Slaughterhouse Five: "Everything was beautiful and nothing hurt." It's too late for that. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3336 Registered: May-04 | A beanie with a propeller? Silly? How about a beret with a propeller? That's silly. I'm not at all sure on the hat thing. We don't want to look like Larry on "Leave it to Beaver". Or at least I don't. I'm a bit in favor of the type of chapeau that was worn by Bogie in the film noir stuff. A nice dark fedora pulled down over the brow. http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/page/H/CTGY/mdh Though I'm also partial to the "wide awake" which I believe is what you would call the hat Hoss wore on "Bonanza" and Charlie Chan wore. Today's fashion would allow both sexes participating in the Old Dogs thread to look stylish (?) in such a topper. http://www.virtue.to/articles/mens_hats.html http://www.hats.us/hats_mens.htm http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/117987.html What I vote against is any type of cap that can be worn backwards. **************** John - I was never interested enough in Bruckner to know about his dalliances with the evil ones. I have to admit to liking Bruckner's later symphonies, however they are anything but uplifting. A night of Bruckner followed by some Edith Piaf and you might just consider jumping off a bridge. The Strauss, Wagner and Mahler recordings all stay in the dark, back corner of the closet. Locked tight away. Particularly with the Mahler, I'm convinced there is an energy that comes from those recordings that makes me want to kick a cat. That's evil, nasty stuff. I'm much happier with Dimitri. Larry - "Take a violin, set it to going in another, and let the two do a pig-in-a-bag fight. See who finishes first - that sort of thing." Yes, I hear what you mean. I cannot tell you who finishes first because I have never been able to finish the piece myself. Strange music. It is subtitled "in Rumanian Folkstyle". Must be lovely people those Rumanians. Probably wear lots of garlic chains around their neck. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1010 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry....I should have known you would be a fedora type guy. If I choose to forsake the beret, I would go with a panama hat. The basic problem with a beret is most people don't know how to wear one. It winds up sitting on top of their heads looking like a pancake. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2361 Registered: Dec-03 | Old dogs get together! Don't know if it will ever happen and I wish I knew about this sooner! http://audiokarma.org/ak2005/ But anyways just found out about this yesterday! And it seems to be just the kinda thing we could use to get together some day. These guys seem to do this yearly, have a hotel setup and talk audio while getting together to hang out and maybe have a couple drinks. Sounds like us! Does anyone think we could try to do our own thing while using theres as a tag along since they have it all setup with a ton of cool gear? Needless to say it's in my backyard this year so I'm going, should be awsome! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 906 Registered: Oct-04 | Two Cents, my good cyber-friend: You stand firm in support of Mahler. This I can truly understand, as I find in his work much that provokes thought as well as pleasure. But I simply cannot agree with your position on Olivier Messiaen - period. Let me be a commoner, sir, but it is music such as Messiaen's that turns away more people than it beckons. Ah, Mr. Delius. I am sure it has occurred to you that the main reason that he shut himself up was that he suffered terribly from syphilus. I understand that the latter stages of the disease are truly horrible - to both physical properties and mental facility. He got the disease whilst trying his hand at orange-growing here in florida. Hmmm. . .seems he was dallying with the local damsels when he should have been attending the groves that he eventually deserted as unproductive. Who knows - had he not gone back to Europe and to his compositions, we might now be drinking "Delius" orange juice instead of "Florida Natural!" If, my friend, I want to be scared - I rent a copy of "Psycho," not modern composers, for they irritate, but do not frighten. (are we still friends?) Jan V. - an evening of Bruckner followed by Edith Piaf? Good grief, man - the Hemlock Society wants you to check in! Have you got an end-deal for them! (grin) |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 907 Registered: Oct-04 | A quick PS - I look at compositions by such notables as Mssr. Messiaen the same way I look at a lot of "modern" art. I call it trash - others may find it inspirational. Twenty years ago, Chicago was filling its small parks and expanded sidewalk areas with "modern" artworks. Big steel beams - small wooden balls - warped pieces of plastic. Quietly, the "modern" mayor is making most of that art disappear. And I have yet to hear one editorial voice raised in anger that it is going bye-bye. Anti-art Gestapo tactics? Wellll. . .The Chagalls are in place, and well-attended (though "Impressionistic") The composer-in-residence for the Chicago Symphony recently told a reporter that he had "modified" a composition at the request of Symphony members, who considered his dissonance an insult to their performance skills. Hmmm. . .Maybe the Modernist-composer's days are numbered. New opera at Santa Fe this summer - and whadda yah know - it's not dissonant! In fact, it's getting good back-pats for being "accessible." No, I think that the compositions similar to one performed here this week by Emerson String Quartet are slowly fading. The local music critic allowed as how it was much akin to a "horde of mosquitoes, hovering and ready to bite." Perhaps these compositions will be the Tchaikovsky-works of the 21st century someday. Looked back on with:"Well, it's pretty good, why did everybody hate it?" If so, I'll be glad I'm gone. More anon, with respect. . . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3339 Registered: May-04 | I have their number on the fridge, Larry. Just in case. I understand 2c's point, but it is still a matter of taste. There is no inherent intolerance in disliking certain artist's work. Cetainly not close to the amount of intolerance many of these artists showed to those they saw as their inferior in intelectual power and social position. To turn away from an artist because you have given them a fair appraisal is not intolerance. I can listen to the Beatles for long periods of time, but a few bars of most Rolling Stones will have me looking for the bar. The intolerance is when the artist is not judged at all by their work, but is merely dismissed out of hand. It is what I have done with Enescu. One piece of music and I have no taste for any more. Intolerant but that is how I choose, in this case, to spend my time. I have given Mahler several tries and I still lock him away for many reasons, not the least of which is his intolerance. This hat thing is worse than choosing a phono cartridge. Door prizes from McIntosh? A used MR80 tuner perhaps? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1011 Registered: Dec-03 | I think I want a big plume in my panama hat. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1012 Registered: Dec-03 | ........and a cape! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 909 Registered: Oct-04 | To all: If I follow Jan's reasoning my distaste for Messiaen is not true intolerance, but merely an editorial decision on my part. I voted "no." After I gave his music a pretty fair chance over the years. Feel the same about John Corigliano, though not nearly as strongly negative there. Now here's a case where I'm sure 2C will jump all over me - as will some of you. I first met and talked with Corigliano when he was composer-in-residence with the ChiSymphOrch in the late 80s. He gave me a copy of his Symphony #1 - which I played once and gave to a friend. Sigh. Since then, of course, he's won Grammys, and his score for the Red Violin has been a hit (I actually like most of that). Then came the opera "The Ghost of Versailles," which got great acclaim - but which I did not like at all. See? I'm a bit of a Contrarian, I guess. But when music - anybody's music - grates on me to the point where it causes pain, I quit. Just like Jan with his Enescu Sonata. Had Jan heard the Rhoumanian Rhapsodies instead, he might like the guy! Maybe. . . OK, 2C - fire away! (grin) I am afraid that I am guilty of intolerance when it comes to rap and hip-hop. Want it gone, gone, gone. And I have heard some, but not much, of it. It is like sand in a tight bathing suit to me. Need I say more? |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 910 Registered: Oct-04 | Rick: Wow - a cape and a green beret - aren't you a bit afraid of your image? (swish, swish) (grin) |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 564 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm not trying to convince anyone that he/she ought to like Messiaen or Mahler. The last thing I want to be is an arbiter of taste. As long as you recognize that M & M and even Eminem might have some value to someone, it's all cool. I must do some work now. Later, gators. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1013 Registered: Dec-03 | No, my final vote is for a cape and a plumed panama hat. Image be damned! Batman wore a cape. Superman wore a cape. Sherlock Holmes wore a caped back coat. Underdog wore a cape. So a cape it is.......... What say you, Jan? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3343 Registered: May-04 | Have you seen "the cape scene" in "The Incredibles"? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1014 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes I have, very funny. OK scratch the cape. How about spats? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3344 Registered: May-04 | Spats are cool!!! Garters, in particular chicken garters, are not cool. Though if any of you are so inclined, don't let me stop you. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1655 Registered: Aug-04 | And so - to spoil the mood . . . Getting right off the subject of hats, capes, spats, garters and dark, depressing classical compositions ("A Symphony For The Devil" sounds delightful after all that!), I am back on the bandwagon and seeing as how anything goes on "old dogs" . . . Started watching "Bad Santa" last night starring Billy Bob Thornton. Now you all know by now that I am not a prude, but there is a time and place for everything - but never an excuse for anything goes. I believe it is about time someone took stock and rooted out the crappy and obscene behaviour of movie makers and actors who seem to be able to get away with anything in the name of art which, in Hollywood terms, really means cash. Is it excusable that for the sake of making a really bad movie, an actor can keep ranting grossly and obscenely to a young boy for no apparant reason than to show that he is just some ratbag who has lost his way in life and cares not about anyone or anything except his fifth of scotch? Someone's child actor is no doubt schooled in the fact that all the crap coming out of Billy Bob's mouth is just pretend and in the real world it's use is very, very naughty. I/we can begrudgingly sit through some of today's movies that are loaded with four letter words and gross subject matter providing there is at least some significence to their inclusion, but we couldn't sit through Billy's "acting" with that child in 'Bad Santa' - crap with a capital "K" If you think I am going over the top here, then think about this: Children are the great emulator's of this world. They will copy what we say much easier than they will do what we say and the problem is, in my book, that ratings given to tv shows and movies can only work in a perfect world where all parents give a damn. "Bad Santa" is supposed to be a dark comedy. Well it's true - it was so dark I couldn't see it. This has value? Eminem has value? - hurrrummph! Take the movie "Monster" I know some will say that the excessive use of bad language and obscene subject matter was necessary to portray the character. I say rubbish! Go back a few decades and talent itself was able to portray anything. Have we lost our imagination to the point we have to have such reality shoved down out throats? I know I've touched on this subject before and this will be the last time, but I feel strongly about what the future holds for our children and grandchildren. I don't think it looks too bright at present. Preventing filth and violence from being shoved in their faces as they are growing up is a place to start imo. Please write to your congressmen and tell them My Rantz has had enough! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3347 Registered: May-04 | Better yet, I'll write to my governor! He's a "MORALS" type guy. Oops, not right now, he's in the middle of executing number 39 so far this year. GO, TEXAS!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 912 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: ALL-RIGHT! Kill dem bass turds! You've got more notches in your Texas-guns than we've got! My Rantz: Sigh. I have been ranting about the same thing for about 50 years now - in print, on the air, and in private life. Look where it's got me! Naples, Flawed-duh! Where there's more money than God has, and less taste than a flea has. (do we know how much taste a flea has? Hmmm. .) If, sir, I write to my congressman, and tell him that My Rantz has had enough - will I get visits from strange men in white lab coats? Hmmm. . . I think I'll calm down now, and go watch a DVD of an Axe Murder film. I need calm. I need peace. Where is Mr. Lector when I need him??? On second thought, I think I'll go listen to some Mozart. Yeah - melody, harmony, calm, peace, order, class. . . |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 913 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - remember, sir - if you wear spats you've gotta wear super-shined shoes, and striped pants with pleats, and a starched shirt. Is it really worth it, sir? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1657 Registered: Aug-04 | Hey - write to anyone, be proactive! Yeah, a guy comes into my home, r a p e s and kills my wife, kills my son and well, yeah sure, I forgive him! If he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong - then I'm with the gov! |
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Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 914 Registered: Oct-04 | My Rantz - I think you need to watch a couple of Charles Bronson movies, sir. You'll feel beddah! (grin) I, for one, am heavily armed in my house. Yep. Great Sabatier chef's knives - and a three-cell heavier-than-lead flashlight to beat brains out of skulls. guns? Well, uh, ah'm skayred of dem, so I ain' got any of doze. Sigh. And I won't forgive anybody! So thar!!! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1658 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry, Just put in an order for some DVD-a's, a Dualdisc (to try), and some SACD's with Acoustic Sounds - If they pass the muster then I think they will be my number one hi-res source. Sorry about getting on the bandwagon again guys. Last time. I'm no moralist, I just see things spiralling out of control in the not-so-distant future. |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 443 Registered: Mar-04 | My, I would agree with your rant, Where does it all end? I remember attempting to shelter my kids from Hollywood's (and society's in general), idea of what's now considered socially acceptable standards. They still "grew up" too fast. My parents said the same about my brother and I. Their parents said the same of mine, and so it goes. I'm not in favor of censorship, we just need to do a better job of policing the trash with the power of our wallets. Likely to happen? Doubtful, but I can hope. On the other hand, while visiting family last week, we rented the movie, "Garden State." Serious, funny, drug use, and F-Bombs notwithstanding I actually enjoyed it. So, should I scratch what I just said above? Hmmm. Also, for you tubular types, we were sitting around talking and listening to music (I understand some of you may have a problem with that), I got up to refresh our drinks and walked by to check out the source of this wonderful sound. Lo and behold my brother-in-law has a Mac in his cabinet - an MC240. It used to belong to his father-in-law who gave it to him years ago when he decided to upgrade components. |
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