Attention Mauimusicman

Anonymous	Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 12:20 GMT Read this http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/HumanHearingPhaseDistortio.php
mauimusicman Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 06:52 GMT http://www.music.miami.edu/programs/mue/Research/dkoya/title_page.htm Annonymous, I'll do you one better ok? Go down to your local pro music store and rent yourself a 4th order x-over. Probably won't cost more than $20.00/day max. Hook it up to your pre-amp like an Equalizer in the tape loop. This will allow you to actually record on tape or cd all that crap the crossover is adding to the signal(that is IF you REALLY wanna know what higher order crossovers sound like). I think you'll be quite amazed by what you hear. Once finished, post back here and tell me if you still think phase distortion from a 4th order butterworth crossover is not audable, ok? Interesting side note to your article: I e-mailed Harman Group asking them why they don't design a time/phase aligned speaker system. I mean, they ARE probably the single biggest audio company on the planet. Revel( Harman's top of the line) is a very pricy speaker. No reply. None. Notta. Zilch. Zero. Why do they support rediculous claims like the one you posted? Simple....they cannot figure out the math to do a time/phase aligned speaker. Don't believe me? E-mail them. Sorry to spoil your fun.
bumblebee Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 06:59 GMT maui, why not go to audioholics forums. i think they can go technical w/ you better than us mortals
Cornelius Silver Member Username: Cornelius Post Number: 117 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 07:17 GMT That's the problem with that forum - they are too technical. They're obsessed with measurements. If they're so into graphs, why doesn't anyone over there ever respond when I mention a speaker's step response - THE most important measurement for a speaker? There are a lot of inexperienced listeners over there at Audioholics, and when someone dangles a pageful of measurements like the one posted above, they all stop listening and just ogle the numbers. Our hearing is very sensitive, we've relied on them for survival for many years - you can sense time incoherent designs. It's called listener fatigue.
bumblebee Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 07:35 GMT i believe anything we can see, feel, hear, taste and smell can be measured. if we hear differently from what is measured, are the measurements wrong, or did we hear differently? numbers don't lie, and our perception of sound can be quite unreliable. about fatigue, i get fatigued listening to bright components. i listen to my wharfs for hours w/o fatigue. and i don't think they mention time coherence in their brochures.
Anonymous	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 13:32 GMT Maui So almost everyone in the speaker building industry over all this time is incapable of doing the math and fully understanding the benefits of time/phase aligned speaker. Every time the industry or forums disagree with your thinking the facts are beyond their ability to comprehend. What is it like to be so much more intelligent than almost everyone else on the planet.
Cornelius Silver Member Username: Cornelius Post Number: 118 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 16:47 GMT I understand that measurements have a place, and are helpful, but there is absolutely no way everything can be measured. Yes, if your wharfdales are rolled off, you may experience less fatique. I mentioned that we've relied on our hearing for many years. It's when one listens to a time incoherent speaker that our brain senses something is not right (it's subtle but it's there and that is what contributes to most listening fatigue, or at least innacurate, unnatural sound). Like I said, if you're into measurements, then check out speaker's step responses - that is a measurement that does not lie - it is THE most important speaker measurement.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 3444 Registered: May-04	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 17:47 GMT "If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." - Daniel von Recklinghausen (Chief Engineer H.H. Scott)
jimvm Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 21:09 GMT One may spout all of the technical gobbledygook one wants. In the final analysis, of the hundreds of speakers presently being manufactured, each consumer is most likely going to purchase what sounds best to him within his budget among those speakers he is able to audition. Some folks like forward, some like laid back, some like neutral. It's all personal preference. If someone doesn't like the speakers you like, it's certainly not worth wringing your hands over, weeping or gnashing your teeth. While I can appreciate the enthusiasm some of the folks on this forum have for their speakers, not everyone is going to feel the same way about the speakers you own as you do. Accept it and move on.
mauimusicman Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 07:58 GMT A few here have tried to diss-credit the merits of time/phase accuracy of speakers by posting studies claiming it's not audable. From 1930 to 1980 we saw highly original works from Bell Labs, Paul Klipsch, Ted Jordan, Edgar Villchur, Henry Kloss, Arthur Janzen, Roy Allison, B&O and BBC staff members, and many others published in the AES Journals. Every one of them was not only firmly grounded in the theories of sound and mechanics and electromagnetics, each paper they submitted had to be peer-reviewed for accuracy of the math and the analytic approach. Today, with our larger market, this publication process is no longer a requirement for gaining a dealer's or magazine's attention or respect. So there's no peer review, and "of course" no designer can be challenged on his acoustic knowledge by users, retailers, reviewers, their own production staffs, nor their investors. Do consider that large manufacturers also must introduce a new model lineup every year to put pressure on a retailer to order, right then, to keep his franchise. And to present interesting "new" items for the many magazines to write about. This schedule limits how much original research a designer can do- not true of speaker and other audio manufacturing before 1975. When did work on those "new" designs start? Not in the months nor even a year before, that's for sure. I'm sure many, if not all of you here have experienced the delima of where to place your speakers in your room. Move them a few inches and the sound can change dramitically. But, is it the room or is it something else? Imagine a friend on a folding chair in the living room, playing guitar. Move him back and forth a few centimeters- that won't change his sound. Yet it does for poorly designed speakers, and does not for properly-designed models. In most any room, on most any system, any properly designed, minimum-phase point-source speaker sounds about the same- like the real thing. Your friend playing guitar sounds about the same in most every room. His sounds are of "minimum phase" and in many ways originate from a point source.

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