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AGB Unregistered guest | Greetings Forum, I am the anonymous user who posted the thread earlier looking for some advice on receivers. I will repost my thread and try to add as much info as i can. (Thanks JIMVM for the enlightment!) Can any gurus out there share some advice? I just purchased some HSU VT-12 along with a VTF-2 sub for my media/game room. The room is 18' X 20' and my ceiling Heith is 10'. I am not too worried of sound loudness as my media/gameroom sits above my garage. I have a infocus projecteor that is ceiling mounted along with a 6' x 8' screen that i watch flicks on. The usage of the room will be as follows: 65% music (Smooth Jazz, Salsa, Merengue - music with alot of natural sounds as well) 25% flicks (Lord of the rings, Scarface, Sopranos, Goodfellas, etc) 10% - R&R I am on the market looking for a decent receiver 7.1 HK,DENON, YAMAHA etc... <$1500 that will do the works with flicks, HDTV etc..as well as deliver some good clean crisp tunes? I mention these receivers because this is what i am familiar with (brandwise). If there are any others anyone can suggest, pls do so. Any recommendations? Your input is greatly appreciated. Peace... |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 2897 Registered: Dec-03 | Check out the Outlaw Audio 950 pre/pro $699 with the Outlaw 7100 power amp $899. A little over the budget but well worth the price. |
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AGB Unregistered guest | Thanks Berny! Your advice is greatly appreciated...i will look into the Outlaw Audio and power amp. Peace... |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | Hi AGB. First of all, I think your speakers are too small for the size of your room. Your room is pretty big; around 3600 cubic feet. You may well find that these little satellite speakers do not have the "oomph" to fill the room; they just cannot move enough air. Let me add that I've never heard these particular speakers; they have a generally good reputation, but their size is their size. Second, your receiver to speaker budget ratio is a little skewed. Your Hsu speakers normally sell for $299 and you're looking to spend up to $1,500 on a receiver. Really, the lion's share of your budget should be on speakers. Here's what I would do (and it may not be what you want to hear): 1) Sell the Hsu speakers (not the sub if you really like it) or use them in a smaller room of your house. Look into getting some bookshelf-size speakers; something with at least 6" woofers. Brands to consider are B&W, JMLab, KEF, Klipsch, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, Polk and PSB. All of these firms are well respected speaker companies and make a wide range of speakers, including good sounding "mid-fi" speakers. 2) Reallocate a portion of your $1,500 receiver budget to the speakers. There are quite a few decent receivers (Denon, HK, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha) in the $500 - $900 range. Plan to spend at least $1,000 on the speakers. 3) Unless you are able to up your overall budget for the speakers, just get your two mains and the center channel speaker to start with. Then as your budget allows, add your surrounds. Many people "build" their HT's this way; it's what I'm doing now. I know that this entails a trip back to the drawing board, but in the long run, I believe you'll be much more satisfied with the sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 45 Registered: Mar-05 | I agree with Jim, keep the Hsu sub but upgrade the speakers if you're doing 75% music. To the list he supplied I'd also add Ascend CBM-170s or CMT-340s for your front L/R, the CMT-340 for the center, and less expensive speakers for the surrounds or wait on the surrounds until you have money for better ones. The Ascends are PERFECT for the kind of music you described as 65%. |
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MarkB Unregistered guest | I happen to agree with Jimvm also, I recently built a Klipsch system with SF-1 front floorstanding speakers, SC-1 Center, and SS-1 surrounds, and a Def Tech Pro80 sub. My room is 16 x 20 w/10ft ceilings so I can relate. In all I wrapped about $1100 in speakers and my new Marantz SR4500 receiver pushes it all very nicely. The room is filled with great sound, and I don't feel as if my speakers are struggling. |
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AGB Unregistered guest | Jimvm/Edster922/MarkB, Many thanks for the info and advice. I can definately stretch my budget and purchase some larger speakers. I will porobably limit my size of speaker to a bookshelf or in wall speaker. I would prefer not have anything larger than that if i can avoid it. One of the reasons i wanted to stick with satelite speakers is i wanted to avoid having towers next to my screen as well as running wire under the carpet or along the baseboards. It is much easier and less work if i run speaker wire through my ceiling. Gents, again many thanks for the info. I will definately do my homework on your suggestions. Peace... |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | AGB - This will give you an idea of the kind of system I'm talking about: Receiver: Any one of these; check them out and choose one with the features that are important to you. All MSRP for around $500 (the Marantz is $400) and with a little negotiating, can be had for less: Pioneer - VSX-1015TXK THX Select Denon - AVR-1905 Yamaha - HTR-5860 Onkyo - TX-SR602 Harman Kardon - AVR 235 Marantz - SR4500 Speakers: Mains - Paradigm Mini Monitors $399/pr Center - Paradigm CC-370 $379 Surrounds - ADP-370 $729 With a pretty much standard discount, these speakers will run you around $1300. So, the entire set-up would be around $1,750 -- a little over your $1,500 budget, but would sound much better, IMO, than any satellite/cube speakers. Of course you would keep your Hsu sub. With respect to the speakers, Paradigm makes good speakers that give you a lot of bang for your buck. However, speakers are very subjective and they may not be to your liking (although I can't imagine anyone not liking the Mini Monitors; fantastic speakers at their price point, IMO). There are, of course, many other good speakers out there that would serve you well. I'm sure others will offer you their suggestions. I've never heard the speakers that Edster922 suggested but Ascends are also noted for giving a lot of bang for your buck. Good luck! |
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Silver Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 182 Registered: Feb-05 | Good advice jimvm, however I would forego the ADP's, put the Mini's in the rear, buy Monitor 5's for the front and put the savings into the Marantz SR5400. |
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Bronze Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 52 Registered: Mar-05 | AGB, Here's my standard advice: 1. Front 3 speakers + speaker stands if needed: I also like the Ascend speakers especially for amazing quality-to-cost ratio, a set of 340s across the front is about $850 shipped. The 340s would be a good size compromise for you: big enough to afford the extra driver that normal bookshelves don't have, but not as huge and bulky as floorstanders. Speaker stands ($40-140 a pair) will make a huge difference unless you're going with full-size floorstanders, having the tweeters at ear level or above is essential. Partsexpress.com, cousinsvideo.com, and accessories4less.com are places I'd shop for stands. 2. Receiver: the $400 Pioneer 1014 should be more than adequate for most non-audiophiles and arguably provides the best bang for the buck. Max would be $600 for something like a Marantz 5500. The Onkyo 601 or 602 would be adequate for anyone who's mainly doing HT and can be had for $300 or less. You can also try the Panasonic sa-xr70 all digital receiver, there's a huge thread on it at hometheaterforum.com and avsforum.com 3. First 2 surround speakers: though most receivers now give you 7 channels most people are quite happy with 5. If your budget or listening space doesn't allow for 6 or 7 channels, I'd stick to 5. If you're mainly using the system for HT you really don't need anything that great for the surrounds since your fronts will do 80% of the work---I'd go cheap with some Polk R15s or Infinity Primus 150s. Only if you intend to start an expensive collection of SACDs or DVD-As should you invest in better speakers like the Ascend 170s. 4. Additional 1 or 2 surround speakers: only if budget allows after paying for #1,2,3,4, and 5, and again I'd follow the same strategy as #5. 5. Cables, interconnects: go cheap and generic, for instance any 12-16 gauge speaker cable will do, for a typical 5.1 system it should all cost you no more than $50 altogether tops. Spending $200 in exotic wiring is highly unlikely to give you anywhere near $200 improvement in sound quality. |
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AGB Unregistered guest | Edster922, One last question, i contacted Ascend to get some specs on the 340's and asked of hanging them from the ceiling and have them angled to the desired position as opposed to floor stands. The rep did not seem to think that would be feasible as each 340 weighs 26lbs. I do believe it can be done but i am running into the issue of finding a sturdy enough mount that will hold the 340 from the ceiling. Any direction you can point me to as to where i may be able to obtain some wall/ceiling mounts for the 340's. Is this a good idea? I also checked the following - Partsexpress.com, cousinsvideo.com, and accessories4less.com - and i could not find a wall/ceiling mount that could hold 26lbs of weight. Thanks for your help once again.... Peace.... |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 482 Registered: Jan-05 | I disagree with Jim....... If your room is 18x20, dont waste money on weak little bookshelf speakers. What was he thinking??? Bookshelfs???....not unless you want a weak sounding system for your rec-room. You should be looking into large towers!!! That may have been the lamest advice I have ever seen on this forum. |
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AGB Unregistered guest | Paul, The only issue i see with towers is i am trying to avoid having floor standing speakers. I would rather have something that is out of the way and will still meet the needs of the room media/gameroom. From reading your thread, for the sound i am looking for, i guess i need to sacrifice my floor space and get towers? Thanks... Peace.... |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 487 Registered: Jan-05 | AGB, It all depends on the expectations you've set for your surround system. If the sound isnt the most important thing and your biggest concern is concealment. You'll obviously have to make some tradeoffs. In a room that large, you wont have a very realistic 'movie theater' experience if you use bookshelf speakers as your surround centerpiece. But heck....if that's not what you're striving for, then I'm way off base in my recommendation. It's all about personal preference, and there is no 'right' way to piece together any surround speaker setup. good luck, and happy shopping |
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Bronze Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 92 Registered: Mar-05 | AGB, you might want to look into using TV wall mounts then, I'm sure they can handle 26lbs...that's featherweight for a TV. Either that or some sort of shelving that is securely anchored into some studs---however the 340s and 170s need just 3 inches of clearance to the wall so you should be fine. As for Paul's advice about floorstanders, he is usually referring to his beloved 20 year old Cerwin Vegas. If you are curious, I'd recommend hearing them for yourself...my experience with towers has been that unless you have the wallet to venture into the at least $1500-and-up price range, they tend to sacrifice the mids (muddy) and highs (shrill) in order to deliver extra bass (but still nowhere as tight and accurate bass as a quality subwoofer), and the better they are the more power they are going to require to sound their best. Just my opinion---Paul and I always disagree on this one. But that's a matter of personal preference. I can tell you that people who go for speakers like the Ascends are usually more interested in accuracy, naturalness and finesse rather than sheer brute force (the old SQ vs. SPL debate that's especially common in car aduio). And my 340s pack plenty of soundstage for my needs---I'm running them off a humble 90wpc Marantz 5400 in a roughly 800 square foot space with 18 foot vaulted ceilings, and just watching "Hero" earlier tonight I needed to go no further than -15db to send my wife running out of the house, LOL. |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 489 Registered: Jan-05 | I wasnt referring to any specific brand in my recommendation....... What I was saying is that if you have a large room and want a big movie theater soundstage, you'll only be kidding yourself by purchasing tiny lightweights.(bookshelf speakers) Tiny 25lb 2-way speakers like the 340s would make nice surround speakers, but have no business being up front. Heck, those things arent any bigger than my 'little' three-way surrounds, and I couldnt imagine having something like that as a centerpiece up front. The front/center combo is the workhorse, and the vast amount of money should be spent right there. If you're going to skimp anywhere, do it with your surround or back speakers, but be sure to spare no expense up front where it counts the most and makes the biggest impression. Creating a big movie theater soundstage is relevent, and what is 'big' to one person, isnt to another. The best thing you can do is listen to a variety of speakers in person, and decide which fits your personal needs the best. You might find that small bookshelf speakers are all you need. I just happen to fall in a different camp and prefer a much larger soundstage than any bookshelf could ever create. You may feel that it's the complete opposite. To say that large towers sound 'worse' like Edster seems to always suggests is completely false. If you look at any speaker brand, the 'little brother' is often the inferior product within the line when compared to models higher up the pecking order.(bigger more expensive models within the same brand) Edsters comment is way out in left field on that one........ |
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Bronze Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 97 Registered: Mar-05 | > If you look at any speaker brand, the 'little brother' is often the inferior product within the line when compared to models higher up the pecking order.(bigger more expensive models within the same brand) Edsters comment is way out in left field on that one........ Not really, Paul. Two examples: The Polk RTi8 to my ears is far more refined in the highs and mids than the much larger and more expensive RTi10 or RTi12, which can go deeper but actually have flabbier sounding bass. Ditto with the Paradigm Monitor 5 compared to the Monitor 7, 9, and 11. Now when we're getting into the higher end towers, then you're more likely to get a QUALITY "full-range" sound rather than just boomy bass and screechy treble and weak mids. In a nutshell: a pair of $600 bookshelves like the Ascend 340s will, when paired with a good subwoofer like the Hsu VTF-2, easily roll over any $600 towers by themselves...especially mass market towers! This is again assuming that you value sound quality/finesse (accuracy, clarity, naturalness, no listener fatigue) over just sheer brute volume/power...not that there's anything inherently wrong with the latter. |
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Bronze Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 98 Registered: Mar-05 | PS. One of the reasons I believe that smaller bookshelves usually outperform towers in the same price bracket is because such low-cost towers often scrimp on cabinet construction (cheap construction can seriously degrade the sound quality), which the bookshelves don't need to because they have a much smaller cabinet. Again, unless you have deep pockets: bigger is NOT necessarily better! |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 493 Registered: Jan-05 | So the bottom of the line Paradidm sounds best to you?? hahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha Then maybe you should buy some teensy-weensy 'atoms', because smaller must be better............ or better yet, what are those tiny cubes you always see in stores???.....maybe some of those will be perfect for you since the tiny ones always sound better. LOL oh boy......you've flipped your lid. It sounds to me like you're trying WAY too hard to rationalize your decision to buy small bookshelf speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 111 Registered: Apr-04 | AGB - if you are set on mounting some bookshelf speakers against the wall, I don't think the mini monitors from Paradigm are the right speaker for you as the are rear ported and will have bass "bloom" when placed on the wall. Ideally, you should either have a sealed speaker or at least a front ported speaker. 2 nice options you might want to look into are NHT and Monitor Audio. NHT offers the SB1, SB2 and SB3 series of speakers which I believe have sealed cabinets and sound very nice (and look terrific with their lacquer finish), especially partnered with a quality sub. I would recommend you go with atleast the SB2 since you have a larger room. You can see the speakers at http://www.nhthifi.com Another option is the Monitor Audio Bronze series. The B2s are a front ported bookshelf which image very well and can be wall mounted with little consequence to their bass output. Let us know how you make out. Regards, Markus |
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Silver Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 103 Registered: Mar-05 | Paul Paul Paul, ...here we go again, ROTFLMAO! If you equate Paradigm Monitor 5s with Paradigm Atoms then you obviously have a major vision problem indeed. Either that or you're talking out of your @ss again and have never bothered to look at any pictures or seen them in person. Here's a clue for you, Paul: see, there are these things called SATELLITE size speakers (Atoms), and then there are BOOKSHELVES (Ascend 170s), and then there are MINI-TOWERS a.k.a. LARGE BOOKSHELVES (Ascend 340s, Paradigm Monitor 5s). Then there are the floorstanding TOWERS which you are so fond of. Hope I didn't just overtax your brain there, LOL. I guess it's not inconceivable that sticking your head six inches in front of speakers you *think* you're auditioning may have killed more than a few brain cells. : ) After all, party speakers like your Cerwin Vegas are famous for their ability to sterilize frogs at 50 yards are they not? LOL |