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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 505 Registered: Feb-04 | The VPI Scout is such a wonderful piece of audio equipment that it deserves a thread of its own on this forum. It does what all great audio gear is supposed to do, which is to present music that is emotionally involving and exciting. I've been playing old LPs on the table and discovering them anew. I never knew these LPs had so much life in them. I've had to re-evaluate albums I once considered mediocre, because the Scout brings out so much of the music in such a coherent way that the artists' intent comes across more clearly. The Scout isn't cheap but offers great value if listening to high-fidelity music is a high priority for you. So in the spirit of sharing with other Scout owners and those thinking about getting a Scout I offer the following comments: Cartridges for the Scout -- I'm currently using the Clearaudio Aurum Classic wood body MM cartridge, which sounds fabulous with the JMW-9 arm on the Scout. I'll soon be using a Dynavector DV20XH which came with the Scout, but was returned to the dealer for repair after being damaged during shipping. I'll report back after listening with the DV20XH. VPI actually recommends the Dynavector cartridges for the Scout. You can get the Scout with a factory installed 10X5 or 20XH or 20XL cartridge (the latter is the low-output version of the former). I've also tried a budget Goldring cartridge from my old turntable with relatively poor results. It seems the Clearaudio Aurum Classic or a cartridge of equivalent quality is necessary to get the Scout singing. Phono Stages -- I'm using the Dynavector P-75. I can't say much on this topic since I haven't tried any other phono stages with the Scout. So if you have any info to contribute or have any questions about the Scout, post away! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3248 Registered: May-04 | 2c - I've been using an HW-19 for almost twenty years now. I see on V.P.I.'s web site they have discontinued the 19 in favor of the Scout. This seems a total turn around for Weisfeld to eliminate all tables with a suspended subchassis from the lower price ranges. I've read some justifications amounting to the removal of the motor from the plinth (a modification I did to my 19 years ago) requiring less isolation of the entire system. That still, to my old analog way of thinking, means a table with more susceptiblity to external feedback. From what I understand, the Scout is resting on TipToes and nothing else to support or isolate the chassis from the outside world. What are you using for a turntable support and have you experimented with different devices to find the best shelf system for the Scout? Does V.P.I. suggest anything other than using the TipToes to isolate the table? If you're curious I described my table set up on this thread on Feb 15: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/122849.html I've been considering trying my table off the suspension and mounted on a three layer support of MDF (on top of the already three layers of MDF that my table now sits upon) and constrained damping material. I'm hesitant since I used to sell V.P.I. tables and the HW-19 vs. what was sold as the Jr. had a large diference in sound. The Jr. used a more or less nonexistent suspension and never could accomplish the sound quality of the 19. If you read my set up, you'll see it's not just a matter of lifting the table off one support and placing it on another. Tuning a suspended subchassis table takes some time and I have to convince myself I want to go through the whole procedure again if I want to return to the sprung chassis. I just find it hard to believe the TipToes alone can be that effective. I've sold and owned Rega's and other tables without a suspension and the overall impression they left was always one of lightness. Lightness is defintiely not what the HW-19 is about. What turntable/arm had you used before you bought the Scout? Any feelings about the unipivot tonearm on the Scout? It uses no antiskating; correct? |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 508 Registered: Feb-04 | JV, The unipivot tonearm definitely had me scratching my head when I first saw it. It's hard to believe that the tonearm balances on a hard metal "needle" point at one end and the cartridge stylus at the other end. But it does and it works. When you pick up the tonearm, there's a lot of play. Once the stylus starts tracking in the record groove, everything stabilizes quickly. The only anti-skating device, if you can call it that, is a cable that connects the tonearm to an output box anchored to the plinth through a Lemos connection. Twisting the cable supposedly can adjust anti-skating force on the tonearm. VPI recommends setting the tracking force at the maximum weight recommended by the cartridge manufacturer in lieu of a real anti-skating device. It seems to work as I get balanced sound from the beginning to end of the record. With the unipivot arm, you can imagine isolating the table becomes crucial. This is one area that needs improvement. Currently I have the the Scout on a thick slab of maple butcher block on top of an IKEA audio cabinet. There's definitely a resonance problem with this set up. I'll have to try something different, just haven't figured out what the best fix is yet. VPI does not recommend anything beyond the tiptoes to isolate the table. The tiptoes are adjustable to level the table, another crucial tweak with the unipivot arm. There's also rubber damping material between the tiptoes and the plinth. Despite the less than optimal set-up, the Scout sounds fantastic. IMHO it clearly sounds better than the other tts I've listened to (Michell Gyrodec and Clearaudio Champion) and worlds better than the Music Hall tt I was using previously. I'm not sure what you mean by "lightness". I would say the Scout sounds airy, meaning that the music seems to exist in real space with air around the instruments. The bass is full, weighty and musical as well. I hope you get a chance to listen to the Scout. I'd be interested to get your impressions. If you're ever in the SF bay area, you're welcome to come over and take a listen. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3251 Registered: May-04 | Lightness refers to a general lack of extension in the lowest octaves. Reaching down to get the lowest notes has always been a V.P.I. trademark. The Jr. didn't quite make those notes so obvious as the 19 and the TNT was the next table V.P.I. brought out. The TNT was definitely able to reach down to get the lowest notes. I have wondered how the nonsuspended tables from V.P.I have done by comparison. The reviews indicate they have not given up much in that respect over their previous models. Set up ease is supposed to be the strength of solid plinth tables, but as you have found out there is more to set up than just placing the table on a platform. Most non suspended tables I sold did best on a dedicated support table all to themself. Also, the sand box isolation systems usually work well with solid plinth tables. http://www.cognitivevent.com/sandbox.html I wrote a bit about isolating a table on this thread back on July 16th: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56618.html To check the actual effectiveness of the anti skating look at the cartridge from the front of the table as you move it across the record. At all points on the disc, the stylus and cantilever should be centered under the cartridge body. If the stylus is being pulled ahead or lagging behind the cartridge, you should increase the amount of skating compensation such as it is. Several manufacturers over the years have suggested skating is something that is going to happen no matter what you try to do to stop it. Since anti skating is effective only at some points on the disc, the argument is trying to apply anything is likely to cause as much bad as it will provide good. It's a hard argument to buy. Check your cartridge tracking by looking at the cartridge straight on and see if it is working satisfactorily. A unipivot arm is supposed to have the advantage of not putting large amounts of external energy into the arm itself because the point of contact between the bearing and the arm is so small. Kind of the reversed TipToe idea. What unipivots cannot do as well as captive bearings is control bearing clatter. It is a trade off of low friction vs. slightly less control. I used to have a Connosuier table with a unipivot tonearm for a while and moving the arm to the record was always a bit dicey. Is the V.P.I. arm damped in any way? |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 509 Registered: Feb-04 | Jan, thanks for the info on isolation devices/methods. To answer your questions: No, the JMW-9 arm isn't damped in any way. I would not consider the Scout sounding light based on your definition. I suppose I could watch the stylus for skating. I prefer to listen and hear how it sounds. And it sounds terrrrific! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 511 Registered: Feb-04 | Playlist in the Scout Den: Archie Shepp, Four for Trane. Impulse reissue on 180g vinyl. John Coltrane, Live at Birdland. Impulse reissue on 180g vinyl. Hank Mobley, Soul Station. Bluenote reissue on 180g vinyl. Fleetwood Mac, Rumors. Warner Bros. The Impulse reissues are a disappoint in terms of sound quality. There's too much surface noise on the vinyl. The stereo imaging is crude. The instruments are presented clearly, but doesn't match the clarity of the Bluenote reissue of Soul Station. The Bluenote vinyl is quiet, but also suffers from crude stereo imaging. The real discovery is the Fleetwood Mac LP. The sound quality is amazing. If you grew up listening to Rumors on your dad's cruddy record player, you haven't really heard this album. If you have a Scout or a good turntable and if you like Fleetwood even a little bit, this is one to pick up from the used bin at the local record shop. This is one underrated overrated album. So good I had to listen to it twice. |
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Scout 2 Unregistered guest | I built a double plinth isolation table for my Scout, it is comprised of 2 pieces of 3/4" MDF the same dims as the Scout plinth, I rounded over the sides with a router and placed three layers of an anti vibration foam between them. In addition to this I cut out a 5" x 6" section where the motor sits so the motor sits on one layer of anti vib mat., then the cut out of MDF, then two more layers of anti vib. so the motor is completely isolated. I attached four rubber feet and voila! an extremely effective isolation table. Cost me $20.00 to build and it is awesome. By the way I am using the Clearaudio Aurum Beta S Mk. 2, this makes me wonder why I ever bought my first CD. I have a friend in the digital recording industry, he told me the reason he has a job is people are too lazy to appreciate a table that sounds as good as mine. Very pleased! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 537 Registered: Feb-04 | Scout 2, Thanks for the post. It sounds like you have an excellent and affordable isolation system. It probably looks pretty sharp too. I agree completely about CDs being a convenience format. It's been discussed extensively elsewhere in this forum. The music just seems more there and alive coming off vinyl. If you have any recommendations on phono stages, recordings, or anything else having to do with vinyl playback, please post away! |
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Bronze Member Username: BlarsonPost Number: 11 Registered: Mar-05 | So I have been playing records on my Scout (with a Dynavector 10x5 MC cart) for about 2 months or so, and for the most part loving it. Instrumentals, especially jazz trios & quartets sound AMAZING. But I have been noticing some things that I can't really account for. Two things come to mind, and both are related to vocal reproduction. One is that I find "s" sounds to be a bit hissy or fuzzy. Sometimes I wonder if I'm being paranoid. Prior to this I have really only listened attentively to CDs for about 10 yrs. Anyway, high frequencies on other counts seem to reproduce well- my birdsong field recordings sound good, as do cymbals- hi-hats, rides, etc are all well-rounded and not abbrasive. But when a singer hits an "s" it just kind of has a "twinning" sound (I don't know if that's clear). Second issue- vocals sometimes seem to distort- I have noticed this mostly on older records- a 70's compilation of Johnny Cash's 60s singles or an RCA "new orthophonic" recording of "Aida"- when the tenor's voice raises to it's highest volume, distortion is evident. This seems irrespective of the volume at which I am playing the record. At least, the records are at reasonable volumes and not blasting to the point where distortion would occur anyway. Well, if anyone has any words of wisdom, or can merely talk me down, I would certainly appreciate it. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3727 Registered: May-04 | This sounds like a set up problem. If the problem is only in one channel, the answer might be the antiskating force. If the distortion and sibilance are present in both channels the most possible answer would be to start with the tracking force and the cartridge alignment. VTA might cause the same problem. How have you set these parameters. How old is the stylus? How do you clean the stylus? Some older records and remastered discs will have some amount of sibilance that was cut into the disc due to poor pressing techniques, how consistent is the problem? |
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Bronze Member Username: BlarsonPost Number: 12 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan- Thanks for your reply. The cart & stylus were new along with the table, and were installed by the dealer. I estimate the stylus has more than 60 but less than 100 hrs on it. I have yet to clean the stylus (and could use some recommendations in that regard as well). The problem as I hear it is in both channels. The distortion and sibilance seem to be more common in older records. The ones I have bought new seem to have less harshness with "s" sounds- they round off more clearly. But compared to digital they are overall not as well defined (again, I hope that description makes sense.) I used the cartridge alignment tool that came with the 'table and a Shure stylus force gauge to set the tracking force. VPI recommends that you set the tracking force to the most that the cartridge manufacturer recommends- I followed this and thus the tracking force is set at 2.2g. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3732 Registered: May-04 | I'm not clear then on who did the cartridge alignment. You or the dealer? What type of gauge came with the table, a one or two point protractor? Are you reasonably certain you have the cartridge aligned properly? Has this problem been noticeable since you first played the table or just recently? For stylus and record cleaning see the last week or so on this thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56258.html |
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Bronze Member Username: BlarsonPost Number: 13 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan- The dealer installed the cartridge. I checked it against the cartridge alignment tool that came with the 'table. I am unfamiliar with the one/two point protractor you mention, so I will describe it this way. The alignment tool is a flat, triangle-shaped piece of metal that has a hole in the center of the wide end that fits through the spindle. The tool is then set flush against the platter and goes the length of the platter. At the outer (thin) end of the tool there is a printed grid, upon which you are supposed to center the stylus. From this point you use the grid to see if the cartridge aligns with it. To my eye it did. I made no adjustments to the cartridge. The problem is something I've noticed more or less from the beginning- that is- it's bothered me the more I listen. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 607 Registered: Feb-04 | Brandon, I don't know the exact cause of the distortions you're hearing. As Jan pointed out, it could be in the set-up. In addition to his suggestions, I would also check the azimuth. I have the DV20XH cartridge on my Scout/JMW-9 and hear some unpleasant sibilance on certain LPs, but not on most. I always figured the sibilance was in the recording. A good, deep cleaning seemed to help on some of the more offensive records. Please let us know if you find the fix. Good luck. |
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Bronze Member Username: BlarsonPost Number: 14 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks 2Cents- I am going to start with the easiest fix and clean the records that have the most pronounced problems. Not coincidentally, they are the oldest records of the most dubious origin in my small collection. Any of them would playgrade at VG or better, but I will clean them thoroughly first before I take to playing with the cartridge. To be honest, adjusting the cartridge makes me a bit nervous, as I have never done it before. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the tips, hints, and wellwishing. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3744 Registered: May-04 | Cleaning should be done with a vacuum type disc cleaner. Most wet types cleaners will only loosen the dirt and then move it around the groove. When the stlyus comes through the groove it will push that dirt into the soft vinyl and then the damage becomes permanent. 2c may want to advise on the cleaning method he used. Washing the records with a diluted dishwashing liquid can remove some of the very large particles of dirt you can see, but seldom does it clean inside the grooves. If the problem you hear is mostly on older records, there could be several possible solutions. Let me discuss cartridge alignment first. I saw a picture of the V.P.I. protractor and I'm a bit suprised that it is only a one point system. With any pivoted tonearm the geometry of the design should allow the stylus to be absolutely perdendicular to the groove walls at only two points on the record. One toward the outside of the disc and another toward the inner grooves. By aligning to both these points, you are maximizing the "correctness" of the alignment. In other words you are minimizing the margin of error. Two point alignment protractors are available on line from sources such as MusicDirect. At this point I would call V.P.I. and inquire whether a two point protractor is not advised on the arm for some reason. Recheck the tracking force and antiskate as they are the most common factors in mistracking. Azimuth is generally close enough in a unipivot arm as there should be little opportunity for the arm to cant to one side. Double check this for accuracy just to eliminate the possibility. VTA is a cause for mistracking and some people will adjust VTA for each record. As long as the records are the same thickness, VTA should remain stable as the industry standard cutting angle is 20 degrees. Not all cutting heads will absolutely adhere to this so there is the possibility the same thickness record will still require adjustment. Certainly as the record thickness changes with a 150, 180 and 200 gram disc there should be some adjustment. If you are playing an older disc that was not pressed on heavy weight vinyl, there could be a substantial difference in the VTA from record to record. Some stylus profiles are more problematic than others in this regard. Another possibility is the records have been damaged by a sylus previous to what you are now using. If the records are second hand or have been played with a stylus that was either worn or simply a different profile and compliance, the groove may have been damaged and there is nothing the new stylus can do but track the damage as information. Some recordings from the later periods of vinyl production were manufactured from ground up discs that were returned to the factory due to defects. Master pressing discs were often used past the point of allowing clean pressings. Records from this period are always suspect no matter how the surface of the disc looks. There are also labels that have earned the deserved reputation of not producing very good sound. The ultrathin RCA microgroove discs are almost always going to have distortion problems. Recordings on the Angel label will always have bad sound. At this point I would suggest you try to isolate the cause of the distortion as much as possible. Is it from only older records or newer also; high level sound distortion or sibilance? Can it be associated with anything in particular that might explain the problem and its solution? After you think you can demonstrate the problen successfully and repeatably, I would give the dealer a call. If they seem unable to provide a solution, I would then proceed to V.P.I. |
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Bronze Member Username: BlarsonPost Number: 15 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan- Thanks so much for your very thorough reply. I will take this step-by-step as you suggest, and report back with my findings. Best to you all. |
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scout2 Unregistered guest | I just Added the Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated as an upgrade to my Scout...I upgraded from the Musical Fidelity X-150, very impressive. Those people who say vinyl does a poor job with bass, need to hear it through a better Amp. I wish I could afford a really high end seperate like the KW, for now I will just be very happy as things are... |