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Ben Davis Unregistered guest | Hello again, I posted here a little while ago asking for advice on my system which is no all put together and sounds great! Now, the upgrade bug is biting hard. My system is a McIntosh MA6100 driving some GMA Europas. I use and NAD 533 and an NAD c541i as my sources. Recently the upgrade bug has started to nibble at me a little and I'm thinking about losing the c541i as I've heard I can do better for the money and it may have some reliability issues a little further down the line. I've seen and read lots of good things about the Shanling cd s100 and I was wondering if this will be a significant improvement over the NAD. If it isn't, I'll probably just stick with the NAD. I can't upgrade to something that's going to cost a lot more but I think I'd be able to come out close to even with selling the NAD and buying a new Shanling (or Onix). Is this a good idea? Anyone heard both? Thanks, Ben |
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New member Username: WolfsonPost Number: 7 Registered: Jan-05 | Hello Ben, I would stick with the NAD unless you are planning to spend double. The other players sound very much the same with only minor diffrences in sound. Besides that the NAD is that good. Crack the lid you will see what im talking about. Hell the power supply is bigger than some receivers I have seen. An another note how do you like the GMA Europas ? I was looking at those a while back. My only slight concern was how they supposedly make bad recordings sound good. This seems opposite of what a speaker is supposed to do. What is you take ? Cheers, Wolf |
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Ben Davis Unregistered guest | That makes sense, I guess I'll just stick with my NAD then maybe upgrade to something else in a few years after college. So far I'm VERY happy with my Europas. They were auditioned alongside of Spendor s3/5 and Dynaudio 52s and suited my needs the best. They are not quite as warm as the Spendors but they have a little more punch which I needed for my listening habits having no plans for a sub. They were also quite a bit better than the Dynaudios. As far as making a bad recording sound good, IMO this isn't really possible. A bad recording, I think, sounds like a bad recording no matter what equipment it is played on. However, bad recordings may be slightly more listenable on these speakers. They do allow a lot of detail to shine through so that might help cut through some of the tape hiss and whatnot so the music is heard a bit better, I don't know. I listen to a lot of lo-fi and bad recordings and these speakers certainly don't make them sound like they're recorded well, but they sound better on my system now than they did before (but probably to the same degree that good recordings sound better). If you're interested in them I would certainly give them a listen. If I had a little more money a may have gone with bigger Spendors or the s3/5s and a sub, but the Europas are really great speakers and I'm extremely happy to have them in my system |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Ben - Why don't you tell us what you listen for from your system. Explain what you believe is missing from the NAD and what you hope to gain by upgrading. (Please don't say something like "good clean sound", "clear mids" or "tight bass"; those phrases, while serving a salesperson well, don't describe much of anything since every manufacturer touts those qualities in their press releases.) Moving from one piece of audio to another piece of audio, whether more expensive or not, is a futile exercise in spending money if there is no plan involved in the process. To get the most out of any upgrade you first have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your system and the character you wish to have your system put forth. Maybe if you can explain what you are hearing and what you want to hear, there can be more serious recommendations made to actually help you along. I'm not looking to say the previous writer is incorrect, but the NAD can be bettered. It is a matter of what you want in your system sound and what you are willing to spend. It also involves what can you hear before you make a purchase. Just buying equipment because it gets favorable reviews is throwing money away in many cases if you wish to have a top notch system for the least amount of money. |
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Ben Davis Unregistered guest | I've been listening to a lot of vinyl lately and it has really shown me the shortcomings of my cd player. I've really been enjoying the overall smoother sound that LP's have to cd. It also sweems to have a better high range (I'm not sure if sweeter is the word or not). I would like to get this out of my cd player as much as I can. There is nothing that I really dislike about the NAD, I just thought maybe I could do better and end up with a cd player that sounds more like my turntable. I know that it will never happen, I've read many debates and I know that it will never sound just like a turntable, I would maybe like it to be a little closer thoguh. |
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New member Username: WolfsonPost Number: 8 Registered: Jan-05 | If youre looking for something that sounds close to vinyl maybe the Rega Planet or Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000 would give what your looking for. The Ah player is only available through upscaleaudio.com. It is a tube based unit and runs 699 but can be modified and upgraded. Wolf |
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New member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, Tx Post Number: 8 Registered: May-04 | Help me out with "smoother" and "sweeter". What does that mean to you? |
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Silver Member Username: TevoChicago, IL USA Post Number: 131 Registered: Feb-05 | Take your pick: Smoother: -Having a surface free from irregularities, roughness, or projections; even. -Having a fine texture: a smooth fabric. -Free from hair, whiskers, or stubble: felt his smooth cheek after the close shave. -Having a short dense flat coat. Used of dogs. -Having an even consistency: a smooth pudding. -Having an even or gentle motion or movement: a smooth ride. -Having no obstructions or difficulties: a smooth operation. -Serene: a smooth temperament. -Bland: a smooth wine. -Ingratiatingly polite and agreeable. -Having no grossness or coarseness in dress or manner. Sweeter: -Having the taste of sugar or a substance containing or resembling sugar, as honey or saccharin. -Containing or derived from sugar. -Retaining some natural sugar; not dry: a sweet wine. -Pleasing to the senses; agreeable: the sweet song of the lark; a sweet face. -Pleasing to the mind or feelings; gratifying: sweet revenge. -Having a pleasing disposition; lovable: a sweet child. -Kind; gracious: It was sweet of him to help out. -Fragrant; perfumed: a sweet scent. -Not saline or salted: sweet water; sweet butter. -Not spoiled, sour, or decaying; fresh: sweet milk. -Free of acid or acidity: sweet soil. -Low in sulfur content: sweet fuel oil. -Music. Of, relating to, or being a form of jazz characterized by adherence to a melodic line and to a time signature. -Used as an intensive: took his own sweet time to finish; earns a sweet million per year. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, Tx Post Number: 12 Registered: May-04 | Thank you. Mr. Webster. Now, if possible, I would prefer an answer from Ben. |
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Ben Davis Unregistered guest | With both of those things I just meant that vinyl seems a little less harsh. It seems a lot of times that the highs on my cd player can sound overly metallic or something and they are more detailed on vinyl (which is kind of what I meant by sweeter). I don't really want to sacrifice any detail by going to another cd player either. Maybe there isn't something that can do what I want in this range of player but hopefully there is. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, Tx Post Number: 21 Registered: May-04 | Well you certainly aren't the only person to feel CD playback is a bit on the metallic side, most importantly when compared to LP playback. Early in CD's history, even the players that were getting rave reviews in some quarters were still considered less that "perfect sound" by many critics. Fortunately, things have improved in the past twenty years. There are still the digital players that make the fillings in your teeth ring, but overall the existence of products such as the Shanling, Rega, Tjoeb and even the NAD have made CD playback more listenable at lower prices. It is somewhat unusual to have the NAD product described as metallic. That is an adjective that isn't normally applied to the NAD line. That doesn't mean you are not hearing that quality of playback from your CD system, particularly in comparison to LP. It could mean you might find better response with different cables or a few tweaks that are typically applied to CD playback at any price level. You are thinking correctly that the best way to balance your system is to have all sources giving a consistent sound quality. The problem is how to do this when you are on a budget. Lateral moves in HiFi are seldom beneficial. If your budget is not able to stretch to a player that is obviously superior to the NAD, I would tend to suggest you take your time with this upgrade. No matter what you buy today, there will be a player that gets better reviews tomorrow. Listen to what you are considering before you decide to go further. Don't buy a product based solely on reviews.* Listen to as many players in your probable price range as possible; the more you hear, the better the choice you can make when the time comes. As long as the NAD is working, there should be no hurry, it will bring more or less the same amount of resale tomorrow as it will today. If it breaks before you've heard everything - well, you were right about reliability. If you've been listening to players, you will still be in a good position to choose your next player. In the interim, I would suggest you try improving the NAD with cables and accessories. Try some footers and some damping materials. (If you are adventurous, there are often components inside the player that can be replaced to give better sound quality.) For the most part you can choose aftermarket items that can also benefit your next player also. If, in the end, the NAD seems to be the weak point in your system, then it will be time to explore the best player you can comfortably afford. *The upgrade bug is endemic to any audiophile. If you read the periodicals that fill you in on the activity in this hobby, you will always be faced with a new product that produces sound quality the reviewer has never experienced at this price level. I would suggest you do not get cynical about the revolving door of recommended products. Your experience with the Mac integrated amp should suggest that if a product is well designed and well built, it will provide very good sound for years to come. Look for the components that will satisfy over the next twenty years. If you have to buy them used, then you will generally still be ahead of the game. Consider that the magazines have a product to sell. They seldom are in the position to promote a particular audio product. They are too busy selling you their magazine. The headlines and articles stating, "The Best CD Player Ever", are there to get you to buy the magazine, not the CD player. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 503 Registered: Feb-04 | And to attract advertising dollars from the manufacturer. About 10 years ago I was set to buy a NAD cd player, because that was THE budget cd player to get at the time. I went to the local hi-fi dealer and listened to it and was suitably impressed. The sales guy recommended I listen to a California Audio Lab cd player which cost a bit more. I had never heard of CAL before. Comparing the two cdps, I thought the CAL sounded warmer, smoother and more detailed, i.e., more like analog. Although I had my heart and wallet set on the NAD, I walked out with the more expensive CAL cdp. It wasn't even a difficult decision. I still have the CAL unit, but when I compare it now to a really good analog rig, it just doesn't come close to matching the "rightness" of analog sound. A couple of recent cd players I've listened to, the Jolida JD100 (?) unit, the Musical Fidelity X series (player and dac), and Arcams in the same price range as the MF, sounded really good for the money. They were used to audition other gear. Different sonic characteristics for each...must listen to see if you like... but still does not come close to analog... maybe there's a 10 grand player out there that does... who knows |
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Ben Davis Unregistered guest | Maybe I should forget about my cd player...I've stopped buying cds in favor of vinyl (whenver possible) so maybe money could be used to upgrade my cartridge or mod my arm. That may be a better route. |
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Unregistered guest | Can only wonder what a fanatical Shrevie (Daniel Stern) in "Diner" would do if offered a digital alternative to vinyl: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10310&page Gets interesting on Page 2, post #32. |
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mauimusicman Unregistered guest | Ben, the Europa's are VERY revealing of interconnect cable upgrades. You might want to start there. As far as CDP's go, have a listen to the ones mentioned by others in this thread or right now, AV-123 has the Onix XCD-88 HDCD on sale at $299.00 This player is identical to the Shanling S-100 / Music Hall CD-25 for a fraction of the cost. They offer a full 30 day money back warranty, so all you'd be out is shipping. This unit sounds great. Also, leave your CDP on 24/7/365 Digital devices emit VERY little heat so it takes them a LONG time to warm up. You will notice it sounding better. The Europa's make so called bad recordings listenable because of their time/phase aligned principles. Sure there are better recordings and worse recordings, but there are no longer "unlistenable" recordings. One more thing: The Europa's improve dramatically during breaking. I'm sure Roy told you about this. Here's the link to AV-123 if interested: http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=25.1 |
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mauimusicman Unregistered guest | Wolf, at the risk of starting a lengthy who's right argument, may I inject that perhaps there are no really bad recordings? Just bad speakers. Ever thought about it that way? The Europa can not magically make a bad recording better. Thats not possible, is it? Think about it. So, why then, do so called bad recordings sound better on the Europa? Simple. The speaker is not adding phase shift to the recording's playback. This is no different than listening to single driver systems like Lowthers, Fostex, etc or Electrostatics. The Europa happens to be an affordable time/phase aligned system that uses more than one driver. Quite difficult to design, engineer and implement, but they are, as the original poster pointed out, a very fine speaker. Do some research on phase shift and it's audability in music if you want to know more, or give a call to Roy Johnson, the designer at (719) 636-2500. Ben, the Europa's are VERY revealing of interconnect's so that might be a good place to start. The CDP's the others listed are very fine players. For the audiophile on a budget, allow me offer this jewel. AV-123 currently has on sale the Onix XCD-88 HDCD player for $299.00 US dollars. This player is identical to the Shanling S-100/ Music Hall CD-25 for a lot less money. Here's the link if your interested. They have a full 30 day money back policy. http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=processors&product=25.1 |