NEED HELP! Went nuts and bought Pioneer Elite 43" Plasma TV 910HD with HDMI input. Also bought an Elite 59AVI DVD Player with HDMI input. Now I need to get the receiver and speakers. Trying to decide between the new Denon 3805 or the Elite 55txi and either Klipsch, Paradigm, or Sonance in-wall speakers. Love great movies and very clean audio. HELP PLEASE
Just a cent of advice, between the two, go with Denon 3805. Never on any pioneer elite model receivers. Their sound is a total failure compared with other receivers.
The above poster is totally misinformed, to put it politely. As many regulars here know I had the Denon 3803 and hated it and have had the Elite 45 for about a year and find it much better in many ways,especially sound quality. The main thing to tryto do is match your receiever and speakers as best as possible. The Elite 55 is a much better match with Klipsch or Monitor or any speaker on the bright side than Denon. My local Klipsch dealer sells both recievers and it's not even close. If you decide on Paradigms's then the Denon might not be too bad, but my experience with the 3803 was just awful and I have not heard the 3805 so I can't tell you if it sounds like the 3803. Hope not. Between the two the current Elite's have better power supplies than the Denon's although the Denon's power supplies are not terrible. Depends on what kind of sound you want and what speakers you decide on. IMO go with the Elite.
OK, So what your telling me is I should decide on speaker first then receiver. I like a clean, crisp sound, and need the in-wall speakers (wife requires) and then will match with receiver. Local dealer sells both the elite and the denon and also the Klipsch & paradigm in-walls. Still confused and am exhausted by the reseach. Any more assistance? People seem to have strong feelings on both sides. I don't want to screw up my $7000 plasma purchase with the wrong receiver!
You are far more likely to screw up your purchase with the wrong speakers than the wrong receiver. The best receiver in the world won't make a mediocre or even good speaker sound great. A great speaker will generally sound great when driven by a mediocre receiver, as long as the power envelope is adequate.
As most people have little experience here with high quality in-wall speakers it is a tough advisement.
Not being fond of horn tweeters I would stay away from the Klipsch. I heard that Definitive Technology was making some good in-wall speakers--but I doubt the best Def Tech or Paradigm in-wall speakers compare with their best speakers.
But if your marraige depends on in-wall speakers--you are stuck.
If you are going by what your local dealer carries, it doesn't give you much latitude in choice.
But there is no choice to me since you have the 59AVi. It has i-link---it is crazy not to get a 55TXi, a 49TXi, or 59TXi. With the i-link you don't use other audio connects and the 59AVi you own automatically "shakes hands" with the i-link receiver and knows whether you are playing a cd, dvd, dvd-audio, sacd, or whatever. Plus the i-link (firewire) has enormous bandwidth, so you get optimum performance.
Buying all this stuff from a dealer I hope he is giving you at least 15-20% off minimum. And setting it up.
Confused on the Ilink. First, I got the 59avi because it had an hdmi connection and so does the elite plasma. I assumed that this would give me the best possible picture as you bypass the requirement to convert. With that connection does the ilink come into play in this scenario or is the ilink now redundant? Also, There are 3 dealers in the area that sell in-wall (Triad, Sonance, Klipsch, & Paradigm) They range from $700 to $1000 per pair. Was leaning towards the Denon until your message. Is the ilink a performance advantage or a conveinance advantage. Basically, what the hell is Ilink and how much of an advantage will I get if I stay within the same line of manufacturer in this case.
Post of therealelitefan for his 3803 is based on his opinion only. Since he have not heard of the 3805, he also did not recommend it which I presume is based on his 3803 opinion also. Since he is particular only on the power supply and not on sound quality, he missed out the point that DENON is far sonically superior than Pioneer. I would also recommend to pair paradigm with Denon. Bottomline, Denon outperforms Pioneer elite models. From the looks of his name, there's no way he can accept that there are better receivers than elite.
I completely disagree, Ewan. I too have a PE 45tx and I love it. The sound is incredible. Denon to me sounded fake and dry. My name doesnt say elite fan or anything - I just like good sound and thats why I chose PE over Denon and such.
OK Ewan, what about the points that Gman makes. Is it better to stay within the same line since I bought the Elite Plasma and the Elite DVD player with the ilink or should I still throw in the Denon receiver into the mix? (Still don't understand what the advantage of ilink is).
To take advantage of your dvd players firewire (i-link) capabality which you paid for, you need a compatible firewire (i-link) receiver. The advantages of i-link are it is totally digital, you only need to connect the i-link of the dvd player to an i-link receiver and you will get better audio on everything, with a huge advantage on DVD-Audio and SACD (when it goes totally digital) in bass management and performance. Firewire (i-link) is a very fast broadband connection. As no receiver yet as HDMI connection you need to connect the HDMI directly to your plasma set. But as there are no speakers on the plasma set and you wouldn't want to listen to cheesy tv speakers even if their are, you want to use the i-link connection to your receiver to take advantage of the speakers you are buying. I-link is also a great connection between the receiver and a separate HDTV receiver, such as is offered on the top of the line HDTV receivers by Samsung, Sony, and Zenith.
Sadly, Pioneer hasn't included HDMI on any AV receiver yet. I think Onkyo will be coming out with an AV surround receiver with firewire and HDMI in April---I think it is called the Onkyo TN-1000. It will be expensive and probably list at $4,000--meaning you might get it at around $3,000 if you are lucky. This means you could connect both the i-link and HDMI to the receiver and connect the receivers HDMI to the plasma set a run everything from the receiver and all other video connections would probably be upconverted to use the HDMI connection.
Now I don't know if connecting the HDMI from the DVD player to the plasma will interfere with the i-link on the Pioneer---I doubt it. But unless you have an HDMI AV receiver the HDMI connection to the plasma is of no more benefit than connecting a DVI, which is the digital video portion of an HDMI connection. HDMI also includes a digital audio connection, but you cannot drive anything from the plasma set but video, unless the plasma set has an outbound i-link to the receiver for audio.
So you either wait for the Onkyo or an even more expensive Integra or Meridian, you read the manual and find out if connecting the HDMI interferes with the i-link, or you buy an inexpensive HDMI/DVI adapter and connect the dvd player directly to the plasma set via DVI and the audio directly to the AV surround Pioneer Elite receiver via i-link. If your plasma set doesn't come with an HDTV tuner (probably better if it doesn't as better ones are usually available), you connect another i-link from the AV receiver to the HDTV receiver and connect the HDTV receiver to the plasma set via DVI, i-link, or component---whichever is available, for watching any HDTV broadcasts.
With the T-REX chipset in the 59AVi dvd player you will be able to upconvert standard dvd discs at 480 to 1081 pixels, or 720p depending on the set-up. A big advantage.
All that said--I wouldn't consider buying a non-firewire (i-link) receiver with your dvd player. In addition, the i-link connection also transmits all information about the disc to the receicer---so you could even have your receiver on dvd and put in a cd and it will automatically switch to cd. And there will be more firewire components in the future--actually there are now---and you can daisy chain a lot of firewire compnents with no loss of information.
First of all I use the handle of "elitefan" only because I wanted to use something and anon is just plain stupid if you want to be a regular poster. Anyone who has read my posts knows that this Ewan guy is full of crap and that I often recommend many other brands besides Elite. I would probably not even have an Elite if NAD or Rotel were not so skimpy on their inputs. Again, I have owned two Denons, the 2802 which I liked and the 3803 which was awful. The Elite is much better sonically than the 3803 especially with brighter speakers. I have heard the Elite's and Denon's side by side with Klipsch for several years and the Denon's are way to thin and bright for a speaker like that or my Monitor's. Denon is ok with a speaker like Paradigm generally but I wouldn't trust enough to buy another one after my experience with the 3803. I like lots of different brands so I would appreciate it if people like Ewan would stop twisting what I say and learn to read and comprehend.
I have an Pioneer Elite in my family room matched with Energy speakers to listen to Music. I also have an Denon 1804 with Mission m35 speakers in my bonus room to watch movies. I love them both. For movies i find my Denon to be better and for music i listen to my Elite. So go with the one that sounds the best for you. I like them both.
OK you guys convinced my to go with the Elite 55txi as the best option since I bought the Pioneer Plasma and the DVD player. Now the speakers. I have to have in-wall so i'm looking at Klipsch & Paradigm both at $799 a pair or the 200 watt Sonance at $1000 per pair. The center I don't need in-wall so I can get anything and the rear will be in-ceiling, but I'm less concerned about those. I love both music and great movie audio so my top concern is not to screw up the front left & right. I want to go with the sonance to help out a differnt local guy,(instead of buying all from one dealer), but I'll choose Klipsch or Paradigm if the shoe fits. Willing to up the budget and introduce another in-wall maker if necessary.
I am far to scared to recommend in-wall speakers in primary audio and video rooms.
I only use ceiling speakers in non-critical listening areas.
I can toe-in my bookshelf speakers, vary their placement to enhance sound, among other things.
I'd be too scared on an expensive system to have in-wall speakers. If I were you I would first listen to a good regular speaker home theatre set-up and then have your dealer take you to at least 2 or 3 of his in-wall installations so you can mentally compare them. You better first hear if you like that sound. I'd hate to spend around $20K on a system and feel like I was jumping off a cliff on speakers. I certainly WOULD NEVER buy in-wall speakers I hadn't heard first in an installation.
Hi Jeff, If you want to use the ilink feature then go ahead with elite but if your'e after the sound performance, then I would still suggest you go with the Denon. Since you have already made up your mind from your recent post, I guess you already did some auditioning. If not and you just based it on others opinion, I would suggest that you test it for yourself. In this way, you could give others your observations as well. Bottom line, it still depends on the listeners preference. As for elitefan's previous post, you would see, its the elite model for him that is far better superior than NAD, ROTEL, H/K, etc. And as for sgtpeper, again its only your opinion.
Ewan, I have never said that I thought the Elite's are "far better superior" than NAD, Rotel, H/K etc. Where you get that idea is beyond me. If you would actually read what I have said maybe you would comprehend that for my system my options are limited to just a few brands due to the limited inputs of many brands, such as NAD and Rotel. If NAD had enough inputs for me I would probably own one. Elite's are not superior to NAD or Rotel and I have never said that. Elite's are superior to Denon and Yamaha IMO especially with Monitor Audio speakers which I currently own. You must remember I am a former Yamaha lover and have been disappointed with their products lately, especially in the digital age. I think we should all buy whatever we like and it's great there are so many choices but do not put words in my mouth or twist what I post here.
Jeff, I hope you enjoy the Pioneer Elite. And I second Gman's opinion on the in-walls, use them only after you are certain the sound will work for you. I find that towers are best, then bookshelves, then wall speakers. However, I am sure there are exemplary models in each of the lower categories.
If in-wall and in-ceiling speakers are a must--I repeat--have the dealer either demonstrate them in that situation--or better yet--have him take you over to at least two customers who have those in-wall installations. At minimum, have any dealer that recommends and installs them that they have to pass your "good listening" test or you won't pay. If they won't go along with that--then my attitude would be--"If you don't have confidence in them, why should I?"
Don-- I don't think towers are any better than bookshelf speakers. A quality tower with excellent bass is good in stereo apllications, but if you are using one or two subwoofers they certainly have no necessary benefit over bookshelf speakers.
I often find towers throw a bigger soundstage for obvious reasons. but they often image not as well as quality bookshelf speakers. In surround systems I generally prefer quality bookshelf speakers, unless you are putting towers all the way around and can do without subwoofers.
Actually, neither is inherently better or worse. You can find great towers and great bookshelf speakers and never want for any other speaker again. That is--until you hear a better speaker at a dealers or someones house --hah.
Last point. I went to buy the DVD player and the dealer said that they opened it to "test it" as a matter of procedure. This seemed strange to me and made me wonder if it was a demo although they are an elite dealer and should be reputable. Has anyone ever heard of doing a quality check on a DVD player. Also, I have read that the new Sonance Cinema Ultra II ($1800 per pair & THX Ultra II Certified) in-walls made a rather large splash at this years trade show. I'll test them, but it's hard to find the high end in-walls actually in-stock. Can anyone comment on Sonace.
I would tell the dealer--"I don't buy pre-opened boxes of compnents that are sold as new as a matter of procedure"
If he isn't lying I would be shocked. It is almost like a supermarket telling you they opened the can of coffee first to test the quality. If the dealer feels his merchandise requires pre-openning, he shouldn't carry it.
I would be suprised if it wasn't a demo or a return. Being an authorized dealer does not give someone character and honesty. I might buy the player at 30% off at minimum unless they supply a new unopened box. No doubt he will palm the opened box to someone else with the same story.
I must say my opinion of the dealer isn't high.
I don't know if the Sonance won any awards at the 2004 CES show or not. It may have made a splash with Sonance Corp. and reps of Sonance and THX people who sell cfertifications. But who told you it MADE A SPLASH--? If you can read it in a reputable magazine okay----if a dealer says it with nothing to back it up (not even a magazine review, I wouldn't believe it--whether true or not. Particularly from a dealer that says he opens dvd players to check for quality. Gee--I know business can be hard, but BS from a lot of these guys never ends.
This is not to say the Sonance in-walls are not good, great or mediocre. I don't know and the THX Ultra specs will only tell you so much. There are plenty of THX speakers that are bookshelf and I like them and there are those I don't.
Again, I hope he has installed them in someone's house so you can listen. Otherwise you are flying blind and on the dealers vested interest in selling them.
There are a lot of new in-wall speakers from many reputable speaker companies. Sonance "cut their teeth" on making architectural speakers, rather than speakers of very high quality. These may be great, good, or mediocre. Buyer beware.
elitefan, pls. check your post from other threads. I do remember that you mentioned in one of your post that Elite's are better. I too was an owner of pioneer, denon, H/K and Yamaha. Like you, I auditioned them and understand their strong and weak points. We may not agree on what is best on your ears may not be mine. Bottomline, it boils down to the listeners preference.
Again, I have never said that Elite's are better than all other brands. For my needs and ears they are better than the other brands I can consider. Selective reading is a real art form and some on this board have it mastered, that's for sure.
Ewan and Elitefan, Start a new thread specifically for your bickering and be done with it. That way I can tune in when I want to instead of having to find a Ewan vs. Elitefan takeover in every thread. (Elitefan as you know I respect you opinions most of the time. I gave you the link for the euro-45tx face off, remember.)
Greg, Bookshelf speakers can be as good as Towers (maybe I wasn't too clear on my first declaration), however, I meant that many Towers sound good without a sub and you get a larger selection for lower frequency crossover points when using them, as you know. Bookshelves can attain the same highs and in most cases midrange frequencies (and as such their imaging is the same and can be perceived as better because of the lack of non-directional lower frequencies.) But a consumer must be double certain on the lower end frequency range extention before buying a set. Some bookshelves may go down to say 80hz dramatically well while others have a dramactic decible rolloff and sound lacking in the upper-bass and possibly the lower midrange. Some bookshelves cut it and can equal the majority of towers, some don't. I use a 15" sub myself, but for impact and strength, not to pick up where my towers can lack in music. So I guess I was stating you have to be more picky when selecting bookshelves, that's all.
Ricky
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Jeff, VSX-AX5i[55TXi] is one of the best sounding machines in the market today.since I am living in taiwan this model came out before it was available in the united states.I myself have used 3801,3803,A11SR[4800]A1SR[the denon flagship 5803] all of these models are wonderfully crafted and topnotch sounding machines around today. but before I bought 55txi,my last reciever was yamaha DSP-AZ1[RX-Z1]and according to my ears that was the best reciever I have ever owened and still miss that.If you are a movie fan consider yamaha. but If you love both movies and music then go for the ELITE.I currenly have the elite 55i connected to 858i via ilink and I am going to stay with it for a very very longtime.[ my speakers are B&W 9NT]
Don, I understand your point and will refrain from responding to Ewan's inane comments from now on. Sorry, but this has been frustrating for me also to have to deal with someone who seems to be living in a fantasy world. I appreciated your heads up on the euro test and wish more people on this board would read it. Maybe their eyes would be opened a bit.
but how can his posts be misleading? if he likes the pioneer receivers...and he thinks they are superior...that's how he feels. this board (every board) is chock full of posts in which someone is relaying their opinion of a product. usually touting how product 'a' is superior to product 'b'.
if any of the readers cannot distinguish fact from opinion, or weigh the value of the comments...then they may have more serious problems than which receiver to purchase. each post needs to be evaluated and many taken with a grain of salt.
i do agree that most will have to judge for themselves...by listening/touching the products. places like these are an invaluable tool in the 'pre-screening' process however.
Excellent point about the opened box line. I pick up the DVD player tomorrow and will question him on it. If he blinks, I'll wait for a freshly minted box. Also, the price for the 55txi was $1080 and the price for the 59avi was $1030. The other elite dealer (about 30 miles away, was $1499 for the 55txi and $1299 for the DVD player). What is the normal price for these two items from a store (non internet sales). As these prices seemed too good.
Those prices are very fair for a brick and mortar store that is an authorized dealer. And they are even fairly good for an authorized internet dealer, particularly for the 59AVi. Hopefully that price doesn't go up for not buying the open box. It shouldn't if the dealers story is true. Of course, if he pauses and says there has been a slight price increase from Pioneer for new ones coming in you will know he was jiving you about the reason for opening the dvd player box.
All that said the price for the dvd player still isn't bad. I paid about $1,000 delivered from an authorized dealer. Main advantage was saving sales tax. But this dealer is many states away. I would have paid $1,030 with sales tax if a local dealer had it at that price.
Ricky
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Somebody please tell me, how could a guy like EWAN KADITO become a bronce member of this message board?
Bad news guys. Got the receiver, got the DVD player, & got the plasma. Everything looks awesome, but then I hit a snag. All the top quality in-walls drive at less than 8 ohms (mostly in the 4 to < 4 range). The guys at the high end shop locally say I should really get an AMP and use the Elite receiver as a pre-amp if I want to get a top quality in-wall because the Elite will die a death if it has to drive 5 speakers pushing 4 ohms or less. I've checked the specs of about 4 of the top in-wall manufacturers and they all are spec'd at <4 ohms. Recommendation was to get an AMP and drive the L & R in-walls while letting the elite drive the C, and two rears. Your comments please!
Ricky
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Jeff, If you want to get clean,crisp and top quality sound you should add a power amp to your system.I have two ROTEL [200x5,200x2] to drive my B&W 9NTS while using 55i only as a pre amp.And the sound is excellent.So I strongly reccomend to add a suitable power amp or two to your near perfect top quality system. 55txi is a state of the art product and you will never be disappointed. GOOD LUCK!
Ricky, Do I need 2? or will 1 suffice. (my budget for Power AMP @$1000) How much for the ROTEL? This is the direction that I'm heading. Also, the speakers that I'm looking at are made by Induction Dynamics (which sound awesome).
Anonymous here
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He deserves it Ricky. Unlike you??????
Anonymous here
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Jeff, Am using my RXV-1400 as pre/amp for Surrounds and Rotel RMB-1075 for powering my Fronts and center. Great performance for both.
Ricky
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Jeff,I am sorry for the late response to your question.If you are planing to spend $1000 then you can consider ROTEL RMB-1075 But it is only 120 watt.how about the watts of your speakers? since it is very important if you can match it with the power amp in order to get a balanced and rich sound performence.OK,then the price I paid for my amp [RMB-1095 200x5]was about $2500.But may be the price is much lower in the united states than here in TAIWAN while got the other one [200x2] for a little more than $1000. Hope to here from you again.
Ricky
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Posted on
Someone finally has answerd my question about that boring guy. May be you are the only one who thinks " He deserves it Ricky." Hay, mistery guest why don't you have guts to post your name?
Having more power in an amp for your speakers is farv safer than less power. With less power you can get clipping and cause damage. With twice as much power as the speakers normally require your limit is the distortion caused by the speakers, not by the amp. Hence when you start hearing distortion you just back off on the volume. You don;t destroy speakers with too much power---only by ignoring the distortion. You are far more likely to cause destruction of amp or speakers through clipping of underpowered aamps.
You can get Outlaw Audio amps online, NAD amps, or ATI is a very good company. I have a friend that is a dealer and I am sure I could get you a good deal on ATI or NAD amps--even Aragon. Depends how many channels of amplification tou want.
All these amps will drive 4 ohm speakers fine. The Pioneer Elite might be okay for it, but it would be a process of you watching carefully while playing the speakers loud with your hand on the receiver checking for overheating. If you can afford it, better to get another amp.
Anonymous here
Unregistered guest
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Is your real name Ricky? Why don't you register your real name either? Who's the MAN?????
RICKY REISER
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Hi,Mr.mistery guest, My name is already in the registration list.I did it before your last message appeared above mine. but you are still going anonymous here.STRANGERS are dangerous......?
No Name
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Anonymous here
Find another forum for your insanity!
The MAN with no name!!!!
RICKY REISER
Unregistered guest
Posted on
OK mistery guest, looks like you are getting angry,which will make you old sooner than later. so, I decided to back off .you are the winner.it is getting soooo... boring.this posting area is for the people who are really in need of help.everybody in this forum knows who is insane and who is not.Anyway we should forgive him for posting messages about AV recievers with NO KNOWLEDGE or understanding about them.
I would like to add to the debate.... I currently have Klipsch speakers RF3, RC3, RCW5 & RSW12. I am looking for new reciever/DVD (had Yamaha RX-V800 originally and not too impressed but OK) for my newly built home theater room (24x15) and have been considering the Denon 3805 & DVD-2900. I have not been able to audition the new 3805 yet and wonder if anyone has feed back on this system?
Will the new Denon 3805 be too bright w/ Klipsch or is the above thread just speculation?
I am looking for the best receiver / universal DVD with a fire-wire like feature for SACD & DVD-audio in this price range for music & HT.
Also, does anyone have any experience with the Sony KDF-60XBR950? This maybe my TV choice......
Any thoughts?
With Name
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Anonymous here is not insane. I find him more intellectual than who post as No Name.
Anon heredy
Unregistered guest
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Why would I get angry? And look who's insane. How would anyone knows in this forum who is insane or not? These are all opinions. And how would you know that you have a better understanding of AV receivers when you are not an Electronics Engineer, while I am. I don't want to be rude to you Ricky Reiser if that's your realname. I guess...
RICKY REISER
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Ok Anon, Since my last post,I decided not to respond to any comments.but let me tell you just one thing. I work for PIONEER since 1991.
Anon Heredy
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Posted on
No problem. Goodluck!
RICKY REISER
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Thanks Anon.same to you.
Bryan
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I have a question: I currently have a 45TX and just sold my Yamaha 3200. I am also considering the 55TXI and 3805 (when it is released) to replace the Yamaha. Since I currently have a 45TX in the living room, I know first hand about the sound and quality of PE. But, I have never owned a Denon receiver. The 3805 is very rich in features (component video up-conversion, 100MHZ component bandwidth, auto setup(same as PE), Dolby PLIIx) and cheaper than the Elite. It seems most who have posted prefer the 55TXI. Is the Denon really sonically inferior and too bright compared to the Elite?
I doubt that anyone here has had any experience with the Denon 3805 as I am not sure it has even hit the dealers yet.
My experience with two different receivers that have component video up-conversion is that it didn't seem to noticeably improve the picture, but it allowed the usage of the component input on your tv, rather than have to use an S-Video along with your component hook-up.
While the list price may be cheaper, I doubt the street prices will be very different. You can get a 55Txi for anywhere from $988 to $1080.
With the Denon-link (their version of firewire)you have to get a Denon dvd player to take advantage of Denon-link. It is not a universal firewire, for some reason. While it has been a couple of months since I looked, the cheapest Denon dvd player that had Denon-link listed at $1950. Maybe street price around $1500. Maybe they have less expensive Denon-link dvd players now--I don't know.As I use a 5.1 system (even though I have a 7.1 receiver)PLIIx is no benefit to me. If you have a 7 speaker set-up then PLIIx will matrix the 6th and 7th channel out of the two regular surrounds. 6th and 7th speakers are best used behind the listeners position, while the regular surrounds are optimally placed parallel to the listening position. In my upstairs room I sit against a wall--so a 6th and 7th speaker is not in the cards or advisable. If you have at least 3 or 4 feet behind your chair or sofa then it might be of interest to you.
On the 55TXi the firewire (i-link) is universal. The i-links are particularly good for hooking up to a 47AVi dvd player which you can get at around $650-$700 or the new 59AVi which I bought at $975. On the PE you can also link the firewire to a firewire equipped HDTV receivers, HDTV's, D-VHS, and other firewire devices.
I get the impression from reading Denon literature that you are "bound" to Denon-link products or you can't use the Denon-link.
My opinion: The Denon is most likely an excellent receiver and looks like it has nice amplification. The distressing part is that the firewire is useless unless you use Denon products. So if you plan on buying a Denon-link DVD player (and they are excellent--and so far very expensive), this would be a great receiver. And you would need one of those dvd players to take advantage of the SACD/DVD-A control capabilities built into the receiver communicating with the player. So if SACD/DVD-A is importaqnt to you--plan on spending a lot more money. And unless they make adaptive devices, you will never be able to hook Denon-link to a firewire HDTV or HDTV receiver, unless Denon starts making those products.
The Pioneer Elite firewire can hook up to any firewire---maybe with the exception of Denon dvd player, probably.
Basically it comes down to the features you want and the flexibility (or lack of flexibility) you are willing to have.
Whatever money you may save on the receiver, you will lose far more if you want to use the d-link. Basically Denon is saying--"you can choose any color as long as it is white"
Now, I am sure Denon will eventually come out with less expensive d-link dvd players.
Bryan
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Posted on
Thank you Greg for the info. It is very helpful. I am very interested in the 59AVI since I have 2 HDTVs, one that has DVI input. From your experience, how much better is the DVD picture after being upconverted through the DVI outputs on the 59? Since the 59 is much cheaper than the comparable Denon DVD player with upconversion, that is one major selling point of the Elite!
I took the dvd player over to my neighbor that has a new Pioneer Elite Plasma with HDMI connections. There are adapters for HDMI to DVI, as HDMI is essentially a DVI with a digital audio attached in the same wire. Within a year or two a lot more receivers will have HDMI and most HDTV's too.
I have only tested those capabilities on my neighbors Pioneer Elite Plasma set. I would need to buy a 1080i HDTV to see if there is a dramatic difference. This much my neighbor and myself agree on---attached via HDMI to his plasma TV it played better than his Denon 2900. Even without upconverting, the picture looked great. With the TREX chip engaged it looked even more film-like. But is hard to say how I would quantify that. I would need to hook it up to a 1080 HDTV to see if it is a very dramatic difference. But the audio and video was and is excellent.
I would recommend that you go to a store that has one connected to an HDTV and see if you like it.
I have been delaying my purchase of a new HDTV until the thin DLP's come out this summer. Although by the end of the year Intel is supposed to be releasing their 1920 x 1080 LCOS system to various HDTV manufacturers.
I will say this--the Denon 2900 and the more upscale dvd players of Denon are built like tanks. The PE 59AVi looks very good, but the build quality of the Denon was definitely superior. Of course, my dvd player doesn't go strolling too often, so I am not sure the build quality issue on the outside is terribly important. And I also own a Denon 2900 for my downstairs set-up.
Scott Bublitz
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Posted on
Hi all,
Looking to get a 7.1 receiver with component video up-conversion. Problem--budget is under $1000. So, looking at either Denon avr-3805 or Sony STR-DA3000ES. Sony looks to have more power, which might be necessary my Paradigm speakers. I have read the postings on the denon, and was quite suprised by the negative reactions. Which one do you think is better?
I don't think you are going to find a Denon AVR-3805 (when they ship!) for less than $1K from an authorized Denon dealer - brick and mortar or internet. Be very carefull about buying a piece of equipment this complicated based solely on lowest price. I support my local hi-fi dealers, although I always spend more initially for the product. But, in many cases, I'm happy I spent that extra $100 or $200 (including sales tax) when a serious problem happens, you're not pleased with the receiver, or need a replacement. Sometimes, the lowest price is not always the best buying decision.
All that being said, there are several receivers available with 7.1 and up-conversion at under the $1K price point, including the now-discontinued Denon AVR-3803, either the Yamaha RX-V1400 or RX-V2400, Onkyo, and several others. Let your ears be the final judge, not the specs.
Recievers with DPL IIX Marantz 7400 around $900 Denon 3805 $1200 should be more out there
Nick-P
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Posted on
There some guys in this forum that behave really childish. Is hard to believe that we're dealing with adults. You're suppose to offer OPINIONS cause sound is really a matter of preference and even if some of you are specialists you can't convince the ears of somebody! The gold rule is to MIX and MATCH to find what pleases you. It depends how the speakers and other components match to give the final result. And also how they perform in YOUR space! Something that nobody mentions but is perhaps the most important part of a sound system. How the room corresponds might make a product sound great or ridiculous. Specialists...
Re. Dolby ProLogic IIx . . . yes, the new Denon AVR-3805 has it, the Rotel RSX-1056 ($1,299 MSRP), and the Yamaha RX-V1400 ($799 MSRP) and RX-V2400 ($999 MSRP). It most likely will be included in firmware upgrades of most new models.
And, for what it's worth, here is some recent test info . . .
Hi-Fi Choice magazine, a respected U.K. magazine which conducts thorough hardware reviews, had an interesting Group Test & Lab Report in its March 2004 issue. The test included: Two-Channel Amps, Arcam Diva A80, Creek A50IR, Roksan Kandy KA-1 MKIII, and Rotel RA-1062; Six-Channel A/V Receivers, Denon AVR-2803, Pioneer VSX-AX3, Sony STR-DB790 (same as USA STR-DA1000ES), and Yamaha RX-V1400RDS . Interestingly, here is what the objective lab test analysis determined for the RX-V1400: Continuous Power Output Two-Channel, 175W/8 ohms; Continuous Power Output Five-Channels driven simultanteously, 107W/8 ohms. In dynamic conditions, the Five-Channel readings were: 210W/8 ohms, 330W/4 ohms, and 380W/2 ohms. The test stated that loads as low as 1 ohm were detected by the Yamaha's protection circuit as a "short" and the protection circuit acted accordingly by shutting down the outputs. The only difference between the U.S.-marketed version and the European versions are the following: European versions have the RDS tuning, configuration for the difference AC mains voltage, and have a captive AC line cord. Otherwise, the preamp, amplifier, and the power supplies are the same.
Thus, it appears that the RX-V1400's power supply is up to the task, and certainly better than that of Yamaha's previous models. BTW . . . the Denon AVR-2803's Five-Channel output with all 5-channels driven simultaneously dropped from its Two-Channel level of 130W/8 ohms to only 36W/8 ohms. Its Dynamic power output was excellent however.
I don't often buy one of the European magazines due to their equivalent cost (in this case $9.00), but I found this one interesting. Also, since I'm considering the Rotel RA-1062 2-channel amp for my audio system, I wanted to archive the issue. The Rotel was the top-rated integrated 2-channel amp.
The Pioneer A/V receiver tested (which is equivalent to one of the USA Elite models) did not fare too well in the tests. Excellent continuous and dynamic power output, but the reviewers didn't like the sound for some reason?? The Sony, surprisingly, did very well, and was priced several hundread pounds sterling less than the competing units.
The Group Test & Lab Report in the March 2004 issue of HiFi Choice magazine covered the RX-V1400RDS - the European version of the RX-V1400. The RX-V2400 was not tested.
I don't believe it is currently on their website, but it could possibly show up there in the future. Thus, it appears it is only available now in print within the issue of the magazine. I bought my copy at our local Borders book store.
I don't have a place that sells Hi-Fi Choice magazine near me, is there anyway to get a hold of that review, or do you know if they have it available electronically online...I couldn't find it on their website.
Send me an e-mail off-list (click on my name and click on the link to send me a private message). Most likely only a few bookstores carry Hi-Fi Choice magazine. I'm not sure if Barnes & Noble does - I only checked at Borders and they only had one in stock.
I just bought a new Denon 2803 and I like it a lot.
The most important thing is what a lot of you have already said: listen and decide for yourself.
This is my second Denon receiver and I definatly recommend them. Now I looked at the new Yamaha and Rotel and Elite and felt the Denon was superior. However, this new Denon is a lot nicer than my old one and my old one was considered very nice in it's day. (avr-2500)
The 2803 brought my old JBL's back to life which reminded me of the way my Adcom seperates used to sound with these speakers.
Speaking of Adcom, maybe this will help some of you, my friend and me have traded many components over the years allowing us to try many different combinations along the way.
Here is my OPINION:
Adcom's (bright and tight) sound great with JBL's (slow and low)
Denon's mate well with Klipsch. (smooth amp, bright speaker)
Yamaha's sound bad to me in all combo's. (opinion)
Regarding the Yamaha 1400, I find it hard to believe those readings are accurate in real life 8 ohm speaker loads.
The following review is from Sound and Vision on the Yamaha 2400, the more upscale model: "With five channels driving 8-ohm loads, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 43.5 watts and 1% distortion at 44.1 watts. With seven channels driving 8-ohm loads, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 32.3 watts and 1% distortion at 36.9 watts.
This is a long way from the readings in the British publication. Maybe the UK is getting better product or the publication tested the amplifier section into a simple 8 ohm resistor and not a "real world" 8 ohm speaker, where the speaker goes up and down from 8 ohms at various frequencies.
This is not to say that the Yamaha isn't an excellent receiver at its price point. It is. But the power envelope in the real world is undoubtedly significantly less when driving more than 2 speakers.
I recently bought the bose Acoustimass 16, I am looking for a good AV receiver that can drive them both for music and home theatre. I will appreciate your views on receivers that will light up my room.
Wow! I just hooked up my new 3805. I got one of the first here in San Diego. It is awesome! I set it up manually for the first test run and even with my tin ear it sounds fantastic. I had a Yamaha 1300 and considered the 2400. In fact I had the 2400 for awhile on a test run. I heard about the 3805 and always loved Denon. After playing a few of my favorite cuts in both stereo and SACD the performance is incredible. I thought the 2400 was an improvement but this bad boy makes my Vienna Acoustics just rock. My son and I (from Tweeters) played with it till about 2:00am the other night. The quality of the sound and sound stage it presents is the best I have heard, at least with my system. The PL2x for TV viewing is perfect. If anyone on this site is still considering a new receiver, I would wait to hear this one. The only draw back I have encountered so far is the fact Denon does not provide the mike for the automatic set up the receiver provides. It was quite simple to do manually but I do want to try the auto mode when I can. It doesn't have THX but with the different DSP's available I'm sure I can come close to duplicating Lucas. The little bit of Jurassic Park I played was enough to convince me I can live with out the THX. I hope a few people on this site give it a listen and let me know what they think.
Hey Johnb, I posted a message asking about which unit to go with either the Yamaha 2400 or the Denon 3805 and I definatelly value your opinion since you tested both of them... Am I to understand that the test mic doesnt come with the Denon and it's an option?! If thats the case, then how do I get that as well?! Weird for Denon to ask for more money for something so crucial yet so cheap too...
I was looking at the 2400, the denon 3805 and the NAD T763, I finally heard all 3 of them with the speakers that I'll be using. I had goodguys call Yamaha because the site says the RX-V1400,2400 both now have pro-logic IIx, they called Goodguys and said only the ones they shipped from 3 months ago and the newer shipment . So the once I heard doesnt have it. But i gotta give it to the 3805, it's the only one that come close to the NAD T763, but again the MIC is not included and the T763 is the one I prefer more for the speakers I bought. I think soundwise the Denon 3805 is better than the Yamaha, but for features the yamaha have Dolby Prologic IIx, Auto room setup and THX select. hmmmm tough tough choice, hope this helps..
I would recommend you to try Pioneer Elite instead of Denon if you use Klipsh speaker system. I have Denon 3801 with Klipsch SF2, SB3 SC1 speakers. I've found the speakers sound extremely bright after I changed my old Pioneer receiver with Denon. Pioneer has more punch and deliver more bass frequency sounds compared to Denon 3801. Although I haven't used Denon 3805 as of today, Klipsch owners should stay away from Denon receivers. At least that's what I learned from my experience.
I use the Pioneer Elite 55 for my DVD player. It is one of the few for under $400 that plays SACD and DVD audio. You guys are right the 3805 does not come without the setup mic. I thought that was strange too, but I originally set it up manually and then my kid borrowed the setup mike from a 2400 at his Tweeter store. I had it close but it did tweak it a bit more with the automatic settings. I also agree it is a toss up with this and the 2400. The Yamaha still has it beat with features like THX and a few more sound fields. I must say though with my speakers, at least, the sound is much better. Again though it's what speakers you are driving and what sounds good to you. Mine are Vienna Acoustics front and center with Boston Acoustics rear and center rear. I too did a side by side with the 2400 and with my setup and my room conditions the 3805 does perform more to my tastes and I guess when it's all said and done it's what sounds best to you.
And they are available online at various places at suprisingly inexpensive prices now. I have seen the Elite DV45A at between $300-$350, the Elite 47AVi at $600-$675, and the Elite 59AVi at between $950-$1100.
Generally the lowest prices don't offer warranty, or sell a warranty.
Bizrate is all the way down to $299 on the DV45A. It is a previous years model and did list at that $1200 price range. Maybe the term being replaced was incorrect but I think when these are gone they are gone. At this price point it's hard to beat the features and flexability in this unit. I do agree with Hum Kim in saying with the Klipsh speaker sytem you do want to run a warmer receiver. GS is right too with the Elite models the 2 year warranty can be voided if not purchased through an approved dealer.
It's not a major issue but the 45a did not ever list for $1200 and is still a current model. Look at the Pioneer website and you will see it listed as part of the current lineup. It has always listed at $700 while the 47 lists at $1200. The 45 is a very good player and at $299 is a real steal. I have had mine for a year or so and find it a terrific player both for movies and music. For the money can't be beaten.
You said it! For the price it's an excellent purchase. My son is the Elite fan but where do you find a DVD with this flexibility for the price point. Of course who would have thought you would be able to buy a progressive scan for $59 a few years ago. Sorry for the wrong original MSRP but your right. I was looking at the 47 also but couldn't see that much benefit for the extra cost.
Phil
Unregistered guest
Posted on
For those of you who have tested / own the Denon 3805, can the crossover frequency be completely tweeked independently for each speaker (i.e. front l/r, center, surrounds) or is it set up with the more simplified large/small speaker settings all the way around?
Has anyone had a chance to use the auto callibration? If so, how significant of an equalization change did the receiver make and was the change a definite improvement in sound quality?
Also, does anyone know if you can upgrade this unit through the RS232C port, as you can with other Denon models?
They do not offer speaker crossover option for all channels. It does have a wide selection from 60hz to I believe 200hz with many other set up options. I set mine up manually the 1st time I tried it out and got close. When I borrowed my sons Yamaha 2400 mic and did the auto calibrations it did make a noticible improvement. The sound field I have now is almost spooky. I use pure stereo for most of my music listening but love SACD and CD-A sound also. According to the manual yes it is upgradeable, although I haven't read much on the subject yet. If you decide on this receiver I think you will be very happy. There are some draw backs, one being no setup mic, but the performance is excellent with both music and home theater. so far I have had lots of compliments with no problems.
Does anyone know if the PE 55TXI can be tweaked to address brightness for hard room dynamics? I use Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900's and compatible Def Techs all around. The Def Techs use hard dome tweeters that can sound bright at times, and the concrete floors and hard walls of my media room further exacerbate the problem. I'm in love with the overall sonic qualities of the PE in every showroom (heard it in 3 so far, including with Def Techs), but of course each showroom was carpeted to the hilt and had special acoustic ceiling tiles. Compared to the Denon 3805, I found the PE just slightly more sonically interesting for music (especially the Neo6-music mode)...but that was in an optimal acoustic environment (sans brightness). Is a 5 band EQ sufficient to tweak upper midrange...or is 9-band required (which is a feature of the significantly more expensive 59TXI)?
j
Unregistered guest
Posted on
i have to agree to disagree with ketayb. i just tried both pe 55txi and the denon avr-3805 with some martin logan speakers and both performed well with the 4 ohm towers but during high volumes the 55txi was starting to strain and distort, while the denon did not. i also tried both yamaha thx receivers (rx-v1400 and rx-v2400) and they too did very well driving the 4 ohm speakers without distorting. but still the pioneer elite vsx-55txi is still a great receiver!!
ketayb
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Does anyone have any info about the "brightness" issue I mention in my previous post?
jcbatlga
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Posted on
I have an old Pioneer Elite 29TX, I don't think I have ever read a positive review of it. I have yet to purchase any good speakers for it. I have used some older Bose AM series speakers(AM7s and AM3s), I also tried hooking up some inexpensive Sony speakers I had. Bearing that in mind, I have not been able to purchase a new receiver even though I have been shopping for over a year. I have compared the HK 330, 430, and 630(of those lean toward the 430), Denon 2803, 3803, & 3805 (3805 has good features, but the sound just doesn't do it for me), Yamaha 2400 & 1400 (sounds plain, flat, no depth). I have spent a long time in the listening rooms at Hifi buys, with different movies, sacd, and DVD-Audio titles and switched between all the different types of speakers they had(they don't carry the Klipsch Ref. anymore, my preference). I just haven't heard anything that I like better than my Pioneer Elite 29TX, with the crappy speakers. I'm no expert, I just know what I like.
Deanhorn
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Posted on
This is an interesting thread and I would like to add my 2 cents worth. Speakers If there is one thing I could talk you out of, it would be the in wall speakers. How did we get to the "speakers should be heard and not seen" mentality that we have today? This is utter nonsense and drives me crazy. You would have much better performance from even a bookshelf (not satellite) speaker in the same price range. Plus, what are you going to do when you move? How are you going to rearrange the room?
You should ask the salesman to listen to the most expensive speakers in the store (likely to be towers) to get a point of reference of what it should sound like. Then, listen to other speakers and decide what you are willing to give up in performance (dynamics, bass, etc).
Subwoofers are a must for movies, but are a curse for music and I will tell you why. Most subwoofers are optimized for reproducing the loudest booms from explosions from movies. So, they will tend to boom the bass for music which is not what you want. Music should have tight bass and not boomy or flabby bass. The crossover frquency from the sub to the main speakers is also critical for music listening. Since the subwoofers boom, I have found that the best crossover for music is at 60 Hz. This obviously depends on the main speakers having the ability to go down that low. This requires a fairly large bookshelf with most likely a 6 1/2 inch woofer.
Receiver Most of the people giving you advice on the receivers are ones that they own. They are happy with their purchase decision. This tells you that you too will be happy with any of the receivers mentioned in this thread. You should be spending more time with the speaker decision.
I must tell you that I own a Denon 3803 and I am also very happy with it. I purchased it based on its outstanding digital section and its clean amps. There are 16 (!) high quality Burr Brown 192/24 digital to analog convertors. It uses 2 per channel in surround mode and four per channel in two channel stereo mode. Stereo mode also includes Denon's Alpha 24 processing which is similar to upsampling. In addition, there are direct and pure direct modes which turn off video circuits, displays, etc. The pure direct mode is outstanding and will sound much better than almost all CD or DVD players under $500. It eliminates the harshness of CD's. I doubt any of the other receivers here can match this.
The amp section is very fast, dynamic, and clean. I was hearing details that I have not heard before from some CD's. This was using an existing MSB DAC, so it was not from the DAC's in the receiver.
I do have Klipsch tower speakers and I am not bothered by harshness. A lot of it depends on the room where the speakers are located. You would not want to put a Klipsch or any other speaker in a bright room with no carpeting, curtains, etc. A lot of it also depends on the source component (CD or DVD player). Cheap players have cheap DAC's which will sound harsh. The CD format is prone to harshness, but has improved much over the past few years. The new high resolution audio (DVD audio and SACD) eliminate the harshness and sound much better than CD's.
Given an adequate power supply, your speakers and the quality of the recording will always be a limiting factor in the sound you hear. You could well put in a $5,000 amp and a $5,000 preamp and hear no improvement. If the speakers aren't that accurate and have poor on-axis and/or poor off-axis performance you are bound to get sound that you find wanting, no matter what other components you add.
Good speakers and an acoustically balanced room are necessary to get very good sound. Without good speakers the best you can do is perform some mild equalization to get the best performance available from your speakers.
Regarding the Pioneer Elite 55TXi, it was not designed to drive most 4 ohm speakers. It is very happy when driving medium (or higher) sensitivity 6-8 ohm speakers.
The Denon 3805 wasn't designed for 4 ohm speakers either, although it has a slightly better amp section than the PE 55TXi and can undoubtedly drive 4 ohm speakers better. The NAD receivers are designed for both 4 and 8 ohm useage. But even then, if one is going to drive medium efficiency (or less) 4 ohm speakers to very loud levels getting a good separate amp is often a wise move.
If money is a big issue, there are lots of quality 8 ohm speakers that perform great with a much wider range of receivers. No doubt the receiver you buy should reflect the amplifier quality, sensitivity of the 8 ohm speakers, the features you want, and the ease of use.
I know plenty of people that bought difficult to use and adjust receivers and preamps that have a tendency to leave them at one adjustment rather than deal with the arduous task of changing settings.
