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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 1 Registered: 02-2004 | Been lurking a few days. The ecoustics forum seems a little more audio oriented than the AVS forum where I've been hanging out. I am looking for a new receiver to go with my Kef 104.2 speakers and Sunfire powered sub. For the last few years, I have been using an Adcom GTP600 preamp and GCD cd player, along with a mediocre Technics receiver & receiver pair. The Technics has been powering only the center and rear speakers. I was using a pair of Denon POA-6600 (250 watt) monoblock amps for the Kefs. Alas,last year one of the Denons died, I had it repaired for ~$400, then the other died. They are now awaiting warmer weather so I can use them as anchors for my sailboat. I brought a pair of Adcom GFA-565 (300 watt) monoblock amps home I had been using at my office. They are great amps if you want raw power and loads of current, but were somewhat rough sounding - not as clean as the Denons. They also have a little too much ambient hum for delicate musical passages or for home theater use. Anyway, when I bought a new Sony 42" LCD TV (and Denon 1600 DVD player) and installed new cabinets for the system, I put the Adcoms in the basement, where they wait for me to list on ebay. I am using the mediocre Technics and looking for a new receiver. I was about to get the Onkyo TX-NR801 or 900/901, until I started reading comments about their liberal power ratings. Since I listen to alot of internet radio, I would really enjoy the Net-Tune. My main computer is in a basement office and is wired into the house a/v system. It would be nice to be able to tune in internet stations directly from the receiver, but I don't want to sacrifice much audio quality. I do have an AES single-ended stereo tube amp for when I want to do critical listening. I would like a better preamp than the Adcom or Technics. I'm also trying to simplify the setup so my wife and daughter can operate it. I'm also on about a $1k budget for it so I'm not really considering something like the Rotel preamp/processor and a new multi-channel amp. Given all this excess information, should I consider something like the Integra 7.3/7.4 receiver (with Net-Tune), or would the NAD T762 give me significantly better audio quality? I am considering an SACD player and realize the AES tube amp won't be a good match in a surround sound situation. Is the amp section of the Integra any better than the Onkyo? BTW, our den is pretty small, ~ 13' x 15', but open to the kitchen and acoustically pretty neutral. Sorry for the lengthy description - just trying to shed light on my situation. Thanks for any input. Jim |
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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 3 Registered: 02-2004 | bump |
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Silver Member Username: HawkPost Number: 290 Registered: 12-2003 | James: As someone who has auditioned both units for some time, I would suggest you are comparing apples to oranges (and I am sure you were aware of this). To answer your question, the NAD will give you significantly better sound than the Integra. The raison d'etre for the Integra is its Net-tune feature--as a stand alone receiver, it suffers from many of the same power problems as the Onkyos. In fact, the problems of the Onkyo/Integra line is more than just the lack of power generation as I find they sound very lifeless and washed out. So, even given your small space, I do not think it will sound very satisfying. It certainly wasn't satisfying for me. I really believe it comes down to what matters most to you, the Net-tune feature or quality sound. Also, can you get an outboard Net-Tune tuner and plug it into the NAD? I really don't know much about Net-Tune, so I don't know what is out there in the way of products. I think you will find the NAD will have the power of your Adcoms (I know those Adcoms and yes they are rather rough sounding) with the refinement of your old Denon monoblocks--or at least very close. If you can get the Net-Tune reception and hook it up to an NAD receiver, I would think that would be the best option. good luck! |
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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 4 Registered: 02-2004 | Hawk, Thanks for the info. Maybe if I had read your post before, I would have made a different decision. Anyway, I was leaving for the NC mountains Saturday morning, where we would have no internet service. There was an Integra 7.3 on ebay with the auction ending Saturday night. I put a bid in before I left and won the auction at $ 699. Do you know anything about the Integra's preamp and processor sections? Hopefully I can still salvage the situation and am trying to rationalize buying it. The Net-Tune receiver alone is ~ $400. I'm mainly concerned about the Integra's front L&R channels. My sub is powered, the surrounds don't really count, and the center is not even always used. I usually run in phantom mode, as the wife factor hates the center speaker perched on top of the LCD TV. I'm probably going to have to find something smaller than the Mirage Mcsi for the center. I believe the 7.3 will allow me to use a separate power amp for the fronts. I share office space with a friend who owns a company that manufactures 300B audio tubes. He also has a bad habit of collecting amps, preamps and even 4 sets of Magneplanars. There are at least two dozen stereo or monoblock amps lying around the office, ranging from old Marantz & Sony ES, to Cary, Bryston and Canary. He doesn't mind me borrowing something for lengthy demos, and if I find something I can't live without, I can either buy it from him or find one myself. Are there any amps you would suggest? There are several NAD amps on ebay, such as a 2700 and a 218. In lieu of finding a new amp I suppose I could always fix my Denon 6600's. I repair ion lasers in my business, so I might get lucky with the Denons. Thanks, Jim |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 212 Registered: 12-2003 | I have a slightly complicated system, though not as much as you, Jim. I recently made two breakthroughs in family-friendly operation. One was to let my NAD receiver be the switch between all sources (DVD; VCR; satellite tuner) for both audio and video. Everyone now knows which input is which, and can use the system, no problem. The fourth audio input to the receiver takes the analogue signal from a stereo pre-amp and all things attached to that (phono; CD player). Family members still find that tricky, but they mostly don't bother with it. The second breakthrough was the NAD HT remote. One IR controller for the lot, with a panel of buttons at the top to select which source you are controlling. Believe me, it helps. You could use the Onkyo Integra as an input to another receiver, though there is then a lot of redundancy and it is not an elegant solution. I am with Hawk. You may be surprised at how well a T762/763 receiver performs, just as a stereo integrated amp. It is like quality separates for sound, and well up to the satisfying job of driving Kef 104.2 speakers. Note, those excellent speakers are rated at 4 Ohms. The Integra 7.4 looks good on paper (or web page). I cannot find whether the 7.3 is OK with 4 Ohm speakers. You will know, by now! |
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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 5 Registered: 02-2004 | John, actually, no I don't know yet. The auction ended Saturday. I emailed the seller Monday but have not heard back from him yet. He originally wanted only a cashier's check, and has a "0" feedback rating. I emailed him before bidding and asked to pay by credit card or PayPal; he responded and said we could work something out. I don't know if he's become reluctant to sell, considering that the receiver drew only one bid at the opening price. I will certainly honor my bid, but if I don't hear from him in the next couple of days, I will strongly consider the NAD. Any ideas about using the Integra as a preamp/processor and for surround and center amps, then a better stereo or mono pair for the mains? Jim |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 215 Registered: 12-2003 | Thanks, Jim. I am interesting to know how you get on. I have only just discovered this Integra idea, from the thread HD Radio. I have some experience with ethernet etc. but just plug an Apple PowerBook into an analogue stereo input of my amp/receiver to get radio stations I cannot otherwise receive. I can foresee one day having a central LAN server with all my music, but for now I am mostly happy to get away from computers for a while, music is my escape. And that will be a big project. As regards adding a stereo power amp to an Integra pre/amp processor, all my up-to-date knowledge concerns A/V and HT, so I can't help much. I note good things said about the NAD BEE amps on other threads, but that is just my interest in the brand. From where I am starting, I would be interested in an ethernet (or better wireless networked) station/tuner that was also possibly a file server, then provide its output (preferably digital) to my A/V surround receiver. I am not sure if there are such things. This whole business of convergence - one unit doing everything you want - is a mixed blessing. Personally I like to get away from the TV and listen to music in another room from time to time. A receiver like the Integra would be the center of operations and would probably mean everything all together in one place, so no listening to internet radio if someone else wants to watch TV or a movie. At the moment I listen to internet radio on Saturday morning mostly, when there is a programme I like and it does not displace family members from doing other things since they are not in the "hi-fi room" (as they call it - it is more correctly a "TV room" now, darn it). It is an interesting set of questions you raise. The hi-fi sound quality issue will never go away though - it is a question of which new sort of inputs we want. So keep those excellent KEFs, and find a good amp/receiver to go with them. That would be my advice. All i can vouch for is that NAD receivers are at least as good as conventional stereo amps for music. I just don't know about the Onkyo. Just as Hawk said "If you can get the Net-Tune reception and hook it up to an NAD receiver, I would think that would be the best option.". That is what I would choose, too. In a perfect world! But if you just plug in a computer, and it has good audio out, you are already there. I note the Apple G5 (not a laptop) even has digital audio out via optical interconnect. That can't be a bad way to go. |
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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 6 Registered: 02-2004 | Well I finally heard from the Integra seller - just that he had been busy and would send payment instructions soon. That was two days ago. The auction was over 6 days ago and still no way to send payment! I'm emailing him today to see if he even WANTS to sell it. If not, I'll order a refurbed or demo NAD 762. I'm going to Houston today. If he hasn't responded when I return Sunday, I'll probably pull the plug on this Integra deal. If someone takes this long just to make arrangements to RECEIVE payment, I hate to think how long it will take for them to actually get around to shipping the unit. John A: As for the convergence issue, I just want to be able to listen to my two favorite internet stations over our main system without having to go downstairs to the main computer every time I want to change channels or reboot the stations connection. I originally tried a SonicBox tuner & remote, but you can't add stations. I just ran CAT-5 cables wired with RCA connectors on each end. The basement (main) computer is fed into an old Yamaha receiver, and the Yamaha's tape outs feed the upstairs main system. At the same time, the upstairs system feeds the basement receiver. Whatever loss I have using the CAT-5 cable is neglible considering the mediocre quality of most internet stations. I listen to internet stations a couple of hours a day while working on my laptop in the den. I'll admit I've gone a little overboard. I have a Sirius tuner always hooked up to the main system, can hook up my XM Delphi to that system also. Still, I like listening to WMVY (wmvy.com) for rock or WNCW (wncw.org) for a great public station. WNCW has an especially broad playlist which can include Otis Redding, Los Lobos, the Dead, Bob Marley, Pat Metheny, and Bruce Springsteen, all in the same hour, and make it work. WMVY is more folk oriented. I can listen to either of these stations for hours. Jim |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 224 Registered: 12-2003 | Jim, Thanks for the feedback. I have a complicated home for audio and computers, too. We have four computers in daily use, all connected via ethernet, and all sharing one internet connection via the modem in an Apple "Airport" base station. The extra value of that is you can connect anywhere in the house, and you don't even need the ethernet cables. The problem we have is external bandwidth; we are out in the country. In your place I would just plug my laptop into the nearest audio system. The Integra does too many things, in my opinion. It anchors you down to one place for network radio, and that competes with other people doing others things. True, you can distribute the ouput to speakers all over the house, but you will need to install long cables, and the main A/V system will still do only one thing at a time. If the Onkyo made coffee, too, it would be OK if you didn't have to switch off the music to do it. In your position I would be very inclined to get a conventional (but good) A/V receiver, a wireless network card (now available for most lap-tops), and a wireless "base station" - or else just a wireless card for the main computer in the basement (if it will take it and share its internet access with other computers). My personal brand preferences (NAD, Apple) are not important here; you can go that route building on what you already have, and there are many possible alternatives. |
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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 7 Registered: 02-2004 | John, I have the house networked with wired and a DLink 802.11g "extreme" wireless, all connected to the cable modem. In our den, all seats are across the room from the a/v system, so I would have to run a cable from my laptop's sound output to the receiver. Do you know of a way to control the downstairs computer from the laptop? Or is there a way to transmit the laptop's sound output wirelessly (not with some of the 900mhz xmitters I've seen). Thanks, Jim |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 229 Registered: 12-2003 | Jim, Sorry I don't know how to control the computer from the laptop, generally, except it can be done. Apple now has a program called Remote Desktop, and once there was something called Timbuctoo that did the same thing, I think, but I have no personal experience. I have now read a review of an Onkyo TX-NR801E receiver in March Home Cinema Choice which teaches me it has a 802.11 WiFi card in it, too, so that changes things a bit as regards connectivity. It is generally a very positive review, too. For me the Onkyo still does too much. I would have to live with one for a while to see whether I used it. As regards the cabling, why not just put the laptop next to the receiver? You could get an IR remote for the laptop. Internet radio has certainly improved from the earlier RealAudio implementations, but it is still not really hi-fi. I am driven to it because my favourite radio station has recently moved to a different satellite with a smaller footprint (this is Europe where the aim is to restrict reception...!), and I am just over the edge of reception. So my first choice will be to upgrade my satellite dish, or maybe move back to civilization... But it is an interesting question you raise. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 233 Registered: 12-2003 | Jim, I have re-read the Home Cinema Choice review (March) of the Onkyo TX-NR801E and the bottom line, for me at least, is that it is an interesting experiment in what can be done - but sound is compromised for gadgets. It has bells and whistles I had never heard of before. NetTunes is interesting; it is new to me and I wonder if it is a proprietary format designed to allow sale of clips for download. Some features I frankly would not touch e.g. "Intellivoice" for automatic signal level adjustment between channels. This is one of those features, like surround modes emulating recording venue acoustics: the more I think about it, the less I understand why anyone would want it, and the more I wonder how much it costs. According to Onkyo, the power is "135 W/Ch. Continuous / 6 Ohm / 1 kHz / DIN" ( the web site lovingly describes each individual channel, ....I wonder why...?). "135 W" sounds OK if you don't think too hard. But, according to the HCC review, the measured power @ 1 kHz into 8 Ohms, 5 channels driven, is 45 W/channel. And that is at 1kHz, not across the range as you need for a real speaker - and the KEF 104.2 is no less than that! And what happens with 7 channels driven.....? For me the knife comes in near the end of the review: "With music, the NR 801 is not the most revealing amp on the market (it doesn't pretend to be an audiophile design) but the presentation in lively and enjoyable nonetheless". The retail price must be higher than that pf the NAD T763 and approaching that of the NAD T773 (7 x 110 W - honest Watts, too). For me, there would be no contest! BTW Read the Onkyo web site "feature list" and "specifications" if you want to see the shine produced by a liberal application of snake oil. The Macromedia Flash voice-over and background on http://www.onkyo.net/uk/ makes me grind my teeth (leave it running; it gets worse....) I appreciate the sales pitch is irrelevant to the quality of the product, but they cannot seriously be trying to sell audio gear with that. I guess I am not their target customer. That's just fine by me. Long may it be so. I sometimes suspect the whole industry has us sorted out into consumer profiles, and all the investment really goes into market research and brand positioning, and not quality of product. Maybe NAD has has my number and Onkyo doesn't. Real bottom line: you have to audition things! |
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Jim Martin Unregistered guest | John and Hawk, Just an update. I finally heard from the Integra 7.3 seller last Saturday (Feb 21). He said he was had setup his PayPal account, and would call me back "in a couple of hours" to let me know how to send payment. It is now Feb. 27, and I still have not heard from him - 12 days after the end of the auction. Yesterday I called Spearit Sound and ordered a refurbed NAD 762. I have already received confirmation from UPS that it shipped yesterday. What a contrast in how Spearit does business and the way the ebay seller(who has an A/V company in Kansas) does business. I agree that it is best to audition things, but for me, I usually need a few days living with something. Sometimes it makes sense to trust some opinions and take a chance on something. Though I want the best deal possible, I don't feel good about auditioning something at a local dealer, then ordering online or mail order. The worst case is I that I hate the 762 (unlikely), sell it on ebay and lose a couple of hundred $$. Jim |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 266 Registered: 12-2003 | Jim, Great news. I do not know whether you got a bargain, but you certainly bought an excellent receiver. That was the NAD A/V receiver "Flagship" until quite recently. Since you are used to separates it will be very interesting to read your impressions after you have it hooked up and adjusted all the setting to your liking. It should work well with the KEF 104.2s. Please confirm. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkPost Number: 370 Registered: 12-2003 | Jim: I really think you will be quite pleased with this receiver. It has a truly wonderful toroidal power supply (one of the real weaknesses of the Integras, BTW, is their power supply), and quality components throughout the receiver. The sound is warm and very dynamic. Like John A., I look forward to hearing your observations of this receiver driving your 104.2s, truly a classic speaker. |
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Jim Martin Unregistered guest | I paid $ 800 for the refurbed 762. It comes with a 1-year warranty vs. 2-years for a new one. I'm having it sent to my office. Before I take it home we'll be able to compare it to some pretty exotic stuff. My office mate probably has better ears for amplifiers. Right now he has a pair of Alon Circe speakers in our conference room, along with a pair of Silvaweld 300B tube amps and one of his great sounding "home-brew" 300B amps. I have no idea how it sounds, but there is a Perreaux transistor amp around there if we need to compare the NAD to something large and bulky. Part of his "collection" includes four pairs of Magneplanar Tympani ID's, just the kind my wife-to-be made me give up for the KEF's before we got married 14 years ago. Unfortunately, if I ever brought the Maggies home, I would wind up sleeping in their box in the backyard. Anyway, I'll try to remember to keep the comparison in perspective. Also, it is Saturday night, I'm in New Orleans on a business trip, and it's time to go hear some live music! Jim (registered, but for some reason the board won't recognize me from this damned hotel) BTW, thanks for the comments about the KEF's. After listening to them and the Denon's for so long, I had begun to wonder if my old (nearly 50) ears just couldn't hear the difference anymore. I had spent over 10 years not listening to the "system", only the music. Not that that's at all wrong. Bringing the little AES tube amp home renewed my interest sometimes listening to the equipment. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 278 Registered: 12-2003 | Jim, It is going to be really interesting to try out your new receiver. A 1-yr warranty is all you need. Anything serious will show up within a few weeks. I too have only just come back to audio. The stimulus was my family's desire for home theatre. It's interesting how not much has changed. All the old neuroses and insecurities. People who 25 years ago would have gone to war over moving-magnet vs moving-coil pickup cartridges are now arguing about the difference between electrical and optical digital interconnects. This forum has many posters who seem to be looking for any excuse to spend money on "upgrades". I killed one thread stone dead, accidentally, by saying not much is new, really, and you are better off, in terms of sound for your money, tinkering around and putting your old equipment to new uses. Surely a KEF 104.2 owner will see my point?! How many years of use before upgrading your Home Theater system?. Have a great time in New Orleans. Please report back. I keep reading about wives and Magnepans. I must be like Arnie in terminator II, not programmed to understand human mating behaviour. My nearest Magnepan dealer is in another country. If I ever feel the need for new speakers, I shall take my wife over for a much-needed weekend break and see for myself what the problem is. From just the other side of the big 50, reaching that doesn't seem at all bad if you consider the alternative... |
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New member Username: MertonPost Number: 13 Registered: Feb-04 | John, I finally got home and got it hooked up late Friday night. I didn't have time to try it out at the office. I'm pretty happy with the way the amp & preamp sound. Good detail, plenty of power, and good bass management. Most female vocals sounded great (Nora Jones, Joni Mitchell). One cd of Lena Horne sounded really rough and brittle, but that may have been the CD source. Acoustic guitars and piano sound natural, too. On the downside, it makes a loud pop everytime I switch anything, including muting. It does it even when there is nothing connected to that input. Its bad enough that my wife complains with every pop. I'm going to call Spearit Sound tomorrow tomorrow to see what options I have. I'll keep you posted. Jim |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 313 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Jim. Interesting. I'll look out for your posts. I have read reports of "pops" on switching here before. Sorry I did not think to mention that - it is not an issue for me. I hear a pop on full power-up/power-down (the big green button) but not between inputs or into/out-of stand-by (using the remote). At least, nothing to be obtrusive, or to worry about. Good luck. Hope it works out. |
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HogansHeroes Unregistered guest | Jim, I'm new to the forum and just spied your thread about convergence. I was looking at the Integra for NetTunes but decided to go with a Marantz 7400 instead. The reason I did this was that I realized a buddy of mine was able to purchase an HP device (wireless digital media receiver - you can look at it on HP's site) which streams out mp3s from a home computer to your receiver. My home is already wirelessly enabled so its just a matter of hooking up the device to my receiver and adding some disk space to my home computer. Not sure if this solves all of what you were looking to do - but it does keep you from adding cabling throughout the house. |
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Bronze Member Username: MertonPost Number: 14 Registered: Feb-04 | I called Spearit Sound yesterday. They apologized for my problem and said they would send a replacement immediately, along with a UPS return label. I can't ask anything more from Spearit. Hopefully I just got a bad receiver, because I think I'm really going to like its sound and features. Hogan.. I think I looked into the HP, but it was geared mainly towards playing files from your hard drive. I just want a remote control internet radio receiver. |
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Bronze Member Username: MertonPost Number: 16 Registered: Feb-04 | John, Hawk, et, al. I posted the following in another thread about Nad popping sounds. We're going to listen more tomorrow at the office before I bring it home, but from my initial session, I will say this receiver was just what I was looking for. I've even forgiven myself for not checking out the physical depth of the 762. I had just installed semi-custom cabinets for the A/V system, and had to cut out the cabinet back and sheetrock behind the cabinet to make it fit! An update on my 762: Monday morning (3 days ago) I called the dealer, Spearit Sound, where I purchased the refurbed receiver. They agreed that the popping was not normal and immediately offered to send a replacement, along with a UPS return shipping label. The receiver arrived at my office yesterday. I am very impressed with Spearit's customer service! I got a chance to hook up the replacement this afternoon. It exhibits none of the popping noises, and sounds great! I only used one source, but switched between all inputs. I used an Accuphase CD player and Alon Circe speakers. The Nad had good detail and depth of image. I only had time to listen to a couple of Diana Krall tracks. This system is usually powered by a high-end tube amp. The Nad was not as warm and not quite as detailed, but sounded very, very good for a transistor amp. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 326 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Jim. Kudo to Spearit Sound, and to you. From all these NAD stories I think the bottom line is you have to be a pro-active customer with NAD. They respond, or their dealers do, mostly. NAD actually seems to value customer satisfaction and does not walk away once once a unit has been sold. |