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confused in vernon Unregistered guest | I am REALLY messed up. My beloved TEAC avr finally packed it in, being completely satisfied with what I had I had no idea what was out their these days. I went to the various local merchants and narrowed it down to these 3 choices. What I am really after is what is the best machine for its buck. The HK430 is the last of its kind and is on clear out for $900, keep in mind this canadian money. It looks like a good machine and I heard HK was fairly higher end in quality. The HK 135 is the future shop special of the day, I really hate future shop, (bad experience), but at $699 happier with the price, would prolly spend the extra dollars though and go with the 430 just baced on lothing of future shop. The Denon 1905, I really like this machine at $569 dollar for dollar hands down the easiest on the mastercard. The bigest trouble I am having is with the wording the salesman used. High current output. He said the HK was the leader their, but when I examine the specs it was right on par with denon. So basically I am asking anyone who knows their stuff help me please, I am a freak so I take decisions like this way to seriously instead of just enjoying what I like and just buying something. One other thing I mostly use it to watch movies some music, and i already have psb speakers |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 296 Registered: Oct-04 | That HK with blow that Denon out of the water. It's not only that HK under-rates the power output of their units, it's that even good companies like Denon still inflate their ratings a little. In actuality the HK will power speakers better at 4 Ohms, and have better power reserves for multi-channel - ie all channels driven. The price on the Denon is good though, and you might like the forward sound of the Denon with the PSBs. Future Shop can do better than that price. I'm in Canada as well and purchased an AVR430 last January for $1050 - mind you it was with Polk Rti speakers and was marked down from $1500, but I'd try to get the HK for closer to $700, take in some price quotes off ebay to try and steer them, like this one for $396 CAN - http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39794%26item%3D5747368391 |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 141 Registered: Apr-04 | And a Cummins diesel engine has more horse power than a flat six found in a Porsche. Harman Kardon rates their power at "all channels contiuously driver 20- 20HKZ". Wonderful - and totally meaningless since that never happens in real world listening situations. Denons are forward sounding? Gee - none of the three Denon's (2803, 2805 and 3805) I have owned sounded forward. Transparent maybe, and much more so than the two H/K's (325/425?) that I owned. I found the midrange on the H/K's to be much more forward, fat and bloated than the clean, transparent sound of the Denon. I have spent some time with both of these brands in my living room, and do not base my "opinion" on showroom auditions. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 300 Registered: Oct-04 | If you re-read my comment Riches, you will see I said "THAT HK will blow THAT Denon out of the water," and then go on to expand that the power difference will be noticed most if driving 4 ohms or sources that drive all speakers at once. You may think that speakers are never driven that hard in normal application, but I invite you over to my house during a party with the new Metallica Black DVD-A pumping... and we'll see. Maybe forward isn't the word for the Denons but I have yet to master describing audio in words. I own the Denon DVD-2910, and I feel I get the best of both worlds from using the different processors for different music. A good example is strings sound better letting the Denon do everything, while horns sound better from the HK. This is not a discussion of which is better - Denon or HK. This thread is comparing the Denon 1905 and the HK AVR430 paired with PSB speakers. I think the HK is the better receiver in this comparison.... looks like you forgot to answer the initial post. BTW the Cummins diesel engine IS the more powerful of the two, but cannot translate its horse power into speed due to the sheer size and weight of the engine. Is your contention that the Denons may not be as powerful but they're sleek and stylish like a Porsche? |
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confused in vernon Unregistered guest | I am confused Is riches saying the denon is better and in that case does that mean that transparent sounding is good? |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 145 Registered: Apr-04 | Kano: Which H/K are you referring to- the 135 or the 430? Did YOU read the post? What do you mean when you say "blows it out of the water"? How do you compare the two? Both rate their power differently. How can you say that one is more powerful than the other when no direct comparison is made? You can't - not with any creditability anyway. That's a tenet of research. You cannot compare the test results from one study to another and say one is product is better than another based on two separate analysis. They must be compared side by side, under the same conditions, with tight controls of all variables to come to a scientifically valid conclusion. You seem to come to your conclusions based on an anecdotal observation that H/K rates their power conservatively and Denon inflates theirs. That's a common "perception", but not necessarily valid. Again, they rate their power differently. And I am sure that you crank it out at your house, and really play it loud. And dude, I would love to come party at your house and hear some Metallica. I love Canada! Where do you live? But, seriously, you are not driving a 20Hz to 20 KHz signal -ever. That is only accomplished by generating a full frequency spectrum test tone and driving a 4, 6, and 8 ohm resistor in a lab and them measuring watts. Note that the measurement is never made while playing music (i.e. real world). And I never said one was better than the other. I said that the midrange was fatter and more forward with the H/K. Some people like that sound. It is especially complementary to Klipsch speakers. PSB's (IMHO) are neutral to warm. I happen to think that they would sound better with a more neutral receiver, like a Denon, or NAD and not with a very warm receiver like H/K. No, I did not forget the original post. I was addressing your comments - especially those pertaining to the Denon. The analogy on Cummins and Porsche was to illustrate that sometimes power comparisons are meaningless. You could say that either Cummins or Porsche blows the other away - depends on what your talking about. Confused in Vernon: I am not saying is Denon is better. I try to refrain from making those kinds of comments. But don't worry about the power ratings - they're meaningless. Others will disagree, but my opinion is based on science, not marketing hype. But there is a lot of debate on power ratings of receivers. The saleman was correct when he told you that H/K was a leader in high current amps. Yes, transparent is good. Think of transparent as the opposite of muddy. Transparent means that you can hear individual instruments in a musical passage, as opposed to a musical stew of instruments. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 146 Registered: Apr-04 | I forgot to add this: It takes something on the order of 10 watts to produce a 1dB change in volume. The smallest perceptable change in volume that the human ear can detect is 3dB. So it would take 30 watts difference just to be able to even begin to detect a difference in volume. |
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confused in vernon, but a little less Unregistered guest | riches: thanks for your input, I am really trying to decide if i want to go to the next level and spend the extra cash to move up from something like the denon 1905 to the 430, it has really been a question of dollars and cents and would I really be happier with a unit like the HK over the denon, or more so, would i be $300 dollars happier with the hk. Personally I think I am leaning towards the HK cus lets face it that little blue light on the volume knob just looks so cool (lol). And Vernon is in the Okanagan Valley in B.C., come in the summer thats when it is nicest, you should beable to hear Seek and Destroy from the beach just follow it up to the house, and visions has just drastically reduced the prices on thier HK stuff, the 335 is comparibly priced to the 430 now Peace out |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 301 Registered: Oct-04 | Riches, I don't need to compare test results and conduct surveys to give my opinion on which is the best receiver of the ones listed. Feature wise both HK and Denon do quite well compared to the competition. So sound quality and amplifier power will be the contributing factors for my decision. The HK430 blows that Denon 1905 out of the water overall. Therefore my recommendation. He may well like the sound of Denon with the PSBs over the HK, or Pioneer Elite, or NAD, or Onkyo, or Marantz, or Yamaha. IMO the HK 430 is at a higher level than the Denon 1905, for a better comparison he should look at the 2805 or preferably 3805. Riches does raise a good point though, the sound the receiver makes paired with the speakers is the most important consideration, and the Denon line will bring more clarity to the PSBs. Let your ears decide what sounds best with your speakers. Check out the new Yamaha 1500, I haven't found it here in Victoria yet, but have read some great reviews, it may be worth checking out. |
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confused in vernon, but a little less Unregistered guest | kano: I realized that the hk was definatly a better machine, I was really trying to figure out if it was $300 better or if for my money I was gonna be just as satisfied with the denon 1905. Thank for the advice though, I am really leaning towards the HK but I will definatly check out the yamaha, thanks |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 147 Registered: Apr-04 | I've only seen pictures, but I think B.C. is the most beautiful place on the planet. OK Kano. Now we've narrowed it down. No, you don't need reviews etc to express an opinion. But using terms like "blows it out of the water" are extreme. Let's see, rated power output power for the 1905 is 75 watts. Rated power for the 430 is 65 watts. Let's even suppose that the H/K is 75 watts and the Denon is 56 watts at clipping (which is extrapolated data but a good educated guess nontheless.). Nothing is getting blown out of the water there. 20 watts produces a 2.0 dB difference in volume - undetetcalbe by the human ear. Now, I will agree with you that H/K 430 is slightly higher end than a Denon 1905. I will agree with you further that a comparable Denon to the 430 is probably the 2805. I have the 3805 and I would say it is closer to the 630 and that the 3805 is more high end than the 630. Those Burr Brown DAC's set the bar in audio and the 3805 really starts to move into flagship/separates territory. Now Vernon, if you can get the H/K for $300 less than the Denon - get the H/K. I'm all about saving money. Besides, like you said, the blue light is way cool. I plan to visit B.C. in either April or July. I can't wait. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 148 Registered: Apr-04 | I've only seen pictures, but I think B.C. is the most beautiful place on the planet. OK Kano. Now we've narrowed it down. No, you don't need reviews etc to express an opinion. But using terms like "blows it out of the water" are extreme. Let's see, rated power output power for the 1905 is 75 watts. Rated power for the 430 is 65 watts. Let's even suppose that the H/K is 75 watts and the Denon is 56 watts at clipping (which is extrapolated data but a good educated guess nontheless.). Nothing is getting blown out of the water there. 20 watts produces a 2.0 dB difference in volume - undetetcalbe by the human ear. Now, I will agree with you that H/K 430 is slightly higher end than a Denon 1905. I will agree with you further that a comparable Denon to the 430 is probably the 2805. I have the 3805 and I would say it is closer to the 630 and that the 3805 is more high end than the 630. Those Burr Brown DAC's set the bar in audio and the 3805 really starts to move into flagship/separates territory. Now Vernon, if you can get the H/K for $300 less than the Denon - get the H/K. I'm all about saving money. Besides, like you said, the blue light is way cool. I plan to visit B.C. in either April or July. I can't wait. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuckcrazyPost Number: 90 Registered: Nov-04 | ok buddy here is an other invitation to visit beautiful B.C and drop by Surrey and will show you how great the sunsets look on white rock beach. |
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confused in vernon, but a little less Unregistered guest | i had a look at a yamaha 1300 over the weekend, that autosetup feature is rather appealing anybody elese tried that unit |
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Silver Member Username: KanoPost Number: 309 Registered: Oct-04 | IMO the 1500 is a vast improvement over previous models in terms of musical sound quality. The 1300 is great for HT, but the 1500 does both HT and music well. |
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confused in vernon, but a little less Unregistered guest | i have never purchaced anything very big on line before any suggestions, I imagime crunchfield is pretty good cause they be most expensive, what is the word out there |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 154 Registered: Apr-04 | Vern: I have bought and/or exchanged the following from crutchfield: Denon 2805 Denon 3805 Denon 2900 Denon 2910 Polk RTI/6's Polk RTI/8's Polk CSi3 Polk CSi5 Polk Surrounds 2 sets of speaker stands 2 AV racks Monster Speaker wires 3 sets of Monster inteconnects ...did I leave anything out? I only ever had one problem with a shipment. One of the AV racks arrived beat up. Crutchfield sent a new one out the next day. No problems with exchanges - no whining, no pouting, no doubletalk, just "Yes Mr. Rich, we're sorry that didn't work out for you, here's your return authorization number. Just hand the box to your UPS driver the next time he comes by." or " Don't worry that you're over the 3O day return period Mr. Rich, we wil be happy to exchange that for you." or "We'll be glad to extend that offer to you Mr. Rich, and we'll knock 10% of that price because you were on hold for 10 minutes." Yes, they "advertise" retail price. But sometimes they come off that a little. But I think that they are the best audio retailer (online, outlets, chains and botiques included) that I have ever dealt with. |
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New member Username: TheoilslickVernonCanada Post Number: 4 Registered: Feb-05 | thank everybody for your input, metalica will be played loud this summer in the okanagan through the HK 430 |