Archive through January 20, 2005
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 412 Registered: Oct-04 | PR - well, shucks, I'd-ah looked forward to his response. Need all the help I can get, doncha know! And cheers to y'all out there where it's summer and life is probably just fine. 'course - it's "always" summer here! Just that the mold and slime grow faster June through October! (grin) And yep - the NAD has made life a LOT better for Mer and me! Now - if I could only afford those B & W 705s!!! (hahahahaha) |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2086 Registered: Dec-03 | Ok larry! I think this is along the same lines as jan alluted too. When speakers "for the most part" are measured by the manufacturer it is done in anechoic test chamber to get the response they post for the speakers. In room response measurements will be far different. What quite a few people try to do is buy speakers and electronics that complement one another or should I say have synergy with one another to try and play as flat as possable without using the tone controls (easier said than done) Generally placemeant of the speakers adjusts the amount of bass the listener will get (closer to a wall or in a corner, increase the bass). where you more than likely have yours out in the open on stands, so you feel the need to use the tone controls. Larry that is fine and not a sin I would more than likely use the tone controls on your system as well. (within reason) But as someone else has mentioned a nice sub may cure that. Yes some do get all crazy with meters and adjustments. (I have an eq with a spectrum analyzer that generates test tones and has a calibrated microphone to play through a system and give you an idea of what you have going on) I use this to test sperakers when I'm building them or see the differences in the room the speakers are being placed in. It's a neet little tool to actually make adjustments to the room or maybe the xover of the speaker I'm working on. Most of the time I adjust by ear, but like to see with the test equipment what it is that sounds good to me.And it's pretty much the same everytime. About 2db boost from 20hz to 120hz and about the same at 4k to 16k! Now that is with a set of full range speakers with at least a 12" driver. Or a set of bookshelve/standmount with a sub! (In room response) ____________________________________________________ Bookshelves/standmounts without a sub I don't even look at the frequency response from 60hz on down but concentrate on 60hz on up because a Bookshelve/standmount speaker in my oppinion will not produce those frequencies without sacrificing or hurting something else the speaker does do well. To me pretty much any speaker (with a few exceptions) that has a single 8" driver or smaller should not be trying to reproduce frequencies from say 50hz on down. Those very low frequencies should be left to a sub! When you try and produce a small speaker that gets good bass response in the lower frequencies you are making so many adjustmeants in the xover. (mainly to bring other frequencies down) Not to mention a small speaker has to travel so far to get really deep bass (because it needs to move more air) that at least 2 bad things can happen, 1. overexcursion (driver moving more than it's designed too) 2. the driver has to move so far to repreoduce those frequencies that it is out of position to reproduce anything else correctly. That is why subs generally use a larger diameter driver. So if you truly want a flatter response in the lower region on up you need a larger driver in your main speakers or a sub to fill in the bottom. You can get the bass you want by turning up the bass on your amp while using smaller speakers but keep in mind that if you try and get to much from them they probably won't last as long and you will tend to hear the midrange become muddy bacause the speaker cone is out of position to reproduce those frequencies while trying to produce deep bass also. So the bottom line is tone controls are not hideous to use and when used mildly can yield satisfactory results. But if you are looking for a flatter more full range response with good solid deep bass you could use a sub or 2 or use larger speakers! __________________________________________________ some do not care about the lower frequencies and a pair of bookshelf/standmount speakers that produce down to 50hz reasonably flat is fine for them without using a sub. But for me a kinda rule is anything that has a single 8" driver or smaller as it's largest driver I don't depend on it pruducing anything from 80hz on down, and would use a sub to fill in the lower frequencies while letting the smaller speaker free to do what is does best without trying to strain it to fill in the lower registers. Basically I feal for the most part a drivers size determines what it can do best and when left to complete that task only is the best way to do it. |
|
Pa Rantz Unregistered guest | Larry, My Rantz wants me to ask you this: "If you are using the analogue connections from your Yamaha Universal DVD player to your Nad receiver then how is it you are able to use the bass/treble controls? He says the analogue "in" connections on his Marantz receiver bypass all dsp options and tone controls. So okay, it seems you must be using both analogue and digital connections and when you chose to play cd's the default takes you to the digital connection where the dsp comes into play. Surely there must be a quick switch to prevent this so the cd's play through the analogue connections by default. Is there not a digital/analogue switch such as the Marantz receivers have? My Rantz wonders if there someone with a Nad who can resolve this issue for you? John A perhaps? BTW - At the risk of drawing criticism from 'you know who' My Rantz once again says he agrees with Kegger - re: speakers and tone controls. His largest speakers go down to 50hz and smallest to 60hz (all 3way) but uses an 80 hz crossover to the sub gaining better bass reproduction and much less strain on the drivers - especially when some kick is warranted in playback (which is more often than not). Ah - young people and their toys - in my day I was lucky if I could listen to the radio. People today don't know . . . ah never mind! :-) |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2087 Registered: Dec-03 | pa rantz: good to meat you sir! I wonder about this: "My Rantz wants me to ask you this: "If you are using the analogue connections from your Yamaha Universal DVD player to your Nad receiver then how is it you are able to use the bass/treble controls?" If maybe like my hk reciever their are 2 tone controls on the front of the unit, a bass and treble knob that you turn with your hand for adjustement. I believe they allways work regardless of mode the reciever is in. but not positive and like you suggested someone with a nad may confirm for us. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Wouldn't it be nice to hear from Ma Cabriolet? Have to get to that someday. Hey, Pa, tell your kid if he ever shows back up on my thread, I'll be... never mind, I'll tell him myself if he shows up! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2738 Registered: Dec-03 | Pa Rantz, But, to John A he asks: "Forgiven for what?" Why, b*ggering off like that, of course. Please inform your lad that Old Dogs eagerly await the return of the prodigal Rantz. Larry, PR relays it correctly. His son has a good memory, as always. Choose "Stereo direct" for CD etc. My older NAD does not have that; I think the T763 does. If not, choose "Ext 5.1/7.1": I think it amounts to the same thing. This is probably something else the manual does not tell you. It is great to learn this trick works on a Marantz, too. Please pass on the thanks, PR. Jan, Your lucid and entertaining summary of tone controls and equalizers vis-a-vis room nodes etc. ignores one important consideration; some people enjoy having knobs to twiddle. That is the main purpose of tone controls, I think. PR, don't tell your lad. His response is broadly predictable, though his inimitable style is not. He needs no encouragement. Ask him to return and read it himself, avoiding misunderstanding and the possibilty of double entendre. Though, why break the habit of a lifetime, as it were. See also Don't latest on "Old Dogs and their jokes". Excruciating. Am moving and cannot frame lengthy posts. Probably no internet for a week. Do I hear "thank goodness"? Will post back in stereo only, but from the centre of the known world. That'll be a relief. Wonder if it still is. Best to all. |
|
Pa Rantz Unregistered guest | Ah, come on now Mr Vigne, you can tell me. I'll be happy to pass anything you have to say along to My. I know he'll be waiting with bayted breth. |
|
Pa Rantz Unregistered guest | Mr A My wants to tell you sir, that it's good to see you get back to where you belong. He hopes all goes well with the move and that you and your family will be much happier back in the ol' country. Pa Rantz P.S. Message passed on thankyou. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2740 Registered: Dec-03 | "Don't" should have been "Don's". Sorry, Don. Something wrong with my eyesight, now, as well as hearing. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2741 Registered: Dec-03 | Pa, Many thanks. Please tell MR we are not there yet. Should be Wednesday. Have rented minibus. It would be simpler to live in it for a while, but the sound system is dire; Opel must be the pits for sound. |
|
Pa Rantz Unregistered guest | My says, "Well you can't drive a NAD, how do you expect to play an Opel?" Drive safely - he adds.  |
|
Silver Member Username: OjophileON Post Number: 216 Registered: Jun-04 | Good morning, Larry. Just a quick reply before I drag my a$$ to take care of today's you-know-what... I bought quite a lot of jazz CD's over the holidays, some through Amazon.ca, others at local stores. Have to pay off the credit card balance first before I resume my buying spree. Some of the CD's that I want are Japanese pressings and are very expensive. Will write more later... |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 413 Registered: Oct-04 | Whew! I awoke to information overload! OK - one ting at a time. I play ALL CDs in the "ext5.1" mode - SACDs or regular. And strange as it may seem, whenever a "regular" CD is played, the Yamaha - not the NAD - automatically switches the output to Pro Logic II. Never heard of such a thing. further, I can use the Bass and Treble controls in that input, but no other DSP. Yes, I understand about speaker drivers and the danger of overload. Right now, I've got the bass boosted by one notch - 2 db. It adds a touch of warmth, and I think does not put too much strain on the 6 1/2" woofer? I've done rather exhaustive research, but there is little written about the Polk RTi6s - the RTi4s (slightly smaller) have gotten most of the press and reviews. Not sure why. The one thing that consumer reviews seem to have in common - as well as comments on various forums - is that the RTi6s are "bright." Yep, they sure are! And when I auditioned them in the one shop in town with dedicated listening rooms, the 6s appeared to sound "brighter" than the RTi4s! Go figger, I can't understand that. I wonder if somehow Polk accidentally got their speakers better balanced in the 4s than the 6s? Quite possibly - it is generally agreed, for example, that the Polk LSi9 bookshelf speakers sound far better than the larger LSi15s. Y'all are quite correct - I need either a sub or some larger speakers. Will do one or other once teeth are paid off (if ever!). Ok - on to other things. Don - glad you've got at least some of the discs you wanted - I await a review or some reviews over on "Discoveries," please. And I don't understand about "expensive" Japanese pressings. Are they SACDs? John A. - good luck with your move. In my lifetime I've moved 53 times, and Mer has moved (mostly with me) 38. We think that's enough, and plan to squat here 'til we grow very old and get shoveled out the door! (grin) The problem is: Mer and I actually LIKE to move! Cleans out all the closets, and starting a-fresh somehow clears the mind! (and the wallet) More anon. . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 414 Registered: Oct-04 | PS to Pa and My Rantz: I just went into the living room and checked - yep, I can boost or reduce bass and treble in the 5.1 analog mode. But had to run them up and down - just to be sure I was correct! |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I don't know where these fall on the new trick/old dog scale: "The Theil is much more expensive than most of the similarly priced competition." I just received an unsolicited application for a loan from the "Official Mortgage Company Sponsor of the National Football League". |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 417 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - I do not agree with (or understand) a single thing that you have said - but I will defend to the death your right to say it. So there. . . |
|
Pa Rantz Unregistered guest | "I don't know where these fall on the new trick/old dog scale:" My suggests that they would most likely fall directly under the old dog's tail. :-) Cheers Pa |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 745 Registered: Dec-03 | YEP.....That's where it falls. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 746 Registered: Dec-03 | HEY! Where are all the "Old Dogs"? |
|
Pa Rantz Unregistered guest | Mr Barnes According to My - one is crossing under the English Channel ('cause he can't swim), another is trying to get a NAD receiver to cooperate with Polk speakers, there's one trying to work out what tube goes where (though we know where most of them go), there's another who's thrown a hissy fit and left for some silly reason, others are listening to that wonderful surround hi-res music, another is most likely trying to crank his forty year old macs into action (someone should tell him they don't run on unleaded) and My is carefully trying not to step in some old dog's business. My asks if this helps? |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 747 Registered: Dec-03 | Just sounds like a usual day on the farm, PA. Thanks for the update, and give my best regards to MY. Cheers! |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 422 Registered: Oct-04 | WEll, I hope that some of you saw "Candide" on PBS tonight. Wonderful, spirited production, with one of my favorite conductors - Marin Alsop. If anybody saw it - I'd like your input. I usually don't go for "semi-staged" productions, but the sheer talent and drive of this production put it over the top for me. Great! Now - if I only had a better TV set! Sigh. . . |
|
Old Yellow Unregistered guest | Seems all the old dogs have finally been put down. I know the feeling. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 392 Registered: Feb-04 | Ha! That's where you're mistaken, Old Yeller! (I knew dogs couldn't spell worth shite.) Some of us have been suffering from upgrade-itis. Just bought new used speakers and am looking at tube amps to go with them (see you all soon on the tube talk thread). Also, there's work, work, work... Will post later of my upgrading project (2-channel system btw). |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 424 Registered: Oct-04 | 2 C - Ah, tubes be, or not tubes be great - that is the question. Good luck - and get ready for a glad-hand from Kegger! Let me say that I have NOTHING against 2-channel sound - for MUSIC, not movies. the NAD gives me more than my fair share of great sound - though sadly the liddle Polks will never rival the speakers that many of you enjoy. You can only get so much blood out of a turnip! More anon. . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 393 Registered: Feb-04 | Larry R. I wholeheartedly agree about the value of surround sound for experiencing movies. I too use a NAD amp (not as good as yours though) for my HT system and find it wonderful. I'm not sure if you're missing much Lar with your system. There's a lot of over-priced gear out there and people willing to sink a boatful of money to get that extra 5-10% gain in sound quality. Cheers! |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 425 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - so - what are your "new used speakers?" Always interested to see what others hear - or someting like dat. (grin) I know what you mean by "over-priced." But I'm also beginning to see/hear what people mean by "you pay for what you get." The NAD taught me that, first-hand. the Polks are fine for jazz and the small amount of folk music that we listen to - but for classical, well, they just don't hold up. I'll be listening around - just to hear possible differences. But the problem, as you know, is that all speakers sound different in showroom settings. Sigh. I liked the sound of the Paradigm studio 20s very much - but Mer "thumbs-downed" them because she said they looked cheesy. Kegger has some beautiful speakers he'd gladly sell, but without listening, I'd be very leery of buying. Nothing against either Kegger or his speakers, mind you, just that I wouldn't buy ANY speakers without actually listening to them. So - the eternal quest for "better sound" continues. More anon. . . |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2092 Registered: Dec-03 | yo 2c allright we may have another tubber in the hizzouse! As others would say I'm waiting with worms on my breath in anticipation! |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 394 Registered: Feb-04 | I got a great deal on a used pair of Audio Physic Tempo III speakers, which are scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I auditioned them along with Sonus Faber, Thiel, Magnepan, Opera, Triangle, etc. and found them to be the most musical. They were beyond my budget new, but a used pair was easier on the wallet. At the dealer, they were driven by a very cool looking Shandling integrated tube amp. The sound was just so captivating. So I'll probably do some experimenting with tube equipment. Will keep the dogs updated although this may turn out to be a long term project. Kegger, EL34 or KT88 or 6550? any thoughts? |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2095 Registered: Dec-03 | Wow pretty impessive lOOking speakers there 2C! The kt88 and 6550 are almost the same tube and most amps that take one have no problem using the other! Personally I find the el34 to be a little more syrupy and not quite as much umph in the bass region. If your going to biamp then maybe this would be a good thing. But if your going to use one amp I'd probably go with a kt88/6550 jobby! You may even want to considder a 6L6/5881 amp. To me the 6l6/5881 is the least syrupy of the three tube amps. So far my experience is! El34/6ca7 has the most midrange loving tone with less control of bass. 6l6/5881 has the least midrange loving tone with extreme controll of bass. Kt88/6550 somewhere in the middle, nice midrange bloom with good control of bass. With a propper running amp that is either new or has been brought up to todays standards I feel they all have no real issues in the treble department. Right now I'm really liking what the rogue 88 kt88/6550 amp sounds like in my system. Now none of the sounds of these amps are set in stone and everybodys sounds different, from the design they chose to the transformers used to the tube compliment used in the driver section. not to mention the output tubes themselves. Then you have the type of capacitors used in the curcuit. But at the moment I feal the descriptions I've given is a general rule of the particular tubes the amps use. I'm not sure how many are like this but my rogue 88 can use a wide range of tubes including kt88/6550 and el34's. I just ran some el34's in the unit , some mullards and sylvania fat bodies. After compairing I went back to the kt88's which seem to work really well on my current setup. I see your speakers are 90db sens and 4 ohm. I hate to keep mentioning my rogue 88 but I like the design of ultrlinear 65watts a channel and triode at 35 watts a channel. I'd suggest something along those lines for power requirements and it's nice to have the choice! I'm running in triode at 35watts on 98db sens speakers and find I have more than enough power and it's a little smoother than the ultrlinear! Your 90db speakers may like the 60watts better but with the switch it's like having 2 different amps. I highly recomend the rogue 88 and feel it would more than likely work wonderful on those speakers. That is my input, by allmeans I would not take it as gospel! That is just what I feal at this moment in my experience of tubes and what I've been able to gather from other sources. Others including Jan may feel different and would not hurt my feelings if they post things to the contrary! That is just my honest feelings at this point! Hope that was help 2c and hope others give there view and you find the right amp for you. Any more questions I'm all ears. Any feels I should post this on the tube amp thread may post it there themselves or tell me too and I will. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 430 Registered: Oct-04 | Kegger, my friend: Boy, I'd love to see you get into a forum-argument with somebody who claims: "there's no difference between one amplifier and another!" Stand back! (grin) I heard obvious differences between the Onkyo and the NAD - so I'm guessing that your tube amps would be even more of a change from the "standard" solid state amp. 2C - I'll have to look up those speakers - never heard of them, which doesn't mean much, as I've never heard of a LOT of HiFi equipment! Congratulations - and may your music swing gently. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 749 Registered: Dec-03 | Old dogs wander off every now and then........only to return home. I think we should rename this thread "THE DOG HOUSE". I'm sure it feels like home for a lot of us. LOL! 2C, Enjoy the new speakers. Keep us posted on your tube quest. I should get my Jolida in about two weeks. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 395 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Much thanks. You've answered several questions I had. I was wondering how much power would be required to drive the speakers to their full potential. The KT88 seems to provide a little more juice than the EL34. Larry, Thanks. I had never heard of Audio Physic either. It's a small German speaker manufacturer. I actually went to the store to listen to different speakers, but came away really impressed with the sound of the APs. More later, dogs. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 431 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - Oooooeeee! Looked up your "new" speakers! They sound wonderful! (should say they "look" wonderful, of course!) One thing I've noticed in researching speakers. Many of them use a pair of rather small woofers or mid-range/woofers to produce low notes that I thought impossible for, say, 5" speakers to produce. Does running them in pairs do that? Hmmm. . . learning all the time. I note that the "good" Polk speakers - the LSi9s, use a pair of 5.25" woofers - and from what I heard in the showroom, they are really great! Anyway, your new speakers look great, and that, for my dear Merri, is Vital to happiness in the speaker department! (grin) She turned thumbs down on the Paradigms, but would very much like the B & W 705s. She calls them "boffo." Hmmm. . . But that's just for the looks. As we all know, the other half of the marital equation is imperative to consider when acquiring new audio equipment - especially those "boxes that sit out in the room!" (double grin) More anon. . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 432 Registered: Oct-04 | KEGGER: Forgot to add to above post. Have you ever heard Carver amps? Reason I ask is I used to own one - and many people swear that they come closest to the "tube" sound of any amp on the market - except real tube ones, natch! Just wondering - and I sure do miss that Carver! Sigh. 200 watts/channel and it never sweat, even at high listening levels. Oh, yes, it was 2-channel stereo - remember those? (GRIN) |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 396 Registered: Feb-04 | Larry, My parents have a Carver amp driving Boston Acoustic speakers and it sounds fantastic. I'd describe the sound as full-bodied, lush, and slightly on the dark side. Many solid state amps claim to produce a tube-like sound, including my current Audio Analogue amp. Why not just get a tube amp if that's the sound solid state amps try to emulate? I've found that designs using two smaller woofers rather than one large woofer generally provide tighter, more tuneful bass performance. I was surprised how low the AP Tempo could go, given its size, but probably needs a sub to round out the very low end. I'm not too concerned about it--yet. I agree the B&W 700 series looks really sharp, but the B&W sound just doesn't do it for me. The best looking speakers I've seen so far are the Sonus Faber Cremona. Look it up if you have a minute. It's a knock-out. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2101 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry "carver" I've never owned one myself a friend of mine did back in the day! I do remember both us thought it was a wonderful amp with a nice mellow tone to it. As to your queery about multiple smaller bass drivers, yes that is how some companies match the speed of the rest of the system in the bass department. The speakers I looked up to see what 2c was getting I mistook for another pair that have "There are also four 6.5 inch woofers per speaker that provide the speed of a small driver with a total cone area that extends bass down to 28 Hz" so yes you can use multiple smaller drivers to get the same surface area as a larger driver to move the same amount of air and the little guys don't have to go into overdrive to get it! That's why if you noticed my posts from earlier I say single small drivers have problems in the really low notes! 2c your new speakers have 3 drivers and not some more on the sides in the bottem of the cabinet? If so a nice el34 with about 40 watts a channel would more than likely work nice also. Then a sub as you mentioned to fill in the lower registers. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "The KT88 seems to provide a little more juice than the EL34." Indeed it does. The tube type you choose will largely come down to how much money you have to spend. The division of EL34, 6L6, 6550 are telling you how many watts of power can be dissipated by the tube. These are all "modern" tetrode (beam power) or pentode tubes, not to be confused with triodes. In broad, general terms if you have a pair of EL34's per channel in a push pull Class AB amp you are going to be looking at an amplifier that will be rated at around 35-40 watts per channel. 6L6's will be around 40-50 watts and 6550 will be 50-65 watts. These are general guidelines and can be different for any given tube set. You can also run any tube type in parallel arrangement which has its advantages and disadvantages. For the purpose of our discussion let's say you've decided you want an amp that uses a 6L6 tube type. (It's a good choice since that's my favorite tube type.) When you begin to look at the 6L6 tube, you will see quite a few variations on the basic 6L6 design. These developed over the years and were intended to serve different needs. Some designs were meant to withstand greater shock and continue to work to spec, some were meant for more industrial use and long life, while others were meant only for consumer audio. Their sound and power output were what set them apart from the other 6L6 type tubes. Some audio 6L6 tubes can output more wattage than another 6L6 depending on the voltage the tube can withstand. One thing is certain, running a tube that can dissipate 375 volts on the plate at a higher voltage of, say, 450 volts is a sure route to blowing out tubes quickly and will only gain the amplifier manufacturer specs on paper and not good sound. Here's the basic description of a 6L6: http://www.kbapps.com/audio/tubemanual/153.html This comes from the RCA tube guide: http://www.kbapps.com/tubemanual.html#TubeApplications After the basic tube type, the amount of voltage run at the plate and screen will change the wattage capacity and sound slightly as will the grid bias voltage. Grid bias will largely affect the class operation of a tube. Grid bias can be either fixed or cathode bias arrangement. Triode, Ultralinear, Pentode, the McIntosh Unity Coupled or Output Transformerless configuration will also affect the wattage available at the 8 Ohm tap on the speaker outputs. There are some other configurations of output design, but, these are the most likley to still be in use if you are looking at a relatively new amplifer or even one that has survived the ages and been refurbished. Using a different impedance tap will affect the wattage to a given loudspeaker load. (This is, of course, impossible to do with an output transformerless design.) All of the above will affect the sound of a 6L6 tube to some extent, some more than others. Naturally, the type of rectification and the driver set in front of the outputs will be a large factor in what you will eventually pick. I'd stick with 12AX7/12AT7/12AU7 drivers, though My Mac's have a 12BH7 in the driver stage. But that's a whole diiferent discussion. We won't go there now. After you've chosen an amp with fixed bias, Unity Coupled outputs with a plate voltage at 450 volts and a bias on the grid at -55v DC, you will also have to choose what brand of tube you will want to run as your 6L6GC; or, whether you want to run a 6L6GC at all. You can choose between the many variations on the basic 6L6 design. A KT66 is slightly different in its overall construction and sound from a straight ahead 6L6. A 5881 is not the same as a 6L6 or a KT66. Though all three tube types will interchange with one another in the same amplifier. In a fixed bias amp, it is mostly a matter of plugging in the tube type you choose while staying within the generic guidelines of the amp wants to see a 6L6 tube type. Naturally you can rewire the amp to accept other tube types to change the sound of the amp; but, do you really want to? Most tube manufacturers make a tube that will fit into several tube types and its variations. While a KT66 is not the same tube as a 6L6, not all KT66's are equal in construction either. The best I've heard in my amplifiers are some NOS Gold Lions from England in the 1960's. They are physically huge tube bottles that wouldn't allow me to place the cages on my amplifiers. Before you begin looking into tube manufacturers, you might want to consider whether you want to go with a currently produced tube or if you want to pay the price and try either a NOS (New Old Stock) tube or possibly a set of used (but graded) old stock tubes. This would be somewhat determined by the sound you want to have as the old stock tubes are generally considered the best built and therefore the best sounding tubes for any given tube type. The classic RCA and Sylvania 6L6 tubes are considered the benchmark the new tube makers shoot for when they try to design a 6L6 tube to give what is considered classsic "tube sound". Classic tube sound also depends on whether your going to use the 6L6 in an audio amplifier or a guitar amplifier. Choose wrong and the result could be very disappointing. You could decide you really don't want "tube sound" and that would take you in another direction all together in what you would be looking at in your choice of tubes. If we allow that you think you prefer a more classic tube sound, then you can decide whether you want to go with the original RCA tubes or try a new stock tube that has been designed to sound and operate as much like the old RCA as possible given the changes that have taken place in tube manufacturing in the last 30 years. Where most of the tubes the "classic" tube companies designed around were built either in America or England, neither of those countries have operating tube manufacture anymore. That means you have to decide between Russian or Chinese tubes and, of course, what area of those two countries you want to have your tubes made in. This is where the decision as to what tube you should run really gets complicated! The intermingling of assests from the various Russian companies such as Sovetk, Svetlana and Electro Harmonix has left a lot of tubes that were well regarded not that long ago being mixed with new tubes that are not manufatured in the same plant, with the same equipment and to the same standards. The same goes for the Chinese tubes. Naturally the Russian tubes are not considered to sound the same as the Chinese tubes in the first place. To make a long story short, you decide you want the Svetlana Winged 6L6GC with the brown ceramic base that came out of the St. Petersburg plant before it was temporarily shut down to allow for the conversion to the new owners and the change over in manufacturing equipment and workers. You call the shop that you have determined has the best price and avaialability on the tube and they tell you the tube is out of stock and they won't be able to ship for the next three to four months assuming they can still get that exact tube from the supplier they had been using. They guarantee the price if you give them your cash now, but reserve the right to raise the price if the tubes come into them at a higher cost. Or, they have a JJ tube that is really close to being the same tube as you first chose, but, it costs more money. You could, at this point, go with your second choice which was a Chinese KT66 tube, but, that would change the entire balance of your system. That is a very basic idea of what to consider when you ask what tube you should be looking at. I've left out a lot of the more nuanced considerations because I knew you wanted this to be a simple answer. I hope that gives you a bit of an idea what tube type you should buy. Please don't ask about transformers. They are the real heart of a tube amplifier and will do more to determine the sound of the amplifier than anything we've discussed so far. And caps and resistors; not to mention jacks, connectors and isolation systems (to mention just a few), are another topic worthy of discussion. Here's some other information that you might find useful: http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/directory/directory.htm http://www.ken-gilbert.com/techstuff/vtf.html As to running a tetrode or a pentode in triode configuration, I doubt you want me to go into that discussion either. If you will look at the last link I gave, you will see a brief comment on the benefits and disadvantages as seen by the author. Have fun with tubes! |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Now, Larry, shall we address your question? Here's the skinny; a speaker's bass response is determined by two basic factors. The size of the box and the efficiency of the system. If you change one of those two you will change the bass cutoff frequency. You can take a 4" cone and, given the needed stiffness in the cone material, put it in a large enough box and choose how loud it will play (meaning how much power it will require to make sound) and that 4" driver will reach down into the low 40 Hz to upper 30 Hz range. After that the laws of physics eventually catch up to you. Now how you get the box size and efficiency is a matter of the enclosure type and that has many variables. As an example, the PCM DB1+ is a small speaker at 289 x 155 x 234 mm. It is slightly smaller than my LS3/5a's. It uses a roughly 4" woofer in a transmisson line enclosure. It has usable bass response to about 45 HZ. With a single driver. I doubt you want an answer as simple as what tube you should use; and, that means we'll just leave it at that. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2104 Registered: Dec-03 | Anyone interested in tubes should check out the tube talk thread started by rick! https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/111344.html I just posted mine and Jans last tube discussions there! Jan hope you don't mind I posted it there! |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | NOPE! |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 399 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, The new speakers (not in my hands yet) have three drivers. As you know, its sensitivity rating 90dB with a nominal impedance of 4 ohm. When I was doing research, I found this article in German which said, I think, that the speaker has a relatively flat impedance curve that doesn't dip below 4 ohm. Based on my limited technical knowledge, it shouldn't take too much power to drive these babies. I'm going to try first with my current 40wpc ss amp and then later pick up a tube amp in the 35+wpc range. I can tell this going to be a lot of fun (or a big hassle). Jan, Thanks much for that wealth of info. It's exactly what I'm looking for. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 434 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - thanks for the driver-info. I had to take back some library books, soooooo - as I had nothing better to do, went down to the shop that sells the Polk speakers. Took in the string quartet album that I've used as a "base" when comparing speakers. Asked to here the Polk LSi9s, which sell for $900 a pair. Well, the mope who came out didn't know a LOT about speakers, but since the front desk probably felt I wasn't going to buy anyway - they put me onto either a newbie or a dummie - not sure which. (grin) Anyway - into the room we went, and he asked if I wanted to hear the speakers on a 50-watt-per channel receiver. I said, uh, nope, what I really wanted was an amp that could actually drive those 4-ohm speakers. Without blowing itself up. He didn't get it. but after awhile we DID find a so-so Denon 100-watt-ch. receiver, and hooked up the 9-puppies. Then he tried to put the CD in a Denon 1910, and I said I wanted something better - a 2910 or higher. He had to go outside to ask somebody for help. Sigh. Anyway - long story short - once the CD actually got to playing, those LSi9s sounded VERY good! I asked how long they'd been there, and the second guy said about two weeks - but how long they've actually been playing, I don't know. Break-in? Well. . . OK - I thought that, with only 5.25" drivers, one of which rolls off at 200 Hz, the sound might be thin. Not so. Got to like them very, very much - sounded as good as the Paradigms (at least what I remember of them!) Moral - Jan and all are right here - and I have been under a misconception for a long time. the bass on the speakers was full and tight. And the tweeter they use (much better than my speakers) was clean and precise. Now - I'm thinking that I might go with a pair of the LSi9s - if I can find some used ones. Looked on eBay, and there are some on auction, with $400 price so far - but the auction isn't over yet. Even so - no money for speakers at the moment. But my education continues! Thanks Jan. Thanks Two Cents. Thanks Kegger. As always, I get good advice here on the forum. Youze guyz want to teach some of deze mopes about awdeeoh? Hmmm. . . And to think - I gave up my Carver to go sailing! Whadda dummy. . . |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "Youze guyz want to teach some of deze mopes about awdeeoh?" NOPE! 2c - I forgot to ask whether we should discuss hard wired amps vs. circuit board amps. I guess I just never dreamed you might even consider an amp that wasn't hard wired. |
|
Marc C Unregistered guest | *repost - wanted to share* Hey All, Just picked up a pair of vintage JBL L36's monitors off some nice kid with dyed black hair and a Black Flag t-shirt from the Lower Haight Street area of town. (God bless Haight Street. Despite the Dotcom boom and all it's destruction of all that was Just - small traces of good still linger in San Francisco....) They came complete with rock and counterculture stickers and melted candlewax. Like a counterculture kid and a good San Franciscan, instead of trying to sell them on Craigslist (popular local website) or putting them on Ebay, he simply listed them as FREE - in hopes someone would pick them up from his house to enjoy them, thus avoiding putting them out in the rain we are getting so much of. He received tons of emails from people asking specs, and one from me saying,"I WOULD LOVE THOSE." What part of "FREE VINTAGE JBL'S" do people not understand? After days of phone tag, I went and picked them up - heavy as hell - whipped them home, and hooked them up to my lousy yet powerful mid 80's JVC receiver. I sat back amazed: 1. They didn't blow up. 2. My receiver didn't blow up. 3. The sound was just incredible... A bit bright or forward, as JBL's are, yet something so "what is recorded is what is there". And such presence. And they can play LOUD. I think they appeal to what is most likely the West Coast sound that someone of my age and geographic location suffers from. Ahhh....I sighed deep contentment and then raised my arms in happiness at my find. These are a pair of speakers I wish I'd had the brains to get 15 years ago. Something told me that,"this is THE sound I love" and that all others, although possibly beautiful or impressive, might sound funny. (Granted, I'll still try them  In the first 10 seconds of listening to these there were the "Never heard THAT before" and "Oh, so THAT'S what this receiver sounds like". *sniff*...they just bring out the difficiencies in my system so beautifully...*sniff* How enriching a great stereo system is. And as you guys know - a great one doesn't cost squat with some homework and patience. Now we're not talking audiophile here, but just something that really gets the blood pumping,(or at least mine). Welp, just wanted to drop in, see how the Old Dogs are doing, and share a story. And also raise a glass to Music, Music Lovers, and a good system that gets ya going. I hope all are doing well. Old Dogs still barkin'... Best, Marc C P.S. So Kegger, what would be a good, cheap tube amp? lol! *to which 2C and he replied "Jolida!"* |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2742 Registered: Dec-03 | Brief post to report resumed radio contact, but brief. Indeed I worried we might have to swim at one point. Have to return car then fly back. Yes, it is the still the centre of the known world, and they've mostly come to live here, too, as far as I can see. Wonderful. Love it. News item I caught recently, Abbey Road is now open for visitors: http://www.abbeyroad.com/ Best to all. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 437 Registered: Oct-04 | John A. - Welcome home, wherever you are at present. Hope you get settled in without undue angst, and that your lives will be richer for the move. Looking forward to your insightful postings again, sir! |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Welcome back, John. Things have been slow without your input. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 400 Registered: Feb-04 | Report from Upgrade Gulch New used speakers arrived, but they're not the ones listed on dealer's website. Instead of the Audio Physic Tempo III, I think I got an earlier version, with one less woofer and not as pleasing to the eye. Sigh. Anyway, I went ahead and connected it to my system. First the bad news. The speakers don't have much bass slam. I put on some Peter Gabriel and early Who (Keith Moon era) and that low frequency body slamming groove just wasn't there. It's possible that a more powerful amp would help. More likely a subwoofer should do the trick. Well, this was expected as my previous post noted. These aren't the best speakers for rock. Now on to the good news, rather I should say the great news. The speakers are absolutely amazing in the upper bass, midrange, and upper bass. Familiar music is taking on a new life with these speakers. There is added clarity and detail in everything I listen to. With voices, the singers seem to have improved enunciation. I hear more than notes, voices have characteristcs--reediness, chestiness, or breathiness. In other words, the voices sound more life-like than like processed sound. With instruments, the same added dimension is conveyed. Instead of hearing a violin note, I hear the bow sliding across the string creating that note. I hear the brush sliding around the cymbal in the most subtle gesture that was missing through my old speakers. It's as if a veil has been lifted on the music. The imaging has also improved, adding to that sense of listening to a live performance. The speakers are so accurate that it has revealed another major weakness in my system. No matter which record is played on my Music Hall turntable the sound is constricted and lifeless. Fortunately my amp and cd player were up to the challenge. CDs now sound as good as SACDs. Yes, even the ambiance or atmosphere of the venue is conveyed on well-recorded cds. I've been considering experimenting with tube amps, which I'm still planning to do, but it may be later than sooner. I'm just astounded by the improved sound I'm getting with these new speakers. Maybe a new turntable will be the next upgrade, as I slide down Upgrade Gulch. (I would still like to hear your take on circuit board amps, Jan.) |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 401 Registered: Feb-04 | Report from Upgrade Gulch New used speakers arrived, but they're not the ones listed on dealer's website. Instead of the Audio Physic Tempo III, I think I got an earlier version, with one less woofer and not as pleasing to the eye. Sigh. Anyway, I went ahead and connected it to my system. First the bad news. The speakers don't have much bass slam. I put on some Peter Gabriel and early Who (Keith Moon era) and that low frequency body slamming groove just wasn't there. It's possible that a more powerful amp would help. More likely a subwoofer should do the trick. Well, this was expected as my previous post noted. These aren't the best speakers for rock. Now on to the good news, rather I should say the great news. The speakers are absolutely amazing in the upper bass, midrange, and treble. Familiar music is taking on a new life with these speakers. There is added clarity and detail in everything I listen to. With voices, the singers seem to have improved enunciation. I hear more than notes, voices have characteristcs--reediness, chestiness, or breathiness. In other words, the voices sound more life-like than like processed sound. With instruments, the same added dimension is conveyed. Instead of hearing a violin note, I hear the bow sliding across the string creating that note. I hear the brush sliding around the cymbal in the most subtle gesture that was missing through my old speakers. It's as if a veil has been lifted on the music. The imaging has also improved, adding to that sense of listening to a live performance. The speakers are so accurate that it has revealed another major weakness in my system. No matter which record is played on my Music Hall turntable the sound is constricted and lifeless. Fortunately my amp and cd player were up to the challenge. CDs now sound as good as SACDs. Yes, even the ambiance or atmosphere of the venue is conveyed on well-recorded cds. I've been considering experimenting with tube amps, which I'm still planning to do, but it may be later than sooner. I'm just astounded by the improved sound I'm getting with these new speakers. Maybe a new turntable will be the next upgrade, as I slide down Upgrade Gulch. (I would still like to hear your take on circuit board amps, Jan.) |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 401 Registered: Feb-04 | Report from Upgrade Gulch New used speakers arrived, but they're not the ones listed on dealer's website. Instead of the Audio Physic Tempo III, I think I got an earlier version, with one less woofer and not as pleasing to the eye. Sigh. Anyway, I went ahead and connected it to my system. First the bad news. The speakers don't have much bass slam. I put on some Peter Gabriel and early Who (Keith Moon era) and that low frequency body slamming groove just wasn't there. It's possible that a more powerful amp would help. More likely a subwoofer should do the trick. Well, this was expected as my previous post noted. These aren't the best speakers for rock. Now on to the good news, rather I should say the great news. The speakers are absolutely amazing in the upper bass, midrange, and treble. Familiar music is taking on a new life with these speakers. There is added clarity and detail in everything I listen to. With voices, the singers seem to have improved enunciation. I hear more than notes, voices have characteristcs--reediness, chestiness, or breathiness. In other words, the voices sound more life-like than like processed sound. With instruments, the same added dimension is conveyed. Instead of hearing a violin note, I hear the bow sliding across the string creating that note. I hear the brush sliding around the cymbal in the most subtle gesture that was missing through my old speakers. It's as if a veil has been lifted on the music. The imaging has also improved, adding to that sense of listening to a live performance. The speakers are so accurate that it has revealed another major weakness in my system. No matter which record is played on my Music Hall turntable the sound is constricted and lifeless. Fortunately my amp and cd player were up to the challenge. CDs now sound as good as SACDs. Yes, even the ambiance or atmosphere of the venue is conveyed on well-recorded cds. I've been considering experimenting with tube amps, which I'm still planning to do, but it may be later than sooner. I'm just astounded by the improved sound I'm getting with these new speakers. Maybe a new turntable will be the next upgrade, as I slide down Upgrade Gulch. (I would still like to hear your take on circuit board amps, Jan.) |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1241 Registered: Aug-04 | Two Cents Glad you like your new speakers Two Cents Glad you like your new speakers Two Cents Glad you like your new speakers :-) John A Glad you and family arrived safe and sound. But I see from your post that the fat lady is still to sing. Take care. |
|
Silver Member Username: OjophileON Post Number: 221 Registered: Jun-04 | John A, Good to hear that the move went well. All the best to you and the Missus and the family. Regards, Don |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 403 Registered: Feb-04 | Ha ha, Rantz. Sorry, folks, about the triple post. I'm so excited that I had to say it three times |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 438 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - dat's OK, ole buddy - I get a bit over-the-top excited about new equipment, too! Witness my gushings over the NAD receiver! (grin) Sorry that the new speakers aren't quite what you thought you ordered, though! Any thoughts about sending them back? Jest wunnering. . . A long, hard day of volunteering at the local Art League art festival has left my legs numb and my brain not far behind. Will post more on the morrow. . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 404 Registered: Feb-04 | Larry, Art festivals tire me out too. They're like endurance events. Was Mer one of the displaying artists? You ask a great question that I've been mulling over the weekend. I'm not sure if I'm going to send the speakers back. I'll definitely call the dealer and let him know that the product wasn't what was advertised. What was a great deal turned out to be a good or average deal. So, if any of you wise old dogs have any advice on the matter, I'm all ears. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 440 Registered: Oct-04 | Two Cents, et al: No, Mer wasn't one of the exhibiting artists - we both volunteered to help out with ticket-selling, etc. On our feet all afternoon both days - and this Old Dog's, uh, "dogs" were howling! As to taking back the speakers - hey, if they weren't what was advertised, I wouldn't keep them, UNLESS they sounded as good or better than the ones you heard. Your call, my friend. . . Now: my "from the dummy" question of the day. Is it possible for a stereo system to sound fuller, or just plain "better" after it's been on and playing for 20 minutes or more? I swear that mine does just that - but of course, to me, that also seems impossible. I've read several articles where the writer always fired up the stereo a half-hour before using it, and such, but thought it the writing of an audiophile who might hear things that I don't - or that aren't there! (grin) Some of Mer's Mensa friends sent through one of their new "daffynitions" yesterday - here goes. Ignoranus (look closely at spelling) "a person who is not only stupid, but an A-H as well!" Gee, I've met a lot of those! More anon. . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 441 Registered: Oct-04 | Don RX-1 - a PS here - in my reading, I see where the "vifa" tweeter in yur new/old speakers is the same, highly-regarded one that's in the Polk LSi9s, which are the "good grade" Polk speakers I'm thinking about. The highs, in my listening to them at the store, are much cleaner than the tweeters on my "cheap-oh" Polk RTi6s. That might be part of why your speakers sound so good - even though you may eventually "dump" them. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Just for those who care: With John about to be inhabiting the center of the known universe (funny, I thought that was somewhere in Kansas), this bit of history. 1/14/1784: Treaty of Paris, officially ending U.S. War of Independence, ratified by Congress. By its terms, 'His Britannic Majesty' is bound to withdraw his armies without 'carrying away any Negroes or other property of American inhabitants.' |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Just for those who care: With John about to be inhabitting the center of the known universe (funny, I thought that was somewhere in Kansas), this bit of history. 1/14/1784: Treaty of Paris, officially ending U.S. War of Independence, ratified by Congress. By its terms, 'His Britannic Majesty' is bound to withdraw his armies without 'carrying away any Negroes or other property of American inhabitants.' |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2108 Registered: Dec-03 | 2C ; "You ask a great question that I've been mulling over the weekend. I'm not sure if I'm going to send the speakers back. I'll definitely call the dealer and let him know that the product wasn't what was advertised. What was a great deal turned out to be a good or average deal. So, if any of you wise old dogs have any advice on the matter, I'm all ears." I know what your feeling right now about what you thgought was the incredable deal and the delema yuou ask yourself. And the only thing I can say is if you knew what the speakers were going to be before you bought them! would you have spent what did for them? If the anwser is no then my feeling is they go back. (sorry you asked) As to your email question I'll get back to you! |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2109 Registered: Dec-03 | larry! "Now: my "from the dummy" question of the day. Is it possible for a stereo system to sound fuller, or just plain "better" after it's been on and playing for 20 minutes or more? I swear that mine does just that - but of course, to me, that also seems impossible. I've read several articles where the writer always fired up the stereo a half-hour before using it, and such, but thought it the writing of an audiophile who might hear things that I don't - or that aren't there! (grin) " larry my oppinion absolutly ,Ive had several systems that sound better once on and warmed up! Some more drastically different then others but for the most usually a system will sound better after being on for awhile! So your not just hearing things! |
|
Silver Member Username: OjophileON Post Number: 223 Registered: Jun-04 | Larry, You're right about the highs and, I may add, the mids on the PSB's and the Paradigms sound so good -- never harsh, never too bright. Just imagine the muted trumpet sound that Miles Davis is known for: it comes out so naturally without any hint of roughness. I like the "ignoranus" spelling. How about this: INCOMPLET |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 405 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, Thanks. Your answer makes a lot of sense. I'm just upset that the product advertised isn't what I got. If someone sells you a '01 Corvette at great price, but it turns out to be a '97 Corvette, wouldn't you be a little p.o.ed? The dilemma is that '97 Corvette pretty darn good, but isn't as nicely syled as the '01. Larry, I personally have noticed my stereo sounds better after 15 to 30 minutes of warming up. My dummy qestion of the day is about the break-in period. Is this the period when equipment actually gets better or the time it takes for the listener to get used to the sonic characteristics of the equipment? |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2110 Registered: Dec-03 | "My dummy qestion of the day is about the break-in period. Is this the period when equipment actually gets better or the time it takes for the listener to get used to the sonic characteristics of the equipment?" I believe a little of both! |
|
Silver Member Username: OjophileON Post Number: 224 Registered: Jun-04 | What I know and have always believed in is that speakers do sound better after the "break-in period." Maybe it's really the speakers, not the amp or receiver that really benefit from it over time. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 442 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C & Kegger - thanks - yes, I somehow "know" that the system does sound better after just being "on" for awhile. I know I'm venturing into the realms of "voodoo hearing" but I also know that there is a difference - to me, anyway. Don: Yeah, I do know about the speaker break-in period, but my question had more to do with a day-to-day difference. The Polks did sound a bit "muffled" when I first got them - but I kept them on for several days running, with CD on repeat, then "thought" I started to hear a difference. Now, however, I'm just referring to what I hear when I turn on the set and play a CD, and then come back a half-hour later or so, and play the same CD again. It somehow does sound warmer and fuller. But - heck - maybe I'm the one who's warmer and fuller! (double grin) 2C - unless you really love those speakers, I'd think about taking them back. Are they an older version, or a different speaker altogether? Either way, you're not get what was advertised. I hate to use the word "cheated," but in a way, that's about it. Kegger - one more thing - when you talk about some of your systems sounding better after warm-up, are you talking digital or tube amps? More anon. . . |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1243 Registered: Aug-04 | I agree that sound seem to improve slightly if the components have been turned on for a while. Also, does anyone experience similar differences between high and low humidities? If so, is it a reaction from our ears in relation to this or the sound pressure pushing through the heavier moist air. Maybe both perhaps - or some other explanation? What about sound differences with hot and cold temperatures (regardless of humidity) - anyone have any thoughts? Little things can make a big difference - some of you may have seen how I had mounted my center speaker above our Plasma display. Doing that improved the sound remarkedly from when the speaker was in the open cabinet below the display panel, but lately I felt there was still some room for improvement. I had left it as it was because of the heat rising from the vents along the top rear of the display panel may have damaged the speaker (or it's veneer). Yesterday I placed a sheet of plywood over the mount tray (with spacers) to protect the speaker and lowered the bracket by about 4 inches (bringing the tweeters within 12 ins in line with those in the l & R mains. I also tilted the speaker more accurately to the listening position. The exercise made the difference I was looking for: the imaging seems even more accurate making the surround process more true and focussed. I can't account as to why this small change made a notable difference, but it sure shows it pays to play around with things - sometimes. Two Cents, If you like the speakers try for a reduction in price. If he baulks threaten action through Ebay for misleading buyers. There's no harm in trying. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Now that the DSL line is cooperating, I can finish what I began yesterday. In the just for those who care column, on 01/17: 1945 Soviet and Polish forces liberated Warsaw during WWII. 1961 In his farewell address, President Eisenshower warned against the rise of the "military-industrial complex." On 01/18: 1912 English explorer Robert F. Scott and his expedition reached the South Pole, only to discover that Roald Amundsen had gotten there first. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 444 Registered: Oct-04 | My Rantz - welcome back to the kennel - but I sorta miss "Pa" Rantz - he was a lot more fun than you are! (triple grin) I know full well what you mean by speaker placement making I-can-hear-that differences. Example: my Polks still sounded less-than-good, until one of you great audio-types pointed out phase coherence, or some such. Anyway - the speakers involved in the article(s) had their woofers in front of the tweeters, due to the slant-back of the cabinet fronts. When I "tipped" the Polks back by putting 3/4-inch rubber spacers under the front, the sound got more even. Hmmm. . didn't think it would make that much difference. "Aiming" your center speaker at you I would think should make a marked difference! Evidence of speakers "too high" comes in at my friend's house - the one with built-in speakers way up in his 12-foot-high ceilings. He does NOT to want speakers beside the TV - preferring, he says, the ceiling speakers. Well, OK, but just try to make sense of movie dialog that comes - not from the speaker's mouth - but from somewhere on a mountaintop! Ha! Or should I say "Ugh!" John A. - IF you can read this. You are vindicated, my black-line-on-CDs friend! Audio engineer Verne, out in LA, posted me a LONG and involved e-mail last night. Seems that he and some friends at a couple of the area FM stations were "messing around" with waveform monitors and SPL meters and I don't know what-all. (he admitted to having some "liquid support" for their quest) They wanted to know if a CD that Verne had a hand in recording sounded as good as it possibly could. So, into the studio they went, and hooked up all the gear, and started playing. Their equipment includes B & W Nautilus monitoring speakers, so it's fairly hi-end stuff. What they finally determined - at the insistence of one of the FM guys - was that if they SANDED DOWN THE OUTER RIM of the CD, there was a SLIGHT difference in wave-form, and the CD sounded smoother. Hmmm. . . they said - let's take this one step further. Nobody wanted to revert to the old "green pen" tweak - but there were hundreds of Sanford "sharpie" BLACK markers in the studio - for marking-up musical scores. First, they took three new CDs - left one alone, sended the outer rim of the second, then sanded and black-lined the third. Results - TO THEIR HEARING and to the test equipment - the sanded and black-lined disc DID have a smoother sound. His explanation had to do with laser-refraction indexes, etc., which I did not fully understand. But apparently they are taking their testing a giant step forward - and going to friends at CalTech - where they have super-hi-speed micro-photo equipment. They say they want to "shoot" a laser beam (how the heck do you photograph a laser?) as it hits the pits and lands on a CD - then correlate what they see with what electrical impulses - and their waveform - show them. That all sounds like a ton of work - but it might FINALLY show ( IF ) the black-line-and-sanding tweak can be physically shown, as well as heard. guess they won't know for a month or more, but I'll let all know IF they succeed. Meanwhile, I took Verne's advice, and sanded down - NOT WITH SANDPAPER - but with one of those 3M green kitchen "scrubbies" - some of my more shrill CDs. It 'SEEMED' to make the sound smoother. Mer came in, and agreed that there was a difference, but not much of one. Back to you, MR - yes, your "speaker tweak" should have a marked difference - and I hope that you find audio-nirvana after all that work!!! Jan V. - what can I say? Thanks for the bits and pieces of history - how soon we forget. More anon. . . |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 445 Registered: Oct-04 | Two Cents - as a very old dog, I often get confused. In re-reading your earlier posts - did you buy these "new" speakers of yours off eBay? or from a dealer in or near your city? I'm still of a mind that you should return them, because they are not, as you say, what you thought you were getting. Courage!! |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2111 Registered: Dec-03 | larry! "Kegger - one more thing - when you talk about some of your systems sounding better after warm-up, are you talking digital or tube amps?" Well yes tube amps definatly like to be warmed up but I'm talking pretty much anything in the audio making chain including speakers. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2112 Registered: Dec-03 | "What about sound differences with hot and cold temperatures (regardless of humidity) - anyone have any thoughts?" My thinking would be at a colder temmperature things would me more rigid and may not "flow" smoothly (like a driver cone). |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 406 Registered: Feb-04 | Larry R., Kegger, Rantz--Thanks for your advice. I ended up returning the speakers. I really liked them but did not absolutely have to have them, so they went packing after a nice weekend stand. Now my old speakers are hooked up and they sound worse than ever. Oh well. To answer your question, Larry, I bought them from a dealer in southern Cal, who had it listed on their website. Apparently he was misled by the customer who traded them in. Kegger, didn't you buy speakers recently, a JM Focal Labs? I thought you posted a picture. Which ones did you get and how are they? |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2113 Registered: Dec-03 | 2C: YES THEY ARE Jmlab 806s cobalt. There are pics on the discoveries thread about 3/4 down from the top! Oh I like them quite a bit, just I have so many speakers, at the moment I'm not using them. They are also goergous looking speakers! jm labs/focal make some great drivers and the cabinet also xover on these are very well made! |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2114 Registered: Dec-03 | But like any monitor in my oppinion need a sub. They get pretty good bass but! |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 446 Registered: Oct-04 | Two Cents - hey! You might think of buying Kegger's speakers - I did some research on them, and read/saw them on Discoveries. They "sound" (in print, anyway) like they'd be an excellent investment. And they are some of the most gorgeous speakers I've seen. . . I know what you mean about speakers sounding lousy. Sigh. Just when I was about to give up and go to a "theatre in a box" along came Ghia and her NAD - which improved the sound of the Polks about 3,000 per cent. But still. . . well, you know what I mean. Sigh. Right now I'm tapped out - but hope to look for some other speakers, maybe by Fall? Who knows. . Hope you get someting settled - life without good sound is not a good life! You can quote me! (grin) More anon. . . |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2743 Registered: Dec-03 | All above, Thanks for good wishes. The fat lady has sung. My 5.1 system is still back in the old house, and we are in a really fine small apartment with stereo and two KEF speakers on up-turned waste paper bins as stands. I tried to get the real speaker stands in my baggage, last night, for the return flight after returning the car, but the stands were too big. I did not dismantle them because of all the cat litter inside. Anyway, the stands are a little short, and I don't care for bean bags. I will have to put audio and this forum on a lower flame for some time, but will keep it simmering. All the best. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2115 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey john Im sure you've told us but why do you move all the time? I feel for yu and would hate to move my stuff around and be without my system! Good luck and glad to hear from yu! |
|
Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 417 Registered: Mar-04 | Kegger, I think John moves all the time because he's trying to stay one step ahead of Sony's hitmen, Lu-ee Gi and Gwe Do. After all the negative things he's written here its starting to effect their sales. Sony's upper management - the head of the "family" if you will, has given them orders to break John's knee-caps. So far, he's managed to elude them...but for how long??? |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Why would anyone turn their equipment off? |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 2116 Registered: Dec-03 | Mainly for me I don't like to leave my stuff on when I'm not home. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | That's what surge protectors and confidence are for. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 447 Registered: Oct-04 | Two Cents: Went on AudiogoN tonight, and there, just posted, was a pair of B&W 705 speakers in gorgeous "rosenut." The guy wants $975 hard, no bargaining - but he'll ship free from New England. Got my pulse racing, fer shore - but $975 just escapes me! Sigh. Great speakers - great looks and sound - but I think you've got larger speakers in mind? Anybody else on the forum - the price is about $150 higher than what B&W generalizes as its used price for the 705s - FYI. Happily ensconced with Berlioz "Requiem" this evening - my, how the music takes me away! Sigh. Happy listening, ev-body! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2744 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Sem. I think Sony is an extreme case for Old Dogs. The Sony stereo power amp I now use is good. Sometime in the 1990s Sony left the path of sound quality, it seems to me. Kegger, I have a new job, and am back in the real world after 15 years of being frozen out. Have a temporary apartment. Will move again in 2005 but it will not be far: we all like area we are living in. Then I 'll get my complete system back, and probably even "upgrade" to valves etc. BTW in place of a stereo pre-amp (mine is still plugged in in the old place) I bought a simple and cheap RCA switch box, which works fine as an input selector. It feeds three RCA stereo plus one mini-jack stereo into the single stereo input on the power amp, which has gain (volume) control. That is good enough for the time being. Also get terrestrial TV with a SCART cable with RCA plugs to one of the switch box inputs. Even that sounds good. I am also using my 1970s Armstrong FM tuner. Wonderful. Before, I had to get my favourite radio channel streamed on the internet, and the sound was rubbish. Now I have stereo FM again, as nature intended. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1249 Registered: Aug-04 | John A, I'm pleased you've found a nice place in which to re-settle. I do hope it's not somewhere called Gander Down, Thistle Bottom or even Knob End, although I hear they're okay if you like the occassional spotted c0ck followed by a nutty stilton crumpet or two. You sure you really want to live in this funny place again? [grin] Anyhow, I'm sure you and Mrs A will find a new lease on life now that you're finally back home - although with only stereo music for now that lease might be on hold until you get the surround system home and buy a SACD player. [grinning again] And remeber John, frequency modulations can be harmful if used excessively :-) |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 450 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - I'd heard that it was Spotted dIck, not Spotted c-Ock - but maybe, as un Amerukan, I don't know! Probably so. . . (double grin) |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 451 Registered: Oct-04 | To all: Larnin' sumpin' ev-day. Witness the below link. - - - - - - What's the origin of "spotted dick"? 27-Aug-2002 Dear Straight Dope: Can you shed any light on the etymology of "Spotted Dick"? It's a British concoction, a steamed, log-shaped suet pudding studded with currants, hence the "spotted." But why the "dick"? SD Staff Dex replies: The earliest recipes for spotted dick are from 1847. For non-British readers, "spotted dick" is a boiled suet pudding, with bits of dried fruit (usually raisins or currants) that (as already noted) look like little spots. The Oxford Companion to Food comments that, strictly speaking, "spotted dick" is made by taking a flat sheet, spreading sugar and raisins on it, then rolling it up. A similar dessert is "spotted dog," a plain cylinder of suet paste with the raisins and currants and sugar stuck into it, so that the spots are visible on the outside. Both spotted dick and spotted dog were traditionally boiled (or even steamed) in a cloth, but nowadays they are usually baked. The dessert is slightly different in Ireland. In Ireland in the late 1800s, the tradition of yeast-bread manufacture was not strong, so most breads were raised with bicarbonate of soda and an acid, rather than with yeast, and thus called soda breads. Thus, the spotted dick in Ireland is sweet soda bread, with sugar, currants, and raisins, and it's also called the spotted dog or railway cake. - - - - - Well, there you have it. Never ate it here in the Colonies - and not sure I want to! LR |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1252 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry, Uh Oh! The old Freudian Slip strikes again - a darn embarrassing cockup that was! My appologies. :-) Thanks for the research. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 452 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - (grin) didn't mean to embarrass you, sir, just tried to figger out if what you were talking about and what I'd heard of were the same thing. Guess they are? Hmmm. . . sounds like it might taste better than it sounds? (grin) Anybody out there heard of Boston Acoustics speakers? Had one "brung over" to my house this aft - a guy bought some "left-overs" from a local store, and wondered how they'd sound before he re-finished the cabinets - which were in near-terminal condition, so scarred-up. well, we plugged them in and I was blown away! Great, natural, detailed sound, and all the instruments in the Mozart concerto just plain "sang." He said they were "VR-M60" speakers from a place that no longer sells them. He got the pair for $150, and will now re-finish them in his wood-working shop. Hmmm . . . may have to look out for some of those myself! They were THAT GOOD! More anon. . . |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1256 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry, I auditioned a pair of Boston Acoustics (the only ones in the shop) when I bought my JBL XTi's. I don't know model but the RRP was $600 cheaper than the JBL's and I was also quite taken with their sound. They were the final two qualifiers in the blind test I used to determine my purchase. The extra power handling of the JBL's made up my mind. |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 454 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - thanx - this speaker quest is turning out to be more of a chore than I thought! And I wasn't even going to get new ones for a year or more. Still might have to wait that long, anyway! Suffering from the old Hawaiian disease: "Lackamoola." As in, "hey, Mer, did you take the change out of these pants?" (grin) Yeah, I auditioned some large bookshelf JBLs in our house before I got the Polks - don't know the model, but they sounded to "bright and up-front" for classical music - very good for pop/rock. They had what I might call the "California sound" to them - too hard-edged for this old softie!!! Onward! - or something. . . |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1257 Registered: Aug-04 | Larry - the quest for "right" speaker is no easy task. The JBl's I have are not available in the US. They are Danish made with French drivers and are made more to suit that "British" sound - or that's what I was led to believe. In fact they do match my B&W LCR6 S2 center very well and I am very happy with them. Although the looks, sound and finish of the JBL's are excellent, I was in the audio shop the other day and saw many exotic speakers, but the ones that made me almost salivate instantly on looks and finish alone were a pair 7 series B&W floorstanders - the price stopped the drool fairly quickly though. The thing is Larry, you now have a darn good reciever, the Polks you can relegate to the rear line while you NEED something better for the front line. It comes through in your posts - you will not be a happy camper until you get the speakers that "DO IT" for you. Now tell Mer to get into that studio and paint that masterpiece :-) |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Boston Acoustics was founded by Andy Petite who had worked with Henry Kloss at the original Advent corporation when Boston area speakers, and Advent in particular, ruled the American speaker market. They epitomized "East Coast" sound. It was during Andy's time with Advent that Thomlinson Holman (THX) came to work for Advent on the Advent receiver, the Advent digital bucket brigade time delay surround system and a few projects which never made it to market after Kloss, Petite and Holman all left to pursue other interests. I still own two pair of Boston Acoustic speakers, the A200's and the A40's. The A200 was the very first speaker B.A. made after Petite left Advent and it had several of the concepts of the Advent as its start point. The Boston area speaker companies were an incestu0us lot at the time and B.A. had Acoustic Research build and charge the magnets for the first few runs of speakers with the Boston Acoustics label. An acoustic suspension design allowed the A200 to have usable bass response down to the low 30 Hz range, 89dB sensitivity and a very straight forward 6-8 Ohm impedance. The speaker is very broad and shallow, the exact opposite of what is popular today. The broad, shallow cabinet allows the speaker to be placed tight against a wall and act as if it were an infinite baffle which then uses the entire wall surface as the baffle for the speaker. The width of the baffle adds a few dB to the level of the tweeter and meant the X-over didn't have to be as complex. With a woofer placed low in the cabinet, as with the Allison speakers (another Boston area speaker company), the bass benefits from the reinforcement of the floor's surface. The arrangement of the cabinet separates the woofer from the 4" midrange and the tweeter creating, in effect, a small satelite speaker with a subwoofer all in one cabinet. It was the first speaker I had ever heard capable of a soundstage that gave the impression you could literally walk around the various performers. Several good ideas were incorporated into the B.A. line at that time. They were very much the American equivalent of the KEF speakers in the sense the entire line was indistinguishable from each other save for the bass response and volume capacity. B.A. began designing their largest and best speaker first and then all the following speakers had to sound as much alike as physically possible. I replaced the A200's original Vifa soft dome tweeter with a Dynaudio D28 soft dome silk tweeter a few years back and they were my H.T. speakers for years until I moved the system and they didn't fit the new layout. They now reside in my front closet awaiting a new use. The A40's are still used as the surrounds for the H.T. The A200's with a light oak wood finish were purchased on a salesperson's accommodation at $380 for the pair in 1979. That was rather outrageous at the time as the Original Advent Loudspeaker which Petite had worked on with Kloss was sold until 1977 for $119 retail in a real walnut finish. Petite has long ago left B.A., changed his name to represent his Jewish (?) heritage and, as far as I know, isn't involved in audio any longer. I believe B.A. is now owned by a large coglomerate and has branched out into several areas of sound reproduction. They build a small table radio that competes with the Tivoli unit which was Kloss's last project. They are one of the best car audio speakers and they build several lines of HT speakers. They do build all of their own drivers, and possibly still build their cabinets, in house unless something has changed recently. Their products have remained good values being competitive with the Polks, Paradigms and Infinity's to name a few. In general there are better speakers available but they will cost a good bit more than the B.A.'s in most cases. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | With that bit of history tucked in your back pocket, you should easily convice Mer you cannot be depraved - woops, sorry - deprived any longer. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2746 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Thank you so much. I think we'll be able to cope with the language. It has actually changed even while we've been away. Some more "US" words are now in everyday use. Also some home-made ones, such as "spin doctor". Living languages evolve. The people who try to protect the "purity" of a language usually want to protect other sorts of "purity" and turn out to be far, far to the right, never having learned anything from the 20th century, and making even Rick seem like a leftie. I learned the connection in Scandinavia. Nice place to visit. Rotten place to live, if you and your ancestors from between about 100 and 1000 years were not born there. They have a small window of what counts as "Coming from" there. Too long ago, like the Laps (Sami) and you are frozen out, with your culture and language. Too recent, like us, ditto. It's nationalism again, and friends here may remember this is a raw nerve for me. Not so where I now live. I walk down the high street and see all races, all cultures, hear many languages, and feel at home. As far as spotted dick, it is delicious, especially with custard. I have feeling the it was named after someone called "Richard". I'll look it up. US and UK English began to diverge in the 17th C I think. No question that many words which Brits now think of as US, like "trash", were used in England too, at that time, but died out here but not there. It is said that if you want to hear the English of the time of Shakespeare you have to go to small places in the Appalachians. Emigrants hang one to their langauage and culture more tenaciously than the folks who stayed at home. One UK perspective on US English is that it replaces potentially embarrassing words with less precise euphemisms. Then the euphemisms become embarrassing, and get replaced. You end up with nonsensical terms like "rest room". I once read someone say their dog was difficult to train and still used the rest room all over the house. This "prurience" theory fits with the idea that US English was started by puritans, partly, who blushed at the mention of a word denoting, for example, a male fowl. Actually, any bird. I'll try it on the ecoustics thought police - c_ck*. I recently had nice e-mail from a Chinese friend, back in Beijing, who wished me the best for the new "Year of the Rooster". I had to explain why that was so ridiculous to UK ears. You don't have a fighting rooster - he is busy roosting. You don't keep you ears roostered, or rooster the hammer of a gun. But they all fit well if you translate back. Sorry if this is off topic. I'll be back on the subject of stereo vs.surround sound for music - which IS the topic - eventually. MR, we should direct Larry to the "Hawaiian religeon" thread (I am out of modem time) which practices "Nomolotsanookie"? I think it was where we first shook hands, as it were. All the best. *The following words are not allowed on this discussion board: c_ck Please revise your post to remove the words indicated above. See, the puritans are still at work! And from the same land that infiltrates real obscenity into my home as entertainment suitable for children. Try "The Ladykillers" for example. What is it with you guys?! (Sigh). |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2747 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry to interrupt, Jan. That was good stuff and I'll re-read it. I wrote my last post in reponse to the last e-mail notification I received. But, on this rapid-fire thread, pause and you've lost it. Well, I suppose someone has to keep the conversation going. Rick; rumours of the demise of this thread are greatly exaggerated. |
|
Gold Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 1258 Registered: Aug-04 | John A As far as the censorship on this forum goes - I understand. I run a community website with a forum of sorts and I have to enter as many indecent words as I can think of into the database so they can not be used in a context that will offend some in our community or elswhere. Although not all words in themselves are offensive - when used with others can be. So I do understand what the administrator has to do to keep things on a reasonably decent keel here. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 751 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, Was it something I said? (LOL) Very happy to have you back you old hound dog............ The question is in reference to the above post to John. John, Very glad you had a safe move. Good to have you back my friend. I never had any worries about "Old Dogs", with time we all come "home". I have some catching up to do myself. I have been very busy at work the past few weeks, and have not had time to post, just look in now and again. Cheers to all! PS Oh Miss Cabriolet, time to wander back. I have seen several pairs of Spendor's sold on Audiogon in the past few weeks. You don't happen to be in possession of a pair, do you? |
|
Silver Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 456 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan V. - well, now - thanks for the BA history. I mean it. Copied it down for future reference. Yeah, when the guy came into my house carrying the dog-eared BA in his hands, well, I expected to hear trash. Not so! The sound was some of the cleanest I've heard anywhere - I thought well-matching the B&W 705s. Finally went onto the Boston Acoustics site, and found that the speakers I "might" lust after cost $1,000 a pair. Guess that's not a bad price these days, but I come up about $952 short - sooo. There are three Polk LSi9s - cherry - on eBay right now - in bidding wars all. Don't know if anybody on this forum has heard them - but they are significantly better than the RTi6s I have. Still, they are Polks, and I wonder how I'd feel about them long-term? My Rantz: Hmmm - didn't know there were different "kinds" of JBLs - I learn something new ev-day! As to your "encounter" with the B&Ws -Still dreaming about those B&W 705s - and probably will dream a long time! (grin)Yep, the floorstanders (704 I think?) ARE beautiful, and sound absolutely great - much better "bottom end" than their smaller sisters, the 705s. But Mer says "No big speakers - especially black ones" so I catch her drift and head toward small, cherry, nice shape, fine sound - in that order. WAF is important, as y'all know. Rick: as you well imagine, Ghia and I have been in constant contact as we deal with the NAD - and she told me Monday that she's selling her Monitor Audio speakers - probably on audiogoN - for about $900. Anybody interested? She says she saw the Spendors advertised, but now has her sights on some larger speakers. I doubt that she'll be coming back to the forum soon - she's super-busy re-modeling her house, and her job is taking a turn to the long-hours concept, meaning less "free time" for her and her five beloved kitties. More anon. . . |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics