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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 673 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, I thought I would move the tube discussions off "Old Dogs", so the ones with no interest in tubes would not be distracted. My biggest concern with an SET, is I feel I will be limiting my speaker choices because of power. I'm leaning to an integrated push-pull for the additional power. I would like to hear my S3/5's and perhaps Maggies with tubes. Any thoughts? Jan-Kegger |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1930 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick I agree with you! That is the same delema I'm pondering. I have some very effecient speakers that would work on an set of say 7 watts or so but I don't really want to limit myself to only those speakers. If I get a really nice amp I'd like to use more of the speakers I own and leave my choices more open. But having said that I think I may try one anyways because of the tubes I allready own! But I do understand where your coming from. I think jan feels different in the fact he feels the amp would be more flexable and you don't "need" the watts. I probably agree you don't "need" the watts to drive the lesser effeicent speakers but feel a more powerful amp would drive them better. That's just my opinion! How many watts are you contemplating and what db rating are the speakers you want to drive? As I've been told maggies can be difficult to drive! But if we could get others to chime in on what they've done maybe it would help. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1931 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank may be a good candidate also as he seems pretty upto date on the goings on with todays equipment! Frank any thoughts? Or anyone else with tube experience? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 675 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, My Spendors are 86db 8 ohm. The Maggies are about the same only 4 ohm load. Are you telling me you can drive either of these with a 4-7 watt SET? I find that hard to believe. If I go with a push-pull I would probably be looking at something 30-50 watts. What do you think? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1932 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick I agree with you! But so many have tried to say "it's the first watt that counts" And "most people on a dily basis use on averge less then 10 watts" I agree with you and find that hard to believe! But I can also see you getting good sound out of a 7 watt amp with 86db speakers, but I wonder how well it really will perform compared to say 50 watts! I believe the 50 would produce better results as long as the amp is still a really nice amp! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1933 Registered: Dec-03 | Every pair of speakers I have are at least 90db. And I have about 11 pairs of speakers! Some are 100db or higher! so an set of say 7 watts I could utilize fairly well on about half of my speakers. So I'm probably going to go that route! But I'm still gathering info. As to what I really want. Not to mention I now have 7 tube amps all from say 30 watts to 60 a channel. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 676 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, What is it with the cult like appeal with SET amps? What is the difference in sound between a SET and push-pull tube amp? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1934 Registered: Dec-03 | This is a clip from someone owning the golden tube audio se-40's that I own! "Tonight, I thought I would listen to our Golden Tube SE40 (first model) 40x40 single ended triode since I pretty much abandoned it after completion of the Zen amp project. After about 10 minutes I remembered all the reasons I abandoned it, and reminisced about how good it used to sound, and how well it compared with high dollar amps. To read reviews on it alone is a paradox about underdogs wining the fidelity wars. The sound of the SE40 didn't change, it sounds just the same as always, but now after listening to this inferior looking Zen amp 2x2 watts single ended triode my reference has changed. The Golden Tube SE40 now seems cold, thin, grainy, unfocussed, and this is what really surprises me,.. slow! It shouldn't be possible for a 5 watt 500 dollar amp to walk all over an 80 watt 1000 dollar amp that walks all over several popular 2500 dollar amps, but it does. That's Zen." Cold, thin, grainy that is what I feel going from ultralinier to triode! Then you read people say from triode to these ultra low power "flea amps" it goes one better. Which is what I thought from solid state to tube in the first place. Now the only triodes I have experience with are my se-40's and the rogue audio 88 that I can switch to triode. To me they sound better in triode "creamy , clear , focused" then the non triode amps I've been listening to. And the little set's are suppose to have even better control on that. The st-70's I have sound really good in the mid, with the modded ones sounding good in the high end also, but they don't have the contol or are as clear as the se-40 or the rogue. I have not listened to any of the little guy's to tell you what to think. I can only go by the passion I read people have for these amps. So I'm intrigued to find out! It would seem from what I read they do what the other triodes do but better! Don't know if that is any help rick but that is where I'm at right now! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 677 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Thank you my friend. It looks like we're in the same boat, so let's keep rowing.............LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1935 Registered: Dec-03 | Sounds good rick let's see what happens sounds like the thing to do. maybe will get some folks with some ideas in here. And I'm sure jan has something to contribute! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 678 Registered: Dec-03 | Bring it on folks..........we are all ears! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | There's some typing to do for this post and you guys know when I get to typing it's hard to stop. I've got to get some errands run right now; but, I had three cups of espresso this afternoon so I'm probably set for being awake for awhile. I'll try to get back to you both later tonight. Until then I need to get some of your ideas before I go off in some unknown territory that doesn't benefit any of us. How much money are we talking about for the purchase? I assume Rick has no interest in DIY or modding an older amp while Kegger would prefer that route. How many inputs and flexiblity are you needing? Can a simple one input w/ volume control work? Rick, have you thought about any specific speakers other than the Spendors and the Maggies? Kegger, with 11 pair of speakers to choose from what do you mean when you say more flexibility? A few quick words to get you thinking about some things I'll discuss more when I have time. One of the largest power drags in most speakers is the X-over. A typical woofer can be in the mid 90's as far as efficiency and many tweeters are still around 90 dB in their raw form. It's when you stick a few resistors, caps and particularly inductors that the power starts to get eaten up in heat instead of volume. Kegger, you may have more to contribute to this discussion. If you start to look at speakers with very simple (or no X-over) your power is going to making music instead of heating a coil. You are also staying with the important concept of SET in that you are putting the least amount of components between the input and the speaker's voice coil. That should, when done properly, translate into more power for dynamics and less "fuzzines" to the music making the whole more important than any one part. So taking a speaker like the Spica Angelus where the system efficiency is not extremely high but the X-over is reasonably simple can mean a very easy load on the amp that can operate with much less power than a speaker like a Theil where the first order X-overs with the complex frequency compensation networks can eat up watts that the drivers then never see. The added dynamics of a simple circuit in the speaker and amp add up to not having to play the system at a higher average level. The average power output goes down and the dynamics go up. A win/win proposition. If I were looking at a smaller wattage amp and wanted Maggies I would be looking at the small set that Magnaplanar is selling direct from the factory. I think they're the MGC (?) and they sell for around $550 a pair. And have you ever been around Maggies for any length of time? As great as they are they don't sell to the average Joe because of some specific things they do and don't do. Are you aware of their limitations as well as their strengths? I'm all for the Maggies but they are not for everyone. I'll type more about that when I have time. Rick, have you talked to Mapleshade yet? Any other quetsions you have list them for me and I'll try to answer as much as I can at one time. If you can tell me one more thing. It somewhat goes with the discussion we've had on Old Dogs. Think about the best sound you've heard and see if you can tell me what it was about that sound that made it so good and possibly different to you. From there I think we can talk about what's the deal with SET's. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I like the title you chose, Rick. Kind of like "Car Talk" without the call in questions. Instead of Click and Clack, are you two guys going to be Plate and Cathode? Went a long way for that one, didn't I? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1937 Registered: Dec-03 | "How much money are we talking about for the purchase? I assume Rick has no interest in DIY or modding an older amp while Kegger would prefer that route. How many inputs and flexiblity are you needing? Can a simple one input w/ volume control work? Rick, have you thought about any specific speakers other than the Spendors and the Maggies? Kegger, with 11 pair of speakers to choose from what do you mean when you say more flexibility? " If I could get by for $500 or less would be great. Generally like to mod someone elses creation. But if there was a complete kit where I didn't have to research parts on my own that would be good too. I'm looking at either 1 (2) channel amp or 2 mono blocks would be cool. Just basic amps, rca in's and speaker outs. Well like I mentioned Jan my speakers are fairly sensitive but I don't want some 2 watt amp that can only drive a couple pairs of my speakers. I'd like to drive a few different sets so I can pick and choose. (maybe around 8-10 watts) ___________________________________________________ Ok Jan I think I see where your going with the xover and I was thinking something simular earlier! Normally when I was designing a speaker for myself I needed power handling as to not burn up the drivers because of volume I would like to get from time to time. so I would incorporate at least a second order xover, As to keep the unwanted frequencies from entering the drivers with a good amount of power accosiated with them so I wanted at least a 12db filter. Now knowing that I'm only having say 10 watts to deal with, I don't need to protect the drivers as much so a 6db xover should be fine. And less parts in the signal path the better! YES SIR! __________________________________________________ Now the part I'm wondering about is if your saying a set of speakers of 86db with say a xover of 4th order, and a set of speakers of 86db with say a xover of 1st order. If I put 1 watt of power through them your saying the ones with the 1st order xover will have more volume? I'm not disputing this I'm asking! Or are you saying take those 86db speakers with the 4th order xover and redo that xover with a 1st order and you'll end up with more sensitivity because the drivers themselves are higher effiency but the xover was holding them back.(That I know is correct) ____________________________________________________ "If you can tell me one more thing. It somewhat goes with the discussion we've had on Old Dogs. Think about the best sound you've heard and see if you can tell me what it was about that sound that made it so good and possibly different to you. From there I think we can talk about what's the deal with SET's." Don't know if this what your after. But one of my favorite things to listen to is stewart copelands (police) drum kit, from the exceptional cymbal use to the sound of the rest of his kit The drums just pop and sound so life like, that on a good sounding pair of speakers with a good amp sounds like he's right there playing them in the room not recorded but right there in the room. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1938 Registered: Dec-03 | "I like the title you chose, Rick. Kind of like "Car Talk" without the call in questions. Instead of Click and Clack, are you two guys going to be Plate and Cathode? " Jan that was bad! lol |
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J/ Vigne Unregistered guest | " ... a set of speakers of 86db with say a xover of 4th order, and a set of speakers of 86db with say a xover of 1st order. If I put 1 watt of power through them your saying the ones with the 1st order xover will have more volume?" Not exactly. One of the things that has to happen with small wattage amps like an SET is a total rethinking of everything you've thought about hifi until this point. Somewhat like when you first heard tubes or PIO caps there is a level of musicality that is not what Best Buy wants to sell you. When you're dealing with miniscule watts you don't think so much in terms of "volume" as you are now used to the idea. "Volume" gets replaced by a sense of life in the music. If you and I are on the same page with tubes, one of the things that happens with tubes vs. solid state is the tubes open up the music and add a sense of life to the sound that transcends the measurements. 40 watts of tubes don't sound like 40 watts of solid state. And not just in terms of "volume". You hear "deeper" into the recording and find yourself listening in an almost entirely new manner. The idea of "BASS" is replaced by the sound of bass. The concept of clarity is replaced by hearing more music. The sense of impact is replaced by dynamics. The idea that you are listening to the music is replaced by the music just being there. I think one thing that will be very different for anyone listening to SET's is an initial idea of listening beyond the recording. If you've been following the idea I've mentioned a few times on Old Dogs about listening to old recordings from the twenty's and thirty's and hearing what is good about them despite the obvious flaws in the recording chain of the time, then you can get an idea of what is likely to be your experience the first time you hear music through an SET. If you're going to pick apart the sound on a purely hifi basis, then an SET may not do exactly what you want in your system. I'm not implying how you listen is wrong or needs to change; but, listening to an SET is more about listening to the music and less about listening to your hifi. The details of the recording can be replaced by the sense of musicality. The impact of SET's comes from the way in which they present the music. In a good SET it is almost as if the music is nak*d. Stripped down to bare essentials that say "music"! It's fast (that word may not mean exactly what I want right there) and easy to listen to, smooth if you can hear beyond the limitations of the small wattage. The idea of cleaning a window is pretty overused and I think there's a better way to have it make sense. Try this; since you got the tubes you've been listening, in a way, to the parts of your amps. You've heard the new caps and resistors and how they change the music. Now, when you listen to an SET, you are going to take all that away. Because you are listening to a simple circuit you are going to find the parts make more difference than ever. But if you focus on the parts, you will miss the show. If you entranced by the gal in tights, you'll miss the music behind her. Kind of like making a good Marinara sauce, you can't get the best tatse unless you use the absolute best ingredients. When everything depends on four or five ingredients, there's no room for anything but the best if you want the feshness and the life of the sauce to come through. An SET is the same idea. Strip it down to the very minimum and the ingredients either meld into something that is greater than the sum of the parts or they don't. It's a sense of putting a fork full of perfect pasta, with just the absolute correct amount of sauce, with just a dusting of Parmigiano Reggiano over the top, in your mouth. It's the look, the smell, the taste, the textur and the sense that this is as good as it gets is the most important thing in the world right at that instant. It's the impact of right now. It is the stuff that makes you want more. It is the perfect realization of pasta and Marinara sauce. Then like a drink of Chianti Classico, the trumpet player hits a soft, muted note, and that sets the stage for the next bite. If on the other hand you think buffet at Pizza Inn is pretty good, then ... Does that make sense? Does that begin to answer the question? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 679 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Welcome to "Tube Talk". I'm glad you like the title. Thanks in advance for your participation. Why do I get the feeling you and Kegger are going to be the patron saints? LOL! No I'm not a DIY guy, so for the sake of this tube experiment, let's put a ceiling of $1000 for an integrated amp. I will only be using a CD player for source. I had a pair of Maggie 1.6's so I do know the pro and cons of the beast. With tubes I would go with the MMG's as you mentioned with a small sub to fill out the bottom. I know exactly what you mean by listening deeper into the music, and not listening to the system or components. It wasn't until I got the Mac that I got my first taste of that. As you know I have owned and heard a lot of high-end gear, but nothing, until now, presented music and got out of the way, like the Mac. If there is a next level, I want to hear it. Also, if you have any other speaker suggestions other than the Spendors or Maggies, let me know. No I haven't called Mapleshade. I would only be interested in the integrated amps not the receiver. But they are not SET's, am I correct in that assumption? |
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New member Username: RaymondPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-04 | So I'm not the only guy in MI looking for some high efficiency speakers for my SET (13 watt EAR 859)...Where can you audition anything that will work taht you don't have to build...like Coincident, Living Voice, Silverline, PCM etc |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1940 Registered: Dec-03 | Raymond Plummer : good to hear another michigander! where abouts you at? I'm in warren. And I haven't gotten into the magic little amps yet. So I have'nt been looking for the right speakers yet. But I agree I don't remember much out there besides klipsch. If were close enough to one another maybe we should comunicate from email and discuss what's up in michigan. JUst click on my name to the left and send me an email. ______________________________________________________ If you've got something to contribute to our discussion , throw it out there. Any and all are welcome. I'm into tubes and building speakers but have'nt gotten into the little guys yet! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1941 Registered: Dec-03 | JAN: "Not exactly. One of the things that has to happen with small wattage amps like an SET is a total rethinking of everything you've thought about hifi until this point. Somewhat like when you first heard tubes or PIO caps there is a level of musicality that is not what Best Buy wants to sell you." I can relate to that as I had to when I went tubes in the first place. "When you're dealing with miniscule watts you don't think so much in terms of "volume" as you are now used to the idea. "Volume" gets replaced by a sense of life in the music. If you and I are on the same page with tubes, one of the things that happens with tubes vs. solid state is the tubes open up the music and add a sense of life to the sound that transcends the measurements. 40 watts of tubes don't sound like 40 watts of solid state. And not just in terms of "volume". You hear "deeper" into the recording and find yourself listening in an almost entirely new manner. The idea of "BASS" is replaced by the sound of bass. The concept of clarity is replaced by hearing more music. The sense of impact is replaced by dynamics. The idea that you are listening to the music is replaced by the music just being there." The first part of that I can relate to as in tube watts seem to produce more music per watt then solid state. And the second part I like the way tubes suck you into the music and seem to have more feeling to them. But I still find myself listening to the intruements and the way tubes seem to excentuate what that instrument is all about with a greater clarity. " think one thing that will be very different for anyone listening to SET's is an initial idea of listening beyond the recording. If you've been following the idea I've mentioned a few times on Old Dogs about listening to old recordings from the twenty's and thirty's and hearing what is good about them despite the obvious flaws in the recording chain of the time, then you can get an idea of what is likely to be your experience the first time you hear music through an SET. If you're going to pick apart the sound on a purely hifi basis, then an SET may not do exactly what you want in your system. I'm not implying how you listen is wrong or needs to change; but, listening to an SET is more about listening to the music and less about listening to your hifi" Well I think I'm going to have to experience it for myself and see if there for me or weather I start listening differently because of what they have to offer. I've been able to appeciate tubes over solid state maybe now I need to take the next step "and see if I appreciate music over electronics" It's entirely possable that the little guys go away from what I love And enjoy about my tubes right now to the point I go back to my other amps. But I think I need to hear what all the fuss is about. Anyone have any thoughts on what Jan and I have just bantered about? Jan even? Rick what are your thoughts at this monent on what weve heard. (for yourself and me) It sounds like set's are right up your alley! And it's just a case of what amp with what speakers! Does that sound about right? Any thoughts on how I seem to like the instruments more than the music they play? My enjoyment seems to come from the sound of the instruement! Anyone else think like that? You can all give your honest opinion, I'm not fighting hear just wondering others thoughts. Rick you ever thought like that or has it allways been the way it is for you? Don't get me wrong I must appreciate music too, other wise I wouldn't love or hate certain songs. But the ones that seem to really get me going as something truly extrodinary are the ones where the intruments just sound so real! and you can hear every lick so vivid and clear that you imagine the instrument is right there! Anyways that's what I got! Anyone else care to share there music enjoyment? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Raymond - I afraid I can't help you with your question about where to listen. The speakers that are typically used with SET's don't suit the tastes of most other audio gear buyers. If the dealer is selling mostly NAD and Denon they have to stock speakers they can pair with those amps. Jeff Rowland and Mark Levinson get their speakers. The little guys get ignored or, at best, a pair gets shoved into a back room. The SET industry, if it can be called that, has sprung up out of the internet like other specialty markets that can reach a wide audience digitally. Unfortunately that isn't a great way to audition audio gear. But, it is the most common way available to most people. If you have a speaker you are interested in hearing, I would contact the manufacturer. Often they have arranged for auditions in the homes of current owners in your area. I'm sure your contributions concerning what you hear from your amp, what you replaced and what speakers you are currently using would be of interest to this discussion. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Let me start my part here with the idea, as Kegger implied, anything said here will be meant without any prejudice. No judgement passed on anyone or anything. If I say something you interpret as a slight, it will not have been intended that way. This is to impart some knowledge and share some opinions and experiences. No one should get their feelings hurt by anything that is put in this thread. Of course, that doesn't mean we can intentionally take a swipe at somebody. But let's not get our nose bumped while on this thread. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1943 Registered: Dec-03 | Sounds good jan! I'm just putting myself and my ideas out there for others to ponder. I'm still trying to figure where I'm headed but feal the only way to get where I'm going is to be honest. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | A few things to consider when reading about SE amps. It will be important to remember these items as we discuss SE and low power amps. Please remember these items when you read ads and write ups for products. There is a lot of BS out there. A triode tube is the simplest amplification device in existence. A triode can be employed in either a single ended amp or a push-pull design. A pentode can be used in a SE design. It just wastes the idea of a pentode and goes against the tenets of Se operation. So it isn't usually done. A pentode is a triode with two extra components inside the tube for higher gain and power and less noise in the circuit. A pentode, or a beam power tube, can be run as a triode at reduced power from the circuit. A triode can be either a small signal tube like the 12AX7 found in pre amp and driver stages; or, it can be a power output tube such as a 300B. Many triodes have two part construction. There are two identical halves inside the tube and they can be run together, or separately or one half can be ignored. Tubes, whether triode or pentode, can be run in parallel for more power and lower output impedance. Simple circuits such as SE will have an inherently high output impedance compared to a push-pull design. Tube amplifiers typically have a higher output impedance than a solid state amplifier. A higher output impedance means the amplifier will be more adversely affected by the load it sees on its outputs by the speaker. Frequency response and damping factor will be afffected. I am unaware of a pre amp that you're likely to listen to that isn't a Class A design and run, essentially, as a single ended gain stage. Since SE amps have no crossover point where the signal is passed to another tube or tube section, I know of no SE amp that isn't a Class A design by nature. Class A is, of course, inherently inefficient in terms of power vs. energy production. This normally means a Class A amp will run very hot and produce minimal amounts of power vs. a Class AB amp run in push-pull. Whether an amplifier is SE or push-pull isn't the point. In an amplifier, the design is everything. In an amplifier, the parts selection is everything. In an amplifer, the construction is everything. In life, none of this matters. In reality, the music is all that matters. Those are where I'll start. I may think of others as we go along but that will do for now. Anybody can add anything they care to on to the list. anybody can question any of the above. Now that I've told you to remember these things, you can forget them all except the final one. When dealing with SE and small wattage amps it's the only thing you should consider important. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | A few things to consider when reading about SE amps. It will be important to remember these items as we discuss SE and low power amps. Please remember these items when you read ads and write ups for products. There is a lot of BS out there. A triode tube is the simplest amplification device in existence. A triode can be employed in either a single ended amp or a push-pull design. A pentode can be used in a SE design. It just wastes the idea of a pentode and goes against the tenets of Se operation. So it isn't usually done. A pentode is a triode with two extra components inside the tube for higher gain and power and less noise in the circuit. A pentode, or a beam power tube, can be run as a triode at reduced power from the circuit. A triode can be either a small signal tube like the 12AX7 found in pre amp and driver stages; or, it can be a power output tube such as a 300B. Many triodes have two part construction. There are two identical halves inside the tube and they can be run together, or separately or one half can be ignored. Tubes, whether triode or pentode, can be run in parallel for more power and lower output impedance. Simple circuits such as SE will have an inherently high output impedance compared to a push-pull design. Tube amplifiers typically have a higher output impedance than a solid state amplifier. A higher output impedance means the amplifier will be more adversely affected by the load it sees on its outputs by the speaker. Frequency response and damping factor will be afffected. I am unaware of a pre amp that you're likely to listen to that isn't a Class A design and run, essentially, as a single ended gain stage. Since SE amps have no crossover point where the signal is passed to another tube or tube section, I know of no SE amp that isn't a Class A design by nature. Class A is, of course, inherently inefficient in terms of power vs. energy production. This normally means a Class A amp will run very hot and produce minimal amounts of power vs. a Class AB amp run in push-pull. Whether an amplifier is SE or push-pull isn't the point. In an amplifier, the design is everything. In an amplifier, the parts selection is everything. In an amplifer, the construction is everything. In life, none of this matters. In reality, the music is all that matters. Those are where I'll start. I may think of others as we go along but that will do for now. Anybody can add anything they care to on to the list. anybody can question any of the above. Now that I've told you to remember these things, you can forget them all except the final one. When dealing with SE and small wattage amps it's the only thing you should consider important. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Kegger - I'm not certain a SE amp will satisfy you. With your taste in music and preference for some volume, you represent the end of the spectrum that I don't see often discussing their love of SE amps. Not that there aren't rockers with SE amps, but, as I said, SE is about hearing things differently; so you may open up to some new types of music when your done. Maybe not, we'll wait and see. Raymond, if your still with us, why don't you fill us in on your system and the music you listen to. Kegger, your stated reasons for wanting to hear SE make you a good candidate to at least try SE. I know you'll learn some things if you decide SE is what you want to listen to as we go along. So I'm looking forward to learning some things from you if you decide SE is better that beer. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1944 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree completely jan with your last post! That is why I'm not sure what route I want to go. Maybe a 300b push pull? Maybe a different tube we have not discussed in either push pull or triode? I'm up for suggestions as to what might benifet from my taste in music! I'm going to do more resaerch on 300b push pull, sounds intrigueing! Any thoughts? But I agree a flea power set may not be for me. But I'd like to think theres a design out their that may lend it's hand in the way it's designed to what I prefer. If not owell I'll keep trying. I don't give up! Most of the time I do not listen with volume up there a lot but moderitely on the louder side with the every now and then that music makes me! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1945 Registered: Dec-03 | What about you jan? No fleas for you? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I would suggest you read this review that has been placed on the forum. It is about an amplifer designed by Nelson Pass. Pass, for those that don't know him, has been around audio for four decades or more. He is best known for his line of Threshold Class A amps from the 80's and 90's. He is a designer who is a manufacturer who is a tinkerer. He is very free with many of his designs and has designs he gives away on http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=www.passdiy.com. Pass has forgotten more about audio than most groups of people can remember. One of his many talents is the ability to make things understandable to the average reader. I think if you read this article you will have a little better idea where this discussion can go and the problems that SE and small amps face in the real world. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1204/firstwattf1.htm You may also want to glance at this site: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/audion.htm One point the second article makes that I would say is important is the approach to picking speakers for SE/SW (Small Wattage) amps. Many people who don't care for the sound of SE amps consider them to be expensive tone controls. A point you should have more understanding for if you've read the article on the Pass amplifier. One of the drawbacks to a SE amp is the speaker, not so much in terms of efficiency; but, in terms of how it interacts with the SE amp's output impedance. This suggests that a SE amp be purchased with a suitable speaker in mind. A SE amp and speaker are more dependent upon one another than any other combination of two items I can think of in audio. Without a suitable match in both directions a venture into a SE amp can be a disaster. As I indicated to Raymond, most speakers for SE amps are designed to go, almost exclusively, with SE amps. That means a speaker being high efficiency by itself means little other than you will get sufficient volume out of the combination. The SE listening experience is about more than just the volume. The direction many speakers designed for SE use are taking is away from horns and into full range drivers, usually from either Fostex or Lowther. These full range speakers need no X-over, so no power is wasted in the electronics of the speaker itself. When choosing a SE amp and a suitable speaker, you are really picking the sound of the combination to be to your choosing. I know the argument can be made that is the same aproach in a conventional system; but, SE makes the combined decision even more important. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1946 Registered: Dec-03 | Recommended Speakers for SE Amps http://www.welbornelabs.com/recomendspeaks.htm |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1947 Registered: Dec-03 | High Efficiency Speakers http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/HUG/bbs.html |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | What about you jan? No fleas for you? No, I'm quite happy with the McIntosh MC240 tube amps that I use. They strike a good balance for me of what is good about a musical approach to design no matter what the topology of the amp might be. Given the nature of a tube amp, they have many strengths and few weaknesses in my opinion. The flea watters have intrigued me but not enough to say I want something different than the Macs in my system. The value I place on having a product that will be supported and have value in the future rules out the DIY designs, and they are the SE amps that I personally find most interesting. We'll see what happens through this thread with you guys. Maybe I'll change my mind, but it hasn't been an issue for me so far. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=melhuish%20single%20driver |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Those are good places to start with research on speakers and they give some good info on SE amps also. A few things to mention here: A tube amp using transformers on the output of the tubes will not increase its power output when connected to a lower impedance, say 4 Ohm, load the same way a solid state amp will. You will be hooking the speakers to the appropriate tap on the output transformer and this will maintain the output impedance of the amp vs. the actual load. So a 15 watt transformer coupled tube amp will make about the same 15 watts no matter what speaker you put on the outputs assuming the match is correct between the tap and the speaker. Looking at a 4 Ohm speaker will not get you an extra 3 dB of volume with a SE amp. You can change the sound of your amp slightly by mismatching the tap to the load but then you will change power output and distortion. There are OTL, output transformerless, tube amps wher there aer no transformers on the output of the tubes to lower the impedance. Many tubes are run in parallel to lower the impedance and the sound is then the closest sound to the tubes themselves without the transformer getting in the way. Transformers are the heart and soul of a tube amp and making a good transformer is not hard. Making a great transformer is quite a feat of engineering and production. The best known OTL's are the Futterman amps. OTL's were the rage back in the late 80's to the early 90's. Like SET's they are a throwback to an earlier time in audio. They face many of the same impediments that SET's will find. Because of the number of output tubes needed to sufficiently lower the output impedance, OTL's are expensive to buy and maintain. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1948 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan it's interesting your mac's and my se-40's along with the rogue 88. your macs using the small signal tubes with the 6l6gc's my se-40's using the 6l6gc's with the 6sn7 signal tubes. The rogue uses 6550/kt88 power tubes but the small signal tubes! Three amps simular in design but the manufacturers chose differnt tube layouts. Right now I'm prefering the se-40's as a little better control. But the se-40's are modded so I don't know if things were done to the rogue if it would be up there with the golden tube audio's! Just food for thought. |
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HELP PLEASE MAN Unregistered guest | yo i got a ? i wana get one Alpine type X 12' that has a peak power of 3000 watts and a RMS of 1000 watts..what amp that is 500$ or less can i buy that will make the sub bump?!?! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1949 Registered: Dec-03 | You need to ask these questions in the car audio forum not home audio! No one here will know the answer to your question but someone in car audio might! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I think what it will come down to for many people is a push-pull amp is just an easier item to live with. SET is out of the mainstream and takes some effort to understand and live with. Some people like it for that fact alone. Nothing wrong with that. You can avoid having to go into a Best Buy as much as possible. Which you end up choosing is merely a personal matter. The rewards of either topology can be very interesting. Much more so than just another Pioneer receiver from Circuit City. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1950 Registered: Dec-03 | Yu know what haven't ever discused that I can remember is electronic crossover's! I'd realy like to experiment with them and do some triamping or biamping with no xovers in the speakers. just the amps conected directly to the drivers. something like this! http://www.arcdb.ws/EC3/EC3.html |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | " I can only go by the passion I read people have for these amps. So I'm intrigued to find out! It would seem from what I read they do what the other triodes do but better!" The passion people feel about these amps is real. The passion for the music is real. Whether they suit your needs within a system is a choice you have to make. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | That's an awful lot of caps there, Kegger. http://www.arcdb.ws/EC3/ARC_EC3_top.jpg Now you're headed off into a different direction. You might call Audio Research and ask them about their X-over. I would guess they wouldn't suggest it be used with a small wattage amp. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1952 Registered: Dec-03 | http://www.audiocraftersguild.com/Xtreme/xtreme.htm You guy's gotta check this out! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Time for bed, Kegger, the espresso has worn off. Tomorrow. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1953 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: "That's an awful lot of caps there, Kegger. Now you're headed off into a different direction. You might call Audio Research and ask them about their X-over. I would guess they wouldn't suggest it be used with a small wattage amp." But you use the xover before the amps so wouldn't that help to not have the the xover for the amp to go through? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1954 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes I'm hitten the hay soon also! see yu tomorrow! Good night. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | In case you didn't click on this link: http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/aroma.html |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | http://www.audioweb.com/Review/ReviewViewer.asp?reviewid=19655 |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1955 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: "How can I describe my surprise when, at the end of the tunnel, there was Peter Qvortrop dressed like The King of Single Ended Triodes , with a crown filled with directly heated triodes, an ermine cape and holding a staff. In a very matter of fact way he just looked me over, stuck his head out, sniffed me and nodded for me to pass, and pointing......that a way.... How can I describe fields filled with real Western Electric 300Bs, gently swaying in the wind like an Iowa corn field? Or the miles and miles of wild triode vines with their succulent fruits: pre 1940, 211s, 845s, mono plate 2A3, and those millions of bees buzzing over there by the blue KR 300Vs. No, they weren't bees; they are swarms of 1944 6SN7s. In complete awe I silently watched a gaggle of audiomaniac angels with their tiny wings fluttering, floating above these fertile fields of triodes plucking fresh tubes from their green sockets. Look at all of those pink adorable audio cherubs. Can you imagine the thrill of seeing Andy Singer, Gordon Holt, Joe Roberts, Herb Reichert, Dennis Had, Gordon Rankin, John Stronza, Mike Le Fevre, looking like chubby pink humming birds on steroids hovering over the fresh fields of triodes? Up ahead I could hear this amazing music so I quickly jogged down the path and came to a very large iron bridge that crossed over a very turbulent river that had carved itself deep into the earth. I could feel a beautiful magnetic energy coming from the bridge, in spite of the fact, that the rushing water below was very frightening. I got up the courage and started crossing the bridge when a very gnarled old man appeared at the end of the bridge, waving his hands and yelling out to me....."If you cross this Alnico bridge, you can never return". The old man looked like a one hundred year old Guy R. Fountain. I stopped and thought for a moment, but the tug of the music was soooo powerful that it pulled me closer to the old man, and then I looked down at the turbulent river beneath me and the old man yelled out again..."That river is from the run-off of the tears of men who weep over the beauty of Alnico and triodes". As I gained consciousness in my hospital I knew I had a near death experience, and had spent a few brief moments in Triode Heaven. I was given three important lessons: (1) Be very careful when listening to speakers with Alnico magnets if you are 55 or over. Be sure to keep oxygen, a medical alert device, and nurse close by. (2) Don't dance naked on your birthday, and maybe it isn't such a great idea to have too much excitement on one night. (3) Heaven is Alnico and triodes, and once you've gotten into that harmonic space, there is no going back." Now if that doesn't paint a picture of how passionette people are over their trodes I don't know what would! lol Good stuff jan! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Kegger - Here's your system: http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/ultimate.html |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | http://invalid.ed.unit.no/~dunker/saidhorn.html |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1956 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan I grew out of that type of system a while ago when I quit dj'ing! Use to have a system when you cranked er up that your pant legs would shake! "VIOLENTLY" But it wouyld be something to behold! Thought you were going to bed? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | "That's an awful lot of caps there, Kegger. Now you're headed off into a different direction. You might call Audio Research and ask them about their X-over. I would guess they wouldn't suggest it be used with a small wattage amp." Kegger - I probably misstated my case. When I said there were a lot of caps and they probably wouldn't suggest it's use with small amps I was thinking of the amps that Audio Research has been making. They are not producing anything under 60 watts, I don't believe, and have not espoused any attitude in favor of SET's. As far as the number of caps and heading in a different direction, my meaning was you are headed into a direction that is against the basic simplicity of SET circuits where less is more. The type of system you're beginning to approach with small wattage SE amps running through active X-overs to bi or tri amp a speaker is more reminiscent of the Japanese approach to audio in the 80's and 90's. If you run across any links to Japanese audio magazines, check out what the high end is doing over there. They are fans of horns in tri amp systems. Exotic tube amps, using NOS tubes that can't be found as new stock any longer, are the rage with the true cognoscenti. It is also, as the one link I provided indicates, the manner in which auidiophiles in the 40's and 50's went about their systems in the very early days of HiFi. Few manufacturers made a complete system of speakers so the person who wanted good sound went about buying and assembling the parts they felt would suit their needs. As the article suggests, there have always been "approved" model #'s that allowed someone to have the "correct" system. Try some links here: http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/directory/directory.htm |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | http://www.diy-systems.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1958 Registered: Dec-03 | Gotcha Jan I just thought it was another alternative we have not discussed. And I'm very interested because of the various amps and speakers I have. maybe I could come up with some combo that really worked well. Also I've heard many times over not having the passive parts on the speakers but going through an active xover is preferred. So just some more food for thought. But I have heard before what you said that the amp and speaker should be thought of as one unit, that they play off each other to create the bond and that directly conected to the drivers is the best way. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 682 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm still with you guys-sort of. I'm reading and learning as fast as I can. So now I'm told I should have held on to those Cornwalls I had a 100 years ago. LOL! Ok I have learned I can still get triode sound with a push-pull amp. I think that may be the way to go for me. It seems with a small watt SET, my speaker choices would just be too limited. Any thoughts/comments? What should I be looking at to say $1000? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Kegger - "directly conected to the drivers is the best way." I'm not sure "the best way" can be qualified as this or that way. I approach these things as a holistic system approach where everything that is within the system will affect the outcome. The Japanese love the tri amp approach for their "ultra" stereo systems. There are advantages to the approach, but I'm uncertain about cobbling together a system from what you have around. Not that it will not work and possibly sound better than the parts; but, personally I would start with a simple system and work from there. Find out if SET is what you're really after or maybe another approach is better suited to your individual desires. After you have established a benchline, then you can get more exotic if you wish. Don't throw the idea out but just store it in the back of the files for now. Rick - I'm not sure what you should consider yet. What have you been looking at and why? Are you able to hear it or is this a purchase that will be made over the internet? Based on reviews? Any particular considerations other than your cost to consider? I am certain that with small wattages the efficiency of the speaker is a major concern as we have discussed. And there still seems to be little recourse in getting an efficient speaker with decent bass response together, in that it will require a fairly good sized enclosure, or at least floor space, to get those two in one package. A subwoofer goes against what many people think of as the simple is best approach to this type of system. So tell me what you're thinking about speakers. Still the Maggies? If so what type of wattage (minimum) do you think you will need to get the sound you want? Have you kind of got an idea what tubes you are looking to run? As much as the circuit itself the tube coice will determine your sound and cost. Any ideas there? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 683 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I have done an about face, and am going to make this thing as easy as possible. I don't want to drive myself crazy. I have decided to go with the Omega 6 speakers. I can now be open to both low watt SET's or push pulls. I will probably do my buying via the internet. Reviews and input from you will be the deciding factors. The only reason I am limiting my investment at the moment is to see (or should I say hear) if tubes are for me. If I fall in total love, I can trade up. So with this new info, what tubes or amps should I be considering? ASL, Jolida, Ming Da ? I seek only the the sound of the music. |
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New member Username: RaymondPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-04 | Following your thread here...wanted to share why I have crossed over to SET and probably will not go back...like so many others. You guys are all suggesting it, or saying it one way or another...they give you the reality...the appearance of the musicians really being there...or you really being at a real rock concert..same for all types of music, makes no difference so long as you manage the volume realtive to what your perception of the real thing. In audio I'm finding less is better as someone said. In selecting my amp I tried numerous high end solid state, big muscle amps Krell, Threshold, push pull tube amps Audio Research, Macs, Conrad Johnson. The journey ended with the clarity, the unveiling of the music and the emotion in the voices that to my ears only came with my SET (EAR 859). My tastes and my live musical experinces are varied. I've listened to live Chamber, Symphony, Orchestral, as weel as live rock concerts. Iwas at the Who "Live at Leeds" in Roundhay Park as a teenager. Also listened on LP to Rick Wakeman, Mike Oldfield, P. Floyd. Tastes moved to female vocal such Ricki Lee Jones, Sarah McClaughlin(sp?). Also sang in the Choir competitively against other church choirs so I have a sense of what things sound like. My learnings...many live events don't sound as clear as what you can achieve at home..but they do have that something extra that I don't think anyone has yet really defined or measured. So how close can we get. That is the gauntlet that has been thrown down. Fo me SET amps play an important part in getting there. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1959 Registered: Dec-03 | Raymond Plummer : excelent post. Hope you have more to contribute! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1960 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick: YOU've seen this right? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/omega/grande6_4.html |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1961 Registered: Dec-03 | Raymond Plummer : What speakers are you running? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1962 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick this too! http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0500/jolida102b.htm |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 684 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, I have read both articles. I based my choice on the 6 moons review, and the review in Stereophile. The Omega company is about 30 minutes away from where I work in Connecticut. As far as the Jolida goes, how can you go wrong at the price? Raymond, Thanks for the input. It is appreciated. |
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New member Username: RaymondPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-04 | Read the article, thanks and also for all the info and links everyone on this string has contributed.... Still looking for the right speakers! So here's my system...started 20+ years ago.. Front end..most important of all in my opinion based on rubbish-in-rubbish-out theory. i.e. the information avialable from the source (cd/LP etc.) will only decline in quality so get the best info retrieval system at the front end...yes the Linn theory, it's true!! Turntable LP12 by Linn with Rega arm/Clearaudio Virtuosso Wood cartridge. CD Player: Prism II by McCormick. Speakers by Mordaunt Short...Pageant II. The Linn and the speakers are the old stuff. Still hanging on to the Linn playing more LPs than ever...still kills most cd players but have not compared to SACD/DVDA. The cartridge is new MM with a custom phono stage designed by Kevin Kennedy....that's a story for another time/string. So the quest continues for the right speakers. I've decided on towers for the appeal of the physical format and based on the assumption that even the best single driver bookshelfs won't match the base response I have now. Though I'm starting to read more to the contrary...and of course reading the frequency specs. sheets doesn't really do it. But maybe I'm on the wrong track??? Very frustrating as my ears are my guide but can't get my hands on most of the speaker models I'd like to audition...at least not locally. I'll post my reaction to those I've heard next..... hopefully will help others on the same quest. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1963 Registered: Dec-03 | Raymond Plummer yes agreed if your source is no good nothing on down the line will make up for it or improve upon it. But I have not been wanting to spend the kinda money on a cd player I would feel worthy. so I've gone the sacd/dvd-a route and would rank a descent one in the same catagory for sound quality as an exotic cd player. I have both the denon 2200 and a pioneer 563a "quite surprised with the pioneer" That's my view on that. Then I have a descent tube preamp then the amps and speakers Iv'e built or modified. (to many to use them all) My system is at a point recently that I'm actually quite content with. (very clean and clear with plenty of volume when asked for) Right now I'm actually triamping my system's front 2 speakers. A modded golden tube audio se-40 (with pio caps) runs my mid and tweeter in a 2 way cabinet with focal drivers. Then a second cabinet that the first is mounted on runs 2 12" drivers "jbl" in a sealed cabinet powered by a second modded golden tube audio se-40 with more capacitence then the first with poly caps. Then I'm running a 10" sub on each side powered by a larger solid state amp going through a dbx subwoofer processer. The outputs of my preamp go theough a 3-way box I made to feed all the amps. The sacd/dvd-a players 2 channel outs go through a z-man ase then into the preamp. That setup although nowhere near conventional has been the best I've heard in my home. And definatly away from the approach of simplest or shortest path. I listen to mainly 2 channel but this setup is also incorperated into my home theatre setup where I run a b&k ref 30 with the 31 upgrade package. As Jan and rick know I've recently gone all tube amp on my 7.1 system. Running the fronts as stated above "but removing the tube preamp" while the center channel is run by a rouge 88 with the rears and surrounds running modded st-70's. Multi channel music is also much enjoyed by myself and this setup works quite well for that and movies. The rest of the speakers in the surround including the center are the klipsch reference series. As stated this system "for me" does everything quite well. But I'm intrigued by what the so called "flea amps" with propper speakers and the minamulist approach would sound like in my home. Just trying to figure out how I want to go about it. Good to hear from you and explaing to us your system , thank you! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1964 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick: "As far as the Jolida goes, how can you go wrong at the price?" Yes that sounds great for the price. Probably the speakers too! Although I'm not sure why as many have said i'ts the way to go, but single driver speakers scare me! If you get the setup I'd love to hear your thoughts verse others you've owned. "as I know you've owned many" |
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New member Username: RaymondPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-04 | Kegger: you certainly know your way around the electronics side of the audio gear...quite an ambitious system. Pleased you are happy with the sound you are getting. I am no electronics engineer though quite handy. Schematics and design are beyond my scope...may be some day I'll learn more that I can apply to this (disease?)search for the "golden sound"? Agree with you also...the Jolida gear is hard to beat for value. Another line to consider is Antique Sound Labs...good value tube gear, nice website. Also check out this Brit site www.worldaudiodesign.com. The Brits have a real good handle on "valves" and all things related. On the speaker front I assume everyone is aware of the "Hi-Efficiency Speaker" board on the Audio Asylum website, as well as the "SET" board. I'll try some postings over there to see what kind of feedback I get! Bye for now. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Here's some thoughts on what I have read and considered over the past 24 hours. I keep seeing reviews of tube equipment stating something to the effect of, "I use this XYZ amplifier to soften the edge of my ABC player." That seems to give the impression tubes are to be used because they DO roll off the top end. In my experience this is the equivalent of writing, "I use Prego straight from the jar, not because I like the nice label, but, I find the taste of real homemade pasta sauce to be too intense, too much like real tomatoes." Why won't someone say the sound of a lot of solid state gear just plain sucks. Tubes shouldn't be used for the band aid effect of not having the nastiness of s.s.. If that is your reason for using tubes, to me, you are well off base. That's my opinion on that, now on to other things. Rick - If you presented me with the information you have so far, and, I could provide you with any product you think you might want, here's how I would go about it. I think the Omega's are a good starting choice. You may find, later, they don't do everything you want in a single speaker; but, they are well documented to give you a point of reference about where they stand in contrast to the competition. That, combined with what you hear, is a good place to start when you make your decisions about what your new system has accomplished. With information, and your own opinion, you can progress with a clear sight of where you think you want to finally end. To the issue of what amplifier, here are the issues as I see them. You are taking a chance on tubes to begin with. Tubes have become the "drug" of choice for many people in hifi. Thay give you a sound you can't get with S.S.; they can be magic if you'll only try them; once you have done tubes, you'll never go back; and more in print and on the street that has grown tubes into a mystique that prompts interest. I'll leave it to you to decide what tubes are and aren't. You have made the commitment to listen to something new, so now how to make the process as pleasant as possible is the issue. Once you have decided whether tubes are something you want to live with you can progress further or stay with your first choice in a tube system. The Omega's should provide the flexibility to move into a smaller wattage SE at a later date. I think you are smart then to stay with a push pull amp of low to medium wattage, say 15 to 30 watts. Small amps often sound better than their large wattage brethren anyway. If you are then going to look at a small wattage amp I would suggest you make one decision first. New or old? Let's look at old first. The review of the Jolida mentions its lineage from the classic amps of yesteryear. And, as I've seen things over the last 30 years, most of the successful tube amps have, for the most part, been a copy or a rehash of classic designs. When you get to simple circuits there isn't much you can do to severely change them unless you no longer want a simple circuit. Parts have made more difference in the quality of sound from tubes, and s.s., than most other changes that have occurred in the same thirty years. (And there are those who feel P.I.O. caps from the past are still superior to new poly's, eh, Kegger?) Rick, you have the option of going with an old Scott from Mapleshade. It IS a classic design already and has a following among the vintage hifi people that will almost certainly assure a good resale value if you decide to change amps in a short time. It is, in my mind, a safe bet from almost every aspect of the deal. And you are listening to "the real thing" in terms of what have people heard in the old stuff that they then build on in the new. (Sort of like buying a rebuilt '69 Mustang or a new '05 Mustang. Each has its own merits.)) As I read the information these amps have been redone to include the best of the "new" parts that bring the sound up to today's standards to give you 2004 sound not 1964 sound. Transformers are the heart of a tube amp and transformers have seldom been as well made as they were when tubes were common. (The other side of that, as I have told Kegger, is the transformers are forty years old. Transformers don't age like caps and resistors, but, they do age.) The Scott amp from Mapleshade also looks retro cool, by the way. The new choices would come down, for me, to what fits a few criteria that I have for all my audio purchases. First, is obviously my perception of what I'm buying in terms of sound. The Jolida seems to satisfy that part of the question. This, from reviews of most all mid priced tube amps, is dependent on finding new tubes to replace the stock items. Not hard but a bit of time and expense. (See tube rolling later.) Jolida seem to have moved into an area of audio where they don't do much advertising and can rely on their reputation to sell enough product. The next question I pose to myself is what type of reliability does the product have. I always told my clients anything sounds better in your home that in my shop. No matter what reviews it gets, if it breaks, you'll be unhappy. Even with good service after it breaks. You will have to satisfy yourself on this matter, I don't know the reliability of amps today outside of a few lines. Then I concern myself with resale in the event I decide not to own this piece forever. The reputation of the Jolida can satisfy that need also, I would say. You shouldn't have a problem trading to another amp if you decide the Jolida isn't exactly where you want to end your tube choice. Other amps you've mentioned can also fit these requirements if you are purchasing used equipment. I'd say a matter of warranty is what you choose then. So, Rick, the choice is quite simple, really, Scott or Jolida ... or Cary ... or Sun ... or EAR ... or ... You're looking at what I would consider good choices with any of these amps, Rick, you have to decide and pull the trigger. Waiting isn't getting your system sounding any better. If you decide tubes are the transconductance device you want to use to bring music into your life, then, I suspect, you can learn more about tube rolling, NOS and Russian vs. Chinese tubes. After that the SE may still be calling. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Kegger - I read your list of components twice. I still don't know what cable will make my subwoofer sound really great. What's up? How close are you to deciding which SE to go with? After you get that set up it seems you still have the decision of potentiometer, stepped resistor pairs or transformer based volume controls. There will always be another decision to make. |
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J. Vugne Unregistered guest | I forgot to mention ganged or dual mono. Didn't want you to think you get off that easy. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Vugne? Larry's right - time for Scotch, it's after 12 noon. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1965 Registered: Dec-03 | sorry guy's football sunday i'll be back tommorrow! Last week before playoffs start in fantasy football. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 685 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks for the great advice. Just two questions and I think I will be on my way to making a final selection. Although I will ultimately go with the Omega Grande 6 speakers, I still want to hear the 3/5's with tubes. Will a 15-20 watt push pull drive a 84 db speaker to moderate levels? Secondly, what is the sonic difference between ouput tubes? Should I be looking for a pushpull with say a KT88 or a EL34, or another choice? PS-OK I'll say it: Most solid state sucks! Go enjoy your Scotch......................... |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1966 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick! "Will a 15-20 watt push pull drive a 84 db speaker to moderate levels? Secondly, what is the sonic difference between ouput tubes? Should I be looking for a pushpull with say a KT88 or a EL34, or another choice?" The kt88\6550 is a more straight forward amplifying device and doesn't have as much of the "tube sound" the el34 is a little more lucious! I would think a 20 watt amp should give you a good taste of what the 3/5's would sound like with tubes. And yes give you a moderate amount of volume. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1967 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan: Don't know what all this means "Kegger - I read your list of components twice. I still don't know what cable will make my subwoofer sound really great. What's up? How close are you to deciding which SE to go with? After you get that set up it seems you still have the decision of potentiometer, stepped resistor pairs or transformer based volume controls. There will always be another decision to make." But I'm still young and am listening and learning to understand more about what is out there. I know there will allways be better. I'm just trying to figure out what I want to hear next! Maybe it's flea SET! Maybe it's trying to determine what will give me more of what I like about audio! Maybe the more we discuss or what I read or what I hear will point me somewhere! At this point I don't have much in the way of preconcieved notions on what the next step holds. So I'm all eyes and ears! Right now just in the gathering info stage as I'm very content with my system! But am allways curious about what I haven't heard! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Rick - I thought you'd like my definitive answer on which amp to buy. Yes, a 20 watt amp will push the 3/5 but not as hard as the 3/5 will push the 20 watt amp. I don't know the complexity of the 3/5's X-over. That is where a lot of energy gets eaten up in many speakers, my 3/5a's as an example. I will look for some information about the complexity of the X-over and give you more of an opinion/guess. I know I had my 3/5a's running with a Mac MC225 (25 X 2) tube amp for a while and could obtain levels that satisfied me. But I don't listen that loud and I didn't push the types of music I played through that combination. My best advise right now would be to try it. You can tell when the amp has run out of steam and that's when you turn it down. My guess right now is you'll find it does well if your musical tastes don't push it too hard. Here's a little speaker that has caught my attention lately: Page down for information on tube sound: http://www.vacuumtube.com/tubes.htm http://hometheater.about.com/library/weekly/aa082200a.htm?terms=vacuum%20tube http://www.vintagelectron.com/ Descriptions of tube sound by tube type and brand: http://www.tubedepot.com/ http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/ That certainly should keep you busy for awhile. Let me know if that raises more questions than it answers. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2565 Registered: Dec-03 | Nice thread, Rick. I have been wondering where Old Dogs is going. The surround vs stereo question seems to have been lost. Just as I think we are finally getting somewhere, the answer disappears, like a mirage. Nice discussion Kegger! I keep seeing reviews of tube equipment stating something to the effect of, "I use this XYZ amplifier to soften the edge of my ABC player." Yes, Jan, I read things like that, and wonder. I go for the real tomatoes, as you know. I do not want "warm". I do not want adjectives, really, except "accurate". If you can describe the sound of an amp, there is something wrong with the amp, in my view; amps should not have sounds. Naive? The Affordable Valve company, for example, says their amps get rid of "irritating sibilants". This reminds me of tone controls, treble cut, and other undesirables. I have never been irritated by being able to hear the words of songs. Thanks for the overview, Raymond. Great gear. I asked before, but you have been spared the other thread "Teaching an old dog new tricks". Do you, or does anyone, have any knowledge of the "Affordable Valve Company"? It is a UK (only?) direct-sale manufacturer, advertising in HiFi news, Gramophone, etc. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2566 Registered: Dec-03 | The Affordable Valve Company Let me put my reservations about tube amps as follows. Peter Walker of Quad, I think, said that the ideal amplifier was a straight wire with gain. I think I can confirm this for pre-amps: I have a stereo system with no pre-amp at all. It sounds good. CD-player-level outputs can be given directly to a power amplifier in most cases. So the perfect pre-amp is not there. For convenience we need source selectors and a gain control. But that is all a pre-amp should do; not add or subtract any quality to the programme material. Now, people use lots of ways to describe the sound of tube/valve amps, and this is my problem. Is it possible to make a general statement about how tube/valve amps compare with transistor amps from the "straight wire" point of view? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1968 Registered: Dec-03 | John: My answer would be yes. To me they are smoother without the harshness accosiated with solid state. The way soild state amps make power is "rough edged to me" compared to tubes. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1969 Registered: Dec-03 | Many people who like tubes feel that solid state does something to the music that makes it hard or edgy. Not the other way around that they take music and remove the edgyness! Having said that you "can" get tubes that are more lush sounding that "can" tame what solid state or digital does to the music. This is my view , you "can" get it both ways. It depends on what you are looking for. I feel the 6l6gc tube is more of a piece of wire with gain that does not "do" anything to the music. Just a typical sound of what a tube amp doesn't do to the music that a solid state amp does. MY 6l6gc amps seem very nuetrel and give you what you put in. "unless you want it to by changing caps or what not" but the el34's or the 6550's have a lushesness about them with the el34's more than the 6550's. But like jan said it's the curcuit or the caps or the transformers that can change these things. But for my experience the 6l6gc just produces what you throw at it more than the others I have experience with. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2567 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Kegger. That is more the sort of thing I am after. The AVC has a 30-day home trial period, so I am inclined to give it a go early next year. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1970 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes John I believe so also. That is the beautiful thing about tubes they can fit all tastes. And if your a tinkerer you "can" change the sound if you want! (for some as jan has said it can get maddening) |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1971 Registered: Dec-03 | http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/ |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 686 Registered: Dec-03 | John, Welcome back. I'm glad you like the thread. I know some of the "Dogs" have no interest in tubes, so I did not want to bore them with several hundred posts. I look forward to your input as we progress. Cheers! Kegger, Great stuff as usual. Jan, Thanks for the links. Let me digest all the info, I'm sure to have questions. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2568 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, Thank you. I will not contribute so much here, until I have something concrete to say. But I will read with interest. All I can thinkof right now to add is that there was an "affordable" (c. $1,000) made-in-China, Dutch imported, integrated stereo tube amp rated very highly in HiFi news earlier this year, called the "PrimaLuna Prologue One". There are some ecstatic consumer reviews e.g. on Audio Review. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2571 Registered: Dec-03 | Review of the PrimaLuna Prologue One in "The Absolute Sound". |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1972 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick , john , all ,I believe we can all contribute to this thread. As we all have the passion for music and maybe improving our systems! I can only go by my own experiencies and what those lead me to believe, with trust in myself that I understand what I hear and see! So most of what I've tried to contibute is what I've learned from experience. And then what I believe that has told me. With this thread and the people who contribute I hope to learn much more! From everyone! I still need to read all the info others have contributed and comment on it. Rick I had asked you a few questions earlier on and would like your opinions when you get around to it. John others have conveyed in fairly deep thought what their systems do and more to the point where there trying to go, how about you? Jan and Raymond Plummer do you guys think your systems will change at all from anything that might come about on this thread? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 687 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, What this hobby has always been about for me is the music, first and foremost. I have always been looking for that purety of sound. I think timberal accuracy is most important. I don't care about the gear, or listening to the system. For me it has to sound accurate or real. If I'm listening to a recording of a trumpet, and I close my eyes, I want it to sound like that trumpet is being played 7' in front of me. A horn sound sound like metal, a guitar like wood. I want to hear and feel the wood of that acoustic guitar resonate. Asyou know I have had a lot of hi-end gear over the years. The closest I have ever come to the sound I am seeking is with the simple setup I have now. I am glad I decided to simplify. I'm hopefully going to take that simplicity to the next level. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | John - When using a line level source that has sufficient voltage you can drive an amplifier directly from the output of the source, such as a CD player. However, problems can arise with the insertion of a volume control into the line. It then becomes a straight wire without gain. Since a VC will pad down the input by adding resistance to the "circuit" it will change the interface bewteen the source and the amp. This potential mismatch of output to input impedance will (most usually) have its least effect at only one point on the control. That point will be when it is, for all intents, out of the line. In otherwords when its total impedance load is at a point that makes the match between out and in agree with what the amplifier (mostly) agrees to. This becomes a problem when any other VC setting beside that one point is desired. A loss of dynamics, clarity and life in the music is the result of all other combinations of out to in on that VC. What the simplest active gain stages will provide is an output buffering stage which will maintain a given output impedance of the pre amp. It doesn't have to provide much gain, maybe as little as 1 dB, but you have now introduced more electronics into your straight wire. If you believe every part added to a circuit has the potential to add its own sound and detract from the original signal there will never be a truly straight wire with gain until a system is designed which provides a fixed volume that satisfies all listening needs. Maybe this is the promise of digital after all. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Kegger - I doubt that my system will change for several reasons. First, I tried my best to get off the upgrade train many years ago. I really can't afford to change as often as I would do if I hadn't made that decision. Not if I was to continually seek an "upgrade", simply because, as I said there is always something better. I had too many clients that were, in my opinion, addicted to something new. It was an interesting process to watch from the outside but I never wanted to play in their league. I sought what I considered to be a very good system that succeeds at accomplishing what I want more often that it fails. The ability to understand and enjoy the music is of prime concern to me. The need to chase after every last quantum bit of information on a disc was never my intent. As long as I can manage my simple goal I am satisfied. I have mentioned on Old Dogs the direction I am more interested in is how little can I spend and own to accomplish my goal. Simplify. To that end I think the acquisition of a Tivoli Table Radio with a decent source is where I might head. In a way we are seeking the same goal, a simple path that has music at the end. While you are interested in what is available from SET and the like, I have had a taste of that fruit already in dealing with clients systems. But my experience is mostly with the original stuff. Old stuff. And that is more fascinating to me than new stuff. So my General Electric table radio from the '40's is where I will put my money and time. I has a single 6" speaker, an AM tuner, bakelit knobs and an enclosed rim drive turntable. It can play 78's. It also has a single triode output tube. And to top it off it's mono. What I am interested in now is what the source has to offer in older recordings and what it sounded like to my grandparents who owned this GE unit first. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1974 Registered: Dec-03 | Allright Jan. I'm allways interested in what everyone is doing. And the majority of the time we use you for a knowllage source so I'm interested where your at these days on your system. And it is good to see that someone can get to the point where your at. That tells me that maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel or maybe better yet the tunnel does actually end. lol |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1980 Registered: Dec-03 | Well guy's I think I'm going to hold off on the amp for now. I've got so many choices here still with what I've got that I'm just going to keep experimenting with what I have! "unless a great deal comes along" Next amp ? When or if I do , at this point it will be a 300b or 2a3 based tube. "preferably no less than 15 watts" But I've recently been trying to finishup some of my speaker projects, also these speakers projects were started before I got into tube amps. So I want to listen to them with the tubes I have! Just tonight I changed the se-40 (6l6gc based) for the rouge 88 (6550 based) On the top half of my system with the focal drivers. (90db) The focal drivers are a little more rigid and tight then the modded Jbl's were. The rogue is a little looser then the se-40 which seems to be a better musical match! (I'm using it in triode mode) I'm still reading all the other links on here and will contribute as allways! "Didn't think you'd get rid of me did yu?" |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1981 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick this amp may be a consideration for you. I can personally vouch for the company and the configuration of the tubes plus the curcuitry on this amp! It's an ultraliner (cross between push pull and triode) 60 watt a channel, "should drive the spendors nicely" and it's swichable to triode at about 35 watts a channel! "The Rogue Tempest Integrated Amplifier Dynamic, transparent, and profoundly musical, the Rogue Tempest sets a new standard for integrated amplifiers. Utilizing sophisticated circuitry borrowed from our most advanced designs, the Tempest is able to outperform separates costing far more than this single box design. And with 60 watts of pure tube power, this integrated is capable of realistic volume levels that will rival the clarity and presence of the original performance. While the Tempest is a near flawless stand alone amplifier, its flexible design has been engineered to expand as your system requirements grow. An optional preamp-in feature allows you to add an external preamp, while the active output allows for the addition of another power amplifier or powered subwoofer. The optional metal remote adds the convenience of remote volume operation. Rogue Audio...An intelligent indulgence General Features: - Matched quad output tubes - Ultra-wide bandwith output transformers - Massive high storage power supply - All precision components - User selectable 4 or 8 ohm output taps - Heavy (2 ounce) copper circuit board - User selectable triode or ultralinear output - Optional remote volume control (metal) - (4) KT88, (4) 12AU7, (2) 12AX7 tube compliment - 6 inputs (phono, CD, tuner, tape, aux, preamp) - 3 year limited warranty (6 months on tubes) - Passive and active outputs - Integral tube cage - Detachable IEC power cord - Alps volume and Noble balance control - Entirely designed and built in the USA" here's one on audiogon at a shop in new york, maybe you could demo it! http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?intatube&1105399103 It's an integrated that can be used as a standard amp where you provide the preamp or you can use the preamp section to power another amp. It has a remote and I believe subwoofer out! They want $1200 from the audiogon dealer and maybe a little cheaper if you find a used one. Anyways just a thought as I know how well my rouge plays and is made. Not to mention I think it does everything you want, plus the switch from ultralinear to triode is kinda nice! May even power the mmg's at 60watt ultralinear. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 690 Registered: Dec-03 | OK friends, I have been reading and studying and have come to the following conclusions. The tube design technology peaked in the 50's and 60's. The dominant design was the push-pull pentode, with the McIntosh 275 and Marantz 9 leading the way in the high power units. Along came the 70's, and the marketing wizards decided to appeal to the male ego the way car manufacturers did. Bigger must be better. So the more horsepower concept meant let's give them more watts. Well if we learned anything is that when it comes to amp design, more is not better. As maunufacturers built bigger and bigger crappy solid state amps, the speaker companies followed suit. They started building 4-2-1 ohm speakers so the amp builders could boast 400-700-1000 watt ratings. So now we were left with inferior sounding ss amps and the disfunctional speakers to go along with them. So much for the 15 watt pentode or triode with the efficient 16ohm speaker. So with the if you can't beat them join them attitude, the tube manufacturers got caught up in the power wars. The result meant compromising sounding tube amps. They still were more musically right than the transistor stuff, but got away from the simple circuits that made them superior in the first place. This remained the status quo until a few years ago, when the knowing dedicated few said enough and the SET cult was born. The manufacturers are now coming around to get back to building push-pulls right again. If I am wrong, or am on the wrong track here please let me know. I will go back and study and rethink the position. So I quess it comes back to the question: If looking for a 20-30 watt push-pull amp, should I be looking for a pentode or a triode? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1983 Registered: Dec-03 | In my oppinion rick triode. The ultralinear concept is nice too! "best of both" That's why I really like the rogue concept of being able to switch. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1984 Registered: Dec-03 | By the way rick I agree with your assessment. some of that I had mentioned to john awhile back. speaker manufacturers don't need to build effecient speakers. As anyone can get a 100 or 200 watt amp. most of the speaker manufacturers don't want to spend the time on r&d for good quality efficent speakers! So we the tube lovers suffer or have to search harder. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 691 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Kegger. I want to get this one right from the start. I want to be finished with the upgrade game like Jan is. I want to spend the next 20 years re-listening to my music. The equipment be damned. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1985 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan what do you think of the ultralinear setups and the amps having a switch to make them triode? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2574 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks. Quite by accident I have a Sony power amp with a gain control. By some freakish coincidence it is at about the right level for serious listening at 0 dB of attenuation. Rick, I am with you. All I would add, from my own point of view, is that I would like to go on discovering music, too. The question then arises: which format to get the recordings on, given a choice? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | My first comment would be Rick has the last fifty years of audio history correct with just a few minor adjustments. My view of the audio world has focused on the economics of the system. I have to say I never thought that amplifier and speaker designers cared much for what the other did over the last half century. When the AR1 was introduced in the '50's there were no amplifiers commonly available to drive an acoustic suspension system that was a good 6 to 10dB lower efficiency than any other speaker on the market at the time. If you'll look at the Scott, Emerson and McIntosh amps of 1954, they were producing 15-25 watts. The AR speakers drug the amplifier folks along behind them to produce 60-75 watt amps over the next ten years. And to accomplish this the tube designers had to create power pentodes like the 6550/KT88 that could dissipate 40-50 watts per tube. This was the spark that generated the golden age of tubes because they had to deliver the goods into the speakers that were being sold to the public. Along with the tubes came the power supply designs and the outstanding output transformers of the late '50's and early '60's. WWII had created a lot of people who could think outside the tank, if you will, who used their technical know how and curiousity to create both the best sounding tube gear and the first generation of solid state. By the late '60's s.s. had replaced tubes in most companies line up and the one thing s.s. could do that tubes couldn't was ship large wattage amps across the country for little money. The economics of moving a 40 watt tube amp with three large transformers from New York to L.A. was prohibitive compared to the cost of shipping a 75 watt s.s. amp with one (smaller) transformer the same distance. That cost differential allowed the Japanese to ship their amps across the ocean for little to nothing by comparison to what it would have cost in 1955. When the Japanese wanted more market share the route they chose meant they didn't compete on a sound quality basis, which was harder to sell in a fast moving store of 1974; the beginning of CMC, Pacific Stereo and Fast Eddy's, but chose, instead, to compete on watts and features. American companies had a hard time competing with this new wave of audio and companies such as Fisher, Scott, Heath, Emmerson, Marantz and so on got left behind in the economic boom of the '70's. As American High End began to emerge the tube companies like Acoustic Research and Conrad Johnson were dealing with the technology of the '60's with 75 watt amps. Meanwhile the s.s. manufacturers were busy competing with 160 watt Citation 16's and 300 watt Phase Linear 700's. Speaker manufacturers such as Infinity began producing in an apparent vacuum with towers that dipped to 1 Ohm (or less) and Dalquist panels that needed an Ampzilla to make a squeak. Space travel and Viet Nam brought about tremendous technological advances that resulted in a new breed of product. Remember one word ... Plastics! Darlington Pair output IC's drove most of the Japanese receivers to 150 watt output as Magnaplanar produced speakers the world had never heard before and Quad redesigned their speaker for the first time in 25 years. The amplifier companies saw each new speaker that would shut down the other guy's amp as an opportunity to show they could build an amp you could use for arc welding, even as DC amps became popular as the accepted route for "good sound". Dunlevys and Apogees needed watts and current as the speakers covered an impedance swing of 60-70 Ohms. All this time the Japanese high end was buying up the old American tube amps and Mac 275's and Marantz 8b's were sold shrink wrapped on the streets of Tokyo. The amps were put into tri amp systems with big horn loaded speakers. As the American tube companies hit 150 watt amplifers, the English companies Radford and Quad reintroduced their 15-25 watt tube amps from the '60's and a few people found the simplicity of simple circuits once again. The better materials of the '80's and '90's meant SET's could produce very good sound with a 300b; and, the shortage of available tubes appealled to the "I've got something you can't find" approach to high end audio. Now it was time for the speaker companies to catch up as the speakers of the day had shrunk to 84db efficiency with a dip to 0.05 Ohm. We have been in a period where the tube companies and the speaker companies are producing the products for this new market; but, who can they sell them to? With Home Theater replacing stereo systems and a Bose Wave Radio being given the "best buy" rating in Consumer Reports because it has a remote control, the SET market is a very small portion of the available buyers. It appears the tube companies are coming to the 15-25 watt range again to make a more palatable product that can attract an ever shrinking market share. New materials have made speakers more efficient and more consistent, now the amplifiers are again playing the catch up role. Mix that world view in with Rick's and I think we've covered most of the important points. |