Archive through September 25, 2004

SACDude Unregistered guest	Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 21:50 GMT Mr. Vigne and all - well, SACDude seemed to fall trippingly off the tongue. That's about it. I know it sounds like I'm a 20-something with an attitude, but I'm a 66-year old retired person who still maintains a sense of humor - in some things. At the moment I'm having a very hard time concentrating on my music - after watching that dreadful television news, and hearing of yet another American who had his head sawed off. I nearly gagged, and had to turn off the set and get a large glass of wine to calm my nerves. I know this forum is not one for ranting about foreign politics - but heaven help us, when will this madness end? (end of tirade) Too many CDs and LPs of the Brandenburg? Well, if you've got an item that people want - make and sell it. I personally have nine copies of the BCs, and yet I play them all to seldom. As I age I find that I pick music that better "fits" my listening room - thus, chamber music tends to win out over, say, a mighty symphony - usually. And ah, yes, my auto-loving friends. Back when, I had a Triumph TR-4. Loved that car - until a large delivery truck backed right over it, and turned it into scrap. 1963 - and I spent EVERY WEEKEND tightening up the bolts holding the doors in place - and tuning up the twin carbs. Talk about "tough love!" I miss her still. . . Nostalgia - good for the soul. More anon. . .
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 672 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 21:55 GMT Jan, "for when the MG didn't start" They must have sent the lemons to Texas, mine never failed me in the two years I had it and it had already had over a 'ton' of mileage. They were not fast, nor did they give gut wrenching acceleration, but they were 'kool' and always induced a nod and a friendly wave from fellow owners. A far cry from the bumper sticker "Honk if you have an Uzi on board" that's popular in Texas - or is that Miami? "Show him your cross" Terrific LOL! Oh, and all that 40, 30, and 20 year old stuff y'all are using - you're doing nothing for the Chinese employment situation you know! Yes Kegger - where are you? I hope you didn't get your wires crossed!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 674 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 23:59 GMT Okay, because you are the people here that I have come to know, love, honour and respect and because I don't wish to get into the great cable debate on other threads, and because I don't want to go and spend good money only to find it was for no good reason, I ask for your sage advice as I have little experience in this area. Although very happy with DVD-A and SACD sound, the big question is: Would this "Old Dog learn a new (worthwhile) trick" by using better cables between the 6 analogue connections from the universal DVD player to the receiver. The existing cables in use I believe are the equivalent to those (coaxial) from Radio Shack in the US. If the answer is yes - I'd be interested in your recommendations - excluding stupidly priced exotic cables.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 478 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 00:11 GMT Rantz, Thank you for the kind words, and likewise, my friend. The answer to your question is YES! The name of the game is transparency or neutrality. Let me ask: What is it you think you are hearing that you don't like-or-not hearing that you think you would like to hear?
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 675 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 00:56 GMT Rick Well, my friend, those are the questions for which I have no real answer. The fact is that I do like what I hear and don't really know if there is anything I'm not hearing. Duh - you say :-) The problem here is that there is no audio shop from where I can borrow cables. I suppose I will get some grief for asking this question being that I do like what I hear now. With our arrangement I believe the highs are clear, crisp and very well defined but not overly as to be aggrevating over long listening periods. Bass is out there and is as punchy - more or less - as I want/need it to be. And I can't complain about the mids though it would most likely be in this range where some improvement in detail could be applicable, but having no real reference it's really difficult to tell. I'm probably just being a typical audio enthusiast trying to wring out that last drop of sound quality from what I have in place. Monster, Audioquest, Acoustic Research etc seem to be the mid-price range but with 6 cables (minimum) I'm looking at somewhere between $350 and $500, which I think is a heck of a lot of money for wire, but that depends on how much is to be gained - doesn't it?
SACDude Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 02:22 GMT My Rantz and friends - I don't think you have to spend anywhere near $350 on cables! When I went to hook up the Philips to the Nad receiver, I looked around, and read a lot. I finally chose cables from a company whose ads appear often to the right of this forum - Blue Jeans Cables. I've found them to be very good - and if I remember correctly, I paid about $70 for them. However, as I do not have a center speaker, I only ordered five 3-foot cables. You might check our their web site, but I know several people who use their product - and happily so! Yes, I read on some of your forums where people get angry when discussing cables. It is not my intent to preach - only to say that, in my case, the Blue Jeans cables appear to be very good - this after using them for about a year. As I remember, they also have some good articles about cables on their web pages.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 02:35 GMT From "Enjoy the Music" The Lure of Vintage HiFi Whatever people say about classic Vincent motorcycles and many have waxed poetic: Said Red Molly to James that's a fine motorbike, A girl could feel special on any such like Said James to Red Molly, well my hat's off to you It's a Vincent Black Lightning, 1952 And I've seen you at the corners and cafes it seems Red hair and black leather, my favorite colour scheme And he pulled her on behind And down to Boxhill they did ride -- Richard Thompson No one suggests that a '52 Vincent Black Lightning will outperform a 2002 Kawasaki ZX-12R. The same can not, however, be said about NOS (a great oxymoron that continues to bring smiles) Western Electric 300B from the same period as compared to a modern mere 'replica' or, gasp, transistor. And aficionado's (or should we say nutters) of vintage hi fi do not limit themselves to old bottles either. There are those out there who swear until to they are blue note in the face that no modern bit of kit will touch will touch their Marantz 8b, their McIntosh MR71 Tuner, their Western Electric Amp, or Quad ESL 57 (a speaker that appears to be resting on broom sticks) for sheer listening pleasure. And you know what, I am liable to agree: Modern amplifiers may have more wallop, spec out better, and run cooler and more reliably, but the nutters who exchange Western Electric monoblocks on Ebay for the price of a decent used car will not have it any other way-other than price. For them, there is no better. There can be no better. And while I will admit to the possibility of their being 'better,' I would gladly light up Western Electrics every evening of the week to listen to Opera through RCA LC1As... if I had them. That said, there is (of course) great hi-fi out there today. To completely bury your head in the sand of the past is also to miss out. It is different for admirers of old bikes. A Vincent Black Lightning might be great engineering for 1952, and something great to be seen on at the café, but you will not find many used as daily drivers unless you are a Jay Leno. By contrast, Tannoy Golds are playing day in, night out, and thousands of Leaks, Quads and Dynaco's keep audiophiles heating bills down in the winter. Why is it that a reasonable priced Nissan 350Z will out run an early sixties exotic such as a Ferrari 250, but people believe that the ESL57 has not been bettered. Nostalgia? It's certainly a part. Nostalgia for simpler times and simpler technology where you could build an amplifier with your dad from a design in a wireless rag in an era where there was nothing so mysterious as an integrated circuit. (Editor's Note: The Ferrari is much more alluring visually and, as we are indeed "music" lovers here at Enjoy the Music.com, the Ferrari will sound better too. If one drove both the Ferrari 250 and the Nissan 350Z, i would estimate that 90% of enthusiasts looking for true driving pleasure would give the nod to the Ferrari. Motoring in not necessarily about ultimate speed in a straight line or just getting there. There is much more to the equation. Also note my first job was working for Heathkit... and i have an intimate knowledge of Ferrari sports cars.) Moreover, the Tannoys, the Heathkits, the Klipschs and even Garrards of the sixties actively encouraged hobbyists to build and take part in the process by supplying cabinet designs, kits and help for their products. It could not have been a cynical marketing exercise if you imagine the customer support nightmares that such a business model would have had to entail. (Editor's Note: i grew up enjoying Dynakits, Marantz, Garrard and 1969 Tannoy 12-inch dual-concentric Gold monitors in custom cabinets. As much as i have tried, my dad will not sell nor trade the Tannoy loudspeakers to me. They still sing sweet melodies to this day.) In truth, it must have had more to do with accommodating fellow travelers on the road to musical nirvana than milking the experimenter for their very penny. It was also for the reason that the great designers did not understand themselves as very much different from you and me and that there was a market for it. Those at Bottlehead and Pass Labs keep the tradition alive. But Nostalgia is not the whole story, but it is of course the easy answer. Some are convinced (without ever really listening) that those who listen to tubes or vinyl or what's probably worse vinyl through tubes are luddites of the highest order. This can not really be true insofar as some of the greatest development and revival in tube technology is directly because of the internet. And for people who like dragging rocks through vinyl furrows, we are a surprisingly well acquainted with the modern PC. Moreover, the great hi-fi pieces develop through time a historical aura all their own that new products cannot hope to match, though they sometimes attempt to in the way that the triode amplfiier manufacturers look to pre-thirties, pre-hi fi designs for their inspiration and marketing. Why not go then after the real thing? Many collectors admit to buying now what they lusted after when they were young and penniless. Now that they have the pennies, they spend them on what they would have then. Make of it what you will, but there are far more dangerous ways of living in the past. And where familiarity breeds contempt, rarities like Tannoy Backs breeds reverence. And where there is reverence magic is bestowed. Who cares how they sound? It's not the point. Quality? There's that. Much, but not all, of the stuff then was built, both in terms of design and execution, like, well, you know the term that involves, bricks, houses and what bears do in the woods. If you flip a Leak amplifier over, there is much to admire in the neatness of the wiring looms, the solidity of the chassis, and the weight of the transformers. One thing they are not, however, is beautiful. But an EMT turntable will spin well into the next century, long after its designers have ceased spinning in their graves about MP3s. And the stuff certainly was not cheap at the time and as such attracted the best designers of the time such as Saul Marantz, Peter Walker, Guy R. Fountain, et al. Had these greats started their careers twenty years ago, they would probably be out of work in the valley today. Jorges Luis Borges wrote that anything remembered was of value. He did not mean that what was valuable could not be forgotten. Only that if it was remembered, it must be worthy of being remembered and that is as much the case with classical poetry as it is with push pull amplifiers. But what I think it comes to down to is variety, listenability, value and because it brings the impecunious hobbyist back into the fold. During the golden age, various parishioners were pursuing different routes to Hi Fi. Some with push pull, others triode, different cartridges, horns, electrostatics, reel to reel and even Quadraphonic sound. Everything sounded a bit different and this difference in sound is to some people's taste. Now it is more, but not exclusively, about 'neutrality,' but people do not always want neutrality and this lack of neutrality appeals. Too much Hi Fi today, except at the extremes, is all too similar and because of its newness does not invite the user to enjoy differences in execution and design hi fi as does vintage equipment for much less money. And I do not know how we can judge without a time machine, but I think as with wine, much of the equipment has mellowed in time, making it even more listenable. And who really cares anyway? As we have said before, and as we will say again, Enjoy The Music, Enjoy the Hobby, Enjoy Chinese New Year.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 02:38 GMT Rantz - Give this a read: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cabrese.html
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2096 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 02:38 GMT Jan, Unfortunately I am with you on British cars. By the late 70s pretty well the whole industry had massive quality issues, and people just stopped buying them. It has been cured now, but they are all foreign-owned; the badges had been bought. Same for motorcycles, I think. It quickly gets very political. I had second-hand 1967 Triumph Spitfire Mk III once. The front suspension collapsed at 70 mph. That is an anecdote. Yes, Jaguars were much better off under Ford. They are still not profitable, which is why they closed the Coventry plant last week. I rented a Peugeot 306 diesel in UK. Great little car. Terrible sound system, though. Peugeot (French) is the last car maker left in Coventry, once the British Detroit. MR, We could start "Jaguar: to be or not to be" but I am afraid the statistics are probably there to support the case that would not stand with NAD. In 1969 an MGB was probably a still a well-made car. Ten years later the gearbox leaked oil on the drive away from the showroom and was quite likely to sieze up before the first service. I disagree with Rick on interconnects. But you could try some. I paid about equiv US$30 for a big, thick, well-made and grounded bundle of six, the "hi-end" from the local equivalent of Radio Shack. I think it was overkill. I also have three "out of the box" stereo pairs. One day will see if there is a difference. I personally think spending $350 to $500 on interconnects is crazy. You could get a superb turntable, complete with arm and cartridge, for that....! "Only six Brandeburg Concertos but six thousand recordings to choose from. " I think I now have five. That is four down on SACDude. Two general compass points. Original instruments. Really. There were no pianos, then, nor Boehm flutes, nor valved trumpets. Then, analogue is usually better than digital. SACDude, Great stuff. I also return to chamber music, especially string quartets. I have five complete Beethoven sets, including Quartetto Italiano on both LP and CD. Plus some extra sets of the middle and late. Prompted by J. Vigne amongst others I recently bought great Shostakovich String Qt. CD set. I was surprised by how accessible they are. Great music, really. Kegger, Hi there!. Thanks for the welcome back! Rick, The same. Best wishes.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2097 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 02:52 GMT Sorry that last one of mine refers back to previous posts. Will post back in reply to Jan. I try not to indulge in nostalia. Newer things are sometimes better, sometimes not. Cars and motorcycles have improved, there is little doubt. It has been said before, but "nostalgia ain't what it used to be"... I still think surround sound has something to offer, for music, the original point of disputation, for newcomers, here.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2098 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 03:19 GMT I have now read Jan Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:35 pm and it is wonderful. I can think of nothing more to say. Sorry to interrupt with that last post! MR, And the link re intereconnects/cables is right on, too. There just have to be similar suppliers in Aus. Yes, I would definitely go here: http://www.rsaustralia.com/
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 677 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 04:35 GMT Y'all! Funny isn't it? A US website (http://www.kb-electronics.com/i400mkii-2m.html) sells Monster Interlink 400 Mk11 a pair for $US37.00. In Aus the same product is $AU159.00 per pair. So we are being ripped off to the tune of about $AU105.00. So for the required 3 pair, these robbers would be getting away with quite a haul. I appreciate all your feedback guys and thanks for the great links and info. Maybe I'll be singing Que Sera Sera for a while and put the money to more DVD-A's and SACD's. AS I said, the sound is great so I suppose - if it ain't broke, why fix it? Not unless there's a darn, good, cheap reason :-)
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 678 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 04:45 GMT BTW My memory is going fast. There musn't be much time left. I now seem to recall our MGB was actually a 1967 model (not a '69), British Racing Green and the first, I think, with the electric overdrive. I know you'll all feel very relieved now that you know!
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 479 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 04:55 GMT Rantz, I went through all this wire/interconnect stuff many years ago. I know of $80 a pair interconnects that sound amazing, and $2000 a pair interconnects that sound like crap. While I don't believe you have to spend "silly" amounts of money on wire, they are components just as crucial as amps and speakers. That said, I think a good entry cable such as Kimber or ELO will sound dramatically better than what you are using now. Cheers!
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 480 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 04:59 GMT Jan, Great post. Thank you!
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1520 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 05:29 GMT mr. rantz. sorry for not seeing your post. i'm pretty much in agreeance with john a. I believe once you have good quality cabling that their is no need to seek further. I use acoustic research. i find them to be inexpensive quality cabling. from others who feel like i do have found "blue jeans cabe" and partsexpress.com house brand cable to be good. do i think you may experience an audable upgrade with better cable then you have now? maybe! but I won't spend a ton on cabling, i say snake oil! .............................................. jan: in complete agreeance with your postings earlier. many feel you have to have old equipment that new isn't any good. what just give up on technology? then you have others that feel if it's old it's junk. to me those are the uneducated. either by not reading or not listening. really good audio is somewhere in the middle. old ways of doing things "quality,tubes, or other" with new tech to bring out the best in the old. just recently i've been turned onto using old paper in oil capacitors in my newly modded amps to bring out the luciousness. "output stage" then theirs new tube companies trying to use new tech to build better tubes. it's like what john said before don't throw away what is good about the past just because it's old. keep what is good and build upon it. we can rebuild it make it better then it was before. that is my feeling if it's good but old their should be some new tech we can use to improve it.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 679 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 07:04 GMT Rick Thanks, what you say makes sense to me. I'm just not willing to spend 'stupid money' on cables - let alone try and explain it to Mrs Rantz. I will certainly investigate your input, for I too, am sure I could do better than these 'Radio Shack' types. Kegger Yes, thanks. I think I'll take away a bit from all you guys and end up with something reasonable, effective and relatively inexpensive. Cheers guys.
Marc C Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 07:08 GMT J.Vigne, Have a look at this... ~~http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1100397229~~
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 17:50 GMT Marc - Thanks for the link. I hate to see a pair of Angelus go for that small an amount of money. It hurts the image (and resale) of the speakers. There is a small cult, if you will, devoted to the Spica sound as Kegger knows. The seller is right about most of his assessment of the speaker. The only thing I would add, and I wouldn't expect this in an ad for the speakers, is they, like most speakers that can completely disappear from the room, need some careful set up to get the absolute maximum from the speaker. They are very much like Quads in this respect, while not huge they aren't a speaker that visually disppears in a room and their necessary placement can make them an item you decorate the room around or sacrifice what the Spica's can achieve. The room mine have been in for the past ten years has been a dedicated music room where the speakers got priority of placement and they sat well out into the room and in front of a pair of sliding doors that opened into the living room. By changing how much I opened the doors I could adjust the soundstage the speakers created and for big pieces of music I had a stage that could be twenty feet deep with a good recording. Electronic music and so forth had sounds that appeared to be outside the boundaries of the rooms, it was very impressive at times. I have changed my home around and as soon as I get the woodwork refinished in the back room my system will be set up again for two channel sources with the HT in a different room. At that point I will find out whether the Angelus is going to work in this new space. If it doesn't I will resort (poor me) to the LS3/5a's as my main speakers in that system. At that point I don't know what will happen with the Angelus. It is too good a speaker to just let sit and it definitely doesn't work as a HT speaker. But, as the seller in the ad said, they are very difficult to ship without the box that was specially made for them and my boxes were destroyed in the last move to this house. (John, make a note, when the movers tell you they are the fastest movers in town - move on. You don't want fast, you want careful.) I hope I have not given the impression that all things old are wonderful. My opinion has always been there are terrific pieces of audio gear that go without so much as a look by most people who want to improve their systems just because we have been told the next years model is new and improved. Like the pieces that dominate this forum (you know, the questions about how do I make this piece of crud I just spent money on sound good) the old world of audio had quite a few items that didn't sound good new and never will sound good other than as a nostalgic piece of interest. My opinion is that the audio world has been going further from the real sound of music as it has moved further away from a hobbyist market into trying to put as many channels of "sound" in every home with a big (or for that matter, any size) screen TV. Where a TR4 (which gave me one of the most terrifying rides I have ever experienced when, in a car badly in need of restoration and lacking a convertible top that could be raised, we climbed to around 100 M.P.H. as we crested a hill and the highway rushed past through the largely nonexistent floorboards, the bonnet began to shake and the driver reached under his seat to get out his bottle of Scotch for another swig.) represented, like the muscle cars of my youth, a thrill to drive to the corner store today's cars are safe while largely uninspiring. But what was so great about a '69 Chevy Nova six cylinder? (Yes, Kegger, I know you could rip out the six and weld new motor mounts for a 396, then change the tranny and rear end and so on but then it's not what it was.) My sister had one and there is little to be nostalgic about with that vehicle. So it is the same with many products be they audio or automotive. So, Kegger, you've become a part of the paper in oil caps, eh? Interesting development there. Be careful when they start telling you the only way to "hear" your amps is with an expensive cloth wrapped power cable. Rantz - I offered the link as a way for you to experiment with some inexpensive cables to get an idea what was available in terms of changing/improving your system. As a salesperson I seldom suggested that someone move away from a system they were happy with but I know the desire to find out if there is something better at not much expense is with most audiophiles. Cables largely are a matter of synergy with your system. They work or don't work by altering the physical properties within the interface of components. Change the capacitance between a pre and power amp and you alter the sound. (Change the capacitance of the interface between your power amp and speakers and you might just blow up the amp!) When you have a system that is working well it is often a matter of what an individual is looking for that will determine what they choose as a cable. As has been suggested you have to have a bit of an idea what you are looking for before you know whether you have found it. (I've posted it here before, but one of my favorite quotes from Henry Kloss is, "It ain't research if you know the answer.") Well, in this case you do have to know the answer to be successful. Most any change in cables will affect the system someway (are you out there, Gregory?) but whether it is an improvement or just a change is often up for debate. Changing for the sake of change, as we all know, is a futile adventure. Improving is your goal and most often you find it is done in small incremental steps when you are discussing cables. And what is good for one person, in their system, may not work well for others. (As an aside, I did try a Home Depot extension cord for my speakers in the HT and I am sticking with it as I find the sound quite enjoyable, not better than the Kimber mid priced I removed but equally listenable. The cord cost $6.59 to try. But, I had an extra extension cord from another source that I tried first and it lasted about twenty minutes in the system as it imparted a sense of timing that was as if everyone was playing in a different room with no monitor speakers.) I think you can improve your system with better cables but I would give a few cheapies a try just to get your feet wet as to what is possible. (No cable in my HT system cost more than $49 a meter unless it was a spare from my stereo system.) And what I suggested to all my clients, before they spent money on a cable, was spend some money and some time cleaning every connection in your system. Owning tube amps that has become a yearly housekeeping measure that most people ignore, particularly with solid state gear. I can't promise anyone anything but I would suggest the best thing you can do for your system right now is to get some Cramolin or similar cleaner and a handful of Q-tips and go at every connector in your system. Make everything nice and shiny again and make certain it makes a good secure connection. (This is especially helpful for low level signals like phono.) Put everything back together paying attention to cable routing, install shorting plugs in unused inputs (not outputs), put a good surge suppressor on the system (one that makes a difference in the background noise of your system is the key) and listen to a favorite piece of music. It could save you enough for a few more discs.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 17:54 GMT Rick - I saw somone signed onto the forum as "George W. Bush". Can I hope he doesn't try to bring democracy to the forum?
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 481 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 18:53 GMT Jan, I'm sorry....... I thought he could help find the NUN. (LOL!)
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2100 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 20:00 GMT Jan. An erudite, awesome post yet again. Thank you for the concern. I have the original packaging for everything, including the Planar 3. I even have the piece of strong cardboard you put between the platter and plinth, to protect the main bearing. Not bad after 25 years. However, various cats have had litters in various speaker boxes. I wonder if there are any truly contented audiophiles who have families, and pets. We shall have to take the removals in stages. The LP collection is far from the greatest of our problems. In the worst case, one could always nip back to the home town of Martin Luther, and re-stock. My current disaster is the refusal of my NAD T533 to play the EMI Mahler 5 (Rattle/Berlin Phil) DVD-A bought in Christminster. The DVD-V interview with the charming, talented and unassuming Rattle had me lining up with 2c and John S over the tragedy of Alma and the the heroism of Gus. Then the wretched DVD-A will not play. There is something rotten in the state of Denmark.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 20:20 GMT Rick - Having G. W. B. here to help find The Nun is rather like having him find Osama ... well, let's not discuss that. No one else is.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 20:27 GMT John - Have you tried cleaning the disc thoroughly? Years ago it was suggested that you clean the disc with dish washing liquid and then follow with a VERY thin wipe of WD40. Lots of people swore by it and claimed better sound quality after treatment. Lots of people, as people are wont to do, wrecked their CD collection by using many times too much WD40 and on some discs it would migrate between the layers and render the disc useless. Try it at your own risk. And, of course, if you do try it use a very soft cloth that won't scratch the disc surface and wipe straight out from the center to the edge of the disc, never in a circular pattern.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 482 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 20:32 GMT TOUCHE my friend! (LOL!) The current score is: Jan 1 - Rick 0
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2101 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 20:41 GMT Google does not have it. It will, soon. This is for Old Dogs who once drove Porches, MGBs, TR4s, and perhaps wonder if novelty has ever been all it's cracked up to be. Something in J. Vigne's post reminded me. Kingsley Amis. INSTEAD OF AN EPILOGUE. To H. I In 1932 when I was ten In my grandmother's garden in Camberwell I saw a Camberwell Beauty butterfly Sitting on clump of Michaelmas daisies. I recognised it because I'd seen a picture Showing its brownish wings with creamy edges In a boy's paper or on a cigarette-card Earlier that week. And I remember thinking, What else would you expect? Everyone knows Camberwell Beauties come from Camberwell; That's why they're called that. Yes, I was ten. II in 1940 when I was eighteen In Marlborough, going out one winter's morning To walk to school, I saw that every twig, Every leaf in the vicars's privet hedge And every stalk and stem was covered in A thin layer of ice as clear as glass Because the rain had frozen as it landed. The sun shone and the trees and shrubs shone back Like pale flames with orange and green sparkles. Freak weather conditions, people said, And one was always hearing about them. III In '46 when I was twenty-four I met someone harmless, someone defenceless, But till then whole, unadapted within; Awkward, gentle, healthy, straight-backed, Who spoke to say something, laughed when amused; If things went wrong, feared she might be at fault, Whose eye I could have met for ever then, Oh yes, and who was also beautiful. Well, that was much as women were meant to be, I thought, and set about looking further. How can we tell, with nothing to compare?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2102 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 20:52 GMT Jan, Thanks, but I took the disc out of its box, and the box out of its cellophane wrapper, only seconds before. All shiny and clean. It is a software incompatibility if I am not mistaken. I will track it down. Someone's published format is not what they actually decided to go with. When NAD refuses to play EMI then we have a problem.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 21:26 GMT John - Loved the poem. Are you sure your score is correct on the Political Compass? Kegger - Please weigh in on this thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/94490.html
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 21:35 GMT "Rick - Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 07:17 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you John and Kegger. Again, special thanks to Jan for pointing me in the right direction." I'm holding on to that for at least a 0.25 points in case this gets thrown into the Supreme Court again.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 483 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 21:56 GMT Jan, No problem sir, YOU can always count on me!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 680 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 22:22 GMT John A This could put an end to your DVD player blues: http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=6897 Sorry to hear you're still having problems with certain discs. Personally, I'd take the thing back and demand a refund. One problem disc in a few hundred could be excusable, anything less is not good enough. You could try freezing your discs too - I heard that does wonders. Maybe microwave them :-) Jan, Yes, thanks. I got a lot from reading that thread. I'll see what's available and inexpensive here in due course. But as you say, I'm not looking for a change unless it's an improvement. Cleaning connections will be part of the equation also.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 01:08 GMT Rantz - Remember, always change one thing at a time.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 682 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 02:56 GMT Jan Okay, gotcha, Thanks!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2103 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 06:25 GMT Jan, "Loved the poem." I am glad. "Are you sure your score is correct on the Political Compass?" No, not at all. I don't mind drifting left or right as long as I stay libertarian. Kinsley Amis drifted right. He went from angry young man to grumpy old cynic, but never even dreamed he knew what was good for other people. Mr Rantz, Thanks. That Marantz looks good. I have no time right now, but will first pursue this NAD player business as far as it leads. The DVD-A sound is wonderful, but the "no-play" score is now 2 out of 18, I think. EMI make things to the book. It is a serious black mark for someone. SACD will not have this problem, I am sure.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 686 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 06:50 GMT No problems John - er, that's a Denon by the way and may be better than my HIGHER BL*$DY PRICED 2900! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Marc C Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 07:27 GMT J.Vigne, Welp, fine cult audio doesn't need a high price tag. I'm just trying to stop crying because I was $350 and 75 miles away from what sounds like an amazing speaker... Oh well, ho hum, least he spoke well of the Europas. It keeps me curious about them. As for doing 100mph over a mountain in a TR4 with a whiskey-swilling pilot - I can only imagine. Funny thing that old steel. No matter what car I get in my life, none will match my first love - a 1970 Ford LTD Station Wagon with a 400ci. engine and simulated wood paneling. Love is a many spendored thing... Meantime, I'll try to get over the Spicas and salivate over the Celestion Ditton 66's on ebay right now. Such a problem is desire...
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 16:52 GMT John - Jerry Rubin went from "Steal This Book" to, "Buy mutual funds from me." But he was always certain he knew what was good for others. Ah, youth; tis a shame it's wasted ...
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 16:54 GMT Marc - There will no doubt be more Spicas for sale as they get pushed out of stereo systems to make way for the Home Theater Extravaganza Megolith. But that was a great deal.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 484 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 18:44 GMT Jan and all "OD's", I must start by stating that this post is NOT a joke. I have just seen one of the most frightening things in my 54 years on earth. I just saw a nun, yes Jan, a nun on cable tv hawking religious figurines and such on the "Best of EWTN Religious Catalogue" program. I'm sorry, I have to go sit down now for a spell. Maybe I'll go sharpen some wooden stakes first.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 22:10 GMT Rick - I bet the really scary part was when she told you how much time you had left.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 485 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 23:00 GMT Jan-The really scary part was she was using a wooden ruler to show the size and scale of the figurines..................A WOODEN RULER..........THE HORROR!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 687 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 23:58 GMT Rick Do you think the President was just helping her out as a favour?
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 486 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 00:30 GMT Rantz, I was surfing thru the channels and there she was. I swear, I thought it was a joke at first. I thought it was Comedy Central or some such show. Then I realized I was face to face with Jan's worst nightmare.............Sister Mary Elizabeth Elephant.......ruler in hand! Please remind me to never turn on the TV again. I'll go straight to the Mac, fire it up and listen to music instead............no more TV ever! How can Angels get to sleep when the Devil leaves his porch light on?
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:15 GMT OK, my heart was racing when I read about the wooden ruler, till I got to Rantz's post. Good one, Rantz! I'll bite, how can Angels sleep when The Nun, er, sorry, Fruedian slip there, when The Devil ...yada yada?
Marc C Unregistered guest	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:27 GMT J.Vigne, Yes, thank god for people and their bandwagon ways. For audiovagabonds like myself will be waiting in the wings to scoop up their Spica's for $325 as they go purchase their Bose 14-point surround systems at Circuit City. Blows the mind at what can be had for so little. Here's to homework, good advice, and patient shopping...which will allow a lowlife like myself to afford a gentleman's system.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1523 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:36 GMT MARC HAVE YOU HEARD SPICA'S?
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1524 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:39 GMT jan i just posted right after you on the tube amp/pre post. let you know what you think. hopefully i didn't go against anything you said. i don't believe i did and think were on the same page. I think he's after "new" tube sound
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1525 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 04:41 GMT man i am good at typing! "let ME know what you think"
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 688 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 15:03 GMT Ghia We're anxious to hear about your Mac saga. What's happening? Where are you? Hope all is well! Don't worry about the Nun - she seems powerless in this thread.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 15:51 GMT Marc - Just be careful with the pre owned market; never buy used beer.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2104 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 16:19 GMT Mr Rantz, Sorry "Denon". I was in a hurry. I thank you for the tip. It is not on sale yet, as far as I can see. I picked up an Oct HiFi News on the way back from Denmark, I will undoubtedly find one or two snippets of information to pass on. It does seem from my recent trips that SACD is geeting some sort of hold, if only in the minds of retailers. It is easy to think of it as the next step after CD. In contrast, DVD-A seems to have everybody puzzled, including manufacturers of discs and player, who cannot agree on the format one needs to work with other. I am still pi**ed off about the Mahler 5 disc, and will try to take it to the NAD dealer tomorrow. I hope I do not have to explain yet again that you do not get DVD-A with a co-ax cable no matter how expensive.... the last one they wanted me to try, to see if it made a difference, seemed to be made of pure gold and have a casing made of some exotic polymer previously known only to NASA.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2105 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 16:34 GMT Sorry "My" not "Mr". It was a typo, not undue formality!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2106 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 16:44 GMT I see my dealer now lists the Denon DVD-2910. I'll take a look.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 689 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 21:55 GMT John A I can't believe any dealer/salesperson would suggest different cable when a player will not execute a certain disc correctly. And to suggest using a digital output really takes the cake. Do these people get any training? It has to be either (a) the disc is faulty or (b) software/hardware in the player. With our Denon DVD-2900, there was only one rental disc that refused to play. Apart from much usage of DVD-A, SACD, DVD-V music, we would rent about 10 -12 DVD movies weekly (we get bad TV reception which we hope will be rectified soon with digital transmission) so the error factor seems virtually non existent. Good luck with the dealer on the NAD player issue otherwise this new Denon 2910 may be well worthwhile taking a look at - seems very impressive and versatile at the price point (think about future projector usage also).
Marc C Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 08:11 GMT Kegger, NO - NOT YET. But for $350 I intend to... They terrible? J. Vinge, Used scotch ok? Kidding - I'll be careful. Where's Ghia? I'm concerned...
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2107 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 09:28 GMT My Rantz, Oct HiFi news flags the forthcoming Denon 3910 as the replacement to for the "hugely successful" Denon 2900. Those two are about the same price. Apparently converting DSD to LPCM is now a "feature" - you will remember good folk on this forum were agonising about whether this was OK in a budget Pioneer. I do wonder whether this is Pioneer's and Denon's way of escaping paying a massive licence fee to you-know-who, and the money saved goes on sound-quality-relevant design, components, and manufacture, instead. My conspiracy view about SACD/DSD is rather endorsed by the Editor of HiFi news, in a reply to my letter, which they publish a second time (was in Sept, too). Quite an honour! HFN is an Old Dogs magazine, full of reviews of turntables, cartridges, valve amps etc, in addition to the more up-market modern stuff. They do seem to stand back and ask if things are any good, really, irrespective of hype and specs. Their quarterly AV supplement gets really good, in the same spirit, on video, surround, etc. Their music reviews are not so great. But there is an amusing review of Aimee Mann's "Lost in Space", now on vinyl: "...As noted in the ...review of the SACD, this already sounded wonderful on 'normal' CD. This betters both on every respect. Vinyl boosters can cite 'Today's The Day' as the track to end a digital versus analogue argument...." Good point about HDMI on the Denon and our future plan to get a projector, I had not thought of that. Thanks! Will report back on the NAD T533. I will also post about that on NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 690 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 12:01 GMT John A I know the new 3910 is the replacement for the DVD-2900. The new 2910 has almost the same features but as a lesser price. The conversion of DSD to LPCM is a feature mainly to allow full bass management and time/distance settings for the speaker setup - the latter not an option for SACD on the DVD2900. But, for the purists, the new 2910 ans 3910 allow pure DSD playback also - at least that is my understanding. And both have on-board 2nd generation Sony DSD decoders - same as the 2900 and 2200. I am pleased you found someone who endorses your conspiracy theory. Many experienced sound engineers, however do not and from the standpoint of my own ears, tend to side with them. More so now that Sony/BMG is one of the recording companies going ahead with duel disc DVD-A.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1526 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 13:31 GMT marc c. "sorry caps was on" no on the contrary! for the price you can get those things on audiogon for it's a shame. those peakers are wonderful your in for a treat! best of luck to yu!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2108 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 14:00 GMT MR, I am sure SACD sounds better than CD. My "conspiracy theory" (note quotes) is simply that the primary objective of SACD is not sound quality, but to stimulate demand (from dissatisfaction with what we already have) whilst introducing copy protection; this tends to be hidden from consumers. If Old Dogs agree the thing to do is to enjoy the music, we should bear this possibility in mind. NAD, Denon, Pioneer and so on are big, but still independents: they really have no choice but to make a better product. Or at least, try to. We have discussed this before. Several people here, and in HiFi News and elsewhere, have asked, innocently, "How can I copy DSD files from an SACD disc?" or "How can I play SACD on my computer?". The answer seems to be "you can't - SACD is designed, from the ground up, to make this impossible". There was a choice quote from a Philips rep, in reply to such a question in HFN. The Editor quotes it back in the Oct issue, after my letter. It essentially says "If we allowed people to play SACD on their computers, then they could copy the files, and we are not having that". I'll scan and send the page if you are interested. It is a good mag, though; recommended. I fear a lot of the stuff they review is out of our sort of price range, however! I also have this nagging feeling that DVD-A, once pretty much "in the clear" (as LPCM) is now getting copy-protected, and this may be something NAD did not cater for, and EMI has now introduced, too. This could the at the bottom of the "no-play" issue, and, if so, it will get more common. I have written to NAD and EMI about my specific problem, with just the technical issues, not the politics. I'll report back with what they say. I ask fellow Old Dogs - has the industry always sought ways to ensnare music lovers? I am been naive and nostalgic in thinking I recall a time when record companies competed with each other to deliver a better-quality recording that anyone could play, and equipment makers did likewise, wanting to succeed by selling a better product at a competitive price...? When you bought an LP, then you owned it, and could do what you liked with it, apart from dire warnings about broadcasting etc. Ditto a turntable. All the best. PS The Mahler 5/Rattle disc is pretty good in DTS, and there is video of the performance, with Rattle grimmacing and leaping about, the orchestra, the hall. Two Cents would be interested to see the hall. Where are you, 2c? For the music alone, one can always switch off the TV!
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1527 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 16:39 GMT john like i have sid i understand and agree with the manufacturers on this one. "We have discussed this before. Several people here, and in HiFi News and elsewhere, have asked, innocently, "How can I copy DSD files from an SACD disc?" or "How can I play SACD on my computer?". The answer seems to be "you can't - SACD is designed, from the ground up, to make this impossible". There was a choice quote from a Philips rep, in reply to such a question in HFN. The Editor quotes it back in the Oct issue, after my letter. It essentially says "If we allowed people to play SACD on their computers, then they could copy the files, and we are not having that". " then you go on to point this out. "I ask fellow Old Dogs - has the industry always sought ways to ensnare music lovers? I am been naive and nostalgic in thinking I recall a time when record companies competed with each other to deliver a better-quality recording that anyone could play, and equipment makers did likewise, wanting to succeed by selling a better product at a competitive price...? When you bought an LP, then you owned it, and could do what you liked with it, apart from dire warnings about broadcasting etc. Ditto a turntable. " with the mass amount of copying out there "NOW" i see why the manufacturers wnat copy protection "NOW" and didn't need back in the day. copying is much more wide spead now then it ever was. so i don't feel it was needed before but now it is. and with technology nowadays being able to make an excact copy is very inticing for the general public. where back in the day you used a cassette or real to real, not the same as making a digital copy. so many would not want to copy in the past as the recording would be degraded but with digital it's different. that is my feeling on the whole thing. i don't look at it as a trap or conspiracy but more a protecting their investment.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 16:40 GMT I would suspect Ghia is busy listening to music on her "new old stock" system. A wise investment of time. There are some out in the world, walking around as if nothing were the matter with their mind, that suggest Scotch has already been recylced. They are, however, the same folks who find anything drier that Vin Santo or Muscato to be too much for them. 'Tis a pity these folks are allowed to reproduce. John - "NAD, Denon, Pioneer and so on are big, but still independents: they really have no choice but to make a better product. Or at least, try to." No choice, John? What salesperson have you been listening to? You must believe this year's models are all improved. "I ask fellow Old Dogs - has the industry always sought ways to ensnare music lovers? I am been naive and nostalgic in thinking I recall a time when record companies competed with each other to deliver a better-quality recording that anyone could play, and equipment makers did likewise, wanting to succeed by selling a better product at a competitive price...?" I am afraid that, yes, you are being naive. Better, of course, is in the ear of the beholder. But I would hold that for decades the music and audio industry has sought to make music more sellable and that has been their only goal. The move to LP was not heralded as an improvement in sound so much as an improvement in convenience; and, when viewed in the light of marketing a product, can be seen not as a move to make the listener more staisfied but to corner the market in record sales. And certainly the move to "Microgroove" records had nothing to do with fidelity but how to produce a record by using less vinyl. On and on the history of both industries show contempt and distain for the consumer, possibly none more blatant than "perfect sound forever". I was recently reduced to a slow simmer by the review/comparison, in one of the New Testaments of consumer protection, of high end table radios. The Bose Wavewhatever was rated as #1 though it scored the lowest on sound quality. It garnerd its recommendation because it is the most convenient to operate with a digital tuner (I, who own a tube tuner, hate digital tuners) with a gazillion presets. The Tivoli designed by Henry Kloss was ranked the least desirable because it lacked any presets due to its analogue tuner which was both objectively and subjectively better than any of the other radios in the group. The scoring gave the low rated Tivoli a clear adavantage as the best sounding by a wide margin. I ask what is the function of a radio if not to have the best tuner that is coupled to the best sound quality? But I see that it is the number of presets. I therefore want to abuse someone somewhere. I enjoy your eternal optimism and expectancy of fidelity to accuracy and fidelity to the moral concept of "for the good of all"; but if you move your Political Compass a bit more to the left and down you will see that big business has gone from "steal this record" to "how many copies of DSOTM do you own?".
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 16:47 GMT I'm sorry, I allowed the concept of ownership to be suggested in my last post. As any Garth Brooks hater knows, buying an "album" does not entitle you to OWN anything. You possess a small disc that has someone else's property attached to it. You have given a rather large sum of money, IMO, for a small piece of nothing. Somewhat like paying to go on a ride at Disneyland does not mean you own even a small portion of a Mickey Mouse corporation. Even the enjoyment of the music is being taken away from you by the attitude of the record industry.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1528 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 16:47 GMT if i could make digital copies of sacd and dvd-a then i would have bought less then half of the disks i own.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 16:48 GMT I'll get back on my meds now!
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1529 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 16:55 GMT jan would you quit with the posting at the same time as me!
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 17:07 GMT "technology nowadays being able to make an excact copy" of, I would suggest, a less than perfect item. But then that's my opinion.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 17:11 GMT Kegger - Be happy to if you'll just check with me first as to when I have something important to say.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1530 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 17:18 GMT yah jan allright i see how it is! oh yah jan by the way what is perfect and to whom? also if it sounds good to "you" would you want it?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2109 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 17:18 GMT Kegger, Jan, Thanks, guys. Points well taken. I suppose it would be asking a lot for the industry to say "C'mon everybody, trash all your CDs and replace them with SACDs so we can be sure you can't copy anything and we have lots of future sales". Probably the issue is anti-"piracy", not anti-legitimate back-ups, anti-copies-for-playing-in-cars etc. But I still wonder why they doubt their own ability to make a better mousetrap. That's what the rest of us have to do, to earn the cash to pay their lawyers, bean counters, and digital rights management consultants. I guess I just get a little weary at the people, and the state of the World. In all this I side with the musicians, really. I wonder what they think? I have just WATCHED the Berlin Phil playing Mahler 5 on the DTS DVD-V EMI 7243 4 90325 9 0. Brilliant. Really. I'd love some of the Old Dogs to see and hear that, both the Mahleriacs like 2c and John S and the "classical sucks" guys like Ben or the "not my bag" guys like Kegger. I can easily imagine normal people thinking "what prats" and switching off after 5 minutes. Try it though, just once, to the end. Ghia, if you're with us, I warmly recommend that one. Knowing the Alma story, the Adagietto will have you in tears The mismatch between the sound stage and the camera angles was disturbing, but I have to admit seeing that lot in action really added something. No-one could question their emotional involvement in the music. I wanted to stand up and cheer at the end. I feel a bit mean after all my downers on the Gus/Alma love story etc. I think our only other real music video at home is "The Last Waltz". I remember approving warmly of the visuals of the interactions between the performers. I felt the same about the Berlin Phil. I was actually surprised at the extend of the nods, winks, and smiles. Bejasus, can't they bl°°dy play. And Rattle... The whole thing commited to memory. Every ounce of involvement in every part of it, totally in control, in there amongst them, on their side, and, in the end, his sheer pleasure at the job THE MUSICIANS had done. What a guy. Sorry to butt in with that. I should take it over to "Discoveries" or somewhere. I was expecting to say "better with the TV off" but it would not be true, honestly. I still mean to get the DVD-A playable somehow. I do hope the Berlin Phil has taken to Rattle. He has clearly taken to them. Back to last posts. Jan, we are out of the same mould, I think. But the world's not so bad, really. Even if the music reaches only one in a hundred, it's still there. That's something!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2110 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 17:38 GMT I wrote that having missed the great exchange between Jan and Kegger, happening as I was writing, I guess. Jan, it's ownership of music that gets me. Composers and performers put themselves on the line every time they do what they do. Then the middle-men take the credit, to protect their bonuses and their company cars. I heard two buskers on my recent travels, playing for any change people could throw into their hats. One was a young girl playing a Bach sarabande from memeory, exquistely, on a viola, I think. Another was a fierce-looking guy playing bagpipes. Superbly. I should have asked them about copy protection. They seemed to want people to enjoy the music, and to be willing to be judged on what they could do, maybe expecting to get paid more if they pleased people more. The moral standing of anyone getting between them and their audience, saying "you can only listen to this if you give me a cut", is not so different from that of a pim_p, in my view. Where does that get me on the political compass...?! "The following words are not allowed on this discussion board: • pim_p Please revise your post to remove the words indicated above." That's OK then. Wish they'd ban "digital rights management", too, just for the sake of consistency.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1531 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 17:55 GMT john "I should have asked them about copy protection. They seemed to want people to enjoy the music, and to be willing to be judged on what they could do, maybe expecting to get paid more if they pleased people more. The moral standing of anyone getting between them and their audience, saying "you can only listen to this if you give me a cut", is not so different from that of a pim_p, in my view." yes ask them that now! then ask them again when they sign a contract and get paid by how many cd's they sell! see if the answer is the same!
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 691 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 20:49 GMT "In all this I side with the musicians, really. I wonder what they think?" Well John, here in Aus the musicians almost went on strike over the copying issue. I agree with Kegger, if everyone was allowed to make (quality) copies these days, we'd soon have no musicians to listen to. And the cd part of the problem is being addressed with duel disc and hybrid sacd. If you want to stick to your guns on your theories then you should aim them at the hardware manufacturers to allow 'copy protected' discs to play on any machine; car audio, portable audio etc. That to me is the only problem with CP at present.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 22:01 GMT Kegger - "oh yah jan by the way what is perfect and to whom?" Well, as I look back on all the posts that this thread has had I can only see two items that we can all agree are even close to perfect. The sound of Rick's children's laughter and the car we wish we (still) had. And, with all apologies to Rick and his children, at least one of those we do not all agree on. "also if it sounds good to "you" would you want it?" Ah, subjectivity thrown up in my face, eh Kegger? Well, the answer is, of course, not necessarily. I think most often a good hamburger is just the cure for what I am afflicted with. But, on the other hand, I would not turn down a prime ribeye steak grilled over pecan wood with a bit of Sangiovese reduction. And at other times I will gladly settle for a vegetarian minestrone with crusty bread. In the same spirit I think the Tivoli table radio is quite good and I have often thought how nice it would be to forget all this audiophile stuff and just listen to all my music through the simplest system possible. But then I fire up the Macs and Spicas and I'm convinced I want/need that. So I'm afraid that I could easily live with what is good but, like all but the monk and n-n (I'm not going to be the one to bring up that name again so soon), I want some of what I percieve as the luxuries of life. Speaking of luxuries of life; they are far too conveniently found in Dallas, a city which defines its people by where they live and eat and what they drive. I stopped in the local Linn dealer yesterday. (Here's a question for anyone but particularly for John who reads HiFi News on a regular basis [a periodical not allowed in Dallas], has Ivor Triefenbrun sold out? The latest Linn newsletter touts the affiliation with Aston Martin and there is no longer a piece of Linn product that can be purchased for less than $1000. Has Linn gone the way of the street artist who got the big contract?) They had the big Linn SACD player with the new DAC and Linn's top amplifiers on display. The speakers were top o' the line Wilson Benesch and smaller of same around the room. With a Linn demo disc I heard the most expensive multichannel system I had heard to date. I also stopped to see a friend at the McIntosh dealership. I listened to the large Mac system on display. In each case I heard reverberant sound from the rear and on the jazz combos I was placed within the audience with people clapping behind and to the sides of me. But, in each system of over $60k of equipment, as wonderful as the music sounded, I was not transported to anywhere other than an audio salon with speakers. I guess I missed something again, huh?
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1532 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 22:38 GMT wonderful stuff jan. and in the end it still comes back to ones taste! .............................. ASLO! some seek perfection,some seek really really good and some just settle for better then what they had! the ones that settle for "better then what they had" at least appreciate "it's better then what they had" so isn't that an upgrade? a move in the right direction? or should we be left with crap until it's perfect for everyone?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2112 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 03:35 GMT MR, Kegger, I take your point about royalties to musicians. But why can't they just say that, give us a breakdown of how much, to whom, etc..? Otherwise, how do we know anything at all goes to the performers, and it isn't a scam, like these "charity" e-mails we get by the bucketfull? My "conspiracy theory" also extends to HDCD, by the way: I suggest that copy protection is the main difference between that and regular CD. They just don't say so, giving a lot of nonsense, instead, about virtual bits or whatever it is. I suppose if I got a Denon x910 I could try HDCD, too. It is the "hidden agenda" of these technologies that makes me suspicious. All these things are touted for sound quality, with various degrees of truthfullness (lowest score with HDCD, I think), but there is a hidden hook. If it is is all legitimate, why does it need to be hidden.....? One more time, it bears repetition: "The Compact Disc: Perfect Sound That Lasts Forever". Do we really trust these guys? They place their hands on their hearts and speak of royalties to struggling musicians. Well, they would, wouldn't they? (Paraphrase of pull-quote from the Profumo scandal, if anyone is old enough to remember...) Jan, I have never had even remotely near the disposable income of Linn's target customer. Unfortunately. If they were ever a street artist, they had a limo parked discretely round the corner. I noted on another thread Linn's re-write of the history of their LP manufacturing venture, Linn Records. They stood out against CD and even made LPs to reassure their turntable customers and demonstrate the superiority of analogue, so they said. They now claim they made LPs because they were dissatisfied with the quality of other makers' LPs, and then turned finally and gratefully to the superior medium of CD. They've signed up some excellent musicians, I know that. Also gone the SACD route. The last review I read in HFN was of their "universal" player. I think the bottom line was it was massively over-priced, unless you felt good about paying for Linn to do its own technical development instead of buying drives etc. from Matsushita or whomever. That's quite a laudible aim, keeping independents going, but there are more deserving causes for charitable donations, in my view. Jan, fellow anarc_ist; any thoughts on copy protection...? After watching the Mahler I listened to some stuff in the pitch dark. Music is better with the lights off, no question. The video was still riveting stuff. BTW Struggling poor-but-honest chap with family to support desperately needs personal transport in the form of Aston Martin DB7 with Linn sound system. All donations gratefully received. He promises a small cut for the next street musician he comes across. Unless it's C&W. The following words are not allowed on this discussion board: anarc_ist Please revise your post to remove the words indicated above.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1533 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 04:45 GMT john "It is the "hidden agenda" of these technologies that makes me suspicious. All these things are touted for sound quality, with various degrees of truthfullness (lowest score with HDCD, I think), but there is a hidden hook. If it is is all legitimate, why does it need to be hidden.....? " how do you know there is a hidden agenda? maybe they just want to sell records and have you "buy" them. and what does it matter who or how much money is being spread to other's from the sales of media. if it's copied someone is still loosing a sale! are the record companies not entitled to make a sale? should they just give away the music and go out of buisness? should they make less money because "we" feel they should? as long as they make something new and it has the capability of being better than what we had should they not make it because we already have that title and don't want to buy it again? if you have a piece of music you like would you like to buy a better sounding version of it?
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 05:53 GMT I'll do more when I have Opus time. But, for now, my problem with Kegger's post is the cost of producing a CD is not much more than it was to produce an LP. Well under $1 per disc. And yet the price of an LP in 1985 was about $5-7 and the price of a CD was about $17. Depending on what and where you buy CD's the price has not dropped significantly as the manufacturers have recouped the R&D costs of getting plants up and running. The artist's I've heard talk about it say they get less than $1 per disc. And that is for new material, not reissues of stuff from several decades ago. That leaves a large junk that must go somewhere. If you want to use the ol' inflation like gas prices that's fine but still leaves a lot on the table. If they are still writing off the R&D of new plants and technology maybe I should start buying my CD's from Canada.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1534 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 06:03 GMT hey if you want to say their overpriced i have no problem with that. they probably are. but if noone could copy them then more would be sold instead of copied then maybe the price can come down. but if 50% of the cd's that are sold are copied where does that leave the record companies. it's pretty interesting cd's,sacd's and dvd-a's are about the same price! wouldn't you think the hi rez formats would be more? are they not more because you can't copy them? so the music industry gets all the money from their sales. just a thought!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2116 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 06:19 GMT Kegger, Peace. I have no wish to tread on your toes, or My Rantz's. I seem to be in a minority on this, and it could be just me, but I have problems with music as just another commodity to be bought and sold. And, even if I ignore that nagging anxiety, if the industry could just be clear about what they are offering for sale, I'd sleep more soundly. One "hidden agenda" is copy protection, no question. I wonder how many people have upgraded to HDCD or SACD and are aware they've lost something in the process? I personally have never copied anything, except to make analogue audio cassettes, once, to play in cars. It was tedious. Today I am happy to buy the original disc, packaging, presentation, etc., but I am still very price conscious. The problem is going to be network file transfer, I can see that. "how do you know there is a hidden agenda?" As I said, how many ads do you see saying "upgrade to this format so we can be sure you cannot copy the files"? "maybe they just want to sell records and have you "buy" them". That's OK. Of course. If it is that simple. "if it's copied someone is still loosing a sale!" Not so. Copying can make the music better known. If it is any good, it can increase sales of the genuine article. People copy things because they want to listen and try things out, or give copies to friends. They would be less likely to do that if they had to pay the premium price every time. If I could send you Mahler 5, you might just give it a go, and listen; I doubt if you'll want to spend $20 on it, though. If you liked the bit I sent, just out of friendship, you might go and buy the whole disc, or a similar one. If you didn't like it, you'd have learned something, and wouldn't waste your money. It seems to me that's what music is all about. This is going on all the time, now, with low-res audio files. I'd join 'em if I could put up with low-res. "are the record companies not entitled to make a sale?" Of course. But the buyer is also entitled to know what he's buying. And buying into. "should they just give away the music and go out of buisness?" No, of course not. "should they make less money because "we" feel they should?" No, of course not, neither. The question is, does the buyer know what he's getting for his money? The whole picture? "as long as they make something new and it has the capability of being better than what we had should they not make it because we already have that title and don't want to buy it again?" No. But they could try making things to last, and see if there's any market value in that really being true, not just in fooling people with short memories. Again "perfect sound that lasts forever". Where's the catch? Answer: all the people who trashed their LP collections to "upgrade" to a lower-quality medium, believing it, incorrectly, to offer better sound. We've seen lots of cases, here: Rick, Larry, etc. etc. These are intelligent guys. We were duped. There's something wrong in that. "if you have a piece of music you like would you like to buy a better sounding version of it?" Yes, that's exactly what I do. And I enjoy it, and feel I get my money's worth. But I look for the cons, too. And 20 years of the CD ruling everything is good grounds for being suspicious of the power of marketing over truly delivering a better product. Most real producers of anything just have to try and get it right: prosper if they do; fail if they don't. Big companies can go on doing that, chances are that's the way they got big, or they can try to control markets to their own advantage, to the exclusion of the small guy. A useful trick in market control is to keep the punter in the dark. I don't think we disagree on much, really, Kegger. Maybe I just worry too much. I am sure I would take a more relaxed view from the driving seat of a paid-for DB7. With a Linn system. And mounted cannon, as I think MR said. Oh yes, the other point is the whole marketing hype causes massively well-informed and clever guys like Jan to pull up the drawbridge and dismiss things like multichannel sound as just another pointless gimmick. Personally, I think he's missing something. But his case "don't believe a word of what they say" is very strong. The industry has something new and worthwhile in hi-res mulchannel recording. They are shooting themselves in the foot by muddying the issue, attempting to control markets that do not yet exist. My heart was won by that girl busking on the viola. She was saying "listen; isn't this beautiful?" She seemed to want no reward except the pleasure she gave, and whatever money people chose freely to give. Of course, I passed by, being in hurry, to visit a record shop, and make it back to the car before the meter expired. As before, I am cornered. Once a young romantic, now a middle-aged cynic. Let's listen to the music, guys. Jan, you have a way with words - this making any sense, or should I just get some sleep? Thanks, Kegger. Thanks, My Rantz. I mean that. It is a pleasure to be your target. I learn some things here!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2117 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 06:25 GMT I am out of synch again. Quick response: "but if 50% of the cd's that are sold are copied where does that leave the record companies." Having to make something people wish to buy, in order to survive. I can't shed tears over that. Seems to me that's how the world works.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 693 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 06:32 GMT Yes John, please get some sleep - peaceful sleep. Too many cities in too little time. There is no conspiracy. There is only capitalism and because it is the lesser of two weevils it has to be the road on which I travel. Copy Protection labels stand out like sore thumbs on all the cp cd's I've seen. It does not seem hidden. As for the musicians - I guess poor old Sir Elton, Sir Paul, and Sir Mick etc have all been taken for a ride. Those poor bast&$ds! It's all fun you old dog:-)
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1535 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 06:49 GMT as you well know by now john i mean no ill intent just trying to represent the other side of the coin. mainly trying to act as the record companies aka your soundingboard. this way when you state something i'm kinda giving you someone or something to answer your questions and premote others. ................................ do i think the record companies are inocent in all this? no! ................................. but i also don't believe they are hiding the fact that copy protection is their nor do i think they should tell us either. to me it's their perogative. ..................................... yes i do think you are being a little to paranoid. but at the same point it's much better then being nieve and turning into a lemming or wildabeast. .......................................... I just believe it is there right to do with what they sell whatever they want. who am i to tell them they can't protect their stuff from being copied? ..................................... like i said before i may feel the same way as you if it wasn't for the fact i see copying everyday by so many people that sometimes it makes me wonder how video game companies or software companies or music companies stay in buisness. ........................................ their's lots of things i like enough to buy it. but if i can get it for free! you know which route i'm going?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2119 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 08:02 GMT Thanks, guys. Will get some sleep. Then listen to some music, and try and have a normal weekend. I've still got all those LPs to look forward to. I've reconnected my pre-amp, with its phono input, using the Tape 1 output to the receiver. That way I match the impedances and get only one volume control (on the receiver). There's always a tweak or two available, even to the world-weary old dog. I'll tell you who we should be paying royalties to, and that's J. Vigne! No Phono inputs in most new receivers... how to.... You good fellows should try vinyl, if I may say so, with all respect. Turntables are cheap compared with DVD-players, and LPs knock the socks off CDs. "And for people who like dragging rocks through vinyl furrows, we are a surprisingly well acquainted with the modern PC." J.V. just pours out quotes. Wonder of anyone has connected a Macintosh to a McIntosh. Ghia, you still here?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2120 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 08:13 GMT Yes, always choose the lesser of two weevils. Watched a dire movie last night, it had Galadriel in New Mexico in the 1880s in come complicated plot with one of the Men in Black and people being strung up. Fell asleep. Woke up to see Mr Sony and Mr Philips gloating over my dawning interest in SACD, egged on by my friends Kegger and my Rantz. Give me music any time. I didn't know it ever snowed in New Mexico. Must have been an early warning sign of global warming. Really must stop rambling. I could go on like this for....
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1536 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 08:26 GMT yo john give that animals a listen and let me know what you think of "pigs three different ones" i'm very interested in what you think!
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 487 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 13:53 GMT Hi John, Again welcome back. I hope your trip was a success. I have to go with Rantz and Kegger on the conspiracy theory.......... It is and always was good old fashioned capitalism. I work and live in that world 55 hours a week. It's all about the money. As far as giving up my LP collection, that was a matter of choice, rather than being duped. I disliked CD the first time I heard it. It sounded cold, harsh, sterile, and lifeless. I guarantee you all had a CD player before I did. I finally parted with my vinyl and turntable 1990-1991. I did so because of too many moves. By then the second and third generation CD players came along. These were a vast improvement over the first players. Was or is the CD perfect/forever? Of course not. What's perfect? Do I wish I still had my LP's? Yes I do. But to start a new LP collection today I think would border on true insanity........after all for better or worse we live in a digital world, and THAT is not going to change. How we choose to change individually, is up to us. It's always been that. New or old, stereo or multichannel, tubes or solid state, LP or CD, SACD or DVD-A, subwoofer or not. I say keep your mind and EARS open and keep learning. Be willing to share info and tweaks with others. I think that's why this is my favorite thread. I have learned more here, than 34 years of experimenting and trial and error. Just keep an open mind to all ideas (new and old). Because what works-works, and what is-is. Cheers to all the "OD's"! PS- John the only question I have been dying to ask and please don't take it the wrong way: Out of the box interconnects??? Please say it isn't so John! (LOL)
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2122 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 16:39 GMT Rick, Thank you. I agree with all you say. I had six trips, really, if you count two different locations in Canada and also Germany. It was the second in Germany where I happened on the LP shop... It all went well, thanks. If any old dogs are ever in former GDR, Weimar area (Thuringia) then I'll divulge the location of the shop, off-line. But I suspect the former eastern bloc has lots of surplus LPs; everyone there is just discovering CD, probably. I stopped listening to my LPs for years, but I never throw anything away, despite all the moves. I am in favour of capitalism. I just don't think it has really been tried yet. Adam Smith railed about people who control markets for their own advantage. I rather think he would have understood my point. I actually think it makes sense to re-invest in vinyl. But I understand. I think you wil be surprised at how good it is. Kegger, will listen to "Animals" soon. I've read the sleeve, and see the relevance already! Seems to me you could really get into LP. Take a look for example at http://www.simplyvinyl.com/ More later. All the best. PS "But to start a new LP collection today I think would border on true insanity........" Well, it's all relative. There are much worse insanities around. "after all for better or worse we live in a digital world, and THAT is not going to change" No, actually, the world itself is analogue (narrowly avoids philosophical ramble). Digital encoding gives people more control over their representations of it (fails). Will reply on cables. I have a snap of the back of my receiver, just to show I waste money on wire, too.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 16:50 GMT As my position on the Political Compass slides ever more to the left I find the last few posts interesting. "but if 50% of the cd's that are sold are copied where does that leave the record companies." My answer to that would be - still stinking rich. I am reminded of one of our Liberal multi-millionaire's (and I'm sorry I can't remember who) position on tax cuts that predominantly favor the rich (not trying to start anything here, Rick, just stating my position). If someone made one million dollars when Bill Clinton was in office they fell into a 35% tax bracket. That took out (assuming, as Mr. Bush is now telling his audiences, they didn't get those good tax lawyers [as opposed to those bad trial lawyers that run up the cost of everything] to find loopholes so they paid less) approximately $350,000 in taxes from their earnings. Poor folks, that only left them with $650,000 to live on. Hardly enough to scrape by. If 50% of discs were copied who do you think would be the first to feel the effects? The executive or the worker? This is not a forum for extended political discourse and I will not make it into that. I will leave this topic with two thoughts. First, it would appear, from recent news reports, that executives who lay off workers get higher bonuses and salaries than those who do not. This on top of salaries that have risen over the past three decades from 7 times the average worker's wages to now being 437 times the average. Second, I have a problem with Capitalism when it becomes Free Trade markets that will sort out the world's economy. And I am not opposed to Free Trade, it can improve the lot of many in the world. But when Free Trade becomes exploitation of resources and manipulation of prices then I have a problem. There are reasons people hate the W.T.O. For those with some A-N-A-R-C-H-Y (can't put that on this forum) in your blood, try this: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=17746 Crapinahat! Where are those pills? To the point of the music, John, there is no conspiracy. It can't be a conspiracy when they do it in front of you. Until the Dawn of The Compact Disc, when record executives crawled out of the murk and muck, when you purchased a piece of polyvinylchloride with an artist's intellectual property embedded within or upon it, the consumer was allowed to make at the very least, a copy of that material for your own personal use. Granted, few people had the ability to copy an LP to an LP but the consumer had the ability to make what amounted to a very good approximation of that material on several different devices. When the CD came along that was removed from the public's options and, particularly if you thought CD's were perfect, you could no longer make a copy that allowed the same performance and convenience of the original. It took 15 years for CD recorders to become reality. Just in time for a format change that allows, once again, no copies that can equal, or come close, to the original. So, if I want to make a back up copy of a SACD, I cannot. My only option in case my original gets damaged, or I want to have one in my car and in my home, is to buy a new disc. I have moved past "steal this disc" but I have not progressed to the point where I feel I owe my income to a manufacturer who makes a product that denies me rights I previously enjoyed. The only reason HD-DVD recorders are not on the market in a fashion that would allow me to make a facsimile copy of a HDTV program is the movie industry doesn't want me to have the ability to make a copy of a movie that is better quality than what they want to sell me on DVD. And to make that copy I would have to pay another industry to supply the source material. Piracy should be stopped. My rights should be protected. "after all for better or worse we live in a digital world, and THAT is not going to change. How we choose to change individually, is up to us. It's always been that. New or old, stereo or multichannel, tubes or solid state, LP or CD, SACD or DVD-A, subwoofer or not." It is true how we change is up to each individual. Not up to a corporation. We are at least fortunate to live in a time of progress that offers the hope of making our lives better in all respects. And audio is a luxury, one that our dear departed comrade Larry realized is often out of the reach of many. But this luxury is a large money maker for several industries. When those industries start making decisions based on what is expedient for them as opposed to what is best for me (MicroGroove records, anyone?) I feel my interests are being ignored. I am not for pushing back technology and I understand the economics of industry fairly well for a Theatre Major, but, I see a disconnect between what is good for industry and what is good for the consumer. While a large portion of the American public cries out against government encroaching on their lives they willingly allow corporate America to lead them around by the schnoss.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1537 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 17:14 GMT Jan I truly understand what your saying and agree with some of it. And who do I trust to make the proper choices for me as regards to how audio is packaged is real and very important. I can only hope as technology improves so does my audio source. but this I stand by! "Like I said before I may feel the same way as you if it wasn't for the fact I see copying everyday by so many people that sometimes it makes me wonder how video game companies or software companies or music companies stay in buisness." And to me if their is no control over copying it will get way out of hand. I believe if the copying is kept to a minumum then the price I pay for the material should and will come down.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1538 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 17:22 GMT copying is so widespread and such a problem that some people will buy media overseas from countries that have no copy protection laws. that tells me something! it tells me copy protection is legit! I know people who have huge cd collections and haven't bought a single disk. or computer people that have 10 computers with different operating systems and many pieces of software on there systems that have never purchased any of it.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1539 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 17:23 GMT I see it everyday that is why i feel the way i do!
SACDude Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 17:23 GMT My, what a Brave New World you chaps present! I can't help wondering, as I sit here gazing at the glitter that Corporate America has provided me in the guise of "hi-fi", if those of us who can afford so-called "decent" stereo gear feel privileged - or guilty - in having spent thousands of dollars to hear the kind of sound that perhaps 90% of the world has never heard. As a retired teacher, I have spent a lifetime "reaching out" to young people, hoping that they learn lessons of civility before that is crushed out of them in the process of "making a living." And bowing to Corporate America. I must admit that I'm afraid of the kind of scare tactics being used by the current Administration. But I'm equally as concerned about the economic scare tactics used by the likes of Enron and their pals. If you look closely, you will see a brotherhood: the political power base, and the corporate executive offices. Mr. Vigne is quite prescient when he talks of the dichotomy that is public perception of power in politics and the corporate string-pullers. But is his far-sightedness the genius of a few, or the out-fall of frustration by the many, who have given up on dreams? I find in this forum the stuff of deep thought, with rather refreshing bouts of down-sliding into comic relief. What a blessing, this! But ah - Mr. Barnes has, in a few simple words, stabbed the revolving debate in the heart. "It's the money." Do I hear a "Yep" from Mr. Kegger here? Aha! Thought so. Politics, corporations, power. Money. When LP sales flagged, the CD was born. It worked, insofar as "money" was concerned. The listener be damned! When CDs were too-often copied and pirated, the money-men hastened away to the laboratories in search of Montezuma's gold - again. No conspiracy here, Mr. John A. - just a procedure by which to limit the loss of income. Look to China, if you doubt the wisdom of their SACD ventures - surely you have read that more pirated CDs and DVDs than legitimate products are sold in Asia. I may not agree with the anti-piracy concept, but I understand it. Money. Oh, yes, lest I forget a minor but interesting point brought out much earlier by Mr. John A. - yes,sir, it does, indeed, snow in New Mexico. In fact, northeast of Taos, there is a fine ski area called "AngelFire." Been there, done that, as they say. And Santa Fe, at Christmas time, is often magical with a covering of several snow-inches. Now, I feel better - sort of like a successful purging of digested foodstuffs? Harrummphhh!!! Thank you for reading.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New York USA Post Number: 488 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 17:25 GMT Jan, Super post. No problem with stating your opinion, ever, with me, political or otherwise. I would be the first to defend your right to state it. Heck, you may just find you have more in common with a "moderate" Republican than you think. (LOL!)
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1540 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 17:31 GMT sacdude you express my thoghts and sayings to a tee! so here's to you! .....................Y E P.....................
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 2123 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 18:12 GMT I would just like to register a round of applause for that rant from Jan. A tour-de force. I agree on all points. I am puzzled that I also think I agree with everyone else. Thanks for the geography and support, SACDude! One issue: Kegger "I believe if the copying is kept to a minumum then the price I pay for the material should and will come down." I believe it will go up. That is because they know they can charge what they like. Copy and distribute: share and enjoy. Then they'll have to produce something you WANT to buy, not HAVE to. Is that what the free market is supposed to be about......? [And please, just to fan the flames, try understand how a chunk of the world has no problem with "corporate" in "corporate America" ... just the other part.... I, personally, am not with them. I must make that clear. I would go and live in the rural Pennsylvania of Copland's "Appalachian Spring" any time. Is it still there ...? ]
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1541 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 19:17 GMT well john I think that's the one area where we disagree. I don't think people copy because they don't feel the product is worth buying. I think they copy simply because they "can"! In otherwords why buy it when I can get it for free!
SACDude Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 21:47 GMT Yes! Kegger. We just had house guests - a couple whose income is more than sufficient to allow them to buy whatever "tunes" they might want. But they have made it a sort-of "hobby" to get as many CDs or DVDs as they can - FREE! Yes, it is because they can, not because they have to do so. Wise thoughts, Kegger, and true. I have seen it many times. And may I humbly add one point: I have friends who know more about the electronics "guts" of systems than I will ever understand. Some of them are already working on a way to bypass the copyright blockades of SACD - and they say they will be able to post online within a month free methods of doing so. So - there goes the Sony anti-pirating crusade - I guess. Not knowing what the heck they're talking about, I can only shake my head and say: "Well, OK, you've made another case for the dump-the-code people." I sigh here, because the entire universe of recorded sound is too complex for my mind to understand. Wouldn't it be nice if everybody just had good systems, and fine hardware and software - and the world was safe for peace and order? Then, again, I might as well wish for gold-plated dishes and a Ferrari in every garage. Yep - to quote Mr. Kegger. thanks for reading.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 23:20 GMT "And to me if their is no control over copying it will get way out of hand." Yes, it will. I remember when, in the early days of my audio sales career (?), the knock on Sony and their Japanese brethern was they did nothing but copy what America had created. Then Japan started to complain that Korea was copying what they did. Then Korea started saying Tiawan was ripping off their technology. Then Tiawan accused China of taking what wasn't rightfully theirs. Next China is competeing with India. And then India ... ? I don't believe that was the intention of trickle down economics. But in each case the rich wanted to stay that way at the cost of someone else. Kegger, you are correct that piracy must be stopped but to create a product is to have it copied. That is unfortunately the way of Globalization. Why, my beloved Italy is fighting to have the name Parmessan removed from any cheese product that does not originate in Parma, Italy. (This is long standing tradition among region proud Italians.) And if you have never had Parmessano-Reggianno you cannot understand that what Kraft does is the most vile form of piracy. (If you have an Italian deli anywhere close go buy a chunk of Parmessanno-Regianno, I promise you will be transported.) But the attitude I see today is, quite often, not to work to make a better product or, possibly, work to make a situation where someone will be more honest, but, instead, to eliminate what you have lost control over. "I believe if the copying is kept to a minumum then the price I pay for the material should and will come down." Ah, Grasshopper, when will you learn; the cost is always higher! "I can't help wondering, as I sit here gazing at the glitter that Corporate America has provided me in the guise of "hi-fi", if those of us who can afford so-called "decent" stereo gear feel privileged - or guilty - in having spent thousands of dollars to hear the kind of sound that perhaps 90% of the world has never heard." "Then they'll have to produce something you WANT to buy, not HAVE to." I see these two going together because it doesn't take much to see those for whom "WANT" and "NEED" are the same thing. (But then I live in Dallas.) I have admitted as much in my post of Friday, 6:01PM. The marketing mavens have long used "you have earned it" or "you deserve it" to stoke up whatever 2% of the public they are aiming for. "If you look closely, you will see a brotherhood: the political power base, and the corporate executive offices." Eliminate "and the", please. http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Military-industrial_complex "far-sightedness the genius of a few, or the out-fall of frustration by the many, who have given up on dreams?" Genius - not here, sir. Frustration - getting there. given up - not likely. "But ah - Mr. Barnes has, in a few simple words, stabbed the revolving debate in the heart. "It's the money." Do I hear a "Yep" from Mr. Kegger here? Aha! Thought so. Politics, corporations, power. Money" Why did it take a crook to teach my generation to follow the money? Why did so many of my generation then get led around by the money? " don't think people copy because they don't feel the product is worth buying. I think they copy simply because they "can"!" George Carlin said, years ago, "If you leave a left nostril inhaler out too long someone will steal it." Probably true, but, if you made an inhaler that was equally distributed among everyone would anyone then see the value of stealing it? "And Santa Fe, at Christmas time, is often magical with a covering of several snow-inches." " ... a chunk of the world has no problem with "corporate" in "corporate America" ... just the other part.... I, personally, am not with them. I must make that clear. I would go and live in the rural Pennsylvania of Copland's "Appalachian Spring" any time. Is it still there ...? ]" Isn't Corporate America the only corporate there is. We have brought democracy to the rest of the world. If this experiment should succeed, you can bet there will be a KFC in Falluja. A favorite memory is the first time I saw Santa Fe. Christmas Eve as we pulled over the last hill before entering Santa Fe and the snow began to fall. The town below us was lit with candles and luminarias. A Christmas card opening in front of us. John, of course that bit of rural Pennsylvania is still there. Today it's a battleground state. Red or blue? Polls up or down? Well, it can exist in your mind whenever you play the music, John.
KEGGER Gold Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 1542 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 00:13 GMT alright i think just about everyone but ghia was in on that topic. and it seemed to get covered pretty darn well. what do we have next? ........................................... jan any thoughts on "sounds" of certain capacitors? i've recently installed some sprague orange drops in the output stage of my amp that goes to the mids and highs. and right now i want to do nothing but listen to the music! those caps seem to bring it alltogther it was real close before and i think the caps added just the right stuff to top it off. "or subtracted" but of course i've got some pio's coming and will test those to.
Ghia Cabriolet Silver Member Username: Ghiacabriolet NC Post Number: 391 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 00:56 GMT Hello All! Looks like it's been busy here. Will have to catch up soon. For now, popping in for some advise from the Mac gurus. I received the new MA6200. It arrived intact and is beautiful. Plugged it in for the first time tonight and no sound. I've tried both the NAD and Denon players in both tape monitors and the Aux1 monitor and have tried 2 of the 3 speaker outputs. Nothing. Everything powers on, all lights come on depending on the input I've selected. Just no sound. Any ideas?

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