Mid-size sedan trunk box for 18"
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 472 Registered: Oct-10 | If you can't fit an 18" in a square box in your mid-size sedan trunk with port & sub firing into the cabin & sealed off (pretty much) than try using angles. I found atleast 6 cubes NET, up from 4 cubes NET with a square box. The baffle is angled, and it's slanted to fit into the cabin opening of my Alero, which isn't square, but I can make use of the angles. I'm pretty sure the Grand Prix and Bonneville are like this. It sits flush with the back seat, but you can't play the sub with the back seat up. The baffle length, on its angular dimension, is exactly 18.5" - the outer dimension of many 18" subs. It would look pretty cool with the seat flipped down, nice & flush. This one is obviously 2 3" ports, so with 6 cubes NET it's 15" of port area per cube. 2 ports should have a lower tuning than 1.  |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 473 Registered: Oct-10 | ... and I think that's what I'm going to do, either with my 05 RE XXX, ZCON, SS XXX, LMS Ultra, ETC... |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 475 Registered: Oct-10 | .......................  |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 476 Registered: Oct-10 | ....................... |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 478 Registered: Oct-10 | .........................     I measured roughly 6 cubic feet after displacements @ 30-33 Hz with 15" of port area per cubic foot. A long port at 30-33". The bad news... 38" won't fit through my door *facepalm*. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 479 Registered: Oct-10 | Does anyone know of a program I can use to measure the cubes of that thing? It's such an odd shape! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 505 Registered: May-09 | I believe autodesk inventor can do that but I think you should first select the speaker then get the volumes and based on that seek to fit your needs somehow, in other words do the math last. The first enclosure can be calculated manually without too much effort. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 480 Registered: Oct-10 | I calculated as separate shapes, and rounded the numbers. Thing is, most 18's won't be good below 6 cubes, and there only being 6 cubes anyways (wouldn't want to tune below 30 Hz), it wouldn't quite matter as much to buy the sub first, rather than model subs in 6 cu.ft. @ 30-33 Hz. I'd be happy with any Fi, SSA, DD 18" ETC in that box. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 507 Registered: May-09 | The TC LMS ultra is out of reach? or which is your first choice for sub and type of enclosure just to see how far off 6 cuft it gets. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 482 Registered: Oct-10 | I'll drop $1000 on a sub because I'm that stupid or as I like to term it "dedicated". I have no bills and I'm in college. I'm going to end up selling my drums to buy components & deadening. Looking at the Ultra, Warden, GZPW, SS XXX, ZCON, powered by a used AQ 2200 + 1 (deep cycle) battery (+stock if not dedicated) + big 3, upgrading later to a larger alt + more batts + 5-10k. I saw a SS XXX 15 for $450/used once (Ontario/Canada). I almost bought it, but I bought the RE XXX shortly before. The box is to scale BTW, so it'd be that one. I'd try to get Dustin to build 80% of it, as 38" x 38" wouldn't even fit through the door - I'd have to build 20% of it inside the car. The SS XXX has different specs on their site and in the manuals, so I emailed SS about it, no reply. Vastly different specs. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 509 Registered: May-09 |  Note that this is an SPL plot not a relative gain, the high frequency decay in gain is due to coil inductance and is normal, WinISD ignores this and for good reason mids take over at 60-70Hz TC Epic 12" 2 cuft@25Hz F3=23.89 2x Vent: Dv = 4, in Lv = 51,6 in TC Sounds LMS ULTRA 18" 5cuft@25Hz F3=26,02 2x Vent: Dv = 6, in Lv = 44,59 in I never cease to be amazed modeling this things, as one can see the SPL advantage of the 18" is over 40Hz!. Very frustrating outcome. As far as Sq goes the LMS wins of course with much lower group delay and of course one can't see here but BL(x) is cuasi linear on the LMS. Disclosing T/S for you to review if they are correct: Name: TC Sounds LMS ULTRA 18" Type: Standard one-way driver Company: TC Sounds Inc. No. of Drivers = 1 Fs = 20,5 Hz Qms = 7,6 Vas = 8,5 cu.ft Cms = 0,0206 in/lb Mms = 18,07 oz Rms = 19,15 lb/s Xmax = 38,8 mm Xmech = 2,291 in P-Dia = 15,39 in Sd = 1200 sq.cm P-Vd = 0,164 cu.ft Qes = 0,34 Re = 3,78 ohms Le = 2,8 mH Z = 4, ohms BL = 27,08 Tm Pe = 2000 watts Qts = 0,33 no = 0,588 % 1-W SPL = 89,7 dB 2.83-V SPL = 93,1 dB Name: TC Sounds Epic 10" Type: Standard one-way driver Company: TC Sounds Inc. No. of Drivers = 1 Fs = 24,3 Hz Qms = 7,5 Vas = 1,75 cu.ft Cms = 0,0238 in/lb Mms = 11,13 oz Rms = 14,17 lb/s Xmax = 22,9 mm Xmech = 1,352 in P-Dia = 10, in Sd = 506,7 sq.cm P-Vd = 0,041 cu.ft Qes = 0,33 Re = 3,72 ohms Le = 3,3 mH Z = 4, ohms BL = 23,31 Tm Pe = 500, watts Qts = 0,31 no = 0,208 % 1-W SPL = 85,32 dB 2.83-V SPL = 85,2 dB |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 483 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks, but I don't quite understand the "over 40 Hz". Looks like a 35 Hz peak, which in-car, should be normal at 25 Hz. If not representing gain, than I can see the peak being different of course. I never cared for anything over 40 Hz, it becomes a lot less violent and more annoying lol. Try my box - 6 cuft @ 30-33 Hz, port area 90" (2 slot ports) with the ZCON 18? Looks like such a beast and would be a good match to the 2200. Would only buy an 18". Might as well make the most of the space. LMS Ultra is a dream sub, but if it won't get loud on 2200 watts than there's nary a point in buying it. I want the bass to be nuts this time, maybe 20% SQ. Also DD 99Z, didn't list cuz it's like 3 grand. I suppose I want a 2200 & 18 for daily and like 16k burps for comps, something outrageous like that for short term burps/demos. DC Level 6.... prototype still? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 512 Registered: May-09 | LH, what I am talking about is where both curves intersect (at 40Hz) and it means that the dB advantage over the 12" is at higher than 40 Hz which is worthless. So that sub is for SQ, nothing more. Yes I will try the ZCON. And damn it, the Orange is the LMS and the Yellow is the Epic. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 516 Registered: May-09 | Ok found a little while to review the ZCON, I believe the T/S are experimental since they don't match up (like Qts>Qes) The following is an SPL plot, the sub alone reaches nearly130dB.  SSA ZCON 18" 6.0cuft@33Hz F3=32.46Hz 1x Vent Dv = 6, in Lv = 6,129 in Also cute small vent but this sub dies off early at 32Hz, that also means that almost all the energy it puts out is very audible, a really LOUD sub indeed. T/S params (not even units listed!) * D1 / D2 * FS: 32 / 31.2 * DCR: .7/coil / 1.4/coil * QMS: 7.59 / 7.76 * QES: 0.31 / 0.31 * QTS: 0.32 / 0.32 * MMS: 323 / 338 * SD: 1210 / 1210 * VAS: 139.3 / 139.3 * SPL: 94.9 / 94.5 * BL: 17.74 / 25.2 * XMAX: 29 / 29 * POWER: 2250w RMS |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 485 Registered: Oct-10 | I thought the yellow was the LMS - seemed like it'd be louder (not relative anyways) than the Epic 12. The Epic 12 is... uh, Epic. 94.9 dB sensitive - that's higher than the N2 BTL 18 - it must get loud if that's near the true guesstimate. I'm not even sure if I want a sub where all of its energy is transmuted into sound. I liked my XXX's neutrality, it didn't have a signature to it. I switched it out for an APX and it was a dead sound without tonal accuracy. It wasn't nearly as enjoyable. It hit the lows slightly better though. Cone was stiff as hell, I could stand on it. 1500W RMS my arsenal! I was pretty much shooting for the best sub of all time that would be loudest on its RMS power, meaning a SS XXX on 7k (if that's the RMS - pretty sure it's like 8k daily for the 18) or LMS 18 on 5k (it used to be 5k RMS now it's 2k?) ETC. Big sub, big power. I really don't know if a sub on 2k could be louder than a sub on 7k if the efficiency is way different - I doubt it. The ZCON drops hard even before tune lol. I try not to listen to stuff with below 30 Hz output (besides like Jeezys' Put On, which I think the lowest note is 27 Hz). I can't hear below 22-23 Hz sine wave, I mean I can, but at 22-23 Hz you can still hear a bit of a frapping if you know what I mean. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 518 Registered: May-09 | SPL = efficiency +20*log10(pe) pe= watts, so watts help less and less as you go up. Also as you can see efficiency is only a first constant step but can literally mean thousands of watts way up. I think you will end up needing something like 3 of these...lol: http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm The BTL could be worth a try not because top efficiency but to see if it can hit lower notes, Also modeling your RE could show what you are after, and in the light of TCs EPIC performance reviewing all their series would be worth a try, I guess 2 15" would overtake 1 18".. the plots you see are from bass box pro6.0 I will hold on to it for a while, very neat. But most sophisticated models are run in electrical design softwares like mathcad, spice and such, take a look at a quick shot at this, very interesting: http://users.on.net/~isaacmcn/audio/spice/spice.htm |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 487 Registered: Oct-10 | I could fit two but don't get me started! haha "the rotary woofer has enough acoustic output to move a open door back and forth .5†between 1 and 5 Hz! It has enough output to find resonance frequencies of walls and ceilings in a room. It requires no equalization to achieve flat response to below 1 Hz." Amplifier Requirement 200 watts @ 8 ohms Frequency response 1Hz â€" 30Hz +/- 4dB Maximum acoustic output >110dB between 0 and 30Hz. Distortion typically 3% or less between 1 and 30Hz @90dB Warranty â€" 3 years parts and labor *drool* $12900 No thanks. Can't fit 2 15's in the trunk. I asked a metal worker if he'd cut out the trunk opening so I could fit 21 x 38 x 38 but he said it would screw up everything because it's a uni-body, he wouldn't touch it, said he'd get sued. I told him why I wanted it done, and he said build around the opening, and I said you don't understand lol. Wouldn't even talk about bracing it before cutting it, just said there was no way and no one would consider it. That info is way over my head. I bet that 18" box would be louder than 2 12's cuz what 12's could handle the power that a single SS XXX can? Exactly. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 524 Registered: May-09 | Ahh well... something was telling me you wouldn't go for the Eminents! ..not before Vegas anyways. I tried several 18"s and all behave pretty much the same, namely AA Mahem, Signature, BTL N218, and the previous ones all at 6cuft@28Hz so basically one curve for all of them (the green curve):  And then on blue: 3x TCs 12" epics: 6cuft@25Hz F3 = 16Hz!!! <- YES! 3x Vent: Dv = 4, in Lv = 19,16 in At 2200W the drivers hit Xmax@14Hz so no problems there, also vent airspeed is within limits so no noise from them. Just set the subsonic at 15Hz. You would deal with a 1.33 ohm load so remains to be seen what the AQ can put out, the 3 TCs can take 2200 without a problem. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 488 Registered: Oct-10 | Holy cow. There should be a stickied thread just to convey the awesomeness of the Epics! Could fit 2 12's but probably barely. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 525 Registered: May-09 | Fact check may claims if possible, for winisd use the beta version below since the alpha has too many bugs and is harder to use: http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?download=winisd Just click, utilities >db maintenance and click new, enter the sub model and T/S params and OK, then goto file>new proyect select driver and box type and you are all set, click on the tabs to set number of drivers, Vb,Fb and vent area to see what it gives, if you create many designs curves will overlap so you can compare. I go a little careless because I guess I don't have proper enclosure data and I am a little modeling dizzy now, The TC drivers on my last plot are for 3 10"s despite my claims ( T/S for the TC on my post 509 on this thread ), so if you asked me 3 months ago if that was possible a big laugh would have been my reply.. If results are real can you fit 3 10"??? .. again 3 10" seems laughable to perform that well. I agree. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina Post Number: 14544 Registered: Dec-03 | you could use a trapazoidal box like that, or do like I did with a pair of 12" 4th order subs for a guy once, and build a parallelogram box, by basically taking a typical rectangular box, and pushing it forward (or back) so everything is angled. This gives you a reduced height box that is slightly enlongated to allow for larger diameter subs which would otherwise not fit due to their "height" standing upright. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 489 Registered: Oct-10 | Height is 16.5" so no problem for 12's. I've never done a 4th order, but that interests me. Passband 20-60 Hz with 0dB gain would be great (-3dB @ 17 & 63 Hz), maybe even a dip around 40 Hz for a smooth response. I don't know how to design a 4th obp. |
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Silver Member Username: Teamdeboy1971OPTIDRIVE LN. La F..., TN Major Bass P... Post Number: 626 Registered: Nov-06 | hey I have a PT Cruizer and I was wanting to put a 18" AQ HDC3 in it but I want to be able to see out the back window and I wander if anyone has any ideas on a box size or dimensions?? Thanks... I also have a blown SOLOX 12" And a TREO SSX 15" thats like new.. WHAT should I go with I like to feel my music also, Im running a 2000d optidrive amp, any suggestions???????? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 528 Registered: May-09 | Ok I finally found the perfect 18" It's the SSA XCON 18" and is about to come out. It has perfect frequency response and is designed for big enclosures:  After some serious number crunching the gross internal volume of that weird box of yours is 8.25 cuft, so the final design for this sub is as follows: Vb = 7,88 cu.ft Fb = 23,38 Hz F3 = 27,86 Hz No. of Vents = 3 Vent shape = round Vent ends = one flush Dv = 4, in Lv = 19,27 in This design is expected to produce 134,2 dB SPL at 22Hz after cabin gain, applying damping is necessary and subsonic filter should be set at 20Hz. Those vents can be made with 3 PVC pipes parts firing upwards where no obstruction exists. Each will need an elbow fitting due to space constraints. You also could try at some internal volume cost to make a single slot port, probably an L shaped bottom-back coming out on the top wall's back end. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 490 Registered: Oct-10 | I measured 8.25 also, the 2 slot ports were about a cube each, so it came to 6.25 NET, enough for 6 cubes. I'd prefer one big round port, but I still measured 6 cubes with a 12" round (x30 deep) (16" per cube) port, is that why you used 3 round ports? Do I really want a tuning of 23.38 Hz? I'd be very happy with 30 Hz. Is that the optimal tuning for a flat response, IE in 7.88 cubes it tells you a 23.38 Hz tuning will be flat? How much port area per cube & how's the port velocity? Will a XCON handle a 2200 with 1 (dedicated) batt, stock 105A alt, big 3, 1/0 gauge? Would it be at a low voltage? |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 491 Registered: Oct-10 | I'd like to keep the sub in the middle, and the only round ports that'll fit are 10 4's, 15.93" per cube with 7.88 cubes. It looks pretty cool too lol.  |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 492 Registered: Oct-10 | and you know, I completely forgot about magnet depth *face palm*. If it's like 10", I really dunno if it'd fit. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 529 Registered: May-09 | From the looks of the product you won't have a problem installing it on that box. http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/store/products/XCON%252d18-D2-%E2%80%93-Sound -Solutions-Audio-18%22-1750W-Dual-2%252dOhm-XCON-Series-Subwoofer.html However I realized on a youtube vid that they stacked up 3 board layers on the face the sub is mounted on just to have it withstand the vibration this thing produces.. this, software can't tell you. Those are constructional details that only guys like bassman3 are familiar with.Thinking of it that box will need braces and a slot port due to the levels of energy it produces. To evaluate current: 2200/14.4x0.85 = 179A Obviously your 105A alternator will not be able to keep up. I would place a 200A alt in your situation and if that's a stock battery then Id look for something stronger. Yes 1/0 is ok. The sub is rated 1750W RMS and will handle 2k with ease, 2.2K I don't know but there is no SPL advantage for those 200W. Regarding the response there is no point in moving the Fb, you move up Fb due to port length but at this box size the ports are pretty small, if you move up Fb it will probably get louder, the ZCON being a SPL sub is made to drop below 30Hz so that all energy goes into the audible region, The way is setup right now you get subsonic plus perfectly linear ultra high SQ performance on the audible region. Anyways it can be moved so not a problem. Yes that design was checked for port airspeed and excursion limit, It needs damping to limit port airspeed though. Finally regarding ports you need 2-3 port diameters of free airspace in either end, if the ports are blocked the box will detune instantly. Also should be located far from each other. My guess is that if you are going to use Dustin's services this is the right time to contact him, he will give you a better picture of how this should be done. |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 722 Registered: Oct-10 | A soloX 18 would handle the watts fasho. Maybe try 2 12" soloXs. If you wouldn't mind when you're bored one day to model a soloX 18" cuz I am expecting one UPS and would like to know what they can do and how well.I couldn't begin to use that WINISD. I have no computer internet |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 530 Registered: May-09 | Rob, SlakinMack, everyone, I just found this for you: the online version of WinISD: http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=newdriver For the HDC3 18"; Fs = 31, Vas = 109 L, Qts = .464 For the SoloX 18" 2DVC; Fs = 22.18, Vas = 177.61 L, Qts = .281 |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 493 Registered: Oct-10 | XCON 15 optimum in 4 @ 30 XCON 18 optimum 10.78 @ 24.68 When the XCON 18 is in 6 @ 30 it has nearly the same graph as the XCON 15 in 4 @ 30. The HDC3 18 optimizes in 6.1 @ 26.86. It also models better than the XCON 18 in 6 cubes. If an HDC3 18 can handle 2200 watts than it should be better than the XCON in 6 @ 30. The LMS Ultra 18 likes a small box, and between the HDC318 & LMS 18, the HDC3 18 graphs a little better (like .5-1dB) from 23-32 Hz. However, the LMS optimizes in 4.38 @ 25.17. So you get nearly the same graph with 1.72 cubes less. LMS handles 3k more though, so if you have the power, and little space, the LMS Ultra is a clear winner. If you have 6 cubes for an 18" than the HDC3 on 2k would be better than whatever else I've modelled. That online winisd is SWEEEEET! BTW the SS XXX 15 & 18 sucks, in any space lol. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 494 Registered: Oct-10 | I've been playing around with the 6th order, and I've gotten some excellent, flat & +3dB 20-60 Hz graphs out of the XCON and LMS 15 & 18's! |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 495 Registered: Oct-10 | I'm looking at a 15" now, might as well since I can't fit 38" through the door - the 15" XCON in 4 @ 30 has the same response as the 18" in 6 @ 30 anyways, it's actually a little flatter. Not a huge loss in out put, hell of a lot easier to get it in the trunk, cheaper box. LMS Ultra, XCON, HDC3. Back to 16.5 x 30 x 24. For a lack of cone area, that's why I wanted an 18", which is why I wanted lots of power for a 15". The RE XXX V4 15 & 18 are HT subs for sure - the 15 is "optimal" in 15 cubes @ 15 Hz! The XXX 18 in 6 @ 30 is +6dB @ 40 Hz. Optimal ported... 47.33 @ 11.36!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 531 Registered: May-09 | A few comments, the online WinISD won't give you SPL plots so 15" subs may look the same response but due to different sensitivity a 18" can be hell louder. Alignments can give you ultra low F3 but maybe by that time you went over Xmax or you get incredibly large ports, or horrible port noise so, many scenarios you get are unfeasible in practice. 4th order and up are *incredibly* harder to get right and need big boxes so leave those options as last resort. If you think you found a winner let me know and I will return you excursion plot, port sizes vent airspeed and such. Also don't forget the TCs Axis and LMS-R series. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 532 Registered: May-09 | XCON 15" vs XCON 18"  Both with optimized boxes. XCON 15" (yellow): Vb = 2,921 cu.ft Fb = 28,33 Hz F3 = 31,66 Hz XCON 18": (green): Vb = 8,878 cu.ft Fb = 23,38 Hz QL = 5,285 F3 = 26,13 Hz So in SPL those two are 2.5dB apart, the 18" is nearly like 2 15"s in SPL!! and you would have to put 1750W each 15" !!! Also F3 is 5.5 Hz below so the 18" is superior by far. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 496 Registered: Oct-10 | I can still fit an 18" just not a base of 38" across like a trapazodial or whatever, which leaves 4.75" x 15" port area, but it'd be like 4.5-5 cuft. Given that I'm calculating this correctly, the base is 38", the top is 29.7", and inbetween those is 33.85", so 33.85-3" of back & (tripple) baffle is 30.85" x 15 height x 17 across = 4.552, then +.28 for the circle cut out = 4.838 NET, so yeah, about 4.5 cubes after port & whatever. If the space is "optimal" does that mean if I use the LMS 18 in 4.38 cubes @ 25 Hz it'll be the "best" - because the optimal size for the SS XXX is like 1.5 cubes, and I really doubt that'd work. So I guess even though you may have an alignment it doesn't mean it'll perform that great. I realize they're not SPL plots. All in 4.5 @ 30 Axis (partsexpress isn't working) LMS-R (partsexpress isn't working) XCON 15 (-3 @ 28 / -15 @ 20) ZCON 15 (I'm tired) ZCON 18 (will) HDC3 15 (do) HDC3 18 (these later) Ultra 15 (can't find specs) Ultra 18 (-3 @ 29 / -15 @ 20) The SMD wouldn't fit cuz of the way long motor. On second thought the SS XXX's aren't that bad, obviously they're more SPL-sub. The TC sounds site doesn't have specs. Who makes a 200A alt for the Alero? |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 497 Registered: Oct-10 | These puppies must be new - AQ HDC4 (yes, FOUR!) http://www.audioque.com/HDC-40-Series-Subwoofers-_c_25.html That's a 6 dB difference between the 15 & 18 XCON? |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 498 Registered: Oct-10 | How did you get optimal 2.921 on the 15 and I got 3.96ish? |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 499 Registered: Oct-10 |  |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 500 Registered: Oct-10 | I told you 18 magnets wouldn't fit! 11.5" width x 11 depth.  |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 724 Registered: Oct-10 | shim the baffle to raise motor |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 726 Registered: Oct-10 | more precisely, cut a piece of mdf to look like a watermelon slither with no innards to insert behind the top of the basket |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 535 Registered: May-09 | The software I am using now optimizes in a more Vb efficient way with minimal losses of response. You know, at this point one thing is clear, if the sub optimizes on a big box you will get low and loud with it. You pick a driver that downsizes the enclosure and you will downsize your sound. (F3 or/and MaxSPL) So think about the size of your box and throw in a driver that optimizes efficiently on it and that's the best approach (I think). Also using more than one driver can only worsen efficiency. If you want top performance just go for the design on my post 528. Take away the windshield, steering wheel and seats if necessary or *maybe* tweak that design a little. Don't worry about constructional details like angles and all that for now unless those impact Vb. No dims spec on the XCON to suggest a proper angle. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 501 Registered: Oct-10 | 2 12's port 3 x 22.5ish 5-5.16 @ 31-32 I like this more than 1 15/18, takes more power, more cone area.  |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 502 Registered: Oct-10 | Final design would look a little different as I did 12.5" outer sub with .75" MDF, and the flange is .6875", so the port would be 2.875" x 22.5+ (cuz it's longer at the bottom), should work out to 3 x 23 ish. Baffle is 2.25". Taking the windhshield out is a little over the top. Imagine I put the windshield back and had a problem with the box lol. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 538 Registered: May-09 | If you would like me to do some math on it let me have the external dims and, which subs would you use? Two TC axis would get you 2k of power!! This project is starting to look like Will's on specs. Are you using inventor for those layouts? |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 503 Registered: Oct-10 | I thought the axis was 2.5k each. Did TC downgrade from Audiopulse like the LMS Ultra or were they given more realistic ratings? Idea from Don Hebigs 4 15's in a blazer... weird port shape 2 12's  2 12's dimensions (2.25" baffle/.75" MDF)  Could also do 3 10's with some aeroports. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 504 Registered: Oct-10 | Google Sketchup 8, it's a finicky turd. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 539 Registered: May-09 | Those will do above rated..4000W peak!...the price though... http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-638 |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 541 Registered: May-09 | Gross internal is 7.27 cuft so you basically lost a cube. So let's say you are looking for a 12" that optimizes at Vb= 3 cuft or so and rather efficient if possible I guess. Are the Axis too expensive?? I think so!! or let me know if you have a sub in mind. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 505 Registered: Oct-10 | DC Level 5 HDC4 TSNS Warden The 4" wall socket subs. I really like what I'm hearing about the Level 5's. I watched on Youtube a box jumping off the ground like 3" from a Level 5 12 or 15 it was nuts. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 506 Registered: Oct-10 | The Axis isn't worth $4xx for 1000W. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 545 Registered: May-09 | DC Level 5 http://www.dcsoundlab.com/woofers.html HDC4 http://www.audioque.com/HDC412-D1-A_p_135.html TSNS http://www.t3audio.com/core.mdv/TSNS.html Warden http://www.incriminatoraudio.com/update/index.php?page=2&product=22 HDC4 Fs = 43Hz $419!! No specs for the others but the DC L412" looks interesting. Fi Qs on Will's system go low and powerful at 3K, I also offered him 3 TC Epics which performed great (may take a look) I still would prefer a single 15" but yes many options have not been reviewed yet.  3 TC epics vs 2 XCON 12"s vs 1 XCON 18" at 6,3,6 cuft @ 25, 30, 26Hz, orange, green, violet. The TCs could work almost the same at 3 cuft also only the 18" needs the space. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 507 Registered: Oct-10 | Can't fit 3 12's on the baffle. Can fit 3 10's though, and response is the same between 2-12 & 3-10 when sharing 5 cubes. She's cheap, too! I really like that plot, it's hard to believe the Epics get so much louder than a XCON 18. Is that before or after power, cabin gain etc, like is it realistic? Lookin at 2 Epic 12's w/slot or 3 Epic 10's w/aeros, 1000w or 1500w (from a 2200 @ 1.3 or a 1200 @ .7). |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 508 Registered: Oct-10 |  |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 547 Registered: May-09 | Well that has been my whole point of the power of a single driver, The TCs pretty much can take 950W RMS each of clean power according to various sources Soooooo you would need 2850W of RMS power to top all 3 (that at 1.3 ohm of course) but in the plot all subs you see are getting 1750 each so impossible. the two XCON 12"s would need 2x1750 or 3500W power to get where they are (you don't have the power) AND the single 18 only takes 1750 watts of power to get where it is and that's why a single big driver RuLeZZZ!! A single 15" high efficiency and in the power range is the way to go if a 18" can't be used.. unless you can find a 90dB 1.1kW 12" driver that happens to hit below 30.. It has eluded me despite my efforts but maybe you could find it.. |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 728 Registered: Oct-10 | X2 |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 551 Registered: May-09 | So unless I ever get enlightened by a superior idea, here is my suggestion using the 7.27 cuft, just place the sub on the top of the box and 3 aeros on the front, Here are the specs: 1 SSA XCON 18" 6.57cuft@26Hz F3 = 29Hz 3 Port: Dv = 4, in Lv = 18,53 in 132dB@25Hz after cabin gain at 1750W RMS.  The Vb shrinking didn't really affected it meaningfully. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 509 Registered: Oct-10 | My comp is broken so I'll be out of this for a couple weeks :*( |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 565 Registered: May-09 | Yeah LH I guess I will get a modeling vacation but, I will be looking at some more 12"s, will post if I find something interesting, also I'll need to go back to winisd to get SPL comparative plots on available amp power and not on a normalized artificial input. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 587 Registered: May-09 | Ok so back to WinISD since you can assign different input power to different projects, interesting results from previous subs and a new one:  All subs 4.7cuft@28Hz 3 TC Sounds Epic 10" (white) Each sub on 500W RMS (1500W) 2 Fi Q 12" (green) Each sub on 1500W RMS (3000W) 1 SSA XCON 18" (yellow) Each sub on 1750W RMS (1750W) 2 IDMax 12D4 V3 (orange) Each sub on 1000W RMS (2000W) The IDMax pair can basically match the XCON 18" up to 40Hz, so it makes and outstanding choice for deep bass twin 12"s, furthermore it can beat 2 two Fi Qs on 3000W with only 2000W. The IDMax is hard to beat sub on bottom end and efficiency. Far below the 3 TC 10"s with limited power handling and low sensitivity, good only for SQ applications. The IDMax 12" V3 prove to have many strengths combining the low frequency extension of the TCs and the power efficiency for SPL applications and still keeping itself SQ. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 588 Registered: May-09 | Exactly the same as above but Vb = 6.5 cuft (your latest box).  One can see clearly how inefficient the pair of Fi Q 12"s (3000W) are against the XCON 18" (1750W). The IDMax is a clear 12" winner BUT $$!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 510 Registered: Oct-10 | The XCON is a clear winner in 4.5-5 cubes. What an awesome sub. I started a new job this week, so I should have something started by 2-4 weeks, just gonna buy everything at once and have it all in by a saturday. Those MAXs are impressive! Too bad they're discontinued. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 634 Registered: May-09 | The iDMAX is alive & well: http://www.imagedynamicsusa.net/id_max_info.html It's just that it's damn expensive. The company had issues but still going, and may I say a 12" standing up to a 18" is no easy feat, really outstanding, as you say. And there may be other great subs out there, damn companies not listing t/s params and that includes the SSA ICON, very interesting subs but they need such big boxes (and therefore go low) that they just canceled the 18". |
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Silver Member Username: DenimSSAudio.com, MD USA Post Number: 934 Registered: Nov-06 | I just stumbled across this thread. Anyway, in testing, you can go a little larger on the Xcon then what we have listed. Personally I prefer the Xcon 18 in close to 7.0 cubes, and the 15" version in 5ish cubes. The Xcon is our attempt at an SQ biased woofer handing the power that more and more people are running. The Zcon is it's counter part for the people where sheer output is more the goal. @Joe, we always list our spec's, we are not one of these companies that hide them. We do not have the Icon specs up at the moment as they are changing because it is finishing up an upgrade. Much better cooling, strong motor and more leads etc. Once everything is all buttoned up, we will have spec's on the Icon when it goes back on the market. Hope some of that helps. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 641 Registered: May-09 | Ok Denim thanks for the info, I am going to guess that you are still selling the old Icon on your store. Also I am going to guess that the Icon is aimed to compete with something like the Fi Q. |
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Silver Member Username: DenimSSAudio.com, MD USA Post Number: 935 Registered: Nov-06 | The old Icon has been out of production technically for nearly 8 months. The old Icon was in the same general area as the prior Q, so the new Icon follows suit. 1000+ watt SQ sub with great output potential. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 647 Registered: May-09 | Ok Denim thanks again, sure will be interesting to look at the new one when it comes out. 1K SQ sub is plenty for some of us. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 512 Registered: Oct-10 | I was fired yesterday for not smiling enough... *facepalm*... they called it "lack of motivation". I went everyday, was early, courteous and productive, and put in 60 hours + travel in 7 days. What horse ****! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 669 Registered: May-09 | I know a guy that has had 30+ jobs or so and then landed one and has been there like 3 years no issues, so not surprised... maybe you should find something subwoofer related! |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 515 Registered: Oct-10 | I hate being unemployed >.< I feel like now everytime I get a new job I'm going to be looking for another while working there and it's going to be endless. I don't think there's many things out here related to subwoofering, although I've applied to a car audio shop twice in the past few months. I went there before, and they couldn't build me a ported box, which I thought was wack. So I told them I know a lot about boxes. I never was that good with understanding basic electrical, although now I know what can wire into what without a chart - audio teaches you! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 675 Registered: May-09 | Like the guy I told you, finally ended up liking the place and the job so its going well. In all honesty there are unbearable jobs. Sure, the sort of business that have a few cheap sealed prefabs on the back.... |
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