Want low end, but space is limiting me to 10's or 8's HELP!
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 289 Registered: Aug-10 | Well I recently got a 97 K3500. I dont want to take the back seat out just yet, so im doing a setup that will replace the center console in the front. I've taken measurements, and he biggest box i can go with would be maybe 2.5ft^3 not including the port. My last setup were 2 Fi Q 12's on a MMATS 3000.1 tuned to 30hz. i LOVE low end. but because of the small width between the seats, i can only fit 2 10's or maybe 4 8's comfortably. any suggestions on how i can get the most low end out of 2 10's or 4 8's? I would need to be able to run them of my 3000.1 so i can do 3000 @ 1ohm, or about 1500 @ 2 ohms. Ive never built a sub before, but i was thinking of maybe getting a pair of 05 XXX motors and building a couple 10's, but i dont know if thats the best option. and BTW the Fi Q 12's are for sale on CACO or just PM me if youre interested. Any help on this topic would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 381 Registered: May-09 | 2 10" TC epics on a ported isobaric 1 cuft@25 Hz will give F3 = 24Hz, that's plenty low for me! hopefully 2 sets will fit. Not very cheap of course. |
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Gold Member Username: KaerfplSpencerport, NY USA Post Number: 1360 Registered: Jun-06 | I understand that you are looking at 2.5 Cu Ft, but what kindof dimensions are we looking at in terms of length x depth x width for the whole enclosure size? |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 290 Registered: Aug-10 | yeah i heard epics are real nice on low end would 2 10's really perform well in that small of an enclosure though? i also heard that the soundsplinter rl-i8's and rl-i10's have nasty low end |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 291 Registered: Aug-10 | and joe, max width is 11 or 12, max height is 22, and max length is about 30 inches, although if need be i could make it up to 43 inches long |
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Bronze Member Username: John253aAust. Post Number: 78 Registered: May-11 | What type of sound are you after You could use 2x FI BL10 1ohm dvc in a 1.4-2cuft+port ported box 2x Boston Acoustics SPG555-4 in a 2cuft sealed or 1x in a ported 2cuft+ port 2x JL Audio10W7-3 sealed in 2.5cuft or 1 in ported 1.5+port 2x re SXX10D2 In 2cuft seales or 1 in 1.25ported +port With your amp unless you want to overpower subs it restricts your options |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 383 Registered: May-09 |  There you see the response for the 10" TCs: 1) green single sub in a 1 cuft ported tuned to 25Hz 2) yellow dual subs in isobaric compound: in a 1 cuft ported tuned to 25Hz For 1 as you can see you get F3 about 35Hz. For 2 where the cross hair is at you get F3 about 24Hz of course the catch is that 4 drivers are needed, in a face to face isobaric the same box is used as in a single driver. Isobaric is not efficient nor cost effective but will get you those deep lows if you are determined to get them. |
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Gold Member Username: JbpittPittsburgh, Pa. Usa Post Number: 1281 Registered: Jul-09 | You wont be disappointed with the epics.... |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 292 Registered: Aug-10 | joe, im not a very advanced box builder so you sorts lost me a bit there. unless i can figure out aero ports, the box will be slot ported. dont know if it makes a difference what way everything faces, but i was thinking just subs up, maybe one rear facing if i cant fit them all on the top. rear firing port at the bottom if i have to put one rear facing sub, or top firing port if i can fit all the subs on top |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 293 Registered: Aug-10 | and john, cant i just use a multimeter to set my gains to get the right amount of power for any setup i go with? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 389 Registered: May-09 | Ok Will at this point I just wanted to prove feasibility to you. Just to be clear to get the F3 = 24Hz you need four drivers! Are you in for that? or 2 drivers for F3 = 35Hz. Also 12x22x30 / 12^3 = 4.58 cuft, 4.58/2 = 2.29 cuft external per subwoofer, not sure what did you mean by 2.5 cuft total? |
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Gold Member Username: JbpittPittsburgh, Pa. Usa Post Number: 1282 Registered: Jul-09 | Ever think of just runnin one of the Q 12s an just selling the other? |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 294 Registered: Aug-10 | okay joe, i know i this is probably a dumb question but what exactly is F3? and also, the 2.5 was just a rough estimate, and that was just estimating the box volume, after port displacement. and those measurements actually come out to 3.55ft^3 when you subtract what space the mdf itself takes up |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 295 Registered: Aug-10 | Art, i thought about it, and i might try to do it for temporary purposes, but it would just be a very tight squeeze between my arm rests |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 390 Registered: May-09 | Actually is not, F3 is short for F(-3dB) to be brief is the lowest usable frequency for an enclosed driver. Below that you won't hear that much so it's not "usable", In the plot I posted above it reads in the lower left corner, 23.91Hz, -3.07dB that point is F3 (it's also marked in the white crosshair). 10.5 x 20..5 x 28.5 / 12^3 = 3.55 cuft with 3/4" MDF excellent. So a single Fi Q 15 (Mounting depth: 8.5") could fit since you have 10.5" Ported eff vol =2.8-4 ft3, the 3.55 could be shared with a slot port.Would you go that route for simplicity?? What I mean to say is that you have some options with 3.55 cuft. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 296 Registered: Aug-10 | Ohh okay that makes a lot more sense now. and i thought about going with the 15, or making my box longer and putting my 12's in there, but i was just thinkin about trying something new. id also prefer it if i had my subs facing up instead of to the side vibrating my leg. and earlier you mentioned 2 epic 10's in 1ft^3 tuned to 25hz? will they really perform well in that small of a box? |
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Bronze Member Username: John253aAust. Post Number: 79 Registered: May-11 | Nevertoomuchbass The rms output is set by the ohms of the circut, yes turning down the gain will supply less power to subs, but you are better off looking at the specs of amp and finding out of the rms output was recorded at 12 or 14.4v as some companys do to dress up their product. Im pretty sure your amp was tested at 14.4v so at 12v your only got 2500rms@1ohm witch means you can look at subs rated at 600wrms in either 4ohm svc or 2ohm dvc. The best way to set amps and hu is with a oscilloscope if you google it you will see how/what it does. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 391 Registered: May-09 | No 2 subs won't give you F3 = 24Hz for that you need 2 isobaric compounds so 4 subwoofers, Take a look at an isobaric compound:  You never ever use this unless you have run out of every other single option, for example having only 2.5 cuft to work with. It will get you the F3 = 24Hz in a small box but at horrible costs, first double drivers is double money, then double power and looks horrible. But if you have the space, never use that, 3000W will sound like 1500. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 297 Registered: Aug-10 | john, i emailed mmats about what voltage their wattage ratings are at. but if your electrical is up to par, no reason you shouldnt be close to 14.4v. and actually the best way to set gains now is with that new distortion detector steve meade just came out with. that thing is magic haha. i know how to set gains with a mulimeter/o-scope though. i was just thinkin maybe i could use a multimeter and some test tones to set the gain right so the amp puts out around the watts i want it to |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 298 Registered: Aug-10 | joe, sorry i wasnt familiar with isobaric enclosures but i know what youre talking about now. but i was thinking about maybe doing 4 soundsplinter rl-i10's it says on their website that the optimal enclosure for one would be .45ft^3 tuned to 27hz. so that would be around 2 cubes for all 4 plus port. i can extend the box back up to an additional 13 inches, so i think that should give me plenty of space for that huge port. and ill wire them to my mmats at 2 ohms. i think 1500 watts should be more than enough for them unless you think otherwise. |
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Gold Member Username: SouthernrebelMonroe, Louisiana Team Audible... Post Number: 8517 Registered: Mar-04 | I didn't read this entire thread....but given that you want a front center console box....an isobaric design is not likely to give you the results you want in the space you have (given a late 90's 4-door chevy truck cabin) ***again i didn't read the whole thread...I just read that you wanted lows and a front-center console box**** I would HIGHLY SUGGEST a 2-10. 2-10's in a box downfire on the transmission hump up front. Allow the port to fire back along the transmission hump and end near the back wall of the cabin. Higher freq. bass response may suffer due to delay group, but the low end can be thundering! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 393 Registered: May-09 | A single soundsplinter rl-i10 0.45@27Hz F3= 50Hz A single TC Sounds Epic 10" 0.45@27Hz F3= 45Hz 4 soundsplinter rl-i10 sharing airspace will optimize at: 1.893 cuft@36.9Hz F3= 43Hz No real bottom end from both drivers at 0.45 cuft, with the four drivers sharing airspace will get a little lower but in a meaningless way. To get lower you will need to go for bigger drivers or the isobarics No way around it I guess |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 439 Registered: Oct-10 | Look at 2 used Eclipse SW8210's for a sealed box, they'd wire into 2 ohms, 750W RMS, in 1 cube sealed (each) it's around QTC .6/FC 30 Hz (for both 10" & 12"). The older Eclipse SW8000 10" does well in small sealed. I had 3 SW8200's sharing 1500W in 1.25 cubes sealed each, and I've yet to hear a system that dug into the low 20's as loudly. Less efficient subs work better in small sealed, high sensitivity subs need more space to gallop. If you really want lows, look into any LMS motors in a sealed box, just model them all for the best QTC/FC/F3 (which is probably the Eclipse SW8010/8210). I've modelled so many, and they're my favourite. |
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Gold Member Username: JbpittPittsburgh, Pa. Usa Post Number: 1285 Registered: Jul-09 | Will,if you do decide to go with a 15'' sub in there. I have a 15'' Q that maybe we could work a trade out for your 12s and some cash i my part of course. No big thing...just a thought. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 299 Registered: Aug-10 | wouldn't i get louder low end in a low tuned ported box than a sealed box? and Joe, so you're saying that with 4 rl-i-10's, i wouldn't hear much below 43 hz? Canaan, why down fire vs top fire? and the port would probably go to the rear seat Lord Huggington, I've heard those ecipse 8200's are great low end subs. any idea how they compare to the rli's and the epic's? and whats an LMS motor? and art, i just don't want anything that big since i can only sire-fire it |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 300 Registered: Aug-10 | oh, and rick from mmats replied to me, mmats amps are all rated at 13.8 volts |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 404 Registered: May-09 | Will, I was wondering the specifications of the box that you were running your 12"s on and what car were you using them in, I am aiming to try get you the "same" response that you liked before with the 3.55 cuft you have now. I will also compare the SSs with the TCs. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 301 Registered: Aug-10 | it was supposed to be 5 ft^3 tuned to 30hz, but this was the first ported box i ever built, and turns out i didn't realize the box volume doesn't include the space taken up by the port. so I really ended up with about 3.35 cubes, tuned to about 36 hz. But it took me about 6 months to figure out i goofed. personally, i thought it sounded amazing. it got hella low and it was sooo loud. so i can't even imagine how low it woulda gotten if they were in 5 cubes @ 30hz. The car was a 96 buick lesabre. subs were in the trunk facing up, with a rear-firing port. and remember, i can make the box up to 43 inches long so its not limited to just 3.55 ft^3 |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 442 Registered: Oct-10 | A lot of people say that more space = less SPL (for less power anyways). The higher the sub sensitivity, the bigger the box needs to be for it to make use of it. What you'll want to ponder more is how long can a port be until it isn't usefull being long because you could have 16" of port area per cubic foot @ 30 Hz or you can have 12" of port area per cubic foot @ 30 Hz. The one with 16" is going to move more air, but it's going to have a much longer port, and there would be less NET space as it takes up more room. So really you're almost always stuck with making the port the most practical size in an L-shape for your tune, unless you can get creative (IE isobaric). Nobody ever gives you a straight up knowledgable answer, they'll just tell you "22 is a good length". I had an older Lesabre and it was loudest with sub & port rear-fire. Ported to 30 Hz, pretty much all 12's or a 15" with 1-2k should be louder until 25 Hz. For 25 Hz and below, you'd be better off with sealed & LMS motors. When you feel 20 Hz at like 130-140dB it can be way more fun than 150dB @ 40 Hz. It's like a silent earthquake, and it freaks people out. For comparison, my sunfire GT had stock electrical, ported 05 RE XXX 12 in 2.25 cubes @ 36 Hz on 1500W @ 1 ohm. I switched it out for 2 SW8200's in 2.5 cubes sealed, 375W each, and the sealed was as loud as the ported (except for 37-40 Hz which was a little more aggressive). The XXX fell off hard after 35 Hz, barely touched 32 Hz, and the SW's were flat down to 20 Hz, a huge gap with the XXX. If I gave 2 SW's 750-1000W they would have blown the doors off the XXX. < 30 Hz is where it's at. LMS stands for "Linear Motor Structure". TC Sounds, Audiopulse, Eclipse, and some others used the technology. Distortion is caused by the coiling rocking sideways. Basically when you see a speaker moving sideways, it's rubbing on the inside parts and causing the motor to stress to the point where it can blow. For a normal speaker design, the farther the speaker cone moves from its center position, the more distortion it has, among less motor force (because it's already being used up by moving the speaker). LMS takes away the problem of that, and it keeps the exact same motor force at 0mm excursion and full excursion. Meaning, if you listen to something with a bassline that also has single kicks throughout - ever notice how when the bassline is going, the single kicks aren't as loud when played at the same time? That doesn't happen with LMS, and a bassline with single kicks plays at an even volume. If your sub is moving without proper force than it can cause distortion because it allows sideways coil movement, so louder volumes = more distortion. LMS has zero distortion because it's not really possible by the design. The design basically is two upside down motors into one? I think. Not sure on that one lol. It's a lot harder to break an LMS motor, and you'd find its mechanical & thermal limits before damage by distortion - which, for a lot of people, is the main reason they blow their speakers - using dirty power. So they last longer lol. Comparing the class-leading LMS sub by Audiopulse (now TC Sounds) LMS-Ultra 15" & 18" to every other XBL^2 or advertised "low-distortion" subwoofer, it was worlds better on a graph for linear output vs. distortion. Again, the loss in sensitivity is hugely made up for by having such low distortion that it becomes that much louder. Now, correct me if I'm wrong! Then there is the XBL^2 motor, which retains 70% of the motor-force at full excursion, so it's generally 30% away from being an LMS motor. The good thing about LMS is that even with more power that number doesn't change, while that 70% would drop with more power. The 05 RE XXX uses XBL^2. It has better SQ than the SW's, and it sounds so neutral, with zero coloration, that it's hard to like any other sub. Adire and Creative Sound Solutions also used XBL^2, but they aren't around anymore. If I had the money and wanted low end output, I'd be getting an LMS-Ultra 18"/5.25 cube sealed box/5k amp. It models the best out of all LMS subs - QTC .55 - FC 28 Hz in 5.25 sealed. The 15" on the other hand, is flat QTC in 2 cubic feet, FC 35 Hz IIRC. They can be had for like $500 used. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 302 Registered: Aug-10 | wow. haha i am blown away that was an amazing explanation. I've heard of xbl^2 but never really knew what it was. as for the 05 XXX falling off below 35 hz i don't really see it. just one in my friends jeep liberty gets down into the high 20's reasonably well. but then again I've never heard a LMS sub. do LMS subs run better sealed than ported? and if they do, i could easily run 4 10's in my truck couldn't i? I'm right there with you on that silent earthquake thing. i think 40hz at 150db is just obnoxious sometimes. id much rather have insane low end with still pretty good high end than insane high end and weak low end. sounds like LMS is what i want |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 408 Registered: May-09 | Ok Will take a look at what you were listening to excluding cabin effects: 2 12" Fi Q sharing airspace on a 3.35 cuft @ 36Hz:  You had F3 = 32Hz and a resonance peak at 38Hz, also you had elevated group delay which is not good. It would be relatively easy to achieve this response with 2 10" TC Sounds with the space you have. Now if you want to go subsonic and actually feel the waves you must displace a lot of air, trying that with 10"s would prove hard, it looks like a job better suited for higher diameter subs. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 446 Registered: Oct-10 | I have no doubts in the XXX, the box was tuned to 36 Hz though. Low port area, no resin on the inside, no bracing, no 45 degree corners, and no kerfed port all contributed to poor performance below the tune. I used an SW8200 in the XXX's box, and while Eclipse recommends that you don't do that to prevent over-excursion, it was fine, and I used it for 2 months. I never had a problem with over-excursion, even with 1500W (IIRC, 1500W @ 1 ohm + SVC 4 ohm = 1 or 4 ohms), and they're 670W RMS, so I was pushing its limits with zero problems, no wonderous gluey smells or even distortion. Some LMS's are designed more towards sealed boxes, but all LMS motors succeed more than any other design in sealed for both QTC & FC, and the only one that's recommended for sealed only is the older SW8000/8200 series. All of the newer TC sounds/Audiopulse LMS's "allow" for ported. 4 10's could get costly (call it $150 each used), but it would no doubt have better extension below 30 Hz than anything else you could fit in 4 cubes - 2 12's or a 15" ported @ 30 Hz. 2 1500W subs would be right around the same price though (call it $300 each/new). The port length can become as long as 60" for a 25 Hz tune, far too long to be practical. It's hard to even tune below 35 Hz without taking away performance-based port area. Your amp is a perfect match for 4 of the Eclipse 10's, 750W into a 625W RMS sub won't hurt at all as it's never really seeing 750W all the time anyways (being SVC 4 ohm only, 4 of them wire into 1 ohm, so you'd be using 3000W). Both the older & newer versions are fit for 1 cube sealed, and they model nearly the same with slightly different QTC's, which pretty much means the older one gets down to 15 Hz and the other gets down to 20 Hz. It would be best if they were just all up in a row stretching to the back seat, it'd be the most practical fit. Everytime someone says sealed can't get loud I direct them to the Extreme SS-whatever-1-or-something class that used like 70,000W on an 18" in a sealed box for 170-180 dB @ ? Hz, however impractical lol. In the extreme class a sealed box can be louder than ported because of the crazy acoustics at high output. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 303 Registered: Aug-10 | well it sounds like 4 eclipse 10's are what i want then. cost isn't too much of an issue to me. i have a few friends who want my 12" Q's, so that'll be 450-500, and i already have my amp, wires, and MDF/gorilla glue. how do i differentiate between the older and newer eclipses? |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 448 Registered: Oct-10 | Old is the SW8000 & SW8200, they are aluminum cones and they have a Death Star type of look to the magnet/motor as they have heat fins sticking out all over the place. They're grey/black/silver. New is the SW8010 & SW8210, notice the added 10. These ones have a shiney outer bracket mount, no heat fins, black magnet. They're black/darker grey, red, and shiney silver. I have both manuals in .PDF, I can email you them (message me). The SW8000/8200 have 4th order graphs (two graphs for 2.25 cubes total (like ported/sealed) each), and graphs from .3 cubes-1 cube sealed. SW8000 FS 16 Hz VAS 3.75 cubic feet QTS .4 SW8200 has 2 graphs for 2 4th orders, 3 cuft (F3 23 Hz!) and 4.5 cuft, and 4 graphs sealed from .5 cuft to 1.5 cuft. SW8200 FS 16 Hz VAS 8.27 cubic feet QTS .421 xmax 38mm SW8010 700W RMS FS 21 Hz QTS .36 VAS 28 liters (google "28 liters in cubic feet") xmax 22mm 86 dB SW8210 750W RMS FS 20 Hz QTS .37 VAS 42 liters xmax 28mm 86.5 dB Model them with this: http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=30 8200 http://i.seimg.net/images/27141/main/sw8200.jpg 8210 http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k460/savage1119/EclipseSW8210.jpg I should mention, 8000/8010 = 10", 8200/8210 = 12". |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 411 Registered: May-09 |  On blue, the Eclipse SW8000 On yellow the Eclipse SW8010 On orange the TC Sounds Epic 10" On violet the Soundsplinter RLi10 On green TC Sounds Epic 10" ported 1.7cuft@27Hz Vent: 3.23"x13.89" that is 0,26 cuft airspace. Total airspace per sub = 1.96 cuft The ported TC will substantially outperform any sealed configuration in deep bass for any frequency above 25Hz also only 2 will be needed due to ported efficiency, same airspace needed, and lower cost. The SW8000 is unbeatable for sealed. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 449 Registered: Oct-10 | That's 4 SW8000's in 4 cubes sealed and 2 TC EPic 10's in ~4 cubes ported... ? I have to figure out how to use winisd! After 42 Hz the Eclipse's are only 1dB louder, but they have such a nice curve, exactly how it sounded in my car compared to the XXX (like the green plot). 25-42 Hz is only -2 dB from the Epics, which start dropping off only 2 Hz away from the Eclipse's, making my statements... true! MUAH! That's why I roll with LMS... or used to *sigh*. So after cabin gain you'd have somewhat peaky Epics or flatter SW's. Can you please do a plot for the SW8000-SW8200-SW8010-SW8210 in 1 cube sealed for all? I'd like to see which is the most gut-busting. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 304 Registered: Aug-10 | wow haha F3 at 23hz must be amazing. I'm not familiar with 4th orders at alllll though. dont know anything about them other than its a type of bandpass box. would 2 epics ported really be louder than 4 SW8000's from 25-40hz? |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 305 Registered: Aug-10 | yeah im definitely diggin that nice flat curve for the sw8000. good thing i didnt just go ahead with 4 rli10's. i second Lord Huggington's request for a graph for the eclipses |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 412 Registered: May-09 | First off my apologies the SW8000 an the TC sealed curves were at optimized volumes (much higher on the SW8000), here are the correct responses:  Sharing airspace will not affect response if proportions are kept so if you put a second driver and double the airspace the response will be the same (+3dB of course), with ported you only add a second port of same dimensions. All sealed are at 1 cuft. Not everyone like the idea of sharing airspace but in this case I would do to control the box size. In the corrected curves the SW8000 shows the effects of airspace starvation loosing some extension and giving the ported TC 1 hertz advantage, also to note is that the SW8000 will play louder higher frequency content so from that standpoint the ported will perform better. I would gladly compare the eclipses but placing the 12"s on 1 cuft probably will not be a good idea so.... |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 417 Registered: May-09 | I wanted to add that real world cabin gain is pretty chaotic full of resonances and really dependent on the car and when you see a 0.5 to 1 dB boost/cut somewhere that's not going to make a meaningful difference. It's modeled as a -12dB per octave gain starting somewhere in the 50-90 Hz region but usually is measured for a car, some modeling softwares let you import gain data into your model. I am looking to upgrade from winisd. And if you happen to have parametric equalization there are a lot of issues that can be cured as far as response goes. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 450 Registered: Oct-10 | How about 4 of the Eclipse's in optimized sealed volumes? How do you find the optimal space? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 422 Registered: May-09 | I have seen the equations to optimize for linear response, obviously this software is using those. The SW8000 optimizes at 1.765 cuft The SW8010 optimizes at 0.346 cuft (It actually gives better performance than on a 1 cuft! ) Still the ported TCs give significantly better deep bass, the soundsplinters also fit at incredibly tight airspace but the real deal is the SW8000 for sealed. Anyways 4 cubic feet internal is already above the limit Will have, I tried because he says he has13 extra inches external width but above 4 cuft internal I don't think he has. Will you should check again the max volume you can fit to really come up with solid options. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 306 Registered: Aug-10 | 12x22x43 outside dimensions gives me 5.17 cubes with 3/4" MDF |
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Gold Member Username: JbpittPittsburgh, Pa. Usa Post Number: 1288 Registered: Jul-09 | Go with the epics....you wont be disappointed. I got mine in a 4cuft box tuned to 32hz. I cant tell you how impressed i am with these subs. Plus they only come in dual 2,so they will be a good match for that amp. couple pics,box by bassman    |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 426 Registered: May-09 | Fs has been revised to 18Hz on the SW8000: http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/sw/sw8200.html  On orange, 4x Eclipse SW8000 sealed 5.17cuft F3=32.3Hz On green 2x TC Sounds Epic 10" ported 4.65cuft@27Hz F3=28Hz On violet 3x TC Sounds Epic 10" ported 4.39cuft@30Hz F3=24.5Hz Vent: 3.23"x13.89" one vent per sub. So on violet I managed to put 3 TCs I tuned to 30Hz to preserve linearity an it behaves quite well, its a good trade of linearity and bass extension. On green is a 2 TC sub setup due to the increased volume size and lower tuning it achieves F3=24.5Hz and will be louder on deep bass than every other configuration starting 21.2Hz On yellow the SW8000 feels more comfortable recovering basically all linearity loss on the 1 cube. The volume per sub is 1.3cuft. phew.. I must love subs. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 427 Registered: May-09 | AAHHH I just realized that those SW8000 subs have horribly high driver displacement hope it does not change things against them too much (higher F3 to start). LH do you have that info??? |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 307 Registered: Aug-10 | damn haha now im thinkin i want the 2 epics. i dont listen to much over 40hz, and when i do, i dont really care about it being that loud. i just want everything below 40hz loud. and without taking out my back seat, its lookin like the 2 epics are my best bet and btw that is a clean åss box. haha mine are always sloppy cuz of my cheap 18v circular saw and my excessive gorilla glue. all i care about it how it sounds though |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 451 Registered: Oct-10 | That just blows my mind, go green! |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 452 Registered: Oct-10 | The displacement on both 12's is .12 and the 10's is .08. It took me 5 emails to Fujitsu, they must not understand much English because each time I asked they'd send me the manuals again lol. Definetly get the Epics. I still want to see all the Eclipse's in 1 cube sealed, just cuz that's what I had them all in, practical or not. They got so low even with FC 44 Hz, must be the crazy xmax. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 453 Registered: Oct-10 | When I try to plot something on winisd pro alpha I can never get multiple plots into one. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 308 Registered: Aug-10 | well looks like its the epics for the win! now should i get a different amp to power them? cuz theyre rated at 500w rms, and my amp at 2 ohms does around 1500 |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 309 Registered: Aug-10 | would there be any reason to consider 4 epic 8's |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 428 Registered: May-09 | Not in my opinion Will those are 81 dB nearly 5 dB less than the 10" so if you put four you will add 3db so you will end up short almost 2 dB so it will be not as loud. If you ask me I would use the violet 3 woofers that would be louder like 2dB and linear and if you factor in cabin gain plenty low, lesser group delay, ideally maybe 2 12" that would be fantastic displacement, of course that's just me. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 310 Registered: Aug-10 | just curious, but do any of yall know anything about orion hcca's? i know theyre not an sq sub, but my friend has 2 10's and they get pretty damn loud, and still get reasonably low. i have absolutely no idea how they compare to the epics though |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 429 Registered: May-09 |  All subs on sealed 1 cuft. On yellow SW8000 On green SW8200 On light blue SW8010 On red SW8210 The SW8000 is the one that gets upset in a single cube. The SW8200 gets F3 = 26.7Hz impressive for 1 cuft sealed. Number crunching exhausted now... |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 435 Registered: May-09 | Here is the manual: HCCA MANUAL For the 10" it has 100 extra watts compared to the TCs (not much). To be noticed is the +6dB in voltage sensitivity wiring in parallel. Those will be 4-5 dB louder than the TC with the combined advantages. Pretty loud. The curves and smallish box volumes are only valid using their special amps so I would not bet any money on those specs if you use those with other equipment. Guess they need to be modeled. Overall an SPL competition sub that dB meters will like, not to be compared to any of the subs we discussed above on SQ. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 455 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks, I loooove the SW8200!!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 311 Registered: Aug-10 | if i had the space id do a pair of 8200's. but i think im going with the 2 epic 10's. what would be my optimal airspace for those? i know my limit was 5.17 cubes, but thats just a basic rectangular box, I can definitely squeeze out 2-3 more cubes if i get real intricate. and you said 1 3.23"x13.89" vent per sub? wouldnt that be pretty small? and why 2 vents versus 1 for both? |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 312 Registered: Aug-10 | and joe, on the graph that you had the 3 epic 10's on, you said F3 was 24.5 for the 3 epics(violet), and 28 for the 2 epics (green), but it looks like the green graph is the one with F3 of 24.5hz. so either im reading it wrong or you got something mixed up |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 313 Registered: Aug-10 | and back to the amp question, will 2 epics be okay running on my 3000.1 at 2 ohms? or should i look at a different amp? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 436 Registered: May-09 | Your amp is perfect forget about that, yes the green is the one with F3 = 24.5Hz as I stated later sorry. If you see the plot it becomes clear. And damn it thanks for calling my attention on the SW8200 it was so odd to me that it didn't misbehave like the SW8000 did at 1 cubic feet and as it turns out the response shown was for optimized volume which is of 4 cuft per sub:  So: On green SW8200, Sealed 1cuft On orange Autotek M12D4, Sealed 1cuft On yellow SW8200, Sealed 4 cuft. On violet 2xTC sounds, Ported 4.75 cuft@26Hz 2xVent: 3.23"x11.12" = 0.421 cuft. Because of the plot on the SW8200 (green) I think that the SW8000 is much better alternative since with only 1.3 cuft behaves almost perfectly. In this case reworking to a single vent took up more internal airspace. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 458 Registered: Oct-10 | He was probably saying that size of port area needs to be for each sub, so you would effectively double the area per sub, as one vent. Not giving everything to the graphs, 3 would most definetly be more violent, you'd feel that more even if a graph says other-wise (unless the air space is like wayyy too small, but it isn't). It's a great match. Any amp or sub isn't ever really seeing max watts, IE if you have a stock electrical than your 3000W is more like 2000W... it's like that without alts & batts. Maybe more like 2500W... You always want an amp that can put out a little more power, and that's why, for head room. At max volume for the subs your amp won't be slowly dying. S.Dub.82 is now my favourite sub XD. Would make a cool licence plate lol. Really want 16 of them in 16 cubes on a 16k. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 459 Registered: Oct-10 | ... you're quick, Joe. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 460 Registered: Oct-10 | Wow look at the Autotek go! |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 314 Registered: Aug-10 | So 3 epics would really be a significant difference from 2, even the graph makes it look like not much difference? and with F3 for the 3 epics at 28hz, would there be a significant improvement in the low end with only 2? haha sorry for all the questions. all of this is way over my head and i cant figure out what the best setup will be |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 438 Registered: May-09 | Yes the Autoteks perform...Will they melt under the sun??...lol. Will you would get around 2 dB more with 3, But I like 2 12"s for what you are trying to do, those are $5 more each will give you the 2db and in a 2 ohm load. Its just a question of how to place them right. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 315 Registered: Aug-10 | yeahh if i really got intricate with the box design i could definitely put 2 12's in there. but if i was gonna do that, how much better would the epics really hit the lows compared to my Q's? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 444 Registered: May-09 |  Both ported designs fitting 5.17 cuft On white 2xFi Q 12" On green 2xTC Sounds 10" They perform almost the same but since you can put 3000 to the Fi Qs you get +5dB over the TCs......and that is what I am talking about!! seismic activity!! Definitely try to design around your 12"s you will get exactly what you want, you just were running them in wrong box. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 316 Registered: Aug-10 | haha wow after all this and im right back wherte i started :p i really appreciate all yall's help though. no other forum is this insightful. i asked the same question on the SMD forum and ca.com, and got nothing. so at the end of the day, are my 2 Q's the best option out of all the eclipse, soundsplinter, and tc sounds 10's/12's? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 449 Registered: May-09 | What makes best the Fi Qs is that they can be wired at one ohm and that have much higher RMS rating. The TCs response is fantastic for a 10" though I have not modeled a 12" but since your amp is not 0.5 ohm stable like the .05d the Fi Qs are best for you. You just have to install them in a way that you don't have the subs in your face if that's the problem, maybe an slightly angled top. Also I have not explored the 10" Fi Qs who knows, you have to think about all this before doing anything. Its amazing to see what this top subs can do though, |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 317 Registered: Aug-10 | Id think the 12" q's would get lower than the 10" Q's. The Q's have a higher Fs than the epics at 34.2hz. So what would I want to tune them to? and Do I want 2 ports versus just 1? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 451 Registered: May-09 | Will I checked and 2 Q's 12" behave EXACTLY as 4 10"s with deep bass and all, you just get 3dB less. Only this damn software fails to give the vent mach with the 4 10" maybe I should get something better to model. I will look into it. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 318 Registered: Aug-10 | well i think ill just stick with my 2 12's then. its by far my simplest option, due to the fact that i already have all of the equipment i need. how much port area do i need? right now i have like 5.25x12" port in that 3.35 cube box |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 454 Registered: May-09 | Ok, I need a vent diameter available to you 3-4 inches, also I don't have the driver displacement you have the manual, can you provide that?? The single 5.25" vent figures to a much larger volume than the two smaller ones so those are the way to go. Overall I like this design it gets F3 = 26Hz an 5dB louder so thumbs up. |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 700 Registered: Oct-10 | Go 2 ports. I dunnno why its just better to separate the subs. Allows u to play one sub if one blows |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 319 Registered: Aug-10 | driver displacement is .16 cubes. and when you say a vent diameter of 3-4 inches, are you talking aeroports? id like to go slot port unless it really just isnt practical. F3 at 26hz? what design is this? and slackin mack, if i do 2 ports, thats means i gotta separate the box into 2 enclosures right? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 455 Registered: May-09 | Ok will I am short on internal volume already so dual 4" flared vents is the only way numbers add up check this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-352 Using the full length of the vents of 17" figures come out like this: 0.99 cuft displacement for the vents. 0.32 cuft displacement for the subs. 4.25 cuft Vb (effective internal airspace). 5.56 cuft gross internal volume. That results in a ported enclosure of 4.25cuft@28Hz F3=26Hz 2x vent: 4"x17". Fi recommends up to 2,5 cuft per sub and we are at 2.12 now. So I am short 5.61-5.17= 0.39 cuft. If I used slots that would go way up, I don't know if you get this. Also if I make separate chambers that would take up volume so they need to share airspace. I need some inches to get that 0,39 cuft I am short. Another way to get feedback would be to contact bassman3 as its his business to do enclosures. Check one of his threads: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/691849.html He may even build it for you. |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 705 Registered: Oct-10 | Yea. I've always stuck to the rule of separate chambers and ports. Subs b ddoin dif shilt and turbulence,,.ect...I dunno, its just one o my things. Eeveryone will tell u dif. One big kerfed slot port looks killer tho. Talk to bassman3 he is the box wizard |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 320 Registered: Aug-10 | so 2 4" ports would really give me what i need and i wouldnt get a bunch of port noise? that seems so small. but then again ive never done aeroports so i wouldnt know. and ill definitely shoot dustin an email. he's helped me before |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 707 Registered: Oct-10 | A cut list if nothin else |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 457 Registered: May-09 | No you won't be getting port noise the vents are calculated within airspeed limits and besides the ones I recommended are flanged. Still I am short 0,39 cuft. need some more width or height or a mix. Also I cant get an excursion plot from this software which would be nice to have, I need to upgrade. |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 465 Registered: Oct-10 | Did you add the space of the baffle circles? IE: 12.5" outer diameter 11" motor ... so 11 divided by 2 = 5.5 * 5.5 * 3.14 * .75(MDF) / 1728 * 2 subs = .082452. Double baffle (1.5") = .1649 of a cube. Atleast a little closer if you didn't. Nevermind inches, wouldn't .25" make up for .4 cube? What a long thread, and we went back to where we started lol. Maybe re-think your box shape. You wanted it between the seats, right? Consider bucket seats in the rear, or .. uh, a T-shaped box, where the shorter "- & -" dimensions (like the top of the T) would be taking up some leg room in the back. Unless you need to seat 4 people comfortably. I'm running out of ideas. Take out your passenger seat, and make the person sit on the box, just add a back rest and a cushion. Interesting days when a girl sits there. Maybe don't drive your mother around. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 321 Registered: Aug-10 | haha i really like the passenger seat replacement idea. i thought about maybe making the box the bottom of the rear seat and adding a backrest. but I can squeeze an extra .4 cubes no problem. like i said, 5.17 cubes is just a plain rectangular box. if i just make a small section 12 inches wide to fit between the armrests, i can make the rest of the box 14 inches wide. what difference does it make anyway? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 459 Registered: May-09 | Good news Will you don't need to change a thing, nailed a bug: Vol port = 0.11068322 cuft Vol driver front mounted = 0.1178101 cuft (Done LH) Total Displacement = 0.45698665 cuft Vb = 4.71301335 cuft Drivers; 2x Fi Q 12" dual 2 ohm. So the box will be ported 4.71 cuft@28Hz F3 = 25.57Hz 2x Vent 4"x15.2" http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-352&AID=1457539&PID=440939 You will need to cut the ports to spec. The response before cabin gain is:  To get better linear response I could tune higher if you want but that 2dB cut won't be a big deal I think. Please do the math yourself just in case, maybe take the specs to bassman3 to see what he thinks. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 322 Registered: Aug-10 | now the box is going to have to be a little bigger, since the cutout diameter for the Q's is 11.125". my box would have to be at least 12.625" wide where I mount the subs. Id probably have one in front of the armrests, and one behind them. dont know how much of a difference it makes. Hell I might even make it 13" wide so I have a little bit of wiggle room when cutting the hole |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 462 Registered: May-09 | 12.8" will suffice in my opinion and the extra volume won't hurt, the ports will have to fit on the top as well, you have the space so I don't see a problem. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 323 Registered: Aug-10 | yeah thatll work. i can put them right between the subs where the armrests are |
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Silver Member Username: Lord_huggingtonOntario Canada Post Number: 469 Registered: Oct-10 | I think rear-fire ports would work best, given that the box isn't touching the back seat. When the port is further from the listening position or atleast pointing back to reflect the wave it'll get a little deeper. Even consider down-fire so that you have an arm rest. Keep the subs close together with the port as far to the rear as possible. A box instead of a back seat w/back rests would be so fetch. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 464 Registered: May-09 | Ok Will so for 12.8 in instead of 12 figures are as follows: External Dimensions; L = 43 in H = 22 in D = 12.8 in Gross internal volume = 5.56335359 cuft Vol port = 0.98756778e-1 cuft Vol driver front mounted = 0.1178101 cuft Total Displacement = 0.43313376 cuft Vb = 5.13021983 cuft Drivers 2x Fi Q 12" DVC 2 ohm Enclosure spec: 5.13@28Hz F3=25.37Hz 2x Vent L = 13.58 in Dia = 4 in Yes ports should be kept 2-3 diameters from each other. It would be wise to send this to Bassman3 for review. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 476 Registered: May-09 | Will I have finally upgraded from WinISD to better software and reviewed models for vent size and all disagree with WinISD on minimum port area so I strongly recommend to check with bassman3, maybe I will post back something working with the 22x43x12.8. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 488 Registered: May-09 | Ok Will this design will deliver F3 = 27.5Hz as measured in the curve and has no port noise issues. It's expected to produce 131dB@31Hz after cabin gain. External Dimensions; L = 43 in H = 22 in D = 12.8 in It uses 3 ports D = 4" x L = 17" These ports should be put like this: PORT - SUB - PORT - SUB - PORT Port airspeed is 4% of Mach at full power so no port noise. The problem with WinISD allows up to 16% of Mach while many agree that it should never be above 5% Box Properties Type: Vented Box Shape: Prism, square Vb = 4,928 cu.ft Fb = 31,94 Hz F3 = 27,50 Hz (baseline is gain at 50-70Hz) Fill = none No. of Vents = 3 Vent shape = round Vent ends = two flared Dv = 4, in Lv = 17, in Square Prism Box Parts 1 Top, 1 Bottom: 12,8 x 43 in 0,75 (thick) in 1 Front, 1 Back: 20,5 x 41,5 in 0,75 (thick) in 2 Sides: 20,5 x 12,8 0,75 (thick) in Vent Parts 3 Ducts: 4,25, 4 x 17 in Dacron damping can help reduce group delay among other things you may use it but it will cost you a little bottom end. Also subsonic filtering below 20Hz is recommended. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 324 Registered: Aug-10 | wow thats amazing. haha you are a master at this stuff! i'll have to tweak the width of the box somewhat, but would it make any difference as long as I keep the same volume? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 490 Registered: May-09 | Yes if internal volume is preserved no major changes should occur unless the internal flange of the port nears too much the bottom of the box. Anyways since the model is already entered on the software, if you give me the new dimensions I can recalculate very easily. Some airspace is also needed above the external flange of the ports or the box will detune. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 325 Registered: Aug-10 | yeah its not gunna be any major changes. I just need to make like a 7 inch section of the box 11 or 12 inches wide to fit between my armrests |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 492 Registered: May-09 | Will the mod will take up 0,1815 cuft and you could recover it by setting height to 22.67" if my calculations are correct. Also are you using the DVC 1 ohm version of the Q?? |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 326 Registered: Aug-10 | yeah theyre dual 1's. and im not sure how precise i can get with the tools i have. so should i just round up to the nearest quarter inch? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 494 Registered: May-09 | Anything between 22.7-23.0 inch will do perfectly, when you decide let me know the number and I will recalculate. |
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Silver Member Username: MakinblakMonroe/Monticello, La/Ar Post Number: 717 Registered: Oct-10 | Joe. Could u help me out with some box area/tuning for a soloX 18 in the near future? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 498 Registered: May-09 | I can help you right now, there are 3 suggestions for vented enclosures and 2 for sealed : http://kicker.com/sites/default/files/2007%20SoloX%2018%20Sub%20b01%20Web.pdf If you attempt to build a custom sub based on this you will have to measure it's T/S parameters though..wish you luck with that. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1032 Registered: May-09 | Hi will, I was just wondering what did you end up doing and how did it went. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 327 Registered: Aug-10 | well basketball season started, and all projects came to a halt. i decided to just go with one of my Q 12's in a 2.5 ft^3 slot ported box tuned to about 32hz, as i didnt really feel like building a complicated box for both of them that would have to fit like a glove. i got all my wood cut and its been sitting on the side of my house for a good couple months now. even drilled through the firewall to run my 1/0 and threw my deka under the rear seat |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1047 Registered: May-09 | Yes that design was like a nightmare to figure out and build...lol anyways hope you can comment on how it all came out when you put it together. You certainly have enough amp to melt that Q! so go easy on it |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 328 Registered: Aug-10 | haha well my Q's are fully loaded, and i beat on em all day with the mmats at 1 ohm, so i think 1 of the Q's at 2 ohms should be okay |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1049 Registered: May-09 | Ohh right you said those were double 1 ohm not double 2 so wired in series it's safe.. |
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Silver Member Username: Nevertoomuchbass2 Fi Q 12s, Mmats 3000.1 Post Number: 329 Registered: Aug-10 | yeahh itll probably get warm, but should be just fine |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1059 Registered: May-09 | Ok will nice then, let us know how it went.. |
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