Money is not an issue! What are the BEST subs on the market?
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | Alright i need some serious help, i am thinking of buying 2 13.5 JLW7's and powering each one with a Phoenix Gold Xenon 1200.1. Im putting in 4 Sets of JL XR650's but i am now haveing second thoughts about JL. Are they the best on the market? or should i consider AudioBahn or Kicker? I want to hit HIGH 160's BUT i want it to be clean, again money is not an issue. Any reccomendations would be greatly appreciated! |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | Also what about ID MAX, and has anyone heard of Shocker Subs and Shredder Amps? |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 805 Registered: May-04 | First, there is no best in car audio. It's all subjective after a certain point and depends on what your ears prefer. Go to an audio shop and listen to as many sets as you can, then choose. I wouldn't put that Phoenix Gold amp on two 13W7's, it will underpower them. FORGET Audiobahn for high end car audio, their quality just plain out sucks, they have a very high failure rate. If you plan to hit high 160's then you can also forget getting sound quality equipment in the first place. High 160s will blow your eardrums out in a matter of seconds. That being said, high 160s aren't just something you can accomplish by plopping money on a table, and don't come with a specific shopping list, they come with installation experience. Clean also isn't accomplished at 160db or from subwoofers capable of producing that, so basically you're narrowed to one or the other. Two 13W7s off of two 1000/1 JL amps in ported boxes will hit around 150db, maybe a little above. That PG amp won't get them to 150db. If you need more than 150 for everyday driving you're plain out crazy. If you plan to compete, though, I recommend you look into the new Resonant Engineering MT's when they come out, then consult people more experienced in SPL than I am, I honestly could care less about SPL and will admit that I don't know all the "tricks of the trade" because I never wanted to learn. |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-04 | What is a good range to think about If i want it to Hit VERY hard, and still be clean, and what would be a good set up for such a system, i have already removed the back seat, and the whole car is dynamatted down, i am just at the crossroads right now and am not certain what path to take, i am very pleased with the 3 10W3v2's that i have right now, but i want more power and much more bass |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4070 Registered: Dec-03 | Jon is dead on there. if you want to hit high 160s, you're going to dedicate your entire car to that. It's not going to be a car you can drive. you'll want about four 300A alternators, you'll need to lay a lot of spray sound deadener like Lizardskin or similar and lots of dynamat, then you'll need to know the exact sympathetic frequency of the cabin. You'll also need to find the transfer point for the vehicle, and probably weld in reinforcement beams and replace any glass with lexan. After that, you'll give up everything up to teh front seats for speaker enclosure space and probably go with a 6th order bandpass enclosure tuned to about 55-65Hz. You'll want high excursion, large surface are drivers like the RE X.X.X. or MT subs, you'll want at least 12 of them with at least 1Kwatt per sub.. that's on the conservative side, and not taking into account the physics you'll need to work into designing the enclosures or set up the rest of the system. When you hit that high 160dB range, it'll be for about one and a half seconds and it's all over.. it's called burping, and done for competitions. you don't sit in the car. it has to be done from outside the sealed vehicle, so plan to use a remote or a head unit wired outside of the car. I've been in full sized vans hitting 168dB, and they ran 12 15" subs with about 8Kwatts of power. They were mostly factory demo vehicles and had about $20K+ put into the systems. Are you sure money isn't an object, or are you just wet-dreaming and pulling our chains? |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Jul-04 | Also are the resonant engineering subs clean in quality or are they simply made for competition? Lastly what about the New PG Titanium Elite 12 |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | First off, no money is not an issue, i did not know that hitting that high would cause for such needs in the car. The dealer that i am going through lead me to beleive otherwise. However, if that is the case, then what about around the 150 range? 2 13W7's and as Jonathan reccomended, the JL1000.1 per sub? Would that sound and hit sufficent enough to reach that level? |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Jul-04 | I do not want the car to become useless, and if 150 DB is very nice in quality and strength then i will suffice with that. I would just like some suggestions as to what i should look into |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4074 Registered: Dec-03 | sure 150s is very doable.. high 160s is world class dBdragracing competition level. remember, every 3dB you go up is equal to double the power.. every 10dB you go up is ten times the power.. big difference. anyway RE subs are terrific for both SQ and SPL. Very good subs, similar in design to the Adire Brahmas. two 13W7s with dedicated 1000/1 amps will put you into the 150 range pretty sure. You'll want to vent the rear deck to couple airspace with the trunk and go with slot vented enclosures for the subs. that'll take around 4cu ft total for the sub enclosures. for good SQ you'll want to balance this all out with a strong front stage too.. along with proper signal processing and equalization to tweak it all and get it sounding right. that said you should have a pretty sweet setup |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4075 Registered: Dec-03 | sorry its after 2am here. I just reread what I wrote. let me clarify that double the power is +3dB (general rule of thumb) double the audible volume is +10dB and ten times the power. |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 8 Registered: Jul-04 | Alright well i decided that i would like the 12W7 not the 13, due to space restrictions (going into a VERY small car) but still being powered with the Jl1000.1. When you say, strong front stage, what does that mean? And also, something i have never had answered, i Am removing the rear seats, (99 Mustang) and turning the subs inward toward the front, and i want to place a few sets of mids and tweets back there. Is there any way to run all of them on one amp, or should i look into another PG Tantrum 600.4? |
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Silver Member Username: Davids2004Houston, TX USA Post Number: 326 Registered: Jun-04 | You may want to take a look at digital design subs. www.ddaudio.com My buddy hit a 138-140 with one DD 10. |
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Silver Member Username: GrmncrsnbrVA Post Number: 238 Registered: Jun-04 | Front stage is the speakers in the front of the car. A good sq car comes from the from the front stage not the low end. So put some good cash into your speakers also. I wouldnt run all that stuff of one amp since your subs and your speakers are going to have very different RMS ranges. Im not sure if jonathan read your first post right about having one PG amp PER sub. you might be ok with that but since JLs are weird with their ohmage I would only use their amps. As far as front speakers I have recently become fond of MB Quart and Boston Acoustics and Ive always liked infinity perfects. |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 9 Registered: Jul-04 | Alright well based on what i have heard, this is what i am going to go with... Two JL12W7's or 2DD9900'2 and power each one with thier own JL 1000.1. As for the Speakers, im going to go with the XR Series of the JL Line and power each set with a PG Tantrum 600.4 or power both with the JL900.7 ... With all of that in mind, i am not sure as to what other type of hardware i am going to need. I take it i should be running 0 Gauge wires, but the store i work with said something about CAPS and FARADS. Honestly not too sure what those are and where i can get good ones, also what about a box? Thanks for all the help thus far. I am open to suggestions |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4076 Registered: Dec-03 | the 12W7 will be overpowered with a 1000/1 use a 500/1 or use the 1000/1 for two 12W7s front stage. you want all of the mids/highs in the front of the car for good SQ. forget rear fill entirely. put a good two or three way component set up front in the doors and dash and use an amp for that, and a separate amp for the subs. that will give the best results. |
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Silver Member Username: GrmncrsnbrVA Post Number: 240 Registered: Jun-04 | from what i have heard jl speakers arent very good i have never heard them myself but i know ppl who love their subs but no the speakers. |
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New member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 10 Registered: Jul-04 | Glass, what do you think about putting an extra component set into the front, i already have the Xr series component set in my front dash, i just want to add another set, and maybe 2 more sets of tweeters. Is it completely useless to put any speakers in the back? I love the way the component set sounds, but i want it more crisp. (Im one of those annoying people who cant have it loud enough when it comes to the mids and highs) can i run 2 component sets off of the one PG600.4? The guy that i buy all of my stuff from, has told me that i could throw whatever i wanted at the 12W7's and they would be able to take it. Would just one 1000.1 make each W7 reach thier peak limit? |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4078 Registered: Dec-03 | ok, to keep this simple, go with a second set of the same separates you have up front. you can put both mids in each door, and one tweeter ine ach door flush, and one in the dash location off the windshield, or in the A pillar. as for rear fill, read this article I wrote: http://www.wickedcases.com/caraudio/rearfill.html as for JL power handling, check this chart out: http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html |
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Bronze Member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 11 Registered: Jul-04 | Alright i get your point. If i want to use one amp per sub, im going to need the 13W7 (based on the chart) So im going to try for that. I get the point with the rear fill, and yes it does seem a bit useless. If you can help me out with one last thing (CAPS and FARADS) i take it CAPS are capacitors. But i dont know what i should go with and where i can get the best ones. Thanks for all the help! this should be one nasty system when im done |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4079 Registered: Dec-03 | capacitors are all basically the same. It's a fairly simple electrical component, and usually only varies by rating and features like if it has a digital voltage display or a distribution block bolted to the top. as for what they are and when to use one, you'll want to read two more pages I wrote: http://www.wickedcases.com/caraudio/capacitors.html http://www.wickedcases.com/caraudio/charging.html those two will cover caps and charging systems. that's all stuff you'll need to know setting up a high end system and making sure your car can keep up. |
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Bronze Member Username: MarkdUK Post Number: 22 Registered: Apr-04 | i'd personally go with one 1000/1 per 12w7. it'll only be slightly overpowering them, you could always turn the gain down slightly if it worried you. a 500/1 won't get them moving enough to do them justice, looking at those charts, 500w is in the green zone, whereas i'd rather be in the orange zone, just pushing them that bit harder when i reallly want to crank the system. |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4082 Registered: Dec-03 | mark, the 500/1 puts out about 670 watts RMS on a scope the 1000/1 puts out closer to 1400 watts RMS. gains have no effect on the power output of the amplifier. the peak output is still the same, and both output and power supply for the JL amp are regulated. gains only match input voltage to input stage of the amp. if the gains are too low, the amp won't have a clean signal to amplify. If they are too high, the amp will be overdriven and it will cause distortion. |
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Bronze Member Username: MarkdUK Post Number: 23 Registered: Apr-04 | aah, i didn't realise those amps put out that much power. why do they under rate them so much? with the gain on the amp, wouldn't a smaller signal make the amp produce less power, like if i turn the volume down on the head unit? thats all i was thinking, if the gain on the amp is set at less, then it would be the same as turning the head unit down? |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4090 Registered: Dec-03 | nope. input sensitivity doesn't work that way, but I see your reasoning. JL's amps are very underrated. why is up for debate, but like many of the higher end US amp makers, it's the case. older RF, Orion, PPI etc were the same way. |
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Bronze Member Username: PinheadLenexa, KS US Post Number: 12 Registered: Jul-04 | So what exactly is the "correct" way to set the gain on the amplifier? I've got a Profile 800 running 2 10" Kicker CVR's and would absolutely hate to find out down the road that I wasn't doing it right. Do I have to hook up an O'Scope or something? And how good of an amp is the Profile? I've had no problems with it, but just wondering where I'm settting. |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4121 Registered: Dec-03 | http://p079.ezboard.com/fcaraudiotalkfrm27.showMessage?topicID=34.topic |
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Unregistered guest | I know you all dont like audiobahn, but i would like some help anyway. I am going to get 2 audiobahn AW12O6T's that run at 1100 rms with 2 Audiobahn a2300hct amps, 1 amp for each sub. Then i am going to get another amp to power four 6X4's. Any idea of how it would be hooked up and any idea if the stock alternator on an f150 would work. |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4127 Registered: Dec-03 | what we don't like is when someone tries to crosspost and hijack other peoples' threads instead of just starting his own to ask a new question.  |
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New member Username: ApuengineeirPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | ok i'm new to th eboard but have been in the feaild for a awile. first off what type of car do you have sean? also two cars i know of personaly and one i did has hit 156db plus with out the use of a walled off car, or reinforments. 160+ is however not a daily driver but is possible. if you want to hit above 155db then you won't use jl. doing the math and i don't mean just looking at numbers. i pluged in the t/s perameters into my computer and all test show the rockford fosgate power t2 12" sub and the mtx thunder 9500 12" are way above even the w7-13. now as far as sound quality jl designs their subs to sound good in anthing form a perfect box to a trashcan so regardless with a jl you'll get great if not perfect sound. however if you're looking for output try a true spl sub and not a boarder line spl/sq sub. spl is not musical at all. spl is all abou making nothing but the air in your car move so it can vibrate the heck out of the mic. try the new cerwin vega stroker pro, the orion h2, planet audio fu series, mtx 9500 series, rockfordfosgate power t2 and if you are really about getting loud save up and get a digital designs 9500 subwoofer. oh and lastly be prepared to power a entire city off your cars elctircal system. |
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New member Username: ApuengineeirPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-04 | oh and yes the solo x is a nasty sub but its just below th erf power t2 and 9500 12" subs. also i cannot see myself shelling out 1000 bucks to just by one and man the cost to power one its crazy!! |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4141 Registered: Dec-03 | brandon, there's a world of difference between 156dB and "high 160s" which we'll call 168dB for the sake of argument. that's over twice the volume. 156 is fairly easy. Not cheap, but easy enough to reach if that's your goal, and it can be done in a daily driver. I was doing 151 in my car with two twelves in a vented enclosure without any real amount of effort. your software is flawed if you think a 9512 will come anywhere close to a 13W7 as well by the way. I've used both in the real world and the MTX isn't even close to a W7. The specs don't tell the whole story. If you're after SPL though I agree go with a sub meant for SPL. I'd suggest he wait and pick up some of the RE MT subs as soon as they're released. The stroker pros are very nice as well as you mentioned. I just haven't been at all impressed with anything MTX has offered in the way of subs.. ever. their amplifiers are very nice though, for the price. anyway if you're doing sanctioned events for SPL, and being measured on a termlabs X mic and you want to hit the 168dB range, you'd best be ready to have an undrivable car that you can sink at least $25K into for the system. |
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Bronze Member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 13 Registered: Jul-04 | Alright im back with another question, what about 1 Kicker Solo X 18" and powering it with 2 PG Xenon 1200.1's? can i hit around 155? Or would that be a waste of my money, the company that is going to install it, said that would be my best route...any thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4160 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't like the solo X or any other square sub. if you want a good, hard hitting 18" sub go with the Eclipse Titanium Pro 18", or Stroker Pro 18" Those two subs will kick butt with adequate power in the proper box. |
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Pioneer kicks a** Unregistered guest | 9 Pioneer ts-w5000's with 115,000w will get you 172.2 decibels. (the world record) 2076_4057_56825958%2C00.html,http://pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2076_4 057_56825958,00.html |
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Bronze Member Username: JlaudiomustangUniversity Heights, OHIO USA Post Number: 14 Registered: Jul-04 | Alright im back with another question, what about 1 Kicker Solo X 18" and powering it with 2 PG Xenon 1200.1's? can i hit around 155? Or would that be a waste of my money, the company that is going to install it, said that would be my best route...any thoughts? |
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Silver Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 827 Registered: May-04 | You can get subs with just as much SPL, better sound quality and do so with much less power. 2 Resonant Engineering X.X.X. 15's will crack 150's easily with a ported box and sound a LOT better (They will also hit harder than the Solo X). An 18" RE X.X.X. (or two) would rip you apart. Give them 1000 watts RMS or more each. You could also look into Adire Audio Brahmas, Brahma Extremes, W7's, etc. Lots of better options out there. |
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New member Username: ApuengineeirPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | alright i have heard so much about these re subs and even looked at their specs. has any one actualy heard them and more importantly has anyone actualy been meterd with them? from what i here they are great subs but evry one is waiting for their oders to be filled. sounds like a small time company with a rep they can't handle. also i would not compare a 13w7 to a 12" sub becouase it is not, that sub doesn't even fit in a standard 12 inch cut out, also becouse the surround covers the screws the cone area is not the same as a normal 12" sub. thus its closer to a 15" then a 12 and thats why jl hasn't made a 15"w7. now the 12w7 vs. a thunder9512 is more of a match and what a match concidering price and capability. 160db is no small feat and 156db isn't for that mater either, 156db in a daily driver is easily possible but with some heavy duty equipment. i have put togeather a focus that hits 156db with one palnet audio fu 15 and a mtx 1501d off of 4guage power cable no cap and with the stock charging system including that crappy battery ford puts in the car. keep in mide however that the box was 4.5 cu.ft the excluding the deispalment of the sub and ports. not good for getting food and taking people around. but since money is no issue concider getting two 9500 digital design 15" subs and a army of 1000watt amps that you can strap togeather. and again sean what kind of car are you going to use becouse it doesn't matter what sub you want if you don't have enoough air space for each sub to perfom to its max. lastly i don't think anyone likes the solo x 18 becoaus they may not have herd one with enough power, it takes somthing like 10,000 watts each. most spl systems have 10,000 watts going to their entire system let alone one sub. |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4215 Registered: Dec-03 | I don't know of anyone waiting for RE orders. eD yes, RE no. I know plenty of people with RE subs, and quite a few of them compete in events. Is SPL all you care about? as for the JL 13W7 it still has 32mm Xmax vs the RE 12" 38mm Xmax. the RE will hold its own against a W7 just fine, and the 12W7 will still kick the snot out of a 9512. That MTX isn't that impressive in comparison, but it is cheaper. Solo X.. don't even get me started on those crappy square subs Kicker makes and their multitude of problems and failures. |
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DestinationNoWur Unregistered guest | Where can I buy one of the new Phoenix Gold Titanium Elite MPH10K Amplifier's ? Also around how much would it cost ? |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Hfl, Ny Usa Post Number: 938 Registered: Dec-03 | " Pioneer ts-w5000's with 115,000w will get you 172.2 decibels. (the world record) 2076_4057_56825958%2C00.html,2076_4,http://pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2076_4 057_56825958,00.html" what about alma gates? and that guy with like 12 15" strokers hitting 174.3 dB or something |
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Anonymous | 175.5 dB with 15 Cerwin-Vega 12's not to expensive of a sub either http://www.cerwinvega.com/products/mobileaudio/mobileaudio_news.html#8 |
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DestinationNoWur Unregistered guest | Can anyone suggest an amp or more then one amp to power 2 Eclipse SW9182Pro -18" Titanium woofers? Countinuous Power Handling - 3,000W |
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Silver Member Username: Its_bacon12Hfl, Ny Usa Post Number: 974 Registered: Dec-03 | cadence makes some very powerful amps so does us amps |
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Gold Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, Michigan USA Post Number: 4343 Registered: Dec-03 | zapco C2K 4KW www.zapco.com |
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