Hey fellas, I am looking at getting a new front stage amp. I just got a new set of 6.5'' CDT ES-06 components to replace my CL's and want to upgrade my intermediate quality ZX650.4 for the components. I am not a huge audiophile, as I love SQ but am still learning some of the aspects. I'm not sure whether to go active or not which brings the first question.
Everywhere I turn it seems as though you need to really to know your stuff to set up an active set up properly, but am not sure as to what i need to know. Lets say my active crossover runs my 6.5 mids up to 2500hz with a 12db slope transitioning into the tweeters which run up to 20k+ obviously. Why cant i just use these basic references only using the amps crossovers and filters, and just have more control over the crossover point, gain, etc? is there something im missing?
Oh yea and back to the main topic lol, The amps I have been looking at (2 or 4 channel options listed depending on active or passive) are ARC KS300.2, ARC KS300.4, Incriminator Audio 6.4, Sundown SAX 100.4, ZED Kronos, and one that I dont think belongs but since I am a fan AQ 4X90. The last choice also brings one last question, How much of a SQ difference is there from a good quality AQ, to lets say, the ARC? noticable? I have read about coloration and such, and I would like to say I want a natural amp that does not change or alter the music from its original state if that makes sense - sorry tired hope everything makes sense lol.....I WOULD HIGHLY APPRECIATE ANSWERS to these questions as I have done a TON of forum searching, which as everyone knows is biased and full of BS, and just really want to get to the bottom of it and make a decision in the end lol...wheeww..Thank you
As for choosing an amp, really the amp isn't nearly as important as choosing the right speakers, and placing them well, sound treating the car interior, stuff like that. power is power, as long as the amp has sufficient current, and a solid power supply reserve to handle peak demands. Any well made amp will serve and you won't hear an audible difference between two good amps. Don't get lost in specs and numbers.
As for active setups, they allow control over time delay and phase shift as well as cut/boost, Q, and cutoff. You can do a "poor man's" active setup using the amp filters, but most amps don't have the setting flexibility to do bandpass filtering. They are only HPF or LPF, not both at once allowing separate Q for each. Example: my system is a 3-way front stage, so the midrange needs high and low cufoff, and preferably separate Q for each. Anyway using both head unit and amp filters together for things like rear fill bandpass filtering. That one isn't too hard to do.
with a simple two way front stage it's not as complicated to set up. I usually like to use kick pods for the mid/tweeter, and aim them cross-car. Keep the signal path unobstructed if possible, and use time alignment to adjust for signal path differences. I'd start with the midrange HPF @ maybe 100-120Hz, 12dB slope, and the LPF set to about 3500Hz, 12dB tweeter, set at 5KHz, 12dB to start. sub can be at 50-60Hz, 18dB
adjust from there. It helps if you have waterfall graphs for each driver to see where it naturally drops off, and where it spikes in response, so you can filter for that. If you go active, you'll want a 1/3 octave EQ on each channel as well, so you can shape each channel's response. Put the EQ(s) right after the head unit's output and you can usually get away with 2 channels of EQ, before you split signal to each amp channel/speaker.
I disagree with an amp being an amp. I could hear an audible difference in many amps personally, of course the crossovers that are used in the amps were far from close. Linkwitz riley is what ZED uses if not mistaken, and I am not 100% what Arc uses. The Arc KS series amplifier is a real nice amp.
I would suggest going the route of Arc for a clean signal. Zenon built class a/b's do not impress me personally.
Thanks for the great replies, so in the end, is it worth going active? is there a big SQ difference if you do it right vs passive? I know this sounds like a noob question but i cannot help it as that 99 percent of the people i have met with systems think Rockford Fosgate or Memphis are the best sh** made and the couple that know there stuff decently aren't into SQ, just getting loud using good equipment. Therefore my front stage is the best Ive heard so far.
For future reference also, what do you (Glasswolf) use then to crossover your front stage? I have a two way set as of now if that makes a difference. And as far as install, I will soon be selling my current car and getting the new style grand prix (2004-08). 6.5 mids will go in stock door spots with the doors deadened and i have made tweeter pods that go in the a-pillars on approx 45 degree angles facing toward middle of the car. Seems to work good for me right now. Got the idea from here:
some of these higher end companies are well aware of all this, and spend a huge amount of time designing their crossover's im a big dls fan, and i know the majority of the money you spend, is not really to buy great speakers, but more of having decent quality speakers, that have been tested to use the best crossover possible with them. so with that said, to keep things simple for your install, you can know buying a higher end component set up, the company has efficiently designed the crossovers used with the speakers to get great results. if you really know what you are doing, you might just be better off buying separate drivers, if you understand their specs like glasswolf was saying and bandpass from their to get a great response.
but why not buy a quality amp? most should have the capabilities to run active if you choose, and are built with that in mind. i would personally prefer an arc audio amp, over a more powerful rockford fosgate amp. but thats just me.
When it comes to SQ, fock what anyone tells you on what sounds better. SQ is opinionated and only you know what you like. I would suggest trying active and passive to see if either works for you best. What I like, may not be what you like. Same with crossover settings and so forth.
Yes I know what you are saying as far as your idea of SQ vs mine. Something everyone should keep in mind when comparing companies that make great components such as CDT and DLS. In the near future I would like to try out some SEAS or Morel Tweets, only bad thing is there are a TON of SEAS tweeters and I honestly don't know what set to choose. Anyways, when the time comes I'm going with the Arc, just not sure on KS300.2 or 300.4 depending on active or not, with 300.4 I could do either but would have to bridge for passive and lose my left/right separation which sucks, although most songs I have listened to its not much of an issue. Thanks again for the input fellas. feel free to share any more opinions lol the more info the better.
a crossover isn't an amp. the amplifiers, when compared, should be completely transparent. That's a good amplifier. If you hear a difference, then something is coloring your signal, and that's bad. The crossover isn't factored into the equation when comparing amplifiers. Again I'll refer you to Richard Clark's amplifier challenge, which I can paste here if need be. In a car where you cannot audibly hear distortion below around 10%, it becomes very hard to really compare audible differences in two amplifiers in double-blind test. That said, my point is that the amplifiers are the least important item in regards to what will make the biggest difference in the audible quality of a system, and spending hundres, or even thousands more for an amplifier because of some claimed superiority in the audible spectrum, is a waste of money.
It's worth going active, if you have the money, because you can go entirely digital up to the amplifier stage that way, and avoid issues with things like phase shift and noise introduction from passive filter networks. Active also allows much finer control over the entire system, if you're tuning everything with the use of a 1/3 octave EQ, and an RTA. As for my car, I have a Pioneer P99RS, which has the crossover, EQ, etc all built into the ehad unit for a 4-way system. Prior to that I had the Pioneer Premier P9 combination, and before that, the Alpine F#1status CDA-7990 and DSP unit, all of which do essentially the same tasks.
Some aspects of a SQ system are subjective, some are not. You can't blanket the entire catagory with such a vague statement. A good soundstage and good imaging are pretty easy to tell. So is a well balanced system. A C-weighted sound curve is easily measurable objectively on an RTA. Timbre of the system is on the other hand, subjective, but that's the case with any audio system, be it designed for SQ or not.
I read through very quickly but i don't believe you listed what you were using for a head unit. I have notice Huge differences in sound quality with head units alone.
It is very nice having a very capable head unit as listed above. I know there are a number of amps out there that do have band pass crossover built in im just not sure of the names. I think the new ppi Power class units have them but im not sure on the quality. If you really want to go active you can always look in to separate crossovers and eq's.
The amplifier itself can contain noise. Richard Clark can not tell me what I have and have not heard. Sorry, but yes, there is a difference in amplifiers, and if you do not know this, then I am not sure what to say.
Then prove Clark wrong and claim the ten grand prize.
The differences you pay for in a higher end amp are better components internally leading to tighter tolerances and longer life, as well as more headroom. The numbers game with specs generally is all on paper and can't really be heard in a car. This is why I recommend people don't pay so much attention to comparing things like THD, or SNR. They end up spending so much time looking at numbers that they miss the forest for the trees. As I said however, if you can hear an audible difference between two amplifiers with the gains set properly, at the same output power, both playing within their dynamic limits, then one or both of your amplifiers are coloring the output. That's not the amplifier you want, and it's most commoonly caused by equalization/EQing circuitry like a bass boost circuit, which I recommend leaving off on sub amps anyway.
I was also curious about the clark test, and did my own a while back. I could not tell the diffrence. Heres a vid I made of the comparision. Idealy, each driver should have been in its own sealed box..But hey it was fun..