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Bronze Member Username: Andy614Post Number: 43 Registered: Feb-10 | I have two twelve inch kickers that are 8 ohm. I would never buy 8 ohm subs but i them from my dad so what amp could I get for them? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 14159 Registered: Jun-04 | what model kickers are they |
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Bronze Member Username: Andy614Post Number: 44 Registered: Feb-10 | Idk they're older. It says kicker in yellow on the front. That's all I really know. Do you know any 8 ohm stable amps? |
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Silver Member Username: JbpittPittsburgh, Pa. Usa Post Number: 405 Registered: Jul-09 | Im not to fimilar with those kickers,but it sounds like they maybe the comp series. I believe there around 250wrms a piece. If you have 2 svc 8 ohm subs. You can wire them down to 4 ohm. http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/woofer_configurations.asp?Q=2&I=81 |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13643 Registered: Dec-03 | check the magnets for model number. They are probably "C" "F" or "Solobaric" subs. Most likely C or F series. Knowing which they are I can suggest the right box specs. That said, wire the two subs in parallel for a 4 ohm load, and get a 2 channel amp, and bridge it. That's the best way to deal with two 8 ohm subs, really. |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 26 Registered: Jan-10 | the best way to deal with 8 ohms is the same as 4 or 2 ohm OK, dont UNDER power them bro,use 10 or 12 gauge o2 free sp. wire and use the right enclosure for the sound you want. youve got comps right not the VRs? well the book says 250rms in a sealed box with a 25hz subsonic filter.In a vented or a spl{large vented} enclosure you will get deeper lows but less power handling capabilities due to the violent reflexes of the woofer suspension.I would still recomend a class D amp maybe an alpine mrp500 or kenwood kac710d I believe is the model name its 600 watts rms at 4 ohms which will be the load you will draw in parallel. you always want an amp to be 100 watts min. over your speakrs capabilities because underpowering causes distortion which blows subs not cleanpower. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andy614Post Number: 45 Registered: Feb-10 | Ok thanks fellas once again |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13661 Registered: Dec-03 | you can't underpower a speaker. not possible. the gauge of speaker wire depends on the pwoer it carries. see here: http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf He never said he had comps. He said he didn't know the model, which is why I told him where to find the model of the subs. He could have comps, or C series, or F series, or solobarics, etc.. Stillwater has been making speakers for decades. a sealed box doesn't need a subsonic filter. at all. you're backasswards on the sealed vs ported. sealed will play lower than ported. ported increases the mechanical power handling of the driver. underpowering does NOT BLOW SUBS turning the gain up too high to compensate for a perceived lack of power blows subs IF the amp is capable of producing enough power above the rated power handling of the driver to burn up the voice coils from heat build up caused by teh DC voltage across those coils. Where did you hear all of this BS you're regurgitating to people on here? You can typically use an amp up to 40 to 50% larger than the rated power handling of a speaker without fear of damaging the sub. http://www.glasswolf.net/papers/speakerpwr.html |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 31 Registered: Jan-10 | THOSE POWER HANDLING SPECS ARE OUT OF MY CVR OWNERS MANUAL WHICH COVERS REGULAR COMPS ALSO. stillwater TESTS THEIR SUBS IN A SEALED FREEKIN BOX WITH A SUBSONIC FILTER I NEVER SAID DUDE NEEDED ONE (THOSE DRIVERS WONT PICK UNDER 20HZ ANYWAY) AND SEALED ENCLOSUERS ALLOW GREATER HANDLING CAPABILITIES GLASS IS SAYS IT RIGHT IN THE MANUAL. NOT TO MENTION SPL ENCLOSURES WIN THE COMPS DOWN IN M.I.A. WHERE LOW TONES STARTED AND SPL(volume) boxes are ported/vented. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13678 Registered: Dec-03 | http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/ "The ported enclosure system is characterized by lower distortion and higher power handling in the system's operating range" My point about your power handling specs is that we don't know what drivers he has. there were kicker subs around long before the comp and CVR series came out. I know. I was a kicker dealer before those subs existed. the only reason kicker used the ISF on a sealed box was to avoid wasting power trying to produce notes below the range of human hearing. The driver doesn't really have any fear of unloading though, like it would with a ported box tuned at 40+Hz. the reason ported enclosures are used for SPL is due to the enclosure gain combined with transfer function and cabn gain. Also, the increased power handling for the enclosure alignment. No offense, but your manual is incorrect. The thing with a ported box however, is that below that tuned frequency, the box rolls off like a brick wall, and the ability to control the driver becomes very difficult. Low tones didn't start in miami by the way. If you want to learn the history of car audio, read this: http://www.glasswolf.net/papers/history101.html by the way, no need for the caps lock. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andy614Post Number: 46 Registered: Feb-10 | i think im just gonna bridge them to make them 4 ohm. but thanks for all the adivce guys |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13693 Registered: Dec-03 | You mean wire them in parallel, right Andy? They are single coil subs? Did you ever find any model # markings on them? |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 33 Registered: Jan-10 | all personal crusades aside, noone will ever stop "bridging their subs" and bridge their "amps"lol. Its like whipping a dead horse. where does the word "bridge" originate??? well when i bought my first set of kicker comps (they were called "seperates" back in 91' because they were to be sealed individually) at 300 a pair, the dealer explained to me that the wire connecting the + and the - from the opposite drivers (wired in series)was called the"BRIDGE" due to the fact that the the wire ran parallel(straight across)to the two subs and the signal walked across that "bridge" connecting the two speakers thus making them seem as "ONE" whether or not the amplifier is "bridged" or not. Hence the saying "BRIDGEABLE" or able to be bridged. So regardless what people call their setup,as long as the ish is wired correctly, WHO CARES??? all the schooling in the world isnt gonna make your system sound right. you have to know what your hearing too.You cant teach Talent GLASS.Can you??? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 14168 Registered: Jun-04 | kicker comp 12's are 150 rms each |
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Bronze Member Username: M_kimmel843Post Number: 24 Registered: Apr-10 | No one can teach talent but, talent has nothing to do with the education and/or the ignorance of people. So yes, one can teach the proper terms and phrases that go along with car audio or any other kind of trade. Also, schooling can make your system sound right because, if your educated in the theories and principals of sound and/or car audio then you will know and understand the procedures that need to be taken to make your system sound the very best it can. I'm not trying to be a punk or anything I'm just letting you know that the last few sentences you wrote were clearly not thought out. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13701 Registered: Dec-03 | wiring two subs in parallel to a mono amp is just wiring in parallel. jumpering the dual coils on a sub is bridging the coils. bridging an amplifier means to invert one of a pair of channels so that the two channels act in a push-pull configuration to supply their combined power output to a single driver or load. component speaker sets and separates are interchangeable terms. The term "bridging" with speaker coils comes from the jumper wires acting as a bridge between the coils to join them in series or parallel. With an amplifier, the term originated from bridging or joining the two channels together to combine their output, since the result was connecting one terminal to each channel in a bridged fashion. Yes I like to use correct terminology because one of my degrees is in English, so I prefer that people communicate clearly and concisely when they are able to do so. One of my other degrees is in Electrical Engineering, so these terms in particular matter, when communicating with other people. Communication is the thing upon which civilization and knowledge are built. After 20+ years of experience, and certification as an MECP master installer (Look it up. There aren't many of us around) I have skill, talent, and knowledge in this field. I also have a modicum of wisdom and I try to pass all of this on to others so they can learn. If you can't understand that, then you're in the wrong place, my friend. After having received your private message, and having read your posts here as well, I have the impression that you have a problem with me. You're entitled to that, but for what it's worth I really don't have any issues with you. I will correct misinformation when I see it though. A lot of people here will stand witness to that. I'll also admit when I'm wrong, if I find that I'm in err. I'm sorry if I upset you in some way. That wasn't my intention. |
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Bronze Member Username: M_kimmel843Post Number: 25 Registered: Apr-10 | Well said Glasswolf, well said. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 14188 Registered: Jun-04 | x2 |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 34 Registered: Jan-10 | But the jumper wires are commonly known as the bridge, right?And, you should never start a sentence with the words But or And.lol . Trial and error is still the only way to learn to DIY. Im no expert but Im not a dummy either. I installed my first system in 1987 in my own vehicle, first sub powered in 92 underneath the bed of my 87 el camino ss, behind the seat where the spare tire was mounted. Remember the Mohawks??Well I returned those (after putting my bit through the foam surround of1 ) in exchange for the comps mentioned earlier. powered through an old school punch150 at probably 2ohms mono.I believe they were svc4s.Any way, those were the early days of dual voice coils(orion XTR blue/red) and most diyer's had no freekin idea how to incorporate both coils into their system. I stayed away from them , only because I never took the time to LISTEN to someone who knew.Looking back now, it was such a simple concept, but noone could tell that 21 year old "kid" nothing then. I learned through trial and error. When one of my subs blew inside of 9 months , most likely because of an improperly consructed enclosure, I learned that,next time, MAYBE I should of paid the kicker dlr. $250 to build the correctly tuned custom enclosure instead of the Fosgate dealer, who were pissed off I didnt get punches,$150.Instead I learned the hard way after the kicker dlr in New port richey,fla told me to pound salt when i tried to recover the warranty, because Auto Audio,(palm harbor punch dlr)built my box wrong.i guess where IM goin with this is , you cant always trust the experts, sometimes you have to learn the hard way. Even GALILEO, SOCRATES AND EINSTEIN werent right about Everything. Just trying too add some fresh perspective too some of thes equations. thats all guys. Im still learning too. THE hard Way. LOL Peace p.s no prob GW at all |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13707 Registered: Dec-03 | Yup I remember teh Mohawks. For what it's worth, I put a makita drill gun but through the foam suround of a cerwin-vega 12" sub back around 1991. It's an easy fix. I used acrylic clear nail polish to seal the small tear, and that pair of subs is still working to this day, nail polish and all. If you ever have that problem again, give that solution a try. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3854832 That was the first "serious" system I put together, back around '91. Those are the Cerwins I mentioned above, too. I remember the old DVC subs. I was an Orion dealer at the time, and also remember when the "XTR" line was introduced. I'd begun working with Orion prior to that and the Cobalt introduction, when they just had the HC series speakers, and SX, GS, GX, and HCCA amplifiers. Great stuff, but very expensive for a college kid back then. Thank God for employee accommodation programs. Those C-V subs were dual 4 ohm coil models. I had them driven by an Orion 280GX @ 2 ohms. 320 watts for two 12" subs was amazingly loud. It still to this day makes me wonder why we need 5000 watts to drive a sub these days. On your box, I'd wager a guess that your box was fine, but since it wasn't built and installed by the shop where the subs were bought, that they refused the warranty. That happened a lot in those days. The real cause that the subs most likely died was either a lack of current from the charging system that caused the amp to clip, or the gain on the amp was turned up too far, and the amp clipped. Most shops won't stay in business very long if they can't build a simple box without leaks (which is what would cause the driver to unload if the box was bad.) that's just my guess. |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 36 Registered: Jan-10 | the enclosure was built to accomodate the mohawks i dont know if the fact they never sealed the comps off from eachother had something to do with it. it seemed like they were fighting eachother and one finally gave out?? they were bouncing around pretty hard but I know that the factory enclosures from kicker today have both subs together with one big port on the side. my cvrs are seperated though this time.lol. and yeah they sound great with my os pcx280 @2 ohm stereo and drop even harder off my $175 bamf1000d power acoustic which is like a knock off rock. punch.Way hard @1 ohm.digital is the best I cant wait to f with the new arts. have you messed with them or know anyone who has?? |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13713 Registered: Dec-03 | If both subs were the same, then shared air space isn't a problem. I've built plenty of boxes with shares air between two subs (common chamber) The only time it causes an issue is if one sub fails, or a coil comes unwired, or something like that. Then they can fight each other, yeah. Sealed boxes allow the drivers a lot more excursion than ported, so yeah in a sealed box, the subs will 'jump' a lot more than a ported box. That's normal. I was an Orion and PPI dealer when the Art and AM series came out. The new PPI amps (new owners) aren't out yet that I've seen, but no I haven't actually seen them yet. I've only read about them so far. |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 37 Registered: Jan-10 | a good friend of mine was selling PPI products pre dei and had 2 powerclass amps a pcx250(2x50@4ohmstereo) and a pcx280(320wrms@4 ohm mono) brand new in the box. They were built in 2001 and had been sittin on a shelf for 8 years. I had no prob. dishing out 2 bills for the pcx280, with q-bass PLUS and an internal fan. Now mind you ,those power ratings are at 12 volts not 14.4 which is what i get at my cap thanks to POWERMASTER inc. im sure you heard of them my alt. runs 180 instead of 105 amps. and its a chrome cs130,it looks SWEET with fat 4 gauge connections. so i figured 320wrms/12 volts is 26.6 per volt and the 2.4 extra vts. gains about 63.84 watts or about 25% correct? which is about what you would lose in efficiency "MAYBE" in an A/b class amp of that quality .So believe me I know what 300-350 real wrms can do if everything is correctly tuned/positioned/wired etc..It sounds so clean I cant believe the Pro"s used these "FOR THEIR COMPONENTS" . On top of everything you know that those amps are cheaters too?? im getting the pcx250 for my sony components for a hundo in a couple weeks. those amps retailed for $299 and $399 respectively. to get both for three is a dream come true.I' ll be able to hand them down too my sons for their first systems. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13717 Registered: Dec-03 | yeah I'm using a 300A (hot rating) alternator in my Charger. I used a 150A lestek alternator in my previous car, which I just rebuilt and have sitting in a box now. I hate to mention this, but Orion and PPI were founded by the same guys. Some of the engineers split off from Orion over a disagreement in power supply design for their amplifiers, and formed their own company (PPI) Orion used unregulated power supplies, which allowed their amps to double their power output at half load (all the way to .5 and .25 ohms in some models of HCCA amps) and allowed an amp rated for say, 1000 watts @ 12 volts, to put out 1200 watts @ 14.4 volts. Now PPI (named Precision Power, Inc because of their power supply design) used tightly regulated power supplies, which means the power output at half load isn't quite double, and regardless of voltage input, the amp will put out exactly the same power. The PWM regulated power supply makes the amp more stable for output (pros and cons to everything) but the 14.4 volts from your alternator wouldn't make any difference to the amp's output. sorry. This is why PPI were fantastic amplifiers for driving full range/components, but we stuck to Orions for driving subs back then. Now for efficiency, a class AB amp is about 60% efficient on average, but something to keep in mind is that efficiency is a tricky topic, because a class AB amp gains efficiency as output increases and load decreases, and can actually approach the 80+% mark at high volume, low load. A class D is just the opposite, boasting an 80-85% efficiency (at low output and higher loads) but at minimum load and high outputl it's efficiency actually plummets. Anyway for the PPI figure 60%, so output wattage divided by supply voltage, then multiplied by 1.4 as the efficiency factor. I still love the art series PPI amps and the artwork done for them. here's a vehicle I did about 18 years ago I think you'd like http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3854842 |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 38 Registered: Jan-10 | I like the paint scheme it looks cool,matches the amps. orion was the best choice in the 90's for subs albeit very expensive for entry level systems. But, the pawn shops always had plenty to go around. I know of the aforementioned split up .have you ever seen/sold the F1500 ppi i believe they were called? A $15,000 amp ? was that the answer to the HCCA series? PPI has a new beheameth for $5000. I know that the the new owners (EPSILON) have been working hard to reinvent the legend. they have vowed to bring the reputation back to the top of the industry, even supposedly rounding up original designers in order to do so. Looking at some of the specs on the web, they seem impressive. Being that they own SOUNDSTREAM and P/A ,which seem to be of decent quality compared to some manufactures thes days,I was hoping to see a new board design not shared with the other amplifiers. looking deeper none of the specs are similar to their other offerings. Can you look into it if the chance arises?? I want to believe they"re BACK |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 39 Registered: Jan-10 | http://precisionpower.com/amplifiers/html |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13720 Registered: Dec-03 | I do remember some of the gold plated limited edition amps from both Orion and PPI. Gorgeous stuff. I really hope PPI/Epsilon uses the same artist's work for the new Art series, though. I loved that art work. |
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Gold Member Username: IlluminatorUSA Post Number: 5162 Registered: Apr-05 | PPI is bringing back the Art series? Where can I read more about that? I do recall Epsilon purchasing PPI from Directed back in November 2008ish, but haven't noticed any difference in PPI production since then. Am I missing something here? I'm also assuming the new "Art" series will be produced overseas instead of here in the U.S. like the real Art series amps. ;) |
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Bronze Member Username: TkzoneClearwater, Florida USA Post Number: 40 Registered: Jan-10 | DEI's old website is up and running make sure to download the catalog. sorry no art on the art's WTF? but the real art is in the music and Everything is brand new/redisigned with top components. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13723 Registered: Dec-03 | http://precisionpower.com/amplifiers.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Andy614Post Number: 47 Registered: Feb-10 | ok so back to the real subject guys lol what is the difference between bridging subs and wiring them parallel? |
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Gold Member Username: IlluminatorUSA Post Number: 5182 Registered: Apr-05 | ^That's the same thing. You mean series and parallel? http://www.bcae1.com/srsparll.htm |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfPost Number: 13737 Registered: Dec-03 | when you bridge (the voice coils of) a sub, you are using a bridge card, or jumper wires to connect a pair of the DVC sub's coils to get a resulting load, like dual 4 ohm coils bridged in parallel would be a 2 ohm load. wiring two subs (SVC or DVC) in parallel (or series) to a monoblock amp (or a bridged stereo amp) is simply the circuit chosen to wire the speakers to the amplifier. When you wire two resistors or two coils, or two capacitors in series or parallel, it's not called bridging, either. In short, when you're shorting two terminals across a single device, like speaker terminals, it's bridging. When you're connecting several devices or components in a circuit, it's simply a circuit. (Before you point out a bridged amplifier, an amplifier is made up of many component parts, and what you're actually doing is invering one channel, then bridging, or connecting two separate circuits (channels) together.) |