Matching Subwoofers and Speakers?
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 312 Registered: Jan-06 | Well i was looking back on a very old thread becase I am trying to pick the right speakers for my car, and I've come to realize that buying a set of components doesnt exactly do the trick as nice as it could be. So anyway i was reading a thread between Jonathan and Isaac and then Mixneffect:https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/car-audio/130229.html Anyway, my question would really be how to you match speakers to each other before you have the ability to test them out, do you just attempt to match their Hz levels? or how do you go about doing that. Currently I have 2 10'' arsenals and i need to match off of that. Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 313 Registered: Jan-06 | hmm, back in the good old days when people answered your posts |
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Gold Member Username: FrkkevinResonant Engineering..., Fort Worth... Email Post Number: 2000 Registered: Nov-05 | if it were me I'd think getting a set of comps that would pick up from where you have your current cross-over on your amp would be best.. example.. I don't much like my sub playing any higher than 80hz so that is where it is cutoff.. so I'd get a component set that would play 80hz+ your trying to get the whole spectrum to have a nice sounding system so that would be the first step.. as far as brands .. ever ear is different so something that sounds great to me could sound bad to you.. the other important thing is staging.. if you get the staging correct with each component and of system playing accordingly the the outcome would be a great sound |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 314 Registered: Jan-06 | staging? Ive never heard that termonology before, whats that mean? thanks btw |
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Gold Member Username: FrkkevinResonant Engineering..., Fort Worth... Email Post Number: 2003 Registered: Nov-05 | staging.. for your front stage.. the objective is to hear the vocals clear at about ear level .. center of the car. basicall it should sound like you are hearing it from the middle of the dashboard but head level. kickpods make a world of difference when you try to achieve this a lot of problems people will get is the staging will be hard left or hard right depending on where you are sitting.. either or it might sound like it is coming from your kness which is not a good thing |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1220 Registered: Apr-05 | Well thats the trick. Making a system match up smoothly. There are some specs that can "help" someone select multiple drivers and match them up close enough to place in a sound system, but in order to smooth them out or to get a flat response when all is said and done, you need to build a custom crossover and/or other physical changes. Here is what I look at; Frequency response - I want my drivers to have a long extended range well beyond my crossover knee, so that they will be safe and not be susceptible to damage by bottoming out on the low end. I also try to not overextend on the upper end due to diaphragm breakup (cone/dome/dustcap). Efficiency levels - dB. I try to keep my drivers the same dBs if possible so that my crossover will be easier to design, and also keep the efficiency level flat and smooth. Watts - power handling is also a concern because I want them to be able to get louder gracefully and be able to top out evenly. I use the 60% (sub)-30% (midrange)-10% (tweeter) rule when designing a 3way system. I use the 75% (woofer) - 25% (tweeter) rule when I design a 2way system. This means that when I add up all the power that goes to the all the speakers, they each get their own % of power respectively. This usually keeps them relatively flat. This is my own theory, and can be tested to be fairly accurate, within +/- 5% depending on each drivers capabilities. Qms - This is the Q facotr of the drivers mechanical output. You want a high Qms. This means that the driver will put out for the electrical input. Its similar to efficiency, but not necessarily relative to loudness. Its more of a motor strength spec. Qes - This is the Q factor of the drivers necessairy electrical input to give it optimum energy for performance. You want a low Qes, so that it will require less power to do more work (Qms). Qts - This is the drivers combined total Q. It is defined as 1/Qts = 1/Qes + 1/Qms. This helps to determine what type of enclosure will be more effective for your speaker. It may either be sealed or ported. IMO, I use speakers with a Qts of less than 40 in a ported box, and speakers with a Qts greater than 40 in a sealed box. A speaker with a Qts greater than 60, is suitable for infinite baffle applications. A speaker with a Qts above 80 may be used in free air. These parameters are my own, some may say that you can go a little higher or lower, but to each is own. These are just some basic guidelines. Bl - This is the total force fator of the driver. A speaker with a high Bl will have a high impact, punchy but with power behind it. Low Bl drivers are lazy, and sometimes slow or soft. Mms - This the moving mass of the cone or dome or diaphragm. A high Mms allows for more Bl. You cant get a powerfull hitting sub with a low Mms aka weight of the cone. It just isnt physically possible. Re - Efficiency resistence of the speaker. This just determines how current will flow through. A high resistence (ohm) will allow less current flow. A low resistence will allow easier current flow, therefore allowing your amp to deliver more watts just because there is less resistence. It doesnt mean the speaker is louder. Efficiency - This is how loud a speaker is when 1 watt is pushed through using a 1KHz test tone. This is usually measured in dBs. The higher the dB, the louder the speaker may be, up to a certain point, then other things start to change ludness. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Ct Post Number: 7698 Registered: Dec-04 | I remember that thread |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 317 Registered: Jan-06 | Well, I understand the specs, but i guess it really comes more down to the crossover that is used. If i were to go with maybe Iridiums or maybe A/D/s 346cs's or some HD-52's that came with a crossover, would it be just as good or close? |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1221 Registered: Apr-05 | Ready made crossovers are,........... well ok, but they arent exactly flat or natural sounding. They are more designed with power handling capabilities than flat or natural response in mind. Most manufacturers are worried about people that dont know what they are doing and screwing up their merchandise and then trying to cash out on warranty. Custom crossovers help smooth out dips and peaks of the speakers original frequency response. So they are basically better. You can get away with an electronic xover and maybe even an amp xover or HU, if you dont mind the extras that do not help keep the response flat. You see, a flat response is what quality is all about. Thats where sound stage comes in too. Sound stage is the sound you hear coming from your speakers as you listen to your cd. If the sound makes you feel like you are actually in front of the musician that has previously recorded the sound you are listening to, and it sounds real and not mechanical, then I would say that have a good sound stage. If the sound coming from your speakers sounds like you are getting sound coming from your mids in the doors, and some from the tweeter in your dash, then you do not have a good sound stage. This is what I call mechanical sound. In a car it is almost impossible to get a good sound stage. The atmosphere doesnt physically alow it, and also the placement of the speakers is terrible, not to mention that the driver is sitting to one side. Your question; "would it be just as good or close?" It would sound close. You may not even tell the difference. You need to have a lot of audio education before you start to realize what sound stage really is, and then to be able to appreciate it. This by no means is meant to insult you. If you can pick up what it is required to appreciate a good sound stage early on without too much education, then great, but usually it takes time. I would have to say that to get a flat response, smooth transition between the sub and mid, and the mid and tweeter, as well as a good sound stage, the biggest facor is speaker location. You need to have all three coming from the same location and pointing in the same direction, even if some people argue that subwoofers emmit non directional frequencies, they are wrong. Subharmonic frequencies actually can be detected as being different if the sub is facing you or not. |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1222 Registered: Apr-05 | I m sure others like Johnathan, Isaac, Mikechec9, and Glasswolf could add a few things to this list. Hope they stop by. |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 320 Registered: Jan-06 | so my ignorance may actually be a plus, in that I might not hear that large of a difference between going with a ready made cross over a custom one? I dont take any offence, i asked it for a reason, and i apreciate the responce....and the honosty of that responce Also, you say you want them all facing the same direction. My box for my subs is in the trunk, facing forward, does this mean i need to find some way to have the speakers face forward as well, or can they be coming from the doors? |
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Gold Member Username: FrkkevinResonant Engineering..., Fort Worth... Email Post Number: 2023 Registered: Nov-05 | i'd suggest a kick pods for the mids and put your tweets in the A-pillars firing into the windshield... that is one easy way to get your staging up front correct.. now you could run an active setup and not use the cross-overs.. but get an amp for just the tweeters and an amp just for the mids.. i'd also suggest a good EQ to help fine tune your system rather than a decks EQ |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 321 Registered: Jan-06 | woh, an amp for each? that will kill me price wise, not that i have a direct budget but i dont wanna go crazy i need to afford living still. I would rather go with something that is just one amp for all four speakers (2 mids/2 tweets) and when it comes to crossover i wasnt quite sure where to go with all that. EQ is a maybe. and im gonna go look up what all the staging directions meant...sorry i donno what an a pillar and what not is. |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 323 Registered: Jan-06 | ah, i understand the a-pilalr thing....that was a dumb question haha and for the kick pods, is it just a wood enclose that makes the speaker face upwards or downwards? |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1224 Registered: Apr-05 | Facing the same direction, means you want them all to face your ears. It doesnt mean that you should face your mids twoards the front grill just because your subs are facing forward from your trunk. I hope this explains that. The tweeters firing twoards the windshield will not improve sound stage at all. It may in fact even amplify them, possibly for the worse. You do not want to amplify your subs, mids, and tweeters separately. There is almost an impossible chance that you will get them to sound level, loudness wise, let alone get a good sound stage. The term sound stage seems to have been misunderstood as of lately. Just because some people refer to the front speakers as your front stage doesnt mean that you are getting a good sound stage. Sound stage is what I explained in my posts above. It simply gives you the feeling that you are live at the original recording and not listening to a playback. The component crossovers are like I said above; They are designed to protect the speakers, so that they will not be damaged due to over amplification. To get a smooth response you need an experienced crossover engineer to make two or more speakers sound right. There are many tricks that engineers use to get a set of speakers to sound right. The are impedence corrections, Lpads, notch filters, and many other crossover techniques that a ready made off the shelf crossover does not include due to high cost and size. A set of speakers that require a lot of crossover tweaking, may have up to 20 components. This will definetly surpass an of the shelf crossover budget and size. Most high end crossovers use expensive capacitors that are many many times larger than your everyday cheap capacitors such as electrolitic. I have seen crossovers that cost 3-4 times the cost of the DIY speakers combined ($800-1000)for the crossover alone. |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1225 Registered: Apr-05 | http://www.madisound.com/pdf/Kits/eton8.2kit.pdf Here is a 3way home system with an 8" woofer, a 5" mid, and a 1" tweeter. The crossover has 13 components for each side, so 13 for the left and 13 for the right. L3 = 5.6 MH which costs $42.75 each http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=1539839.2138&pid=1138 C1 = 150 MF which costs $35.10 each http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=1539839.2138&pid=929 Now these are just two parts of 13 from just one side. Can you see how the price can escalate when you use high quality parts for a crossover? |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1226 Registered: Apr-05 | http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/learningcenter/car/speakers_comp onent_installation_options.html Kickpods are down to the bottom of the page. |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 325 Registered: Jan-06 | Wow, price escalates a LOT... I would like very ligitamate sound, for a price that is not cheap, but not exactly thousands of dollars. In addition, what makes it worse is that I am not extremely experienced, and I am already going out on a tangent to try and install just simple car audio ideas, and I think trying to design kick pads and what not are a little big out of my league. In addition, I am not sure how much longer the car is going to last (knock on wood) If i were to pick out speakers that range the frequency responce needed, and got crossovers and an EQ. Would it be posible to bring it to a car audio shop and get it to sound correct? Or is that out of the question normally and you need people who do just crossover equalization and what not for a living? |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 326 Registered: Jan-06 | bump* dont want this thread to get lost |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1229 Registered: Apr-05 | "Would it be posible to bring it to a car audio shop and get it to sound correct? Or is that out of the question normally and you need people who do just crossover equalization and what not for a living?" Yes it is possible to make them sound acceptable. Ideally everyone wants perfection, but unfortunately that is a dream/fantassy. The laws of physics limit us in many ways. I would opt that you go ahead and pick one of your above mentioned components, and have them installed professionaly. You can do it as well, I dont know how mechanically inclined you are, but a few basic tools are needed. I would advise that you kep the tweeter as close to the mid as possible, for best immaging. When you pull the tweeter away from the mid, you start to get that mechanical unballanced sound I was talking about above. You may get an EQ, but that may be a little pricey. See what you can get out of your components without an EQ, and just use your HU bass/trebble or EQ for now. If you decide you want better EQ options, then buy it later, but first see how the basic setup works for you. "If i were to go with maybe Iridiums or maybe A/D/s 346cs's or some HD-52's that came with a crossover, would it be just as good or close?" Yes it would be ok. You dont need a crossover engineer to install your stuff. I just took you out on a stretch to educate you a little about crossovers. Believe me, crossovers do wonders, but I wouldnt over do it right off the bat. Take your time and enjoy your speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 327 Registered: Jan-06 | mixin...you the man. I apreciate all and thank you so much I definitly feel more confident, and aware of what I am actually doing now. I am going to go for the install myself and see how I do, kick panels may be an option in the future and maybe an EQ as well. But the point you made is a good one, I should enjoy them now, and if i want improvement later, then go for it, but im probably not going to notice that improvement as much, if i dont go with just the speakers to start off. Thanks a bunch again, you own! |
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Silver Member Username: AfroopuffPost Number: 328 Registered: Jan-06 | wow...so today I went into my local audio shop to listen and learn about cdts and a/d/s/ First he had a lot to say about the CDT's and supposedly the audio shop and Ken(CDT owner) have a good relationship. Anyway so I listened to the A/d/s/'s and the CDT's and right after I am done and am about to tell the guy at the shop what I liked, Ken walks right in the door. Honostly, I didnt really have a preference. I didn't like either speeaker better than the other, both just sounded good. It was sorta awkward, I said I liked the CDT's more, but I didnt really have a preference. I was listening to some REALLY old A/d/s/ before they got bought out. They are really clean sounding. To me, the clarity of them was so much more than the CDT's. Because of that I felt that the A/d/s/' had better hi's, but apparently the CDT's are supposed to have the better highs. It was hard to tell which one I liked better because of the music too, it was satellite. So I think I am going to go re-listen and bring a CD of some different stuff. I was just wondering though, is there anything to be listening for in particular. Mostly I was just listening to what sounded better, but my ears are so virgin I just think they both sound great. That thought kinda makes me wonder? Should I go and blow 900 bucks on speakers, when 500 dollar speakers are gonna sound the same to me? HMMM? |
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Gold Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 1232 Registered: Apr-05 | "Should I go and blow 900 bucks on speakers, when 500 dollar speakers are gonna sound the same to me? HMMM?" Price doesnt mean anything. Quality does. "I was just wondering though, is there anything to be listening for in particular?" Yes, here are a few things that I listen for and how I do it; Get a few CDs. First, get a CD that you have listened to a lot, and think it has good sound quality. Listen to this CD and listen for "detail" stuff like crashing cymbals or delicate acoustic guitar picks, etc.. Do they sound crisp, splashy, loud, soft, in your face, in the background? Stuff like that. You want crisp, medium volume, and somewhere in between in your face and in the background. Now this has to be compared to other speakers, not the recording. You want to see how the speakers behave, not recording blemishes. You will notice that some things you will hear listening to CDTs better Vs ADSs, or vice versa. So, just compare by listening to the same track and switching back and forth from CDTs to the ADSs. Now make your call. You also want to bring a CD that has some clean crisp bass. Listen to how each of them behaves under bass pressure. Some components do not do well in the bass region, and usually distort prematurely. Obviously you want them to be able to go down low even if you plan on using bass blockers because it will make it easier to work with. You will understand later on what I mean. If you have a component that cant handle bass well, you will have a hard time balancing it out with your sub. Next get a CD that has some good vocals or piano. You may want to bring a country CD, yes country has good vocals. For piano you might want to look for a new age CD. New age is modern jazz. You may also get a CD that has speed. You want to see how the components handle speed under pressure. Get a Metalica, Tom Petty, Ramstein, Pantera, Creed, Ottmar Leiber (if you have lol). You want a clean crisp recording, but also fast. You want your speakers to handle the overloads of bass at a fast pace, or at least be the better one at it. Now, you might want to se which one handles the most power. You want volume, but not cranky, so dont get fooled by cranky sound. Make sure it handles nicely and evenly all the way up. When listening to speakers you want to ask that the bass, trebble, midrange, EQ loudness button, etc... They are all flat. That means at 0 or unactivated. You dont want to hear the EQ, you want to hear the speaker only. If you like to change the EQ or bass/trebble settings later after you buy them, it is ok, but just compare at flat response always. This way your decision is untampered. |
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