A Watt is a Watt!
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1348 Registered: May-05 | just to clarify my position. richard clark has k's down on all challengers. finally found the rules. in gist: "guys--it always circles back to the same old thing--i have never said or even inferred that there is no meaningful difference in amps--of course there are differences--some amps cost more because they are built better--perhaps they will last longer--or play longer without overheating--or have better resale value because they have more "brand appeal" or do more because they have more features--all I ever said was that WHEN THEY ARE COMPARED EVENLY THE SONIC DIFFERENCES BETWEEN AMPLIFIERS IS BELOW THE AUDIBLE THRESHOLD OF HUMAN HEARING--" http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18815 |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 710 Registered: Nov-04 | home audio people would differ. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1349 Registered: May-05 | so would car audio people. hence the debate and consequent challenge |
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Silver Member Username: Chaunb3400Huntsville, Alabama U.S. Post Number: 866 Registered: Jul-05 | i just read the whole thing......zzzzz |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1350 Registered: May-05 | the things we do when all the other forums are down, lol |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 711 Registered: Nov-04 | to clarify my point. i guess all audio people have some take on that arguement. didnt want to come across as making home audio people snobs or something though many end up that way. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4971 Registered: Nov-04 | Since the forums are down, here's a thought. If someone issued a challenge in cars, saying you couldn't tell a difference between $150K Ferrari and $5000 Russian Yugo, in a ride to milk store blind folded, would anyone take the offer? You could say a "mile" is a "mile" no matter how cheap the car was. Almost all the criteria set in the audio challenge will fit a car. 200mph Ferrari vs 200mph Honda Civic with turbo charger (assuming it could be done). They both will travel 200mph, but you can clearly see which one will get the glory. Somehow, arguing about a mile is a mile in car terminology just doesn't have the same appeal. |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 3995 Registered: Aug-04 | I'm aware Richard has said that before. I know Jonathan used to say in all actualality, you really shouldn't be able to hear the difference between a sony amp or a mcintosh amp. You can tell the differences when talking about different amp classes, but I agree with richard. There's of course lots of other advantages to having a better quality amp, but the sound quality really isn't an issue. I've had a friend run an Eclipse Alum with a Sony amp, and then with an old school Pioneer, from the late 1980's. Honestly, you couldn't hear a difference... |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1351 Registered: May-05 | not so. the ENTIRE driving experience is going to be different between 1-200mph. the difference is that no matter what, within the amps' limits, there won't be variation. so if you play two amps, one who's limit is actually 500 watts and a second who's limit is truly 200 watts, between 1-50 watts you won't be able to tell a difference (for example). if an amp doesn't truly have the capabiltiy to reproduce sound up to 200 watts, you'll notice a distinct difference between the two. particularly as you reach that "200watt" limit. so, the cars will behave completely differently, and the difference will be blatant. amps, not even audible. arguably, of course  |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 4153 Registered: Dec-04 | as long as you have the exact wattage then this will hold true. That is where you come into a problem when comparing a 1000 watt sony asmp and a 1000 watt Zapco amp. The sony amp is more like 250 watts so of coarse the zapco will desimate it but if the sony were a true 1000 and the zapco(well it is more then a true 1000) then your ears would not be able to tell the difference. If the audio industry did away with allowing these garbage low level companies to stop posting Max ratings this would be much easier to test. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3604 Registered: Jun-04 | I can say this ive had many many many different car amplifiers in my years dealing with car audio and I can say that not all amps SOUND the same and i dont mean from a distortion aspect i mean some speakers ive had sounded great on a cheaper amp than a much more expensive amp but what I mean in those cases is it depends on the speakers hooked up to the amp ...case in point...an alpine amp I had way back in the day sound pretty good on my subwoofers but I put them on some cheap 4 x 6's and they sounded absolutely amazing ...ive had similar experiences all through the years with subwoofers included ...for some reason matching the amp to the speakers can make such a difference even If the true rms power is the same with both amps....ive pondered and looked for the answer to this mystery for some time and all I can figure is it has to do with where the frequency bandwidth is centered in the amplifier ( i think this is sorta on target anyway) let me know peeps ...great discussion here |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 3996 Registered: Aug-04 | "with where the frequency bandwidth is centered in the amplifier ( i think this is sorta on target anyway)" Amps really shouldn't be centered to a certain frequency range. They play what they're given. The only real factor is distortion. This is why Class D amps are mainly only used on subs. Because of the higher effeciency, you also get more distortion. Since distortion is very hard to hear in frequencys of the range that subs play (such as 80 hz on down), class D amps suit subs well. A class A/B amp really won't sound much different on a sub, maybe a teeny teeny bit better, but it's doubtful. You will definitely notice a difference if you hook a class D up to a set of coaxils or components, and then hook up a class A / A/B, but of course, that's comparing like apples to oranges. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3607 Registered: Jun-04 | "Amps really shouldn't be centered to a certain frequency range. They play what they're given." I dont know if I agree with that statement example....a cd plays a said set of frequencies in music but the frequencies can sound different from headunit to head unit even if the voltage out put is the same and the frequency bandwidth on the cd players are the same but one could have a higher oversampling, bitrate...ex. 24 d/a etc now move on to the amp with these same type of examination technics we could deduce the same about amplifiers.. what if one amp had components that were more suited for bass (just like your example with the class d amps I know you meant on a distortion aspect but there are more reasons than that that affect the output of the amplifier (im seeing it in a curved aspect like your distortion comemnt but i think i see where the key comes in "where the distortion is measured at" each company can use a different point of refrence (I think) so if thats true thats why some amps can be more suited to different speakers than just from a class d mono approach to a class a/b approach |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 3997 Registered: Aug-04 | "a cd plays a said set of frequencies in music but the frequencies can sound different from headunit to head unit even if the voltage out put is the same and the frequency bandwidth on the cd players are the same but one could have a higher oversampling, bitrate...ex. 24 d/a etc now move on to the amp with these same type of examination technics we could deduce the same about amplifiers.. what if one amp had components that were more suited for bass (just like your example with the class d amps I know you meant on a distortion aspect but there are more reasons than that that affect the output of the amplifier" I understand where your coming from, but any distortion created from the switching of the transisotrs is gonna be throughout the whole frequency range. I agree, some amps may "sound different" than others, such as a tube amps "warmness", but this still has to do with distortion. Tube amps produce second order distortion. It sounds different, but it's still distortion, and it's still found throughout the whole frequency spectrum. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3609 Registered: Jun-04 | ok fair enough good discussion and im glad to have had the chance to read your replies....thanks Joe |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4974 Registered: Nov-04 | Don't get too carried away with "watts." There is more to an amp than just watts. You can't ignore other factors. Richard Clark's challenge does teach you that humans have bad hearing. |
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Silver Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 713 Registered: Nov-04 | exactly isaac. comparison of amps is not just wattage. not all companies use the same type or quality of components and designs are not all equal even with the same amplification architecture. though some may argue that a capacitor is a capacitor and a transistor is a transistor, other will aruge that they can and do make a different. wattage is really meaningless in terms of amp "sounds". |
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Silver Member Username: TdisantoPost Number: 478 Registered: Sep-05 | Well a watt is a watt no different than a car is a car. A watt (Unit of Power) is just the derivative of energy with respect to time. For those of you unfamiliar with calculus, power can also be calculated as V*I, V^2/R, I^2R. So a watt really is a watt. Now, the argument comes in when you say that Watt A sounds no different than Watt B. They are both a watt (Hence watt is a watt theory is true) but they dont sound the same. Similarly, a car is a car, but theyre not the same style, same looking, etc... You cant say that because the Ferrari is fast and beautiful that the Yugo isnt a car because compared to the Italian its garbage. Its still a car, its just a sh!tty car. Think about this: Every hear static over an old radio, or even in your nice car HU from a fuzzy channel on the radio? Crank the volume. What do you hear? Same sh!t sound just louder (ie, more power, hence more watts one would say) Now play a CD or whatever. Turn it to the same volume, same equipment and everything; what do you hear? Its still the same amount of Power, or watts, but it doesnt sound like sh!t So defined by the basic principles of electricity, a watt is really a watt. However the sound quality that is associated with the watt (ie the noise involved in the applied signal) varies from watt to watt when comparing different amplifiers. Im not stating anything new here, everyone has already touched on what ive said, its just all sumed up here. The key thing to remember is that wattage is just a spec, its an SI unit associated with the amount of Power dissipated in the system. In a sense its a way to standardize and compare amplifiers. However, power is derived from the voltages, currents and resistances within the circuit of the amplifier. The currents and voltages are affected by the physical components used in the circuits, ie the resistors, transitors, etc... Therefore, since noise is induced in these signals (currents) than by defination of power, this noise carries over into the power. Therefore, the sound a watt A and watt B are certainly different. And this is the reason we have Zapco amps and Sony amps. Case Closed! |
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Silver Member Username: SpyderEglin AFB, Florida USA Post Number: 186 Registered: Jun-05 | nicely done Mike D!! |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 3999 Registered: Aug-04 | Yeah sean, it's good to actually talk about meaningfull stuff once in a while. I wish we had more conversations like this on these forums.... |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1353 Registered: May-05 | "WHEN THEY ARE COMPARED EVENLY, THE SONIC DIFFERENCES BETWEEN AMPLIFIERS IS BELOW THE AUDIBLE THRESHOLD OF HUMAN HEARING--" this is actually the true bottom line. the argument of different amps being better constructed and having a wider power range and larger supply was never made. this is obvious (or should be) and i think that everyone here agrees. so, with regards to the above stated quote, is there still any who disagree? curious |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 4001 Registered: Aug-04 | I've agree'd with Richard the whole time. I'd like to see somebody actually try to argue against it though.... |
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Silver Member Username: Lil_jonPost Number: 199 Registered: Jul-05 | GO GET GET A PYRAMID AMP AND COME TELL US WHAT YOU THINK OF IT |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4984 Registered: Nov-04 | This test is a bit deceiving. If you read the rules carefully, you'll see the restrictions put on the amps. If for example, Zapco amp was rated 1000w, and Sony/Pyramid was 1000w, then you have to make certain that Sony amp wouldn't clip/distort. Meaning, instead of comparing at 1000w, it might be brought down to 100w. Whatever number the cheap amp could handle. By the time you're done "downgrading" or "normalizing", it'll be at the same power level as a Sony. Now if you played "commercially available music", it would be very hard to distinguish. After all, the reason why Sony/Pyramid costs do much less than Zapco was the quality factor and actually putting out the stated numbers. Notice, the contest states "No test signals can be used." If you had above normal hearing, and set 16Khz tone to a tweeter, a slow amp such as Sony/Jensen will make that sharp tone a bit tinny. Again very hard to detect, but it is not impossible. I hope no one will be using this as a way of judging amps nor using it as a guide/rule to replace Zapco/JL with Sony/Pyramid amps. That would be very foolish. There are just too many factors involved. Amps can not be judged on watts alone. This is a good theory and learning experience for hobbyist. Sony/Pyramid should hire Richard Clark as their marketing genius. |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 4004 Registered: Aug-04 | I really don't think Richard intended his theory to be used as a basis on buying amps. I think he's gotten a little tired of so many people saying, "buy a zapco, your system will sound a lot better. " or, "Arc audio makes sq amps", when in reality those people have no clue what they're talking about. We all know the reliability and performance issues associated with crappy companies. Easier to drive into clipping, false power ratings, cheap components that break easily, etc... but the fact is, if you negate all all other factors, amp A will not sound any different than amp B, as long as both are pushing the same speaker and putting out un-clipped power. Poeple are mistaken and think just because you are using a Sony amp, your system is immediately gonna sound like trash. If your pushing the sony within it's limits, it's not clipping, and it is actually still working, then everything will sound fine. I know, it's hard to grasp, and even I don't really like to admit it, but it's true... |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1357 Registered: May-05 | "if your pushing the sony within it's limits, it's not clipping, and it is actually still working, then everything will sound fine. I know, it's hard to grasp, and even I don't really like to admit it, but it's true..." 2shay joe..2shay |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4988 Registered: Nov-04 | Yes but the trick is, making Sony/Pyramid produce sound without clipping. I agree it is a good test. However, too many people will assume all watts are the same and start buying Sony/Pyramid. You never get something for nothing. Richard's test makes more sense for home audio cause even cheap amps perform well within certain parameters. "buy a zapco, your system will sound a lot better. " Is not 100% false cause once you get past the Sony/Pyramid's very limited range. What I mean by that is, beyond 200w, those amps will start clipping/distorting, and Zapco will not. "Arc audio makes sq amps" is also true. It all depends on the individual. I'm trying to make a point that, watts challenage is a very good one, but it does not tell the whole story as to why, Zapco/JL is better than Sony/Pyramid. Joe, read the part about "no test tones allowed" in the rules. It is there for a specific purpose. I really hope Sony/Pyramid won't see this thread nor Richard's challenge. That's all we need from those leeches. They already lie too much as is. |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 4010 Registered: Aug-04 | Yeah, I read all the rules Isaac, I know where your coming from. Your absolutely right too, the trick IS making a Sony/Pyramid produce close to their rated specs without clipping... |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 4991 Registered: Nov-04 | That is the part most people will NOT see. All they will remember is, Richard's claim. If Sony/Pyramid said that their 1000w amp is really 100w rms amp, then you can compare it with Zapco's iForce 100w amp. Not only will the price be reasonable, the performce won't be that far off either. Then Richard's test will make more sense. But to just say watts is watts, it a bit misleading. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1358 Registered: May-05 | i think we all agree and subscribe to the same belief. (and i'm pretty positive no one runs sony, pyramid, or boss) |
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New member Username: SoundgravyPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-05 | I used to be into car audio years ago and used to think that everything Richard Clark said was gold, but now that I am older and alot smarter I know that was not the case. I am no longer into car audio because about 10 years ago I stumbled into a local high end home audio shop thinking it was a new car audio shop, boy am I glad that I did. I listened to a pair of high end speakers made by Wilson Audio powered by Mark Levinson. I knew from that day on that I could NEVER get that sound in my car and I sold all of my car audio gear. (Now Ill get to my point) I have had the pleasure of owning many high end amplifers and speakers since then and can say that if Richard Clark cannot tell the difference between a $100 amplifer and a high end amplifer costing much more , both having the same output wattage, then Mr Clark needs his ears checked. |
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Unregistered guest | Clark is trying to prove a point that is for the most part valid in certain cercumstances. For the average user, there is no difference. Speakers themselves offer the greatest improvements from one end to the other, so spending the money on the speakers, which is what Mr. Clark intended to push with this little stunt, is still the best advice out there. However, there is still something to be gained bys spending the money for a quality amplifier, at least for some of them. The problem with Clark's 10K challenge, is that he intentionally removes any factors that distinguish the differences between amplifiers. The factors are still present in the real world though. The main part of the challenge that I disagree with is the volume levels it is conducted at. You have to drive a speaker harder than the test does before the differences really become audible in most cases. It's the amplifier's ability to deal with the highly reactive nature of a speaker driven near it's limits that set some apart from others. Any amp can control a speaker when it is driven well within it's limits such as in the test, it's when you drive them hard that the cream rises to the top. Part of the audio experience is recreating music how it was meant to be heard. With many types of music that means very loud. Since you simply cannot reasonably install a huge number of speakers in your car to spread out the load, that means that driving speakers hard to achieve the required volumes, but still maintaining accuracy, is a requirement for good sound for a lot of users. If it is not a requirement for you, then by all means get the cheap amp. You will not hear any difference. But if you want to be able to enjoy a band like Tool in all their grinding, trashing, banging glory, you need an amp that can cope, as well as some quality speakers. More power is of course always helpfull in this endevour, but not always realistic for the average guy who likes having a trunk and not having to upgrade his perfectly fine alternator to drive the tremendous amount of raw power amplification required to get good sound from a cheap amp at high volumes. I can say with complete confidence that you can hear differences in amplifiers when you listen to them in your car the way most people listen to music. There are audible differences that the stats can't show. The THD at the amp on a test bench at a given power is irrelevant. It's the distortion at the speakers that matters, and that is where some amplifiers excell. The key is that speakers don't just willingly do their job, you can't just tell them to move this way without them giving you a raft of shite about it, especially when you start really whipping on them. They fight back with a vengance in the form of reactive feedback, and this is what causes a of distortion. A really high quality amlifier that can deal with that feedback and still go about it's job is what makes a difference in the sound. There are smps out there specifically desgned to deal with that characteristic of a speaker, and they are typically more expensive than ones that are not for obvious reasons. In my eperience, the best example of an amp that plays bigger than it looks and sounds better than anything else in the same power range is the US Amps TU series of tube hybrids. They are simply amazing. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1450 Registered: May-05 | "It's the distortion at the speakers that matters, and that is where some amplifiers excell." and i agree fully. there is certainly a relationship between amps and distortion. however, my position has always been in opposition to the likes of Bob Norvelle who subscribes to the belief that "imaging and staging" are what set amplifiers apart. that's the role and consequence of speaker ability, location, and proper tuning. with adequate power capabilities (proper supply) one amp shouldnt sound any different from another given the above stated requirement. high-grade capacitors better op-amps, faster transistors, lower resistance connections.. work to expand an amp's limits/operating range, adding to the amp's ability to provide clean power (distortion free). but in no way do these elements conspire to improve or destroy the "realism and the soundstage". unless the argument is that distortion is the culprit where destruction of said elements is concerned. in which case i would agree. giving imaging scores to an amp is about as feeble as giving points to Tiger's caddy. true, without a distortion-less amp, Iridiums would never provide the imaging and staging that they do. and tiger would likely not be able to produce his scores if he had a enept caddy who fed him bogus info. but in the end its the dls and the golfer who have the intrisic capabilities. the other factors are links in the chain. i just used richard's perspective as an exemplar to further substantiate my personal view. |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 4036 Registered: Aug-04 | " have had the pleasure of owning many high end amplifers and speakers since then and can say that if Richard Clark cannot tell the difference between a $100 amplifer and a high end amplifer costing much more , both having the same output wattage, then Mr Clark needs his ears checked." Why don't you try for the $10k then? I've tried two totall different qualities of amps before myself, and even members such as Glass and Jonathan have said the same thing I do. When your running two amps withing reasonable conditions, you won't be able to hear the difference. You can be as ingorant to the fact as you want, but it's the suprising truth. |
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Silver Member Username: Lil_jonPost Number: 210 Registered: Jul-05 | That aint true joe... i saw were glass wolf said the sony can sound like a mac if its in its limits and i sat here and didnt agree because i listend to a MTX on the same subs as a Kicker at circuit city same watts same volume the MTX was louder boomier (airy) and the kicker was cleaner tighter and made the sub sound better but the kicker was not as loud |
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Gold Member Username: InvainMichigan United States Post Number: 4039 Registered: Aug-04 | "because i listend to a MTX on the same subs as a Kicker at circuit city same watts same volume the MTX was louder boomier (airy) and the kicker was cleaner tighter and made the sub sound better but the kicker was not as loud" That's because you were at Circuit City. God only knows what they were doing. If you truly want to hear it, then do controlled expiraments your self. |
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New member Username: SoundgravyPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-05 | Joe, what amps did you listen to and what speakers did you listen to them through? Let me guess, your car? Honestly. I would like you to visit any high end HOME audio shop and ask the dealer to do the same test for you, then lets see how ignorant I really am. I have conducted ths same test myself, in controlled enviroments,long before I ever heard of this so called challenge, I do it all of the time, Its my job. In a dream world of audio every amplifer would be totaly linear in frequency response, adding no colorations or noise to the original signal. But the world is not perfect, so alot of amplifiers have their own "signature" sound to them to some extent, mainly because of the design and the internal products used. Some do things better than others, better bass response, smoother midrange, differences in soundstage depth and width, etc, etc... So, knowing just this, which I dont think anyone can argue with, will cause you to hear a difference in any two amplifers of different quality and price. Richard Clark, by setting up these so called tests, is much like PT Barnum, he wants to keep a show going on to keep his name where he thinks it should be, in the spotlight. |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 5036 Registered: Nov-04 | People this thread needs a rest. Richard's challenge does have merith in home audio world. There $300 system and $3000 system will sound pretty much the same when the powers are down graded to meet the lower priced amp. In car audio, because so many cheap companies lie, the challenge doesn't make much sense (as I stated in the above post). One of the key factor/rule for the challenge is "No test tones allowed", only commercial music. If you really read all of Richard's rules/conditions carefully, only a fool would challenge it. |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 696 Registered: Aug-05 | ISAAC LIVES! |
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Gold Member Username: CarguyPost Number: 5039 Registered: Nov-04 | Yes! I've been busy moving past week. |
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Anonymous | i think amps close together in the high quality category are much harder to differentiate with a moderately cheap amp against a very high quality amp it is still difficult to the unexperienced in obtaining sound once you seperate the quality of the amps apart far enough its easy for those who obtain sound to hear the enrichment that the cheap amps dont have a few metaphors like chocolate.. all the same in name but given different ingrediants makes the chocolate itself taste different even though person A just brushed their teeth and person B just had a cup of coffee (that makes the outcome flavor different like a speaker would) the quality of the ingrediants as well as the amount of ingrediants all plays the role of how the chocolate tastes once it leaves the factory granulated sugar compared to pure sugar could be like 4 resistors compared to 8 resistors with lower value equaling the first 4 but with better quality because there are twice as many to do the job |
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Anonymous | another metaphor electricity has to flow through the amp starting from point A which is the rca inputs and ending at part B which is the speaker outputs like water flowing through the city underground it depends on how big the pipes are.. how many bends in the pipes.. how smooth the inside of the pipes are.. how many pipes with rusty holes leaking water out.. a quality path will give you a better chance of getting natural spring water to your house.. but after running through the very old dirty pipes.. the water isnt gonna taste like it did when it left the water company if the pipes were all brand new and top of the line so they wont rust.. then you could have natural spring water at the house |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1536 Registered: May-05 | well, since i found a thread supporting the truth (), i managed to dig up the article supporting the imaginary "magical ear." the favorite part for me is where for the first 30 seconds they were frightened there would be no diffrence after all. but then they magically began to notice variations. funny stuff. but i'll remain objective since this thread keeps finding a way to be bumped. |
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Gold Member Username: Mikechec9Http://www.cardomain.c... Post Number: 1537 Registered: May-05 | sorry. the actual listening test from august '05 isn't available (yet?). but this is basically the set-up to their test. |
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