Sean need help for box
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-05 | Hey sean I was wondering if you could help me design a ported box for 2 kicker c15a subs. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26,1%26item%3D455958889 1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT I was thinking of tuning it to around 25 hz unless that is too low for these subs. I have no idea where I can find the ts parameters of these so I need quite a bit of help. If you will help design ill go out to my s10 and grab some measurments for you. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3200 Registered: Jun-04 | sure what type of sound you looking for? |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-05 | Alright ive taken measurements. The box can be up to 44 1/2" long. It can be up to 20 " tall, at 20" tall the box can be 1 ft wide. At a nicer level of 17" tall the box can be 13 1/4" wide. I want the subs to firing towards the rear of my extended cab s 10 with the ports firing whichever way you think is best. Im not sure if I want slot ports or circle ports. I want to have good sq which I understand comes from low tuned ported boxes but I still want it to be loud. If it will be substantially louder at a slightly higher tuning I would rather have them be louder. Im game for anything up to 35hz. I may power them with an old school rf 800a2 if they are 8 ohm subs. And also if the subs are firing into the rear of the cab they are going to have to be recessed into the box a couple inches or whatever the x max is. If you need any more info just ask cause im sure ive forgetten something. |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-05 | bump |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3211 Registered: Jun-04 | Lets do an isobaric face to face and youll hit down LOW. youll have to wire them out of phase positive negative on one sub and negative positive on another sub the box measurements will be 42.5 wide 15.5 high 11.5 deep all internal measurements with four 2 inch (id) ports 14.5 inches long each. This will tune you to 23 hz and give you 4.38 cf before the subs and ports are added and just drop them in and boom (after the speakers are broken in at moderate volumes of course)....use .75 mdf and your set. puth the ports on the top side of the box toward the ceiling a good few inches away from the subs. Isobaric In order to get more bass out of a smaller box, isobaric driver mounting was invented. An isobaric system is constructed of two (usually) identical drivers mounted in a small sealed subenclosure. Wired in phase, the drivers are mounted front-to-back with the same orientation (as shown). Wired out of phase, the drivers may be mounted with either with a front-to-front ("clamshell") or back-to-back orientation. Such opposed mounting is actually preferable since it discourages standing waves between the two drivers' cones. As opposed to arrays, an isobaric system may be considered a multiple driver system with its drivers acoustically in series rather than acoustically in parallel as in an array. Isobaric designs are inefficient, both acoustically and financially, yet they are a legitimate means of reducing the size of a system. Unlike arrays, isobaric systems enjoy no Vd advantage over single driver systems.. Isobaric systems may be either sealed or vented. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3212 Registered: Jun-04 | they do offer two benefits a smaller enclosure and more pronounced low end bass |
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Silver Member Username: GeekbikePost Number: 292 Registered: Dec-04 | I've never really seen the point of isobaric vented enclosures. An isobaric enclosures is about 6db less efficient than if the subwoofers were housed if the in their own enclosures. You'd gain 3db if you put them in a sealed enclosure instead. You'll gain some low end with an isobaric, but at the expense of efficiency. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3217 Registered: Jun-04 | i know knacko but this is the best low boom with good sq i could think of for these subs the box needs to be large for these things plus I thought wed try for something different. It will boom in that truck anyway and do it low while its at it. |
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Anonymous | Sean the isobaric idea sounds good but the subs that I have dont really need to be shown off you know, they are kind of ugly. Lol I just forgot the password to my account so I guess im back to anon |
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Anonymous | Sean the isobaric idea sounds good but the subs that I have dont really need to be shown off you know, they are kind of ugly. Lol I just forgot the password to my account so I guess im back to anon |
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Anonymous | And plus I want it to be as loud as possible and in my truck It sounds better when the subs face the rear. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3218 Registered: Jun-04 | well i helped you maybe someone else can now ....the subs need a large box to go low nicely thats why I choose this design |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-05 | Well do you think that maybe we could tune the box a little higher then? Its alright if I dont hit as low. Their is still room for bigger air space in the measurments I gave you could it be enough? Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: GeekbikePost Number: 294 Registered: Dec-04 | The mounting depth of the drivers is 7 1/8". If his S10 has a bench seat, it won't be possible. If he can drop the arm rest, isobaric would be an option. I found this too: http://www.kicker.com/images/manuals/02CompTechManualV2_0.pdf Hey Lou, if possible, it would be nice to get some pics of the back for us to work with. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3219 Registered: Jun-04 | I got the theil small parameters already and ran them |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-05 | Those picks are of a different woofer than mine, here let me try to post another pic of one. I can have some pictures of the back seat tomorrow but I dont know how to post them. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekbikePost Number: 295 Registered: Dec-04 | Ported isn't an option unless you go isobarically, or want to extend it up about another foot and a half. |
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Anonymous | http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D5785401351%26&sspagename= STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT%26 |
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Anonymous | http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D5785401351%26&sspagename= STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT%26 |
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Anonymous | so if I go ported isobarically what will be my total loss or gain from going sealed. If I gain more db by going sealed I will go sealed |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-05 | If I gain 3 db with sealed over isobaric ported ill go with sealed? |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3220 Registered: Jun-04 | those are the old kicker isobarics and they take small boxes and have great sq youll have to call kicker on those but youll have no problem fitting them |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3221 Registered: Jun-04 | solobarics i meant |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-05 | Yeah I know they have great sq my friend has the 12's and I love the way they sound. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekbikePost Number: 296 Registered: Dec-04 | You sure you want them rear firing? It's makes it much more difficult to build the box. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 181 Registered: Apr-05 | Lou, The Thiel small parameters for Kicker C154a, according to Bassbox 6 Pro database are as follows: Fs:18.22 Hz Qms:8.208 Vas:622.7 liters or 21.99 cu ft. (this is too high) Xmax:7.68mm Sd:845sq cm Qes.476 Re:3.44Ohms Le:.34mH Z:4Ohms Pe:500watts The Vas is extremely high. I am not sure if this is a typo, or infact this woofer has that large of a Vas. With a Vas of that capacity it requires a humongous box. It has a Qts of .53 (which is best suited for a closed box) Here are the graphs. The yellow is for the closed box. The red is for the vented box.  The closed box is 5.206 cu ft and has a cutoff (F3) at 37.76 Hz. (33.65" X 20.8" X 12.85" internal dimmensions for each sub.) The vented box is 25.96 cu ft. with a tuning frequency (Fb) at 14.82 Hz, and cutoff (F3) at 17.17 Hz. (57.49" X 35.53" X 21.96" internal dimmensions for each sub). The port is 4" in diameter by 2.18" long. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3222 Registered: Jun-04 | man i could have sworn they took small boxes |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 182 Registered: Apr-05 | Like I said, the Vas is way too high. Perhaps theres something wrong with the Ts in my database. Thats why it gave me a huge enclosure. But all the other parameters line up, otherwise I would get a red light next to the Vas, and it doesnt. This program has been compared to others out there and it came very accurate. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the manufacturers have posted a recomendation that doesnt suit the driver. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3223 Registered: Jun-04 | so far sealed compound isobaric looks good to me |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3224 Registered: Jun-04 | looks like 4.12 cf compound isobaric provides a fc of 35 hz and a 27.33 cutoff with a 1.02 qtc thats net meaning before the sub/subs and ports |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3225 Registered: Jun-04 | sealed compound isobaric |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3226 Registered: Jun-04 | the box measurements will be 42.5 wide 15.5 high 11.5 deep all internal measurements 4.38 cf with two 4 inch pvc ports 10.5 long |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3227 Registered: Jun-04 | opps no ports i firgot i gotta redo your meansurements then too |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3228 Registered: Jun-04 | 41.5 wide by 15.5 high by 11.5 deep 4.28 cf and drop the sub/subs in face to face and reverse the polarity on one from the other |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3229 Registered: Jun-04 | those are internal measurements |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 183 Registered: Apr-05 | Ok heres the Thiel small parameters for the Kicker C15 8a: Fs:17.34 Hz Qms:7.625 Vas:736.4 liters or 26.01 cu ft. (this is too high) Xmax:7.32mm Sd:845sq cm Qes.58 Re:6.07Ohms Le:.51mH Z:8Ohms Pe:500watts Here are the graphs. Yellow is for closed box 17.7 cu ft. with Fb at 12.72 Hz and F3 at 26.97 Hz. (50.6" X 31.27" X 19.33" internal dimmensions) The red is for vented 48.36 cu ft with Fb at 12.72 Hz and F3 at 13.06 Hz with a 6" diameter port by 4.124" long. (70.74" X 43.72" X 27.02" internal dimmensions)  |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3231 Registered: Jun-04 | dont you agree with the sealed compound isobaric i just did mixineffect? |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3232 Registered: Jun-04 | 41.5 wide by 15.5 high by 11.5 deep 4.28 cf and drop the sub/subs in face to face and reverse the polarity on one from the other sean Gold Member Username: Insearchofbass Post Number: 3229 Registered: Jun-04 Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 09:21 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- those are internal measurements |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 184 Registered: Apr-05 | I don't use WinISD beta. My program doesn't configure for isobaric enclosures. One thing that seems strange is the Vas. That number is way too high. I've never seen a Vas that high. |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 21 Registered: Jun-05 | are ported boxes better then sealed |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 185 Registered: Apr-05 | Ported boxes just basicly cheat the woofer into thinking there is actually more box volume (compared to a sealed box) and therefore produces lower frequencies in a smaller enclosure. Sound waves are cosine waves. So a speaker has to reproduce the wavelegths of a given frequency, by pumping air waves (like an air compressor) into the atmosphere. The larger the wavelength, the lower the note (frequency). Better? ...... hmmmmmm well lets just say that sealed enclosures produce a much cleaner response than a ported enclosure. Ported enclosures are sloppy and slow, compared to sealed enclosures. The only benefit is convenience of a smaller box and lower bass. |
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Bronze Member Username: TboltCollipark, GA Post Number: 39 Registered: Dec-04 | mixneffect, do u mean less or lower bass |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 23 Registered: Jun-05 | is it possible to make a sealed enclosure that doesnt sound good..like the angles are wrong and stuff...if i gave you dimensions to a box i want to build could you run them through that program to see if there good |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 187 Registered: Apr-05 | Ugh................ Great The database was way off. Here; I ran the paramenters from the link above. I got better results for the sealed box. The vented box is still quite large, but not that big as before. Again: The yellow is for the sealed box 2.58 cu ft Qtc .707 F3 38.01 Hz. (26.59" X 16.43" X 10.16" internal measurements) The red is for the ported box 12.19 cu ft Fb 16.63 Hz F3 16.75. Port is 4" X 7.068" long.  |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 188 Registered: Apr-05 | Richie, Give me the Speaker name, model number, and thiel parameters if you have them. Fs: Vas: Qts: Qms: Qes: Sd: Le: Re: Z: Pe: Just fill in the blanks on these if you have them, if not I will search them for you. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3235 Registered: Jun-04 | i didnt use winisd beta i used my own program but im glad you found the right specs mixneffect |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 189 Registered: Apr-05 | Juelz, I'm not sure what you mean. Vented boxes produce a more dynamic range (meaning they go lower than sealed boxes). They also have an increase in volume around the cutoff frequency (F3). Sealed boxes produce a much cleaner sound quality than ported boxes, but do not go as low as ported boxes. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 591 Registered: May-05 | Hallo there Mixneffect Where did you get the download of the "CAD" program looks nice and smart too... |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 190 Registered: Apr-05 | Ya I thought something was wrong. The database said Vas of 736!!! Wow, that was way off. It actually is 301.5, which is still high, but not as bad. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 191 Registered: Apr-05 | Andy, Check out this website. The program is called Bassbox 6 Pro and it may be upgraded with X-over Pro http://www.madisound.com/new.html |
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Bronze Member Username: TboltCollipark, GA Post Number: 40 Registered: Dec-04 | yeah thats what i meant, thx |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 593 Registered: May-05 | Thank you Mixneffect I'll have a look at the delights of how to build an enclosure..... |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 193 Registered: Apr-05 | If you are interested in building your own boxes, then I recomend a book, YES, A BOOK! "Great Sound Stereo Speaker Manual - With Projects" by David B. Weems. http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S=R&wauth=David+B.+Weems&siteID=WfbLd2h py3I-AyiqkY0ZG.PbsNgJ7yLHcw This guy taught me alot. He has a few volumes by now, but I am sure that they're all great. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekbikePost Number: 300 Registered: Dec-04 | I'm reading a book by Weems right now - "Designing, Building & Testing Your Own Speaker System - With Projects". Not much about enclosures, but it's still a good read. And Mixn, I don't suppose you'd want to send me X-over Pro? I've already got BassBox, but haven't been able to find X-over. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 195 Registered: Apr-05 | I got mine from my partner at the lab. So its not mine. It comes with registration and all that. |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 26 Registered: Jun-05 | 12" Infinity 1230W Fs: 27.27 Hz Vas: 2.78 cub ft Qts: 0.44 Qms: 6.14 Qes: 0.47 Sd: 82.48 sq in Le: 2.54 mH Re: 3.40 ohms Z: ----(but if u meant Xmax: 0.49 in) Pe: ---- and the box i designed is using 3/4" MDF with a slanted front. It is 15" tall, 13.5" wide, 18" deep on one side, and 12" deep on the other, with the slant going at a 114 degree angle up from the 12" side to the 18" side. Those are outer dimmensions. thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 27 Registered: Jun-05 | and the slanted front is where the sub goes, and it is a sealed box |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 30 Registered: Jun-05 | also is 3/4" MDF a good material for the box, i saw on crutchfield that that is what they use and on another site i saw that they make the part where the sub goes thicker--is this neccesary for my sub |
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New member Username: Big_louPost Number: 9 Registered: Jul-05 | Tell me exactly what you mean by sealed compound isobaric sean. |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3241 Registered: Jun-04 | im lost wether what i did was with the right specs now cuz im confused which theil small mixneffect is saying is right. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 196 Registered: Apr-05 | The last graph pic is with the specs in post #14 by Knacko. Just scroll up. These specs are allow for a 2.5 cf sealed box. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 197 Registered: Apr-05 | Richie, I m still at work, but i ll run those nubers for you later on tonite. |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 33 Registered: Jun-05 | ok thank you |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 198 Registered: Apr-05 | Richie, These calculations are what BassBox 6 Pro considers to be optimum box alignments. If you re happy with your dimensions, then keep it that way, otherwise here are your graphs: Yellow is sealed 1.136 Cu Ft with a cutoff at 49.93 Hz. (21.76" X 14.02" X 9.239") Red is ported 2.963 Cu Ft, tuned at 24.75 Hz, and a cutoff at 25.1 Hz. 3" port X 8.56" long. (29.51" X 18.81" X 12.2") These are external dimensions.  |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 37 Registered: Jun-05 | so would my box be bad |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 199 Registered: Apr-05 | no its almost perfect |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 200 Registered: Apr-05 | Richie, Your Dimmensions come out to be 1.262 Cu Ft. The optimum is 1.136 Cu Ft. You're off by almost diddly. In a closed box you could be off by alot more and still be ok. Here are your graphs: Yellow is optimum. It has a cutoff of 49.93 Hz. Red is your dimmensions. It has a cutoff of 49.84 Hz. I dont think you can get any more close than that. These are for sealed boxes.  |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 201 Registered: Apr-05 | Lou and Sean, Thanks for bearing with us on your thread. |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 38 Registered: Jun-05 | the one i made with the slant |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 39 Registered: Jun-05 | thats funny on my papaer it says the optimum is 1.25 for my sub i could make it that 1.13 and send u the dimensions for that |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 40 Registered: Jun-05 | dude your awesome thanks |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 204 Registered: Apr-05 | Ya, this is kool. My favorite part is, that antsy feeling you get right after you finish building the box, and you hurry it into the living room to play it on your home system, to see what you just built. |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 41 Registered: Jun-05 | if you have an AutoCAD DWF viewer i can send you a 3D render of the box |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 43 Registered: Jun-05 | this is the first box ive ever designed and/or made(havent made it yet)...is 3/4" MDF good for the material |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 207 Registered: Apr-05 | Its ok for low power applications. I recommend 1" MDF for better sound, or if you plan on thumping that thing. It cost like $30-40 a sheet for the 1", compared to $20-25 a sheet for 3/4". If you go with 1", the outside dimmensions will change. |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 48 Registered: Jun-05 | i know and i only have a 39" opening and the box i designed is in there but i will look at it tonight and i can probably keep the outside dimensions the same and make the insides smaller and maybe get to the 1.136 talk to you later |
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Bronze Member Username: LettoMilwaukee, WI Post Number: 42 Registered: Jun-05 | mixneffect... do you think you could run these numbers on that program of yours? I've been looking for something to tell me what the optimum box for these speakers would be. Nominal Impedance (IMP) 2 / 8 ohm DC Resistance (Re) 3.9 / 7.8 ohms Resonant Frequency (Fs) 26Hz Electrical "Q" (Qes) .374 Mechanical "Q" (Qms) 5.42 Total "Q" (Qts) .35 Equivalent Volume (Vas) 2.05 ft3 One Way Linear (Xmax) 13.2mm Cone Area (Sd) 350 cm2 Sensitivity (Spl) 89,9db RMS Power Handling (Pwr) 50 to 300 Speaker Displacement .05 ft3 Thanks! |
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Bronze Member Username: TboltCollipark, GA Post Number: 48 Registered: Dec-04 | Is there such thing as hdf and how does it compare to mdf |
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Gold Member Username: InsearchofbassPost Number: 3257 Registered: Jun-04 | mixneffect Silver Member Username: Mixneffect Orangevale , Ca. USA Post Number: 201 Registered: Apr-05 Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 01:26 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lou and Sean, Thanks for bearing with us on your thread. no problem mix those specs being wrong from the start threw me off |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 50 Registered: Jun-05 | well here is what i had to change the box to because im pretty sure with 1" MDF the slant box just wont work out in the area i need it to be  |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 52 Registered: Jun-05 | new dimensions internal height: 12" - depth: 10" - width: 17" volume: 1.181 sq. in. |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 215 Registered: Apr-05 | Are there two woofers in this box, or just one? If its just one, then why is there a space in between the two chambers? |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 216 Registered: Apr-05 | Letto, Here are your graphs: Yellow is sealed .468 Cu Ft / 13.24 Liters. Frequency cutoff is 59.37 Hz. (15.07" X 9.314" X 7.566") These are INTERNAL DIMMENSIONS. Red is ported 1.037 Cu Ft / 29.37 Liters. Tuning frequency is 28.13 Hz. Cutoff frequency is 34.28 Hz. Port is 2" X 8.729". (19.78" X 12.23" X 7.566") These are INTERNAL DIMMENSIONS.  |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 55 Registered: Jun-05 | the thing in the middle is the amp and there are two subs |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 56 Registered: Jun-05 | hey mix can you run these dimensions for the box Internal: height-13 depth-14 width-12 volume - 1.263 sq in  |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 57 Registered: Jun-05 | thats with 1" MDF i really liked the wedge box i made but it was with 3/4" MDF |
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Bronze Member Username: LettoMilwaukee, WI Post Number: 47 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks mix |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 58 Registered: Jun-05 | nevermind mix i dont need you to run thos numbers, i dont want to keep bothering you cause i just keep revising the boxes like crazy..if the sq. ft. is around 1.136 should the box be good? like was it only that good cause of the shape of the box. cause this is the one i made now so its between the above on and this one.  |
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Bronze Member Username: RichierchPost Number: 59 Registered: Jun-05 | is it bad if there facing eachother even though they'rer at and angle |
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Silver Member Username: MixneffectOrangevale, Ca. USA Post Number: 233 Registered: Apr-05 | Ya you should be fine with 1.136 Cu Ft in a closed box. Even if you are off by.1 Cu Ft in a closed box, the response will not change drastically. In other words, yes, just do it, you will be fine. As far as woofers facing each other it would only cause problems (IMO) if they were so close as to cause the opposing woofer to be pushed back in as the firing woofer is pumping outwards. In other words you would need extreme volumes (2000 watts+). If they are at an offset (angle), then that would be better. |
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Bronze Member Username: JmmcoolManistee, MI United States Post Number: 32 Registered: Jul-04 | hey, wanna run my Kappa Perfect 12.1d ? Ported. THanks! |
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