Looking for a good SQ/SQL subwoofer!!
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Bronze Member Username: JbaileyIndianapolis, Indiana Post Number: 17 Registered: Mar-05 | I am currently looking for a sub to possibly replace my Kappa Perfect 12.1. Sound quality is an absolute must, but I wouldn't mind having a bit more performance than the Perfect 12.1 I have now. At the moment I'm investigating the Image Dynamics IDQ12V.3, RE SE or SX (12"), Adire Koda 12, and Atlas 12 from Ascendant Audio. Prices are all fairly reasonable so that isn't much of a concern. I listen to about every type of music, from classical to rap, so it can't be a one trick pony. It needs to be able to handle the low end and still keep up on fast transients and complex patterns. I love the quality of sound I get from my Kappa Perfect but would like more performance without sacrificing SQ. However, I don't want a sub that is too overpowering and overshadows my components. Would any of these subs fit the bill? Also, I have an amp that puts out roughly 425-450 watts RMS to the sub, so whatever I get needs to be able to achieve its full potential with that amount of power. Thanks for your help. |
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Silver Member Username: Bnd_rulezPhoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 179 Registered: Mar-05 | You can't go wrong with the SQ from an ID sub. The RE SX is mainly SPL, the Adire is almost al SQ. I would go with the AA Atlas 12". They have adjustable QTs so you can change what kind of sound you are getting. Check the subs forum, there should be a thread about it still running. Or ask JW about the Atlas 12" |
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Bronze Member Username: JbaileyIndianapolis, Indiana Post Number: 18 Registered: Mar-05 | I know the ID subs are known for sound quality but how much if any of an improvement in SPL will I notice over my Perfect? I know this isn't necessarily everything, but the linear Xmax (one way) is about the same for the two subs so I'm wondering if the ID would offer much of a performance gain. The Adire and Atlas subs advertise a significant Xmax improvement (about 18mm compared to 14mm), but I want to know if they can maintain the level of SQ that the Perfect and ID subs can. Also, how about power requirements for the Atlas and Adire subs? Is 425-450 RMS enough to drive them to their full potential? Also, how about the RE SE sub rather than the SX? Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: James1115Wilton, Ct Post Number: 2204 Registered: Dec-04 | I am gonna quote jonathan yet again!lol! " Ported boxes rely more on motor strength than excursion, with a ported box near tuning you're really throwing X-max out of the window as the subs excursion will be severely limited by the activation of the port, you can verify this using WinISD alpha and looking at the excursion charts for subs, you'll see that a sub is at it's shortest throw at the tuned frequency of a ported enclosure, and will be limited for a certain bandwidth above the tuned frequency. You won't hit full x-max at tuning like you would at the resonant frequency of a sealed system. Fact of the matter is that with a ported box, if you put a 32mm x-max sub with a BL (motor strength) of say 15 tesla-meters, against a 20mm x-max sub with a BL of 20 tesla-meters, the one with the shorter throw and the stronger motor would win out, assuming you talking about being near tuning anyway. Digital Designs 9500 series has an x-max around 15mm and wins multiple SPL comps all over the place." So you see if you were to go vented x-max really isnt as much of a factor as it plays in a sealed enclosure. Hope you dont mind jon you just say things much better then I do  |
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Silver Member Username: Bnd_rulezPhoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 222 Registered: Mar-05 | 2 Atlas's in 3 cubes of sealed enclosre would be great. Th Atlas only needs like 250 watts of power. |
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Bronze Member Username: JbaileyIndianapolis, Indiana Post Number: 20 Registered: Mar-05 | Does anyone have an opinion on how the ID sub would compare to my Perfect regarding SPL? Also, do the Koda 12 and Atlas 12 subs compare equally with the Perfect and ID subs for SQ or at least close? Will the Koda and Atlas subs have significant performance gains over the other two? I will probably be using a ported box with whatever volume is required by the sub I choose. Thanks for the help. |
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Bronze Member Username: JbaileyIndianapolis, Indiana Post Number: 21 Registered: Mar-05 | Also, I looked up the BL specs for the subs I'm interested in and the Kappa Perfect actually has the highest rating at 12.93. So am I to assume it will probably be hard to outperform the Perfect by much if using a vented enclosure? On a side note, does the BL change (up or down) if the voice coils are wired in a series rather than parallel? Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 3628 Registered: May-04 | Remember that there is no end all be all spec on the performance of a sub, be it ported, sealed, etc. Ratings vary between manufacturers, and while specs help, it won't give you the definite answer to their performance. Suspension of the sub matters as well, the resonant frequency of it, the tuning frequency you choose for a ported box, there are just a lot of factors in choosing. You could go ahead and try building a ported box for your Perfect and make the most out of what you have, if you don't like the results then look into getting a different sub. BL is BL, it relates to motor strength and is not affected by the wiring of the subwoofers. BL also varies with excursion, you can't just go by the spec. The post I had above was with a specific application and was an example intending all other things to be set equal, and I intended it to be used in a general sense, just to clarify. Even if BL was higher, other variances in the sub design can change results, be it in a good or bad way. Anyway, I'd try porting the Perfect for now, if you don't like it, then look into other subs. |
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Bronze Member Username: JbaileyIndianapolis, Indiana Post Number: 22 Registered: Mar-05 | Hey Jonathan, I do have the Perfect in a ported box right now and it just doesn't have quite the output I was looking for. I don't want a ground pounder, but when I listen to rap or electronic music I do want something that can hit pretty hard and low, but can also handle fast transients. The sub also has to perform well with all the other music I listen to from classical to alternative. The Perfect has great SQ and isn't bad on SPL, but I would like something with more output without sacrificing any SQ. Any suggestions? Have you had any experience with the subs I mentioned (IDQ 12, Adire Koda 12, Atlas 12, RE SE 12)? Any thoughts on these or others? Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 3631 Registered: May-04 | Out of those, the Atlas and Adire would offer more benefit from the SPL side, SQ would remain good. You could also look at the Eclipse Aluminums, the older 8800 series is online in some places and on ebay, those are awesome in a ported box and work well with the power level. SQ is great as well. |
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Silver Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 885 Registered: Sep-04 | BL is BL You sure? "B" is magnetic field strength, but there's an "L" in there as well. A DVC sub wired in series has twice the "L" as one wired in parallel, or so I thought. I always figured two voice coils in parallel was analogous to one "big" voice coil, twice as "fat" with half the resistance, but with the same number of turns. Read this: If there are several voicecoils, then you must be careful when entering parameters in that case, because many manufacturers give Bl in voice coils in series, because it yields double value for Bl against parallel connection. If driver manufacturer gives Qes, Bl and Cms or Mms, then you can check how Bl is specified. For that, you can enter following parameters to calculate Re: Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Bl. Connection mode can be changed by changing the combobox selection. The driver editor then converts Bl and Re values accordingly. Equivalently, you can check for Bl by entering: Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Re (for desired connection mode). If you enter resistance for parallel connection and get about half of advertised Bl, then you know, that Bl was specified that way. From WinISD alpha(0.507a) help It guess it doesn't really matter when comparing different DVC subs as long as the manufactures are consistent in how they measure that BL, but according to this Hartikanen guy it does make a difference when entering TS parameters for a new driver in WinISD. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 3637 Registered: May-04 | I had it mixed up, was thinking of just motor strength, forgot about that. Oops on my part, thanks for straightening that out . |
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Silver Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 889 Registered: Sep-04 | Well I just found this yesterday and I wanted to make sure. This new WinISD is pretty powerful compared to the old one. You can model cabin gain now with a linkwitz transform, hehe, and add crossovers and stuff, but man, entering those TS parameters can be a big PITA. It will NOT let you save a driver if there's any inconsistencies at all. You gotta be real careful not to give it too much information. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: Jonathan_fGA USA Post Number: 3643 Registered: May-04 | "You can model cabin gain now with a linkwitz transform" FINALLY, maybe now they can get some reasonably accurate SPL numbers. |
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Silver Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 898 Registered: Sep-04 | Unfortuantely the simple Linkwitz tranform I used produces accurate results only for the gain curve, but its still pretty cool. I dropped a 10w6v2(and a few others) with JL's recommended sealed enclousure along with aproximate transfer function of my Explorer and a 80 Hz lowpass filter and got some really pretty and symetrical curves. Look, here's a couple gain plots for the V3 version of your IDmax I uploaded for someone: http://home.comcast.net/~guppyrig/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-2127804.h tml The plot for the sealed 10w3 was even more symmetrical, but the IDmax's ported box looks a lot better than the JL's. -Fishy |
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Bronze Member Username: JbaileyIndianapolis, Indiana Post Number: 26 Registered: Mar-05 | So does the BL increase as impedance goes up, say from 4ohms to 8ohms? |
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