Monster Cables THX? what's the deal
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| Hi theyre guys. I am working on my home theater and thought I would go with the Monster cable THX series for component and coax. and my sub. ALso I will use their 14g. wire for my JBL scs150 speakers. Does that sound ok? I have tried to find review and feedback on the THX series. Can anyone please help me. |
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Berny | Only if you are purchasing these items because of cosmetic reasons and not anything else. Here are some references on cables. http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Audio-Cable-Vendor.html http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/audiocablesreligion-or-science.html To be honest I am using Monster cable and even some of their THX series, but my main reason is because I can get them real cheap and I think it looks cool. I used to run Radio Shack cables and regular 14 gauge wire for speakers and I don't hear any difference. I am using Kenwood 7080 as a pre-amp and the Outlaw Audio 7100, 7 channel power amp with Athena ASF-2 and Axiom M50ti for my speakers, so the equipment is not really in question, and I've used both types of cables on them and there is no difference. So if you want to spend the money on THX cables, I say go for it, but don't be misled by far out claims, and don't make it the reason for buying them. cheers |
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Robert | Rofl! Oh boy. Sorry. I'm trying to stop laughing at the last post. Evelynn, I can't help you on whether Monster is the right choice, I haven't used them. I did want to post to tell you to ignore the last post. Anybody that claims there is no difference between cables either: 1. Has a hearing or vision problem. 2. Can't comprehend the difference. 3. Doesn't want to hear or see the difference. The people in the first 2 categories should go to Radio Shack to buy their cables, why waste the money on the good stuff? The people in the last category are just ignorant. If people have you doubting whether to spend the money for better cables, do this: Take your 'supplied with your component' cables to a hifi store. Ask a salesman to substitute your cable on one of their systems because you want to hear the difference. Give them both a good listen. This is the simplest and best test I can think of. If you hear no difference, maybe you fall into one of the first 2 categories and you just saved yourself some money, head to Radio Shack. If you do, enjoy your new Monster's or whatever you decide to buy.  |
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Cain | oh no, another golden eared snake oil buying audiophile! Sorry but I am laughing at your post, Robert!!! I fall into the category of doing double blind tests so my judgement is not clouded by outrageous claims, kind of person. I have no hearing nor vision problems and I do want to believe that if I spend 50 bucks a foot on wire, there had better be a damn difference, unfortunately there is none. Although using component vs s-video vs composite are worlds apart, to me are very visible. And using "stock" cables seem to have a slight difference over aftermarket cables, the latter being better quality. I doubt about the comprehension part, which you are using in the wrong context, by the way! Also there is a few other categories, which you may fall under: 1. The sucker who got duped into paying more than what is necessary for cables, so you hate anybody who just tells you otherwise. 2. A cable sales person, who want other people to buy the snake oil you are selling. 3. A person who is done halfway through sex! hahaha now, that's funny! Ignore that! (roflmao) Sorry about that, Evelyn..can you tell this is a very sensitive topic. Anyhoo, Robert is right, that you might want to go to a dealer and listen for yourself...but, you should "not" be aware if the cables being used are Rat Shacks or Monsters and if you can tell the difference, head on to the other side...heheh! |
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Robert | The last post proved my point. He falls into the 3rd category. He does not want to hear a difference because a cable cost $50 a foot so he isn't going to. Get yourself a dictionary bud. Comprehend - To take in the meaning, nature, or importance of; grasp. I used it correctly, you're just too ignorant to understand it. Let me put it in a sentence you can understand. A person with good hearing that can't tell the sound quality difference between an mp3 and the actual cd would not comprehend the sound difference between cables. Oh, and you're right, there is another category. People that can't afford better cables, so they get pissed when the subject is brought up and refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference. The same people that would never buy a BMW because their Ford is just as good.  |
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Berny | Dang, Robert, you sound really PO'd. Sorry about starting a flame war, but hey, I'm just stating some of my preferences. And that is just what they are, nothing more. The choice is in everyone of us. But calling me ignorant (or is that for Cain?) will not change anything, I have done plenty of research when I bought my equipment, to some it will have been a poor choice but then again, it is what I like and it is my money. I had 6 of my self proclaimed audiophile friends come over to my place so we can end our debate over cables, party thereafter. Our reference equipment were an Outlaw 950/7100 combo (nobody likes my Kenwood, bums) and the Axiom Epic 80 system. We used cables from Audioquest, Monster, and Silver Serpents...they didn't even want my old gold Radio Shacks...just not cool enough, but we wanted to be fair. Not one of them could tell the difference as to which cables were being used, and mind you most of us have been into the audio scene for more than 25 years. One of them is an electrical engineer and who has been touting all along that we were fools for buying cables because of its scientific claims...he had the "I told you so attitude" after the test, he lambasted us regarding our beliefs on better cables, ironically, he owned the Silver Serpents...which he claims he bought on cosmetic reasons alone. No one got pissed after the test... that came around after we all got drunk. What we had was an eye opening experience, or is that ear opening?!? Some got a smug attitude, like that engineer, but hey, he's always been a bum. And as for myself, I just wanted to replace my Kenwood with the Outlaw 950, which I will sometime soon...I tried to keep the my friend's 950 but he wouldn't have it. Some of us still have SAEs, Soundcraftsman and Carver in our homes, and we all got rid of our Bose, but I digress, it's about the cable. Have you done anything like this, if you did, and you can tell the difference, hey, you are a special. All of us can tell the difference between cd's, sacd's and mp3's but they are not cables are they? I can afford expensive cables, I just can't buy into the pseudo science they are trying to push, Audioquest is an example. I buy them solely on the basis of its coolness factor. Oh, and I drive a Mercedes...the BMWs are just too pretentious...it was my choice. cheers |
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Anonymous | It's crap in most cases. If these know-it-all-audiophiles WANT to hear better quality then they will. Quite the opposite of what Robert has been saying. Unless you have some sort of mental disorder that requires to only be comfortable with "only the best" (like Obsessive Compulsive type maybe?) then you don't have to worry entirely too much on spending loads of cash on marketing gimmicks. I have subperb hearing and I can see even subtle differences in audio/video.. the differences, if any, are slim at best. |
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Jeff | I'm assuming you've already bought your cables, Evelynn, but i thought i'd post something anyways. What matters in cables is their shielding, connection, and thickness. Obviously the THX monster cables will be multi-shielded, gold plated connections, and reasonable thick, thus better than the stock cables. Are they a good deal? That depends on how much they are costing you. I'd compare them with similar lines from other brands like acoustic research (what i have), etc. Ignore the THX part. |
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dubz Unregistered guest | you guys talking about speaker wire or interconnects?? the highest end stuff is a rip off, unless you've got some serious interference problems. but i wouldn't go buy some cheap radio shack stuff, there is a middle ground, and its the best place to be. maybe its me, but i switched my 14 guage speaker wire (descent stuff, not cheapy but not mega $$$$) to some diy cat5 speaker wire which took forever to make, and when i crank it it sounds better, i noticed it the first few times i cranked it. |
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dubz Unregistered guest | oh yeah, and i buy monster everything, usually monster 2 but i get it 60% off! might as well |
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Taylor Unregistered guest | I had some serious interference problems with some of my ou-of-box cables, and I've had pins snap on s-video cables, and even bent plugs, so I buy monster cables because I like the beefier construction. Plus, radioshack doesn't have 16ft long subwoofer cables |
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Unregistered guest | interconnects... the main difference I hear in shielded and straight wire interconnects, the straight wire ones, sound more clear in the mids, more detailed. You can even hear it on a mid-fi stereo. Yes straight wire wrapped in a braid (no shielding) No Hum |
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New member Username: Lx50373Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2004 | robert, i just want to ask what kind of wires are in your speakers,amp, cd, dvd..... open them up and let us all know! Ok.... I think if you spend any more money on wires for you'r equipment than what was used in building you'r equipment than you are throwing money away. JMHO |
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New member Username: Lx50373Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2004 | An Honest Answer from Sound & Vision (2001) Here's an answer by Ian Masters in the May 2001 issue of Sound & Vision, page 36 Q&A. Note: I saw no speaker wire advertisements in this issue! "Cheap Wire Q. Would it be okay for me to use single conductor wire as speaker cables running through the attic or under the house? Does stranded wire provide some sonic benefit? It would be far cheaper and easier for me to run 12-gauge wire to a plate with banana receptacles and then use specialty cable at each end to patch to the amplifier and speakers. Jon Schwendig, Santa Clara, CA A. There are a lot of myths about speaker wires, but in the end it's thickness that counts, and 12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application. I've taken several comparative listening sessions over the years, and the sort of wire you want to use involves no sonic degradation that I (or anybody else in the tests) could hear. You could even wire the whole distance from amp to speakers using 12-gauge, but it would probably be more convenient to use something more flexible for the actual connection to components. Specialty audiophile cables would serve that purpose nicely, although more modest cables would work just as well." |
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Bronze Member Username: TonytigerPost Number: 22 Registered: 02-2004 | Choice of connection wires and speakers....two subjects that draw tremendous emotional responses. My 2 cents (and only worth that) is that wires are in two categories for any specific application. They are either adequate or inadequate. A 50 foot run under your floor through the same wood holes as your electrical wiring with 24 gauge wire to your subwoofer and you will be in the inadequate mode. Number 10 welding wire in the same run would be adequate but may cost 150 times as much. If you had inadequate wiring for an application I would guess replacing with premium wire would make a significant sound difference. But my, how complex the equation would be to discover the least cost, highest 'adequacy' of wiring. So most of us 'suckers' err on the premium side knowing full well that there are less expensive adequate solutions. I must admit more than once I ran out of premium cables and patched some old RCA connectors into the system for the time being. They may have been adequate and I heard no difference so I may swear to all that would listen that using premium wires is a waste of money in all applications. More than likely RCA or SONY or whoever isn't going to throw cables in the box that make their device sound crappy. But did you ever get an 18 gauge cable in the box with a device that is 25' long (the cable not the device)? Probably not because the manufacturer may know that would cross into the inadequate zone. Much like speakers, if you think you can improve it, you probably can, but it will cost you money. Subjective improvement? Maybe. I agree that speakers make a greater difference in overall sound but wiring may play a smaller part in specific situations. So my 2 cents took at least 25 cents of time to read, sorry. |
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Paul UK Unregistered guest | Within regard to speaker cables making a difference, in all honesty in my experience I do believe that one can sometimes hear very subtle differences. BUT, to actually notice these differences straight off you really have to nitpick to notice them (or furthermore another has to point them out), and I would suggest that you are not in fact enjoying listening to music but wasting your valuable time (and money if you are buying expensive cables that is) when you could be doing something a lot more constructive. If you can't hear an obvious difference off the cusp, no doubt there isn't one, and it's more than just most likely, in your head! ...I also believe one's ears benefit from "burn-in" (or that could be detriment?) |
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JackBlack Unregistered guest | My feel for cables is simple. I am one of you guys who believes that it's all in the head. If you got dupped by some Monster cables sales-man then you will believe what he told you. You came to him for advice on your set-up and he planted the seed in your mind that expensive cables are the "BEST". And you'll swear that he was right b/c you just shelled out over $50 for a set of Monsters. Yes the cables have a purpose. First, TO PICK UP GIRLS! Second, they are very clean and nice to look at. And thirdly, they compliment your $3000 TV and $2500 surround sound system. But I'll tell you something as a electronics repair-man. The cables that you use will give you a very slim difference in quality. First, to see a big difference you must compare some cheap cables to some $500-$1000 24K gold stranded cables. Second, you must use the same cable INSIDE your electronics. For example, if you open any electronic you will see the basic 22-18ga. copper wire inside your receiver or TV. DVD players have even thiner wire. So what are those expensive cables going to do for you?? Nothing!Someone please tell me if I'm wrong. And Lastly, the expensive cables that are the new craz today are not worth all the money. If you cut open any expensive brand you will see thicker insulation, possibly larger gauge size, and the ends will be 24k gold plated. Now, do you think that spending $50-75 for a cable is worth it? Since you can go and buy some $15-25 cable that will be just as good. I guess that buying expensive cables is a luxury. If you got money to burn, why not. Your probably loaded and spending $100 for a set of Monster 3's. Or your a stupid a*s and just blew your check on cables that aren't giving you jack. I use basic stuff. I got HD TV and compared the Monster with the cheaper stuff. I would rather put the money I saved into my motorcycle. |
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JohnDavid Unregistered guest | In most businesses, the big profits are often in unexpected places. In restaurants its the booze not the food. In electronics stores I'll bet its in extended warranties and cables. Just say no to both of them. As an electronics engineer I know that some cable characteristics are important. Speaker wires really do need to be as fat as you can manage because its a very low impedance circuit. Interconnects need to be shielded and the pins not corrode ( hence a gold plating). Beyond that, its mostly in your imagination. Even Radio Shack is on the bandwagon. They have 6ft DVI cables for $100 (vs $17 on the web - I have not tested them though). They even have gold plated optical cables. Has anyone told them that these cables are designed to NOT conduct electricity? Marketing hype all of it. |
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greerb Unregistered guest | OK, the big qestion is how much did you pay for the system? Is it a high end or low end system? As in my case I have a 5 year old Sony 36" Wega, RCA reciever wich came with all the speakers for $350, I later bought new Quest tower speakers for $200 candadian. And am running a LG DVD player. My point is my entire audio system is about $700 canadian. I am not going to buy expesive cables for that kind of system. Now I probably would if I spent 10-20K on a setup. I am just running generic wire all of the video is svideo majoity of my audio is RCA cables my DVD player's audio is Opticaland the sat. reciever is coaxial. I just watched the Star Was Trilogy DVD ,and I am happy with it. |
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MarkMark Unregistered guest | You have to think of the signal. Video/component/digital, go with coax. Higher wavelengths need shielding. Audio wavelenght is much lower, so no need to shield, unless going near a neon ballast or electric motor. Just wire around them. Use regular RG-6 coax cables, buy a roll of 25 feet or more. Cut to length and use manual screw-on RG-6 coax connectors (sharp knife needed or buy a coax tool for 15$). Then use coax-to-RCA connectors at either end. Do this for all your cables, using colored tape at both ends to find your wires. Do this for all component connections, anything that has RCA ends. For the speakers, instead of 18 or 16 gage regular speaker wire, try 14 or 12 if the speakers are far away and/or you are outputting excess of 100 watts per. You could use coax for audio, but having to use two coax for replacing audio cables is both ugly and huge. I've saved everyone in my family and some neighbords hundreds of $$ by NOT buying any Monster cables. A DVD connected to a 42" plasma-tv in 16-9 mode 1080i. Father in law had spent 150$ for 6 foot component Monster cables. It took me 10 minutes cutting to length RG-6 coax and putting the connectors on replacing the Monster cables. Result :: ZERO visible difference !! For audio, 14 gage wire for the surround speakers versus the Monster audio cables. ZERO difference. These are 100watt max Bose sat speakers. For the sub-woofer, used again RG-6, sounded perfect, still no difference. The manager at FutureShop had a fit when my Father-in-law returned all those wires for 200+$ refund. The law in Quebec, Canada is within 7 days merchant has to take it back or give credit. Compromise was a in-store gift certificate...he bought DVD's of his fav Hitchcook movies... Regards! |
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bedens Unregistered guest | MarkMark: It never dawned on me to just run RG-6. The overpriced component video stuff is usually RG-6 anyway. Thanks for the idea. It will save me at least $30.00 and I can get the exact length that I need. |
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E. Ramsey Unregistered guest | Evelynn, please read my post on Monster thx cables. E. Ramsey AAS industrial electronics |
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Unregistered guest | Audiophiles Pay attention. A cable is a conductor. It's impedance is a measure of it's resistivity and this is a function of material purity, length and diameter of the conductor. This means, in plain terms, the gauge of the wire is what maters. The longer the run, the bigger the wire. I also want to mention that the connectors are also important. for those of you who swear by gold, you should consider that the copper-gold interface will corrode as there is a difference in electro-negativity. Yes people, corrosion is an electrical process. Purity of the material is of importance. The only other mitigating factor would be interference. Shielding generally solves this. jackblack also points out something often forgotten about an that is the fact that the crap in the component is good enough for the chemists, engineers, QA scientists and support staff that made your multi-thousand dollar widget and if you are curious, you will be slightly less enthusiastic. It's science people, not magic. And if you still hear a difference, don't worry about it, not everyone gets physics. If it was easy everyone would do it. By the way, don't take my word for it, do your own damn research. Get a f.u.c.k.i.n.g microphone and some clean test signals and an oscilloscope and measure the difference your self. |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 13 Registered: Feb-05 | Good post Enotile! I fully concur with you except for one point. Audio and speaker wire and interconnects are based upon the principles of science,engineering,electricity and physics. There is no mysticism, magic or "faith" about such. To believe that your ears can hear what instruments cannot measure shows: A) A lack of understanding about electricity and electronics,B)Denial of the fact that anything that can be heard by the human ear can be measured,C)A blind misguided devotion to charlatans in the audio industry who are out to take advantage of you and steal your money. The best thing to do is to take a realistic perspective . By decent interconnects and speaker wires but not extravagantly expensive ones. $30 for a Monster cable may seem like a sizable amount of money to some and I am not pushing the brand but a cable that costs ten times as much will offer no better,or diffrence in performance that can be heard and very little that can be measured. The only way that an audible difference could be heard between speaker wire or interconnects is if one in the comparison were poorly designed and not based upon sound engineering principles and had undesirable characteristics like a high capacitance-which it would have to be very high to be audible. It is however very doubtful, that any decent audio manufacturer who designs and tests their product would suffer the marketing of such a grossly incompetent engineered product in this day and age. In short by decent cables and speaker wire because there is a diffrence between a $20 cable and the el cheapo "red and white" that came with equipment, this diffrence is called "shielding". With speaker wire of course, there is a bit more lattitude but the larger the gauge the better. Anyone that says that speaker wire "x" at $20 a foot is better than zipcord of the same gauge at 99 cents per foot is a liar and should be ignored which is similar word to the thinking of this type of person"ignorant". I must however disagree with you about oxizidation in copper wire. The process of oxizidation is NOT an electrical process but a CHEMICAL one. The absence or presence of electrical current flowing through the wire is irrelavant. If you insert a speaker wire or any copper wire in a gold banana plug but do connect it to a source of electricity and leave it lying around,it will still oxidize without the presence of electrical current. The copper will over time react with oxygen in the air to form copper oxide. This is of course, assuming that the wire is just inserted and not made "airtight" in the banana plug by the connection being sealed. E. Ramsey AAS industrial electronics |
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G_Trump Unregistered guest | Too bad this forum, like most, denigrates into a contest between education, salesmanship and character assesment. Many points given above are correct, even those which on first glance are contradictory. Having been in the Consumer Electronics manufacturing business, experience confirms that manufacturers include the cheapest accessories for their components. Their reasoning is not limited to supplying the minimum number of items to get an item working. Market pressures preclude including cables or other accessories that might move the anticipated street price of an item above the catagory average. Just check out the batteries that come with remote controls! If you appreciate build quality, buy better products of all kinds. Monster (not one of my favourites) does have nicely built gear. So does Kimber, A/R and a bunch of others. Can you hear/measure the difference? That depends. Psychoacoustics do play a large part in this but there is independant engineering documentation to support using better cabling. Again, build quality is what the money is paying for. Somewhere on this site is a woman who broke off the tip of the cheapo RCA connector in the DVD player (I think). I have not heard of this happening to the higher end connectors (doesn't mean it hasn't, just that I haven't heard about it.) As Eric Ramsey notes above, a gas tight connection is the ideal, although not always met. I generally builld custom connectors for my clients from better quality RG6 cabling with 75 ohm compression fit connectors. Looks great, sounds great and they aren't particularly expensive. Everyone wins. Speaker wire in the walls needs to meet or exceed the National Electric Code of whichever country you are in. Inwall residential cabling needs to meet FT4 (Flame Test 4) specification for both Canada and the US. Cabling to be installed in the ceiling space of most commercial environments needs to be riser or plenum rated cabling. There is also the perception that the cabling inside a component has to be up to snuff as well. Since most electronic components no longer have point-to-point wiring (everything is directly soldered to the various boards), this is not generally applicable. As for loudspeakers (one product catagory that has redefined the concept of price-point-engineering) the amount of wire in a given design is a minor part of it's overall cost and it's sonic performance. And those are my thoughts on the topic. |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 17 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks for the post G Trump. It's good to see a sensible viewpoint such as yours from someone in the cable/speaker wire industry. I myself have an electronics background/education, so I always see things from a realistic and scientific standpoint. The fact of the matter is that yes as a consumer you do need to buy decent cables but not necessarily expensive ones and you seemed to be in full agreement with me on this matter. I also would like to add that I agree with you that there is actual evidence that supports using "better cabling" which translates to "shielded" cabling which you won't get with "inbox" cables supplied with equipment. It still baffles me how someone can claim to hear a diffrence between cables when many of them have been tested over and over again scientifically and have shown no audible diffrence and very little diffrence in micro level parameters such as capcitance and inductance, irregardless of the price of the cables. I would surely love to meet some of these "golden eared" elite that claim that the can hear the diffrence between a $30 cable and a $300 one when highly accurate sophisticated electronic testing instruments measurements say otherwise. What is even more disgusting is that these "golden eared" audiophile types want to insult you for not being able to afford cable brand "x" for $50/foot. Like the ancient Chinese proverb goes "a fool and his money are soon parted". E. Ramsey AAS industrial electronics |
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Anonymous | It's an expensive hobby. The only money you might waste is your own. So what's the big deal? |
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michigander Unregistered guest | I don't feel sorry for the guy that spends more money for better cable(sound),I feel sorry for the guy that can't hear the diffrence. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 117 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't feel sorry for the guy who cannot hear a difference, Instead celebrate that you have been bestowed by divine means the supernatural ability to hear a very low level flow of electrons through a small guage wire. E.Ramsey |
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michigander Unregistered guest | I'm not sure why I can hear the diffrence but I can.I changed my 16 ga. zip cord to 14 ga. zip cord of what I though was better wire and the change was very easy to hear.The sound became much brighter and harsh, I was never able to Ajust the cross over setting or speaker placement to get the sound right. The only solution was to run the front speaker though the sub speaker hook up. Went to the Great Indoors the other day and saw some Z1 Monster Cable on clearance. The diffrence in sound was amazing no more running though the sub and no harsh highs, better bass and vocals. |
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Roger-Canna Unregistered guest | Best thing you can do is try various brands and draw your own conclusions. I ended up using these speaker cables after sampling several brands including Bettercables, Monster, AR, Sound King and home depot zipcord. |
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EGO Unregistered guest | Working for a highend audio video chain store ( i cant say where, but the biggest in north amercia) I must say that there " IS " a big difference with what cables and components u use. First of all a set of Componet cables will tottaly make a difference. If you are simply using a low END DVD player to plug it into a peice of crap TV then there is no point in buying $100 dollar cables. If you have a Decent TV, and Dvd player, investing in the MOnster THX would be a good idea. May I stress the monster THX are good but, not that good compared to the Monster Ultra that would give you about 60% better quality, proven and tested myself. Aside from the cables you gotta look at your POWER SOURCE. Are you plugging your hometheatre system into a little winky $15 dollar surge bar? If yes, then here is your problem. Dirty power, such as using a cheap powerbar will degrade your sound, video signifigantly. The monster powerbars that are over $100, would be something you should be looking at. First the power bar cleans all the power so that you will be recieve pure clean power. 2nd, the power would be stabalized and seperated for each component. Therefore everything u plug into the bar is acutally seperated and not all running through the same line. The bar would increase quality and esp sound by as much as 30%. Video noise, unwanted static could be eliminated with this bar. Trying comparing the blacks and the colors as well as the sharpness of your picture when u are using the monster, im sure if you are not blind you will see the difference ;of course given that you set your TV and dvd player right. One question you should ask yourself is why would you spend $5000 on a home theatre system and cheap out on cables, even worse the power that protects your investment * monster bar. Aside from all this, im sure some people will change their home theatre system every few years, but did you know monster equipment has lifetime warranty, and if anything u used with it was burned out, say u plug ur TV to the bar and it went bunk, monster would pay up to 150,000 for anything u have lost. Last but not least audio cables do make a diff, monsters audio cable are made with pure copper, static shielded, and foam injected along with most of the other cables, which means you wont loose quality if you were to bend them. Think of a garden hose, you bend it u loose water. I hope I have educated you guys enough, if the cables arent doing it for you, it must be some settings you have made wrong, or you are missing the monster powerbar; or even your equipment is bad. Good luck guys, dont cheap out on cables. You buy a ferrari you gotta buy 94 octane gas! |
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Silver Member Username: ClaudermilkPost Number: 111 Registered: Sep-04 | Sheesh. For a throrough education, look back to Berny's links on the second post of this thread before flushing a bunch of money on overpriced magic cables. |
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Zap Unregistered guest | Oooo, I work for a big store. Please. Best Buy and Circuit City both p!mp Monster Cable products and it's a bunch of crap. Copper wire is copper wire. The biggest effect on sound for your speaker wires is guage. Thicker wires are better. Brand, who cares, as long as the trons can get from point A to point B easily. As long as your wire is thick enough, who cares if it's bent, there will still be plenty of connectivity. Monster Ultra is 60% better quality? Wow. How do they even measure that? "Hey, Gertrude! Get in here and check out Channel 5 News! Since I put those new Ultra's in, I swear this looks...at least 60% better!!" And with the super duper Monster power bar, that adds another 30% increase!? Wow, we're up to, what, almost 100% better sound already! Please, what a load of crap. It's amazing what marketing really does to people. I've got A/R cables, and let me tell you, the HD picture on my 50" looks pretty amazing, I can't imagine it look 90% better...I don't even know how it could look 90% better or any better for that matter!!! Power supply conditioner bar...??? For what? How bad is the wiring in your house that you need to monitor the fluctuations in the power?? Dirty power? Who comes up with this stuff? Sure, there maybe spurious "noise" in your powerlines, but can you SEE it on your TV?? NO! I have no static, video noise, what ever else you claim is on my TV. When I watch my TV and listen to my radio, it's crystal clear!! I mean, how much clearer can you possibly get? The "noise" that this magic power strip is removing...isn't noticeable to me (or ANYONE) in the first place!! But then again, when you spend $200 on a power strip, you WANT to see the difference. You WANT to believe that it wasn't all for nothing! Ha! Another sucker!!! As stated above, "in-box" cables, toss em. Most likely they are 18 ga. wires, no shielding, and crap. Get a good, inexpensive 14, 12 or even 10 ga. wire, and you'll be set. $30 vs $300 for the cable, and the only difference you'll notice, is how much thinner your wallet is. Oh, if your TV craps out, then Monster Cable will pay up to $150,000 for your stuff. Hmmm, seems to me my $25 A/R surge protector does the same thing? In fact, the one before that was a $19 Brand-X, that had a lifetime guarauntee as well for up to $25,000!! (And that's on my computer now!) I could hook up my computer, laptop, all my stereo stuff and my $3000 TV, and my 30" tube TV, every VCR/DVD player I own, including my alarm clock, electric toothbrush and your mothers vibr@tor and I STILL wouldn't have anywhere NEAR $150,000 worth of equipment plugged into it, let alone $25K!!! Really, just read the back of alot of the power protectors out there in the $20-$30 range, and they'll insure it as well, not just Monster. How much kickback are you getting everytime you shove a Monster Product down someone's throat? I saw a display at Circuit City a few days ago showing Video of "regular" cable on one side of the Split TV and video of "Monster Cable" on the other side with a sign saying, "Monster Cable does make a difference!". And in plain sight of everyone, MC was plugged into the Composite (RYB) part, and the regular stuff (that comes with your TV for free...the cheap-O RCA connectors Red, White (Audio) and Yellow (Video) was plugged in to the crappier RC input!! That's not even APPLES TO APPLES!!!! Show the truth!!! Composite A/R vs Composite Monster!!! Oooooo....you won't do that, eh? Why? Because if there WAS a difference, that it would be SO INFINITELY small, that the customer wouldn't be able to notice it?? You've really bought the Monster Cable Farm, EGO. You might be able to convince the naive folks who walk into your store, but to everyone else out there that KNOWS and has SEEN NO DIFFERENCE, well, you just look like a babbling retard reading Best Buy/Circuit City's sales pitch script. I laugh at you guys everytime you ask, "Can I help you with something?" and I just turn, smile and say, "No. No you really can't." I'm an Electrical Engineer...and I approve this message! |
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New member Username: PkhonaPost Number: 6 Registered: May-05 | All, I am about to buy cables myself. Just bought expensive sound system components from Boston Accoustics and Yamaha receiver. I was keenly reading this thread, here's how your electonics works : 1) For low frequency signals such as audio, your speaker cables act as simple L-R-C cicuit with more of R-C characteristics, R-C circuits in layman terms act as water tank. Imagine a tank with input pipe (your receiver) and output pipe (your speakers) somewhere at half way of tank. Till the tank is filled half way, nothing comes out of the output pipe. The time it takes for tank to fill half way are characteristics of its capacity (Hence capacitance "C") and thickness (resitance) of the input pipe. Wider the pipe, less resistance and hence tank fills up faster. Thicker cables have lesser resistance - one problem solved. What about the capacitance or the size of the tank, how do we reduce that so that water flows directly from input pipe to output pipe without waiting - read my second point. 2) Capacity of our fake tank can be reduced making tank smaller - simple. Similarly thicker wires have larger surface area and hence its capcitance is less. Capacitance is measure of charge store/unit area. If unit area is large, capacitance is less. Hence thick wires solve that problem. 3) What about shielding and long grain copper wires - what is the myth surrounding that. Well friends, there is no myth here. Lets continue our analogy of tank. Assume that there two such tanks placed side by side and that there is a leak in both tanks and that leak is fixed by placing a third pipe between the two tanks. Suddenly water from tank1 goes to tank2 and vice versa. In effect your capacity has increased, and it takes more time for tank to fill up. So what do you do, you build a tank such that its smaller, and has additional covering on its outside - called shield for cables. This shield is designed such that any extra water that falls on this tank, drains directly to the the drainage, hence you minimise the effect of other tank or inter channel coupling in electrical sense. So sheilding is good. What sort of shielding. Again it depends on the amount and material of our cover on your tank. Material which protects not only from one tank, but from many sources, material which has enough capacity to drain out water fast and material which prevents leaks in first place is what you want. So quality of shielding is extremely important. What if input pipe is broken at many places and you have joints everywhere, it will work but some water will seep thru the joints. That's where the material of copper helps, long grain copper is more continuous. 4) What about power supply noise - is it a myth - The answer is BIG NO. Most of electical noise comes from the power supply. This noise is low frequency and high frequency. We are not worried about noise beyond audible frequency, however low frequency noise is irritating. Typically it sounds as hiss or hum in your speakers. However based on quality of receiver, the power supply noise is rejected. Better quality receivers have excellent power supply noise rejection capabilities and hence you have no hum or hiss. So in conclusion, better quality cable definately helps electrically. Whether your ears pick the improvement - may be , may be not. Its a personal choice. Usually its nice to have a system with noises eliminated or minimised. -purvesh |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 178 Registered: Feb-05 | Good post Purvesh. I must however point out that shielding in a speaker wire is a myth. There are probably only a few manufacturers out there that actually have some type of shielding on a speaker wire. What actually constitutes shielding? For a wire or an interconnect cable to have a true shielding it must have a woven metallic mesh usually copper around the conductor. This is the only way to reject RFI and EMI interference. Speaker wire does not require shielding. there is only one brand of speaker wire on the market(Kimber cable) that I can think of that has anything remotely resembling a woven mettalic mesh. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3989 Registered: May-04 | Eric - I cannot remember seeing an audio interconnect or antenna cable with copper shielding. With the cost of copper vs. aluminum it would be prohibitive to use copper in this application. It is, to my knowledge, not the material but the type of coverage and the construction of the material which affects the amount of shielding the cable will have. Obviously the manufacturer cannot braid bubble gum and get a shield, but aluminum is a perfectly good material to use for shielding an audio cable. A wrapped shield is often used on less expensive or less critical cables and a fully braided shield on the best and most critical cables. When dealing with higher voltage, copper might be the preferred material; but normally the higher the voltage, the less need for shielding. Purvesh - Your analogy did not address inductance which will rise as capacitance falls and vice versa. One of the most difficult aspects in designing a good audio cable is to minimize both the L and C of a cable whether it be an interconnect or a speaker cable. When only one side of the L/C equation is addressed, the cable will still have serious flaws and could even be dangerous to some equipment. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 183 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes Jan that may well be so, but I was talking about speaker wire. None that I know has,except the Kimber,which is sort of a pseudo shielding. We both know that speaker wire does not need shielding but interconnects do. We have discussed this before. Of course most decent interconnect cables have a braided metallic shielding which as I stated the only way to reject RFI and EMI inteference. Some cables do in fact use a copper braid in conjunction with an aluminum mylar foil,such as my very own AR Pro 2 coaxial digital cable which I use to connect my DVD player to my receiver. See acoustic-research.com |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3997 Registered: May-04 | Thanks, Eric. I don't remember seeing that in a cable. It seems particularly unusual since AR sells lower priced cables. (I see on their website they are owned by Recoton. Recoton has had the reputation of selling subpar accessories. Apparently they are moving upscale.) I sent AR an email asking about the copper shielding. I'll let you know if I receive a response. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jorge59Rio de JaneiroBrasil Post Number: 17 Registered: May-05 | Anybody heard about 'van den hul' cables? Good reputation. Where to find in US? |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 186 Registered: Feb-05 | Jorge, sorry haven't heard of them. I will say though that the AR cable that I discussed above which only cost me$21 U.S.D. goes a long way in dispelling the myth that you have to pay big dollars for decent cables. It has two copper shields at 95% coverage which is excellent. This cable will perform as well as a cable that cost ten times as much which you would probably be paying for a more exotic outer covering such as Teflon and perhaps another layer of shielding which probably only one in conjunction with the aluminized mylar foil would be sufficient to reject stray interference in the first place. No thanks, I think I'll use the $180 I saved to put toward something in the future that really matters such as a speaker or equipment upgrade. |
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New member Username: PkhonaPost Number: 8 Registered: May-05 | Hi Eric, I totally agree on your shielding post. Thanks for bring inductance issue to the fore. Yes it does create an impedance which has great characteristic of distorting the signal (phase shift) and is in series... however for audio ranges, the reactance due to inductor is very less (2 x pi x F x L) provided the L has been kept low. Usually most manufacturers either twist the wires (if there are many strands ) which cancels out inductive reactance or , make use of material with lower coefficient of inductance and resistance. Regards, Purvesh |
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New member Username: PkhonaPost Number: 9 Registered: May-05 | I mean I agree with Jan on shielding ..... sorry for the confusion. Jan can you post the reply on copper shielding question that you posed to AR, whenever you get it. -purvesh |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 124 Registered: Dec-04 | Jorge, Van den hul list |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 191 Registered: Feb-05 | Copper shielding is quite common these days in many cables, inexpensive as well expensive. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 192 Registered: Feb-05 | I also agree with you Diablo, "special" powercords are BS. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4036 Registered: May-04 | Eric and diablo - Have you experimented with power cables to come to your conclusion? Or is this another "everything I learned says it shouldn't work" decision? A shop that sells aftermarket power cables will have loaner items to listen to. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 193 Registered: Feb-05 | No Jan I know enough from my electronics training that a fused power supply will only allow a finite amount of current whether this is coming through 2 conductor 18AWG or a powercord the size of your arm. There is nothing magical or any improvement to be had from a ridicously overpriced snake oil hype powercord. Don't waste your money, instead spend it on things that really matter such as equipment or speakers. That is my position. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4037 Registered: May-04 | And you are welcome to it, Eric. But if you read the lierature from the power cable manufacturers, they are not talking about how much more current their cables can deliver on a constant or even peak basis. Possibly what they are discussing is more esoteric than mere current, but to reduce the concept to mere current is once again not seeing the trees for the forest. I can only take your answer to mean you have not tried any power cables to discern with your own equipment and your own ears whether there could be an improvement. You seem to be willing to take other items on faith if they were told to you by a teacher (RF theory for example); yet you seem to reject other items that were not mentioned in the text book. Here's something from a post on this thread from March 14 that I believe you agreed with: "Having been in the Consumer Electronics manufacturing business, experience confirms that manufacturers include the cheapest accessories for their components. Their reasoning is not limited to supplying the minimum number of items to get an item working. Market pressures preclude including cables or other accessories that might move the anticipated street price of an item above the catagory average. Just check out the batteries that come with remote controls!" Now, why doesn't that apply to power cables also? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 390 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, you know you never can tell whether something "really" makes a difference or not till you really do get it home and try it on your own setup. I read all kinds of negative things about the monster power centers and how they are a waste of money and how the stage 2 filtering doesn't do anything, but I swear to you that when I hooked this thing up for the first time, my picture on dvd and hi-def was clearer. Not to mention the subwoofer had more umph and my bookshelves seem to have more depth and midrange. So I am a true believer that you can never put all your faith into reviews and opinions, see and hear it for yourself. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 194 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually, I have seen a couple of them demonstrated but could not descearn a diffrence between them and the OEM cord,neither could other folks in the store. Unless the cord has some type of AC smoothing circuitry, with capacitors built in what kind of benefit will one of these cords offer other than exotic materials and hype? The power supply in equipment does not care what kind of cord provides the AC current that it needs as long as it receives a sufficient amount of voltage which is required whether the cord is small guage wire or very large. As I said the current is a preset limit so increasing the guage of wire will have no effect whatsoever. We are here to discuss audio so I don't care to get into the behavioral psychology about how people arrive at and make decisions. Often times in life you must trust the experts, If the local news told you a tornado was coming even though there was barely a breeze blowing outside would you do the sensible thing and take shelter or would you wait it out to "see for yourself" Power cords and interconnect cables do not need a "burn in" period, nor do power cords offer an audible advantage. This has been ridiculed and disected and discounted time and time again by the engineering and scientific community. I have my views and I know you have yours, Let's leave it at that. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4038 Registered: May-04 | That's fine with me. Until you experience something yourself it is often difficult to even want to understand why something happens. This is especially true when it goes against set beliefs. But for every instance where someone posts that this or that can't possibly occur, there is another post which claims the opposite is true. When two opinions are so diametrically separated, there must be a middle ground somewhere. I have no bones to pick with anyone who chooses not to spend money on this accessory or that amplifier because they feel there can be no improvement. But I sit here somewhat amused and somewhat aggravated at those people who make no attempt to try something before they condemn it to being BS; or even look further into the concepts of why something might happen than their own petrified beliefs allow. As Henry Kloss used to say, "It ain't research if you already know the answer." In this case that amounts to, "you ain't gonna hear it unless you try it with an open mind." The other part of my frustration is the anger and vehemence that is often expressed by those who don't have the ability to make a clear decision and instead condemn the idea out of hand - or out of ignorance or envy. Clearly a $400 power cable is not intended to replace the power cord on a $500 receiver. If someone told me they spent 20% of their budget on a power cable, I would consider their priorities quite skewed. However, there are people with more exotic equipment and they are the intended market for that $400 power cable. If your power amplifiers alone cost several thousand dollars (or more), then I would assume you have equipment that might be more sensitive to the nuances of system set up than that $500 receiver wiil be. And I believe that system owner is the market for the replacement cable. I'm not knocking a $500 receiver or suggesting anyone has to buy more expensive equipment to change a power cable or hear decent sound quality. Just realize there are people who do spend larger sums of money to get a higher level of performance and they can justify the response they hear. The attitude on the forum is many times that of the person who has never driven anything more sophisticated than a stock Civic EX around the streets of downtown telling the fuel dragster driver what tires to use. The Civic is a great little car that offers lots of performance for the dollar spent, but it doesn't perform like a vehicle that costs many times its price. Your HK receiver is a great product dollar for dollar, but it is not the last word in sound quality. I assume you agree with that statement. I'm not here to defend or promote anything and I assume everyone can make up their own mind how their money should be allocated. It just seems ridiculous to me to read the attitude some folks have toward a high end product they have no experience with and will not even attempt to hear. In this hobby we are dealing with perception. It is impossible to have anything that resembles perception when discussing something you have not experienced. What is in the textbooks has been proven wrong before. I believe we are given the opportunity to learn something new every day. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 195 Registered: Feb-05 | Mr.Vigne, once again your argument seems to migrate towards a personal level. This is all too typical of your argument strategy, if you can't prove someone wrong in a technical and constructive manner, move the argument to a personal level to come out on top. My system is irrelavant in this case but no, I won't debate with you that a $500 receiver is hardly the last word in audio,not even close, and I never stated such. An amplifier that costs thousands of dollars still will operate on the same principles as an amp or receiver that is inexpensive. It will contain the same type of electronic devices as cheaper equipment,although they will be of higher quality, but nonetheless they will operate in the same manner. So I think your point that an expensive amp will be much more sensitive to the AC input side of the equation really doesn't hold water. In fact I maintain quite the opposite, as an expensive amp will do a better job of regulating it's AC input power through a higher quality transformer and other parts. Textbooks are rarely proven wrong and the rules and laws that govern electrical power are well established and proven beyond a shadow of doubt at this stage of the science. Yes I agree with you their is a great deal of perception in audio particulary in the heard presentation of a loudspeaker, however in the operation of an amplifier or the transfer of electrons through a wire this is well documented and understood. Speakers are a very "gray" area but the operational principles of an amplifier or the function of an interconnect cable is all "black and white". IF you can prove to me in a technical and scientific manner how an expensive power cord is worlds beyond in performance than the supplied cord from the manufacturer and what practical purpose a power cord serves other than the transfer of AC current from a wall outlet to the power supply of a component I would be willing to consider your point. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4042 Registered: May-04 | Eric, you're being far too sensitive to my comments about a $500 receiver. You are missing the point to find the insult. I know you own a HK receiver (it's listed in your forum bio, at least); that is the only reason I brought that specific product into the discussion. It is rather difficult to change out a captive cable such as the unit on your receiver. If you had a piece of equipment that easily allowed this sort of change, I would have suggested you borrow a cable to hear for yourself at your leisure (not in a showroom) whether you heard an improvement. I would suggest a simple experiment. Spend about $15 to buy a hospital grade Hubbell AC receptacle and install this on the circuit your system plugs into. If the system improves slightly, it will be a cheap upgrade. If the system doesn't change, you've not wasted much money trying something new. You and I see things differently. (Quite honestly, I've been told I see things in a way not many others want to see.) The difference between our views comes partially from you having an associates degree in electronics and I have my degrees in the Arts. Over the past 35-40 years I have found quite a few people who are "technically" inclined to have a mind set of what they learned in books is what they need to know. Over that same time I have found most people who have a creative outlook are not that interested in what they have learned so much as what is left to learn. Surely there are exceptions to this generalization with scientists who prefer research and Theater professors who dwell in the 17th c/. But largely this has been my observation of how people organize their thoughts and beliefs. This isn't meant to slander or glorify either type; it is merely my observation. The world requires both types. So, please, don't find an insult in this. My points in the above post were simple. You're not likely to find something you're not looking for; or, at least, it will be easy to let it pass by without notice. And those who have not experienced something cannot truthfully say it doesn't exist; only that they have not experienced that particular thing. And finally, riding a bus doesn't mean you know how to get a rocket to the moon. All too often on the forum I get the feeling those who wish to assign a topic to the BS pile have the impression that a tweak will automatically mean a change in the perceived frequency response of their system. Or that audiophile qualities of soundstaging and imaging will make dramatic transformations. When in truth that is often not what will occur when things as simple as an AC cable is replaced. The "jaw-dropping" improvements of the magazine and internet reviewers is largely a fiction to sell subscriptions. I have been astounded by many things in audio over the past decades, but for the most part the improvements have been small and by some measures only important in the scheme of the larger system quality. Everyone listens for these qualities in different degrees; some listeners pay little attention to what another person will prize. Improvements one listener feels are important go unnoticed by the next person in the queue. The bottom line is if you try the AC receptacle, listen with an open mind. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 196 Registered: Feb-05 | Fair enough Jan, no hard feelings. Yes my receiver does have a fixed powercord. The Hubbel AC outlet you refer to is a 20A receptacle used primararily in hospitals and labaratories is fully acceptable with NEC code for home use and ideal for use with large current hungry amplifiers which can draw in excess of 15A that the standard receptacle can provide. I am willing to try it although my equipment is already connected to a Panamax surge protector/power conditioner, which provides satifactory performance. Powercords and other extravagantly overpriced tweaks remind me of the medical quackery of a century ago, "never mind the science or lack theof behind it just hand us your money and you'll feel a whole lot better". I find this same type reasoning or rejection "nevermind the scientific rationale" to be disturbing and quite frankly insulting to someone like me or you who has somewhat of an understanding of electricity and electronics. Anyway thats my take on the situation. Happy listening! |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 125 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, No, I've never tried any 'special' power cords. I'm not convinced they offer any real benefits. I have a 30 foot run of solid copper wire connecting my main power distribution unit to the sockets into which I plug my sound equipment. I know this because I installed it myself. The connections from the high quality sockets is by substantial three core mains cable - the sort of cable I could use to run a hedge trimmer - probably capable of delivering at least four times the max power required by a demanding amplifier easily. The only advantage of the special cables which I can see as possibly genuine, is to have the wires twisted in such a way as to cancel external interference. If that was really important, then I suspect that quality manufacturers would supply these with their kit. Would probably cost about $1 extra with power cables made in China. The special cables, of course, tend to use copper which has been coated with silver. Why?? Nordost make this a big selling point. It apparently makes a difference to the speed which the electric current can pass through the cable. Their cheap power cable (£220), apparently passes current at 80% of the speed of light. But their most expensive, the Valhalla (£1775) gets up to 90% speed of light. Now that may be impressive if you are very gullible, but is completely irrelevant. As long as the the power gets converted to smooth DC voltages, it makes no difference how fast it got there! Indeed, the power has probably traveled for 99.9% of its journey to your home at a mere 50% of the speed of light. You mention that there is usually no great improvement in frequency response. That is unsurprising. The thing which most puts me off even trying these cables are the reviews which claim 'massive bass ', 'increased and smoother treble' and other such nonsense. Unless ABX testing (which I know you distrust), can convince me that there is some advantage, see Example ABX test, then I won't bother with such 'marketing breakthroughs'. I don't have any objection if people want to buy these cables. They will sell in big numbers to the likes of Elton John, who spends £50,000 on cut flowers every month. It is useful to point out to ppeople that getting the right amp and speakers is the most important thing and that fripperies like this will make no audible difference to the system. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4057 Registered: May-04 | Ahhh, I had such a reply for you two. Eloquent, effusive and effective. You would have not only bought power cables - you would have started making them yourself. And it disappeared in an Intel hiccup. Twice!!! Only to be left with "page cannot be displayed". Let me see if I can recapture those remarks into a post my DSL line wants to pass on to you. ******************************** At least we are away from the lunatics who populate the "Receivers" and "Speakers" portion of the "Home Audio" section of the forum. If we keep this quietly to ourselves this should not devolve into a name calling match. From the link to ABX testing: "As far as I was concerned, a bulletproof technical explanation was not absolutely necessary. The proof was in the hearing." For me the main problem with this article is not the ABX methodolgy (though the possible problems with the test are well documented in the artice), but that the last page has been torn out. I would like to know whether the writer, after going through the experience of a 50/50 ABX test, still chose to keep his Nordost power cables since he had already heard the improvement or whether he chose to chunk them in the garbage. Did the fact that not everyone else heard the improvement change his opinion of the cables? Or did he still think the cables an improvement after everyone else left? Other than my amusement and occasional frustration with the members of the forum and their attitudes toward cables and tweaks, I have no real dog in this fight. It matters not to me whether anyone chooses to buy this or that. I am not here to convince anyone they must have $400 power cables. Only that you should not condemn something you have not tried. I have bought and sold many, many tweaks over the years. I have sometimes been quite happy and ocasionally I have returned the product. I have had the same general response from my clients. Some heard nothing I had promised while others thanked me for the recommendation. In all cases my only request was to try the item with an open mind. Those who post on the forum are naturally similar to the clients I had over the years. Some bought their equipment and put it in their room so that it fit and didn't look unattractive. Others bought their gear and simply placed it in their rooms and hoped for the best. Still others paid attention to the details of set up and were generally rewarded for their efforts. Then there were those who obsessed over every tiny detail to the exclusion of the music. Not everyone will benefit from any one tweak. That seems to be a common misconception among those who read of the "awesome" results obtained by a reviewer who had the good fortune to have the manufacturer and their rep stop by to set up the equipment to show it at its best. Mainly I found this variance in experience due to the fact everyone listens for different aspects of sound quality and what is important to one listener may not have the slightest benefit to the next person in the queue. Even when I knew the client fairly well I could not always guess their reaction to any sort of tweak. So naturally I just asked that they try the item before they made up their mind. I cannot defend the marketing that is used to sell products. I am looking at a bottle of "Natural Spring Water". Well, of course it is! Should I look instead for the bottle that states "Chemically Pure Water"? Or possibly look for the label which boldly proclaims "The Arsenic, Mercury and Lead in this Water are all Naturally Occurring". How much proof do I require before I can try a bottle of water? Diablo, you've said, "I've never tried any 'special' power cords. I'm not convinced they offer any real benefits." How much convincing do you require? And where will you find that proof? In an article that seeks to dispell the idea of power cables? What about the article that claimed there was a benefit? You've taken care to run good cables up to the AC receptacle but not beyond. What made you stop? The idea that there is enough voltage and current at the outlet? That nothing beyond that point could matter? How can you be so certain? Might I suggest that reducing the function of a power cable to merely having the potential to deliver voltage and current might be missing some other issue that a power cable might also accomplish. What might a cable do that another can't? I'm not sure. There are claims that the manufacturers did this or that to make the cable respond in this or that fashion. As with other cables, each manufacturer will have their own story. There is no way I can refute or support each one. Some make sense to me and some don't. But, I cannot condemn the entire lot because of one claim. I know from experience I always have something new to learn; and experience tells me I can most often find that something when I am actively looking to learn something new. If I hear of a new restaurant, or theatre or what have you, I will try to find someone who has already had some experience with what I'm considering. If I ask ten people and get five in favor and five against, while statisically not relevant, I'll probably try something new. I'll do that because out of ten people there were five who were in favor. From the other five negative responses I can't simply say I should dismiss those five in favor. I may not like what I find, but until I try something I can't know for certain. Thinking about the "quack" science that was around 100 years ago (and is still around) I find myself thinking about Kellog and his admonition to eat whole grains, drink clean water, breathe fresh air and get regular exercise. Then I think about how the science and technology of the past 100 years has taken out the fiber and nutrition in our foods and poisoned our water and air and made a population of overweight, inert and disease ridden individuals who rely on science and technology to cure their ills. I eat and grow organically whenever possible. Not because science tells me it's better - which it won't - but due to my experience and preference. I take supplements that science has not proven to be effective. Not because science tells me I should - which it won't - but due to my own experience. Do I realize taking supplements is not a substitute for good food in the first place? Of course. But, do I believe everything that comes my way is "good food"? My experience tells me no, it is not. I exercise because I feel better by my own experience, not because science tells me to do so. Do I need to step in front of a moving truck to know if it will hurt? No. Common sense prevails on occasion. Not everything I know came from a book. My experience on the sales floor tells me everyone is different. How any one person decides what they will buy is a bit different from person to person and instance to instance. There were those peole who told me they were interested in this item and left with another. There were those who said this was important when it was that which made the deal. And there were those who never varied from their original intent. But, in almost every case the decision was made after they had tried something out and convinced themself they found this or that to be beneficial. That is the bottom line. Until you try something, how can you judge what the results will be? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 405 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan , all I have to say is that all joking aside about everyone "wanting" you, you not only know your stuff about a/v but you also have quite a bit of knowledge and have artifice in presenting it. I read all your posts and really enjoy what I read. I may not always agree with you, but that probably is because of a little bullheadedness (is that a word?) on my part and also my own experiences. I am not typing this to feed that already massive gargantuan head of yours, but to just give thanks to someone who takes his time and cares about what he shares with others. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 197 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks for the reply Jan Well done! Yes this website has been slow and inacessable as of late for me as well, must be the server since I have broadband which is usually very quick. Anyway I would like to thank you. You have convinced me to look past the scientific and keep and open mind. Would the Tice clock you mentioned on another thread qualify as a form of "audio quackery"?I really have nothing against someone who wants to drop $500 on a powercord either,this is America where you spend your money as you like. I just get angry sometimes when these manufacturers of esoteric tweako products make wild outrageous claims that go against the established principles of electricity and science. This makes it seem to me that they are out to take advantage of those who are less informed. Any way I wish you well in your audio pursuits and I'm sure we will converse again with a renewed level of respect and interest. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4058 Registered: May-04 | Eric - I worked at a Tice dealer at the time the clock came on the market. I never personally sold one or tried one. No matter the effect it was too rich for my wallet at the time. I do know Tice sold every unit they could produce and at a resonable profit. I don't remember any coming back. Is that quackery? I don't know. It would be interesting to know how many clocks are still in use. Sam Tellig in Stereophile just mentioned the clock in a recent column. j.c. - Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 127 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, I am not totally opposed to the idea that a well-designed power cord can make a minor difference. I mentioned the noise cancellation effect previously, but I had overlooked another factor -- the effect that the cable can have on nearby signal cables (cue Homer Simpson sound effect here - "Dohh!!") . Shielding the mains voltage makes some sense in this respect. I may even make up some DIY cables -- possibly along "As a youngster, I was a Hi-Fi nut -- building all my own equipment. On one occasion I had built what I considered to be the ultimate preamp and decided to give it an A/B test. [Alternating between the two modes being examined.] It was absolutely amazing -- as I switched back and forth between my old and new preamps I was astounded at the beauty and clarity of the new unit's sound. Imagine my chagrin and embarrassment when I discovered that I had incorrectly wired the A/B switch. It was doing absolutely nothing!" So if I did borrow an expensive power cable to try out, I'm not sure i I could trust my own judgement. Judging speakers by listening is fairly easy. Amplifiers slightly less so. Cables are a very difficult. The point of the comment in my original post was that the companies who use bogus claims and charge high prices for mains cables, probably have a marketing led policy - "We need unique selling points for our mains cables!" demands the CEO. The humble engineer has to incorporate them, regardless of their technical merit. The same thing probably applies to interconnects and speaker cable. There may have been cable companies who were in the business purely for the love of audio, and produced good cables at a moderate price. If there were, then they have probably been out-hyped and subsequently out-of-business.  Regards, diablo |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4062 Registered: May-04 | The history of consumer audio is littered with the dead products of brilliant engineers and ardent music lovers who, in the end, were lousy business managers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4063 Registered: May-04 | Then there are stories such as this: http://www.dayton-wright.com/DaytonWright.html Dayton Wright was a promising company in the 1970's and for about a decade after that. Their SPS pre amp was the first piece of real high end equipment I ever owned when I started in 1976 to replace my HK receiver. (A HK Citation 12 Deluxe soon followed and the HK receiver was assigned to back room duty. The receiver and the Citation amp are still going strong to this day. The Dayton Wright was sold to a friend who, as far as I know, still uses it on a daily basis.) You might want to scroll down to "The Difficult Years". By this point everything that you could imagine going wronng had happened and then some. The company, the designs and the patents had all been stolen from Wright and he had been forced to leave all his papers and designs in his old office. He was left with the debt. The story of Dayton Wright is probably the saddest story I know from recent audio history. It is a story which gets repeated, in somewhat less lurid detail, over and over when small audio companies try to break through the hype of the audio market place. I will not disagree the hifi world is full of BS. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4064 Registered: May-04 | diablo - The DIY cable you linked to looks like it should do well as an introduction to power cables. I've seen several DIY power cables and can see little reason why they shouldn't offer many of the same virtues as some of the more expensive cables sold in the after market. I was a bit suprised when I looked at Kimber's selling points for their power cables; "Kimber PK14 is a 14 AWG high current cord with special copper optimized for 120 volt AC wall voltage." I would take that statement as wading into the shallow end of the slurry. From what I have seen, unless you feel there is a need for exotic materials which are better at moving AC wall voltage and current from point A to point B, the main qualities I would look for in a power cable are: 1) Shielding - Though power cables are thought to not need shielding, the world has gotten very dirty with RF in the past two decades. If nothing else the shielding should keep the radiated noise from the cable out of the other signal cables in a typical consumer audio system. If it keeps any noise from getting into the power supplies, that is a good thing. 2) Excellent connectors - As with the hospital grade receptacles, the point is to make secure contact over the entire surface of the pins and fingers. Just as the larger gauge of a cable will allow more current to flow, the better connections at the receptacle and the equipment end should lower the overall impedance of the circuit. Lowering the impedance means the ability to deliver the voltage and current has the potential to happen faster when peaks of current are required. The fact these connectors tend to oxidize very slowly is another plus. Obviously the gauge and dielectric are considerations. But the materials for a decent power cable upgrade can be purchased over the counter. Though it might take a bit of twiddling to decide whether to connect the shield at both ends, this seems like an excellent start on an upgrade for only a few dollars. As I put my system back together in the back room I think I'll give the DIY route a try since I need some longer extensions on my power amp cables. Thanks for the link; I'll add it to the others I've been looking at. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4066 Registered: May-04 | To the issue of Gullibility: Every time I come across an article such as the ABX test diablo linked to, the effort of the work would appear to be a dismissal of what someone else has "perceived" to be an improvement. Most often this hinges on does the more expensive product actually sound better in an ABX test. In other words; are we just fooling ourselves because we want to believe the hype that goes along with the new toy? Are we hearing something that's not there because we want to believe the more expensive the product the better it will sound? While I have my own issues with ABX testing and anything which strives to prove a negative, I have a separate but related issue that you folks might be able to assist me with. Regarding the matter of power cables (sort of) and a question that doesn't seem to fit the answer: Some background first; if you are unfamiliar with this article from The Absolute Sound, please give it a once over. This is frequently used by anyone wishing to prove conclusively that gauge is all that really matters in cables. In this survey a Home Depot extension cord came out reasonably well against exotic speaker cables. The HD cable runs well under $1 per foot while some of the more exotic designs pushed upwards toward $120 per foot. Since my home theater system is a second or even third choice when it comes to listening to music I had stuck some mid-priced Kimber Kable on the three front speakers. (I had tried some cable that Ray Kimber had sent me years ago for evaluation which eventually became the Kimber 4TC but it was too bright in this system. The mid-priced Kimber or low end AudioQuest have been default cables for me for years.) The Kimber was too short and needed to be replaced so this article's conclusion sounded like a cheap way to get to decent sound. I had an extension cord laying in the work room that had been around for years so that was the first plan. The PVC dielectric was in good shape other than being a bit dirty so I took the connectors off both ends and cut the cable in half. The cable was stripped and prepared to get clean copper to the bare wire connections I use on my systems. With everything in place - it sounded horrible. The sound had a substantial glare and the music seemed out of time with itself. No cable I can remember using in the past twenty years had sounded this bad. I gave the cable three days to let myself adjust to any false beliefs I might have regarding inexpensive cables. The sound never improved; every time I listened to TV I couldn't listen for long without a sense of fatigue. The Kimber went back on and the sound was quite good once again. It was time to spend $15 so off to HD I went to pick up an extension cord. I cut and stripped the cable as I had the previous extension cord. Once in place I didn't have high expectations for this experience. Thankfully the HD cable is essentially what the article states. It is smooth with no obvious defects in sound quality. Timing was as almost good as the Kimber. Though not as lively as the Kimber the HD cable was more than good enough for the HT system. Since then I've repeated the swap on other systems and found the same results. For a long run of cable to extension speakers, where applicable, the HD cable is more than sufficient and substantially cheaper than almost any other quality cable I can find. The other extension cord has worked its way into another system and came back out fast. So I see a situation where I had an opportunity to spend no money (a good thing in my book) and get the results I wanted but the cable was very unsatisfactory. I have a somewhat similar situation with interconnects and speaker cables in my stock of extras that are more expensive cables than what I use and which were well regarded in the press but I do not prefer their sound. Here's the question; should we assume I was so shallow or gullible as to be influenced by The Absolute Sound's recommendation of the $15 Home Depot brand of extension cord over the unlabeled extension cord I already had? If that's the case and I am susceptible to the whims of the audiophile press, why do I not prefer the more expensive audiophile approved cables that are spares in my closet? I have no doubt that our prejudices infect our buying choices. But every article I have read trying to dispell audio myths has sought to prove the more expensive product or the "approved" product is what we have been fooled with. Has anyone seen an article where the intent was to prove someone would prefer the less expensive, unknown product rather than the more expensive product? Not just not hear an improvement using the higher priced product but actually prefer the lower priced equipment. Has there been such an article to prove cheapskates can get fooled also? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 418 Registered: Mar-05 | Help me understand the home depot cable thing, are you saying that a standard (orange or simular) extension cord for 110 power is a lesser but acceptable substitute for "speaker wires"? That being the case, the 12 ga monster cable I currently have (yeah I know I got ripped) would be a slight bit better than the hd cable, same as the cable or a little worse than the hd cable? In your opinion of course. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4071 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, I don't know. It's been years since I've heard good ol' Monster in any system. I would guess the two cables would be mostly similar. Both use good quality copper in a very basic lay out. The Monster is two conductor and the HD is a three conductor cable. That could affect the cable's performance slightly. The Monster is probably a parallel run configuration while the HD is twisted. That will slightly affect the inductance and capacitance between the Monster and the HD. How much these parameters affect the sound quality is a matter of discussion and how they fit into the circuit of your amp and speakers. Depending on your length requirements, the HD cable will cost about $15 to try. As I said it is a good basic cable; it has a smooth sound that does not draw attention to itself. That is one of the best compliments you can pay any component and particularly a budget product. Sins of omission are much easier to live with than sins of commission. The HD cable lacks the last bit of transparency of other cables I have tried and has slightly less life than the cables I am using in my main system. Its overall effect is almost as if the performer could benefit from another few days of rehearsal to get the dynamics and guts of the performance worked out. It is neither bright nor dark being slightly shaded if anything. When playing solo piano it makes a very convincing presentation. That says a lot for the cable's quality. You may not hear the performer's breaths but you will get the performance. The HD cable has already been modified by listeners to attempt to get just a bit more performance from the application of some basic principles. If you are going to try the HD cable, buy a simple 16 AWG cable. It will have three conductors - white, black and green. Decide how you want to run the cable. Either as a two wire system ignoring one conductor, or as a three conductor with two legs as the + and one as the - side. If you prefer the sound of the HD over the Monster, you can then jazz it up a bit by buying another 16 AWG cable and twisting the two cables together in a twisted pair configuration. This then uses one cable's conductors for + and the other cables conductors for the -. This twisted configuration will minimize inductance and only slightly increase capacitance while dropping resistance slightly. Buy some heat shrink tubing to use as a means of securing the cable in the twisted configuration. When twisting the two cables you sould have about one twist per each foot to 18". Place a piece of shrink wrap at this one foot mark and secure the twist by heating the shrink wrap. You can also run the two cables as a side by side parallel configuration. This will increase inductance slightly and decrease capacitance while still lowering resistance. If you can space the two cables apart by some distance (3") and run them as parallel cables you can further decrease the inductance. This space has to be maintained through the length of the cable run until it reaches the connection points. Those with the ability to accept very large gauge cables have braided three (or more) cables together to get the RF rejection ala Kimber. Even if you can't use the entire set of conductors, you can use one or two legs from each cable to make the connection and still get the RF benefits. But keep in mind - now we're talking spending upwards of $45-50. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 198 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes that is correct Joseph. I am famillar with the article that Jan cited as a read about the same thing on the Audioholics website. At my local Lowes and Home Depot they carry these "heavy duty" extension powercords. They are 2 or 3 conductor 10AWG. They are quite thick and very beefy. I think I saw a 50' length for about $80 with plugs attached. They will work quite well as Jan pointed out. You did not get "ripped off" by your purchase of the Monster Cable. I have the same guage Monster in Navaho white which I use on my front right,left and center channel speakers. I really don't understand the whining and complaining about the price of Monster cable and speaker wire which seems to be widespread on this forum. For the record Monster cable and similar brands such as Acoustic Research which I also use are INEXPENSIVE cables. These IMO are good recommendations for people like myself who don't necessarily have an highend "audiophile" system, who want decent quality shielded cable without paying an arm and a leg for. The cables and speaker wire that Jan refered to in the article such as Kimber, Cardas and another brand Nordost which I don't believe was in the test but these are expensive cables and wire. Thirty dollars for a Monster interconnect cable is very little money as compared to hundreds for brands like Nordost and perhaps thousands for the Cardas.I think Monsters most expensive speaker wire will only run about $2.50/ft, this pales in comparison to some brands that run $20,50, even $100/ft. On a system such as mine with an inexpensive but decent receiver and cd player with inexpensive speakers such "boutique" type speaker wire and cabeling is not worth the considerable expense because the system has a limited fidelity. I would be opened minded enough consider these expensive brands if I had an expensive amp and expensive speakers which would perhaps justify such an expense. Jan: I have a question for you. As of late I have been considering a two channel music only system. Believe it or not I am seriously contemplating either a 70's model HarmanKardon 2 channel ss receiver one of the "dual powered" models for sale on Ebay or (gasp) a tube amp. I know well how tube amps work but I don't have the brand familiarity and experience that you have. I know you loathe this type of question but what is a decent tube amp I might purchase used of course, for about $500 or less? Also what's your take on these HK's with twin power supplies-two transformers, one for each channel? Also I have seen very clean "hot rodded" versions of the same on Ebay also. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4073 Registered: May-04 | Yes, I prefer not to give recommendations because there are too many variables to consider before saying "buy this". Let's address the HK's first. Everything I think should happen in the basic operation of a solid state amplifier is accomplished in the twin powered HK designs. And it is done very well and quite elegantly to boot. Wide power bandwidth, square wave response, high current with no limiting, essentially a dual mono design from the power cord forward - what's not to like? I never worked in a store where we sold HK receivers of that period that didn't have everyone thinking they were the best sounding receivers we sold. The Citation 12 power amplifier from the same period was the first solid state Citation amp and it included all the items I just listed. Coming from the Stewart Hegeman designed tube Citation products, the 12 had a slightly different sound that the later Citation 16. The 16 was gutsy and could drive virtually any speaker to very loud levels; whereas the 12 had guts but didn't wear them on its sleeve. Either of these amps would be good places to begin. The 12 has been modified by Nelson Pass to accept a MOSFET output stage. http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/pressive_e.html Pasive pre amps aren't for every system as they can present some drawbacks that make them not the ideal choice if your components aren't up to the task or your requirements are not going to fit the passive system. But if things work well, the passive pre amp can give startlingly good sound for very few dollars. Transformer and autoformer based passives have been the push lately, but they run more money and should, IMO, be used only after you've experimented with a simple passive. There are plenty of good choices in solid state or tubes on the used market. There really isn't much I can say about your choices in general. For the most part when I recommend a beginning point in this market, especially tubes, I suggest you stay with a product that can be serviced with a fair amount of ease. That leaves out a large portion of good sounding product but avoids you owning a once good sounding amplifier that is now a large paper weight. Suprisingly the ability to get some 40 year old amplifiers serviced is not that difficult. The quintessential tube amplifier for "My First Tube" is the Dynaco Stereo 70. The first Ultralinear design, it is the most popular tube amplifier ever sold and has had too many modification possibilities to begin to mention. It does some things less than terrifically but it does so many things extremely well that if you hear this amp and don't like it you should not buy tubes. The ST70 and the Dynaco PAS pre amps are the place where many people have started in high end audio over the last 40 years. Both amp and pre amps have gone up somewhat in price since I sold my last few pairs, but the market is still decent and you can almost always be assured of getting back what you pay. That is the benefit of used gear, while it may appreciate or depreciate somehwat over a five year span, it will almost always be worth what you have paid. My attitude has been that the essence of music has not changed in the last 50 years; if you find a used piece that was regarded as being "musical" you should have a component that can hold up to comparison to many of today's products at a minimal cost. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/ST70mods.htm http://www.curcioaudio.com/cust_3.htm I would suggest you begin doing some reading concerning tubes here: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/119397.html This is the thread Rick Barnes started when he wanted to get involved with tubes. There's a reasonable amount of information to absorb. I had talked to Kegger about tubes and sold him some of my old stuff so there are two people with experience concerning tubes on this thread. As you will see others have joined the parade since this thread began. Rick and Ghia had also purchased some used McIntosh solid state integrated amplifiers last summer after having me mention how much I enjoyed my Mac gear. I think Rick found a MA6100 for around $500 and Ghia got a MA6200 for about $700. Both immediately fell in love with the Mac sound and ended up disassembling their HT systems to concentrate on Mac two channel. Both discuss their later tube amplifier purchases on this thread. That's about the best I can do, Eric. Beyond that I need to know a lot more about your system and what is important to you. And I still hesitate to make suggestions. If you would prefer to try your hand at DIY tubes there are plenty of kits to try. Take a look here: http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/ If you think you want to know more about tubes let me know and I'll give you some information beyond this to scan. You can also contact Kegger. He has accumulated a large quantity of tube gear and may be in a position to let some go. As you will see on the "Tube Talk" thread, Kegger has really gotten into tubes in a big way and has had fun with tube rolling. I did that all twenty five years ago and find it now somewhat expensive to have the tube flavor of the month from the NOS crowd. None the less it should make interesting reading. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 199 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks a bunch for the info Jan!!! I might well go with one of the HK's I saw a modified '72 model and it was sweet and very clean. One more question and I promise I'll leave you alone. I often heard that the Russian tubes are the best and to definately avoid the Chinese made ones, Is this true? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4075 Registered: May-04 | Not any longer. After the last American tube maker (Richardson) closed their doors the tube market went to the Russians since they still needed to manufacture tubes for their military uses. The Chinese began marketing their tubes mostly after buying up the old machinery from the American and British manufacturers. As with most things now days, the Chinese had a very steep learning curve. The early Chinese tubes I tried in the early '90's were pretty bad; they lasted one evening in my amps before they were exchanged for some Russian tubes. A few years later I came across the Golden Dragon brand from China. This was a tube company that was owned by former Gold Aero employees from England who decided to revive the tube designs by having them made on the old Gold Aero machines now in China. By comparison to some NOS Gold Aeros I had used from the 1960's these new Golden Dragon tubes were the best tubes I had used. "Golden" fit their description quite nicely. They were not, however, the most reliable tubes I've ever had. The Golden Dragon tubes have now been replaced on the market by the Shuguang tubes from the same factory and the same designs. Last time I replaced tubes I decided to go with Svetlana's from the St. Petersburg factory. I am very happy with this set of tubes as they tend to remind me of the more classic Sylvania's and RCA's. The tube market has expanded lately and the amount of good tubes has increased once again. I've heard good reports concerning Chinese tubes and reports the Russian tubes are being bought by a conglomerate that is wiping out some of the advantages of the various Russian companies. Overall it really boils down to what is the best tube for a particular model of tube. Who makes the best 12AX7 may not make the best EL34. And even though they are interchangeable tubes the company that makes the best 6L6GC may not make the best KT66. The hottest market is still the NOS (new old stock) tubes from the heyday of American and British tubes. The prices are very steep in some cases and they have become investments for some people. You can read about NOS on the "Tube Talk" thread. http://www.tubedepot.com/6l6reviews.html http://www.tubedepot.com/el84reviews.html http://www.vintagetubeservices.com/ http://www.vacuumtube.com/tubes.htm http://www.ken-gilbert.com/techstuff/vtf.html http://www.tubedata.info/ http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm http://intra.engr.uark.edu/~lar/fireamps.html |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 200 Registered: Feb-05 | Thank you so much once again!!! Maybe I'll visit you and the other "old dogs" in the tube talk section sometime. Happy listening! |
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