Denon DVD-2200
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 107 Registered: Apr-04 | The story of the famous knife which comes with different blades for different purposes yet lacking in the abilty to cut through thick material because of it's pocketsize is surely not the case for the Denon DVD 2200 universal player. The Denon guys came by the store together with demo units for both the DVD2200 and the DVD2900. My first question was why they sent me the DVD2900 when I only asked for the DVD2200. "You'll soon find out and save us the trip Lorenzo" was the reply they gave as they left. Whatever that meant we started to hook up the 2200 on my reference Pioneer AX-10i receiver. We used the Mission Volare series speakers to cover the front,center and rear channels. For LFE we used our old reliable Velodyne CHT15 subwoofer. Everything was wired by Monster Cables. Monitor by Samsung. After the Pioneer's auto setup MCACC was done we all sat down for a watch and hear session. Let's talk picture quality: Initial battle scenes of the Gladiator had plenty of dark portions on the backdrop, we noticed that in some instances we thought the quality of the detail suffered. Colour palette was cool and accurate. The picture was also steady and never flinched more so during the chaotic portion of the battle when the cavalry met up with the barbarians from behind(Admittedly, my Pioneer DV-S755Ai flickered during this scene).Consistent is the description we can apply to the images on the screen as an overall character. On a scale of 1 to 10 the panel rated it 8. Let's talk about the sound quality: Surprise surprise we felt the usual harshness at high volumes was significantly subdued much to our satisfaction. There was no need to make the occasional adjustment on the subwoofer to compensate for the metallic effects, the background music was always there. Everything was tight yet warm and coherent. For DVD-V the panel rated the performance a resounding 10! On DVD-A : We played The Band The Last Waltz and Faith Hill Cry to check on both Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 surround sound and high resolution stereo performance. Multichannel sound was top rate however the high resolution stereo playback fell short of audiophile standards. The panel rated it 9. On SACD: We played the Pink Floyd The Dark Side of the Moon. We found the multichannel sound more involving than in stereo playback. Perhaps the Denon design of incorporating dedicated multichannel decoders for DVD-A and SACD plus separated bass management for maximum effects would explain this. However no matter how good the sound may be and with due recognition of the design to merge the difference between two formats the sound was simply less convincing than the DVD-V or DVD-A options. The overall quality of the SACD playback sound fell well below expectations more so when compared to a separate stand alone SACD unit. To sum up our impressions the SACD sound was enough..but just not enough to meet the grade. The panel rated it at 7. For CD: There is nothing much to be said in praise. The panel rated it 4. CONCLUSIONS: Overall if value for money is the issue the DENON 2200 would be a NOBEL Prize winner. It's inherent strenghts far outweight it's shortcomings. The significance I feel for this product is the fact that not a single stone is left unturned by DENON in their efforts to meet the needs of all consumers. Already we see the light in the horizon. And sooner than we think all these minor flaws will be a thing of the past. I can't wait to open the DVD2900 and find out what's in the box! BTW : Comments or suggestions made are all personal opinions everyone is welcome to share their own comments,corrections,and contributions on the subject.  |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 130 Registered: Feb-04 | lorenzo Thanks for a very good review of the Denon 2200. I generally agree with your assessment of the player, except for the following: I think SACD sounds better than DVD-V with either the DD or DTS on the 2200. In fact, I found SACD very close to the quality of DVD-A reproduction. If you gave DVD-A performance a 9, I would probably rate the SACD an 8.5. I agree the CD reproduction on the player doesn't approach the quality of the other formats. I think it's better than most mass-market DVD players, but certainly not as good as a good dedicated CD player. I do think that CD performance is on par or slightly better than other DVD players in its price range. So I would rate it a 5 or 6 for this reason. I think the rest of your review is spot on. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 109 Registered: Apr-04 | Two Cents, You actually hit it on the button. The ratings were made as a collective decision of three persons including myself. My personal findings are right next door to yours. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 15 Registered: Apr-04 | Nice review Lorenzo. I'm very interested in how you'll grade the DVD-2900 compared to the DVD-2900. Especially regarding CD-playback and DD/DTS. Thanks! |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 144 Registered: Dec-03 | Lorenzo, Bravo! Super review. I went out to audition some DVD players this weekend, but had a speaker epiphany instead. I'll post my experience under SPEAKERS soon. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 110 Registered: Apr-04 | Rick, Ok man let us know if you hit a jackpot on anything while you're at it ok. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 182 Registered: Feb-04 | Lorenzo I'm looking to either the 2200 or 2900 soon myself. The only complaint (and they've all been good reviews) I've heard about the 2200 is that the disk tray action could be better and has a slight chassis vibration. Don't ask me which reviews, I read too many to pinpoint. Also, your review was appreciated. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 111 Registered: Apr-04 | My Rantz, Thanks,right now I'm still getting myself more familiar with the 2200 (having a cool time too)before I open the DVD2900. I'll be posting what we see and hear from it soon. Adam, Soon very soon. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 132 Registered: Feb-04 | My Rantz Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but I read some complaints that the disc transport is audible during quiet passages of movies/music. I haven't noticed it on my 2200, but I'll definitely listen for it and report it if it becomes an issue. I haven't read any complaints about chassis vibration though. The unit is designed so that the laser is in the center of the unit to minimize any effects of vibration. So far, I have seen absolutely no signs of chassis vibration on the 2200. The 2900 is even sturdier; it's built like a tank, which I think is its main advantage over the 2200. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 187 Registered: Feb-04 | Two Cents, Thanks, that's good to know. Both seem to be the way to go, but the 2900 is big step up for the wallet. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 115 Registered: Apr-04 | Everything moves or vibrates if it is to perform a given task. True with humans also true with machines. Mounting gear on isolators will help minimize jitter or any similar effects. We use 1" thick high grade automotive glass bevelled at the center 18" x 17" on our display rooms thus we never noticed any abnormal behavior on the 2200 in this area. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 192 Registered: Feb-04 | Lorenzo I found those reviews http://www.reviewcentre.com/review34580.html http://www.audioreview.com/DVD,Players/Denon,DVD-2200/PRD_292360_1587crx.aspx#re views (See Michigan Mike) The reviews for the 2200 are in general excellent. The minor quirks mentioned (if true) may not represent all units. |
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John_Dutch Unregistered guest | Well guys, I bought myself a 2200 some months ago. And I say, I really have to complain about chassis vibration. Especially with old CD's, some Philips/Decca ones. Last week I had a DVD and it vibrated too! So despite the fact that the sound can be good, I think Denon made a wrong choice here. I contacted them and they told me: there wasn't anything to do about it. So I'm not sure if I'll ever buy a Denon again. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 204 Registered: Feb-04 | John Dutch Thanks for the info - it's noted. Did you contact your dealer or Denon. If it was Denon, did they admit to the problem? |
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John_Dutch Unregistered guest | My Rantz, I contacted both. And yes, now they admit to the problem. The dealer advised me this apparatus because I wanted to use it mainly for CD's and occasionally for DVD. I think its quite unacceptable that they "cant do anything about it". I think they're going to offer me a CD-player and perhaps some money in return. But they allready stated that: "the audio quality will not be as good as the DVD-2200", funny isn't it? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 148 Registered: Dec-03 | i have had my 2200 for about a month now and have played dvd movies/dvd-a music/sacd and regular cd's. mine is as quiet if not quieter than any other dvd player i have had and i've used 5 players. so my guess would be it is not every player, and this is the first person i've heard on this board with this issue. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 149 Registered: Dec-03 | now the one thing that i do have a problem with is dvd+ or - media not playing all of mine very well if at all. and i have contacted denon with less than satisfactory results. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 147 Registered: Feb-04 | John, Did Denon say what causes the chassis to vibrate? Does it mainly happen playing CDs? Kegger, I read that the Denon doesn't play DVD+ but does play DVD- or the other way around. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 150 Registered: Dec-03 | i was told by denon and in the stats for the player it should do both. and it does play some dvdr+ disks but not very well.it may go along for awhile then start chopping.or not like the disk at all. it seems to play dvdr- better but still a couple issues. and frankly i find this to be a pretty major issue with me , when i can go out and bye a $50 player that has no problems reading the media. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 18 Registered: Apr-04 | I have to say this sounds like a big problem. One of the really important features of a DVD-player is the ability to play DVD-R/DVD+R disks so you can watch footage from a DV-camera on it.... If the DVD-2900 has the same problem, I'm not sure I'm going to buy it :/ |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 441 Registered: Dec-03 | Usually the major problem that people have with most dvd players are if they get a disc for the wrong regional code. Obviously, if you are burning your own dvd discs then you need to either have a dvd burner that is compatible with your player, or buy a player that is compatible with your burner. I don't know if there are universal players that will play both DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, along with DVD RAM. There are a number of inexpensive DVD players that will do the various video DVD formats. I have both a Denon 2900 and a Pioneer Elite 59AVi. The 59AVi will play DVD-R and DVD-RW. I have yet to use that capability --as I haven't bought a DVD burner yet. But if I do (to archive any TIVO'd programs or movies, or whatever), I will buy one that is compatible. So if I am worried that some friend who recorded on a different format is going to forcibly persuade me to watch his children romp around on a dvd home movie or watch his/her trip to Cancun--I'll buy an inexpensive dvd multi-format player for such purposes:-) |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 205 Registered: Feb-04 | John Dutch "I contacted both. And yes, now they admit to the problem. The dealer advised me this apparatus because I wanted to use it mainly for CD's and occasionally for DVD. I think its quite unacceptable that they "cant do anything about it". I think they're going to offer me a CD-player and perhaps some money in return. But they allready stated that: "the audio quality will not be as good as the DVD-2200", funny isn't it?" As others say they have not had this problem, why don't they give you a new replacement? Then, if the same problems occur they can offer you the other deal. That would be a more fair arrangement. And no, it's certainly not funny. It's not what you should expect from a major brand. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 152 Registered: Dec-03 | i have a dvd burner and have used several others. gregory i have to disagree with you it does not have anything to do with the dvd burner. i work for a computer company in the r&d department. we have had to test different burners on several pc's using various forms of software then we all take them home and test them on our players. after these tests what we had come to find out was different media made a difference as did alternet ways of recording but the burners made no difference.(that is computer burners) also along the way a very interesting discovery just because you had a better player than just the cheap $50 special did not mean you had better results with the media. so i began testing on as many players as i could friends,relitives and stores. one of my friends has a pioneer elite universal player and it plays both dvd-r and dvd+r with no problems. i recently got rid of my toshiba which played dvd-r's with no issues but would not play the + and my jvc that would not play either. and purchased the pioneer 563a and the denon2200 for 2 different rooms. the pioneer universal player will play every form of media i have shoved in it. while the denon will not. and that is my gripe.i figured ok the early ones i'll give them a little slack because the dvd burner was new. but to me any player that has come out or been produced in the last year should play the media. and exspecialy if it is listed on the player specs to do so along with the manufacturer telling you so. sorry about the long post but since i had conducted these tests i wanted to share. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 153 Registered: Dec-03 | and several of the guys i work with have cheapo players that will let the media play. that is what spurred my interest into more testing and making sure my next player worked. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 19 Registered: Apr-04 | Kegger do you have any DVD-R's that work perfectly in the 2200? And which burning software works the best with it? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 154 Registered: Dec-03 | yes khypermedia (khypermedia.com) and comp usa in house brand. for me personally i like the dvdxcopy program. nero seems to work good also. now with dvdxcopy on the denon unit when the logo for the copy protection display screen comes up you have to hit stop and play again for it to get past that.then you are fine.other players do not do this like the pioneer it will just play through. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 443 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger-- Thanks for the information. I was unaware of the extent of the problem. It is weird that the Pioneer Elite 59AVi only claims to read DVD-R and DVD-RW. One would think if it was more versatile than that, they would brag about. Seriously, maybe they and other companies need to hire you. Or you could probably write an article on which universal or DVD-A (or SACD) are most versatile and sell the article to Sound and Vision--or some such periodical. As I don't burn dvd's I am very much ignorant on the topic. My apologies if I seemed a bit flippant earlier. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 155 Registered: Dec-03 | no problem gregory. that is why i felt compelled to put my findings. i figured most people hadn't done the research i had. and yes i thought it strange too that pinoeer does not list dvd+r capability. as i could not use +r i had my friend try it and sure enough it worked fine on the elite. so i was burning all his disks on +r to use them up, and mine on -r. a lot of this type of stuff is discussed on http://www.dvdrhelp.com/ a good source. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 156 Registered: Dec-03 | i am right now in discussions with denon on trying to fix this. as i had sent a very long letter covering every angle of this issue to denon headquarters. they put me in touch with someone in charge of these type issues and i may have to go back up the latter as i'm not confident of this guy getting a resolve or caring. |
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John_Dutch Unregistered guest | Hi guys, just to let you know. 1. Yesterday I went to 2 diff shops. I took a CD with me. It caused the chassis to vibrate in the DVD-2200 and DVD-2900. The DVD-1500 and DVD-1600 did not vibrate. So I think its fair to conclude that its the hardware and/or software in the newer models that causes the problems. DENON obviously forget some testing. 2. I have the same problem on at least 4 CD's of my relatively small collection of 80 CD's. 3. I also had the same problem on my 2nd DVD. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 206 Registered: Feb-04 | John D Can you describe the vibration. Was it very audible and did it affect sound or picture. I don't understand why it happens on some cd's or dvd's and not others. Did the player seem to start having difficulty reading these disks before playing? Vibration suppression technology is supposed to be built in to these units. Seems like a very odd glitch! |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 158 Registered: Dec-03 | I still do not have any vibration issues and i play a lot of cd's. i use to dj for awhile and have amast a very large collection of various works and none of mine give me any problems. so it looks like it is not all of the players. someone else had posted a problem with reading copied media like myself and he had taken several disks to a dealer and tried them in 3 players and found one that worked fine so he grabbed it. there must be some units that are made different then others. |
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John_Dutch Unregistered guest | The vibration was very audible, you can feel the chassis shaking. It appears in the first few nrs of the CD's. It does not affect the sound or video quality though. I would have suspected something like this in cheaper products not on a DENON player. What bugs me is the answer from DENON here in the Netherlands: "we know the problem, but cant do anything about it". |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 118 Registered: Apr-04 | John The DENON guys were in my shop and I related the problem of the vibration you have been sharing here. It is obvious you have a damaged unit on hand with you. I dunno over there but DENON offered me a full replacement option if such an occurance is evident. Sometimes through mishandling sensitive gear can react in such fashion. |
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John_Dutch Unregistered guest | Lorenzo, thanks for your comment. But what puzzles me still is, why the same CD's vibrated in several DVD-2200 and even a DVD-2900. Do you think it is better to have a separate CD-player? And which one could you advise? |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 20 Registered: Apr-04 | I think the CD is off balance (or whatever it's called in english), meaning that it is causing vibration because of uneven weight distribution. Try putting it in a highspeed CD-ROM drive and see if it makes more noise than other CDs. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 445 Registered: Dec-03 | Odd. I have a Denon 2900 it it operates smooth as silk and is built like a tank. I also have a Pioneer Elite 59AVi and have had no problems with it either, although it isn't built as heavily as the 2900. Denon must be having some quality control issues. |
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philip Unregistered guest | barny, I emailed ohm to order a pair of micro tall,they replied they only sell u.s and canada,is there any other way i could buy a pair of them? how can i contact lorenzo? does he sell ohm speakers? |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 448 Registered: Dec-03 | It doesn't seem likely that Lorenzo would sell Ohm Speakers if they only sell direct and don't ship any other place than the US or Canada---unless he has Ohm trade-ins from customers--and I am sure those would be older Ohm models. Since these speakers have just been released I doubt there is much of a used market. If they only sell direct in the USA and Canada then the best you can do is find some person/dealer in the US/Canada that will buy them in their own name and trans-ship them to you. And most people/dealers that are willing to tranship usually tack on 10% or more, nevermind the extra shipping costs. And I wouldn't bet that they would get involved (except for a price) if you needed warranty work. I would only buy from Ohm directly. And if they won't ship you or support a product overseas, it strikes me as not a good idea to buy the product, unless you like to live dangerously. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 209 Registered: Feb-04 | Philip Click on Lorenzos name int the left hand column and send him a private message! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 720 Registered: Dec-03 | There is a review of the Arcam DV79 in May HiFi News. It is about the same price as the Denon 2900, I think, or not far off. It has HDMI digital video interface. It does not have SACD. That's what I would be looking at, though. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 216 Registered: Feb-04 | John A Thanks I read the review on the Arcam DV79. What a great unit! Unfortunately it will only play SACD in 2 channel. But it seems like a wonderful all rounder with cd audiophile quality and superb video handling. I imagine it would be around the same price as the Denon 2900. But, it may be a while yet before we take the step so maybe the choices will increase in the meantime. Naturally, we all want the best, with it all, for the least! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 724 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Yes, choices will increase, and so will value for money, I think. When you have high audio standards and also have to work within a budget then there is never going to be a simple solution. The same HiFi news has a review of a turntable costing UK pounds 49,000. Life must be fairly agreeable for someone who can afford one of those! |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 121 Registered: Apr-04 | John A If I should buy a turntable for GBP 49,000.00 you have my full consent to commit me to the nearest mental institution. Gee whizz they must be using golden disc to play eh? |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 731 Registered: Dec-03 | Lorenzo, http://www.bluepearlaudio.co.uk/ It is called a Blue Pearl Audio JEM turntable. At least someone else has confidence in the future of LPs.... |
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John_Dutch Unregistered guest | Hey guys, just to give you an update on my "Denon mission". I made a copy of my problematic CD, and gues what, it heared no vibrating problem at all. So its clear now for me. It really is a strange problem between some Cd's and the Denon 2200 and 2900. Too bad, for Denon, that they cant or will not fix this problem. I'm changing to NAD now. Not sure if it wil be their DVD or CD player. Any suggestions are welcome. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 738 Registered: Dec-03 | John_Dutch, CD and DVD quality control is beginning to become an issue, I think. They are supposed to be flat, round, balanced, and not more than than 1.5 mm thick. Different players have different tolerances for discs. And the "flip" discs with different material on each side are sometimes up to 1.8 mm, I read, and one thing holding up DVD/CD flips is the industry is scared of litigation from people who get the discs stuck in players, especially the auto-takeup-disc ones as in cars and on laptop computers. NAD has a nice, new and inexpensive DVD-A/DVD-V/CD/etc player, the T533, but they make no SACD player at all. I have posted on this, see e.g. NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio. The Denon 2200 is recommended by good guys here as a way to go if you want both DVD-A and SACD. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 452 Registered: Dec-03 | John A.-- I don't know if they have confidemce in the future of LP's. I do know they have confidence that there are people with a lot money that are willing to pay that kind of money for a turntable. I am sure they don't expect to sell too many. But then again--they don't have to. They make an obscene amount of money on each one anyway. The only time I have had a problem with cd playback is in car systems or computer systems with the push-in cd. And even then it has been from people that have sent me cd's with a paper stick-on label. A big paperclip has always worked for me in my car, the two or three times it has happened. As far as LP's existence is concerned, there will be for the forseeable future a small, but loyal following for LP's (for a number of reasons). A lot of older people have LP's and want to listen to them. Many of the older LP performances have never been transferred to CD or other digital format and some that have been transferred, have been done poorly with bad level controls and too much compression. Also, a number of the high end magazines still pray at the LP altar (notice the ads for expensive turntables and cartridges--not to mention specialty house expensive LP's) and have a number of people that buy into the superiority of analog and LP's. The only reason an LP might sound better is that the engineer of the cd used too much compression in mastering to make it louder--thus ruining the inherent advantage of cd's. Most older LP's (more in classical and jazz -less true in rock and pop)were mastered with much less compression.Very few rock producer/engineers have used compression well or musically. In the early days of cd transfers from previously released LP's, the engineer often added even more compression during the process of transferring the master to the cd. This compounded the problems in sound and undoubtedly is the cause of much of the high end view of sonic superiority of LP's (along with the non-scientific view that analog sounds better). Everything else on a cd is better and that goes even more so on DVD-A, DVD-V, and SACD (at least the latest spec on SACD. As long as the engineer doesn't use too much compression, the cd will ALWAYS have better resolution and a much better noise floor. I still listen to my old collection of LP's, but I certainly don't buy new ones anymore (unless I want to hear music that isn't on cd or DVD). The only thing I miss about LP albums is the nice large print and cover art. I'll take a well-recorded CD/DVD-A/SACD over an equally well-recorded LP anyday. Of course, I'll take a well recorded LP over a bad cd transfer or a poor digital recording too, but that has zero to do with the format and everything to do with the engineer. Anyway, for those that are interested there I will post an article by a recording engineer that has worked on both formats (and still does). |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 220 Registered: Feb-04 | Gregory and John A I don't qualify to get into the argument about LP vs CD as I never had the benefit in my LP days of having quality equipment. But, in my 300+ collection of CD's the sound qualities vary so much that when selecting 5 discs for our CD changer (don't laugh, the processing is done through the receiver) I have to be careful with choices otherwise I'd spend time changing volumes with the remote instead of listening. One example: Van's "What's Wrong With This Picture" on Blue Note label is such a well engineered recording compared his "Too Long In Exile" from a few years back which required such high volumes to gain any depth to the sound. The former Blue Note recording IMO is of a quality CD engineers should be adhering. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 453 Registered: Dec-03 | From an article by a recording engineer for Public Radio and for commercial recordings. "There are many instances where the quality of a performance will outweigh sonic deficiencies. But with the state of technology what it is, especially compared to what it was 30 years ago, I don't think there is any excuse for bad sound on a major-label big-budget CD, and even less justification for intentionally making something sound "lo-fi" just to be cool. Having grown up in the analogue days when signal-to-noise ratio was something vigorously pursued with improved tape formulations (for master tapes), getting rid of noisy, unreliable tube equipment (which seems to have made a comeback in the professional audio world like some prehistoric monster from the lagoon), tape noise-reduction systems, and lots of "tweaking," most good recording engineers were always trying for quieter recording with the maximum possible dynamic range -- the difference in loudness between the loudest peak and the "noise floor" of your equipment. Back in the 1970s, digital audio held remarkable promise. Though the early digital equipment had its share of problems -- and there were vigorous arguments over the way the conversion between analogue and digital would color the sound -- there was little argument about the glorious 90 db or more of dynamic range that digital could provide. A really good analogue tape machine with noise reduction could give you in the high 60s. But once the music got onto an LP for distribution to consumers, only the very finest vinyl formulations, and a virtually virg-n pressing could give a signal to noise ratio approaching 60 db. Most commercial pressings, especially those played a few times, averaged in the low 50s, and intermittent pops and scratches could actually could be louder than the music itself (a negative signal-to-noise ratio). So even with the best quality manufacturing, the recording that music lovers bought in the store never sounded as good as the master tape. In 1982-83 when compact discs were introduced, it was like an epiphany for most engineers and audio cognescenti. For the first time, consumers could purchase a recording in a medium whose dynamic range exceeded that of $20,000 professional tape machines. Now I know that there are vinyl-philes who still swear that LPs sound better than CDs. But right now I'm talking about signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range. Putting aside the arguments about the analogue digital conversion process, I don't think anyone can make a convincing case that an LP (or a cassette for that matter) has a dynamic range that comes within 20 db of that available on a CD. With the advent of the CD, record buyers could finally experience the full dynamic range of the music. And for the first few years CDs did provide appreciably better dynamic range than LPs or cassettes. But since then something has gone seriously wrong. First, let's backtrack a bit. Vinyl LPs have a number of physical limitations, owing to the actual mechanics of making records. An LP is literally cut from a master disk, usually made of lacquer, or sometimes of metal. Cutting an LP is a constant compromise between level (volume), playing time, trackability and residual surface noise. Too much level and grooves will overlap and cause a skip. The more playing time per side, the lower the maximum available level. A really good mastering engineer, whose job it was actually to cut the master disk, would develop a reputation for the ability to take a master tape and translate that into the best compromise the physics of an LP would permit. Sometimes that would mean using a "compressor" to reduce the dynamic range, bringing down the loudest peaks and raising the volume of softer passages. Mastering engineers also would prepare the master tape for cassette duplication, usually fixing the level and equalization of the master, and often also adding some compression to make up for a cassette's limited dynamic range. With the pop music business having become very competitive, a myth arose among producers and record companies that the way to get one's record to stand out (in the competition for airplay) was to make it as loud as possible. Since the loudness of a LP or single is subject to the physical limitations of the medium, the way to make a record, especially a 45 rpm single, louder was to compress it heavily, much as commercial radio stations do to sound loud on the air. Some rock may not sound bad heavily compressed -- the Beatles and their producer George Martin were able to use compression artistically. Now, with the CD, we have more than 90 db of dynamic range to utilize, and no surface noise or risk of groove skip to worry about. So what has become of all that wonderful dynamic range? The loudness wars have come back. While most classical CDs still make use of the CD's dynamic range potential, once again the fallacious belief that "louder is better" has permeated the record industry. One would think with the ability of the CD to deliver an accurate representation of the master tape, that mastering engineers would become an endangered species. However the skills of mastering engineers can be invaluable in taking a master that might consist of different songs recorded in different studios putting them together into a sonically consistent continuum. Also, experienced mastering engineers can "tweak" masters tapes to improve the sound to play well in a variety of listening situations. Where the current pressure is coming from is unclear, but several prominent mastering engineers have complained that they are being pushed to make the CDs they work on as loud as possible. The digital audio medium also has its maximum upper limit in level, in this case all digital "ones." So to make the music sounder louder more of the time, that means adding compression, just like the bad old days of 45s. My CD player has a digital level display, and I am also able to take the digital output of a CD and run it into a computer editing system allowing statistical study of audio levels, and I am constantly appalled at how many CDs spent most of their time in the top 3-4 db of the 90 db available, with absolute digital maximum level being reached very frequently -- sometimes on every beat. Sophisticated digital compressors alleviate all the horrible distortion that would normally happen from hitting the digital "brick wall," but nuances and the "airy" quality of the recording are murdered. In the audio business, there is something of a chasm between broadcast audio engineers and recording engineers. Folks from one camp don't seem to know a lot about the practices and mindset of the other. I guess I'm lucky to work on both sides of the fence -- making music recordings for broadcast and then hearing just how they sound on the air. Every broadcast station already uses compression on the air. There is a legal limit, as regulated and monitored by the FCC, to the loudness of sound on the air. So to keep a signal loud enough not to be lost in fading, and static, compression, which varies by station and format, is inevitably used. The fallacy that seems to have become pervasive among many people in the pop music recording field, especially among record companies, is that if a CD is pushing the absolute digital max it will somehow be louder or better on the air and presumably win more airplay, and thus sell more copies to the public. This is not true at all. Compressing a CD will contribute to on-air loudness almost unnoticeably. Radio people have the brains to turn up a CD that's recorded at a normal level, and broadcast stations' existing compressors will even everything out anyway. The only thing that is accomplished is messing up the dynamic range for those who pay their good money for CDs, "squashing" the life out of any acoustic instruments in the mix, and increasing listener fatigue. Lately, this has been made worse by the increasing availablity of "desktop audio," which puts powerful compression tools in the realm of the home studio, by using a computer to perform the mastering function. Increasing numbers of CDs are being released that have come from home and "project" studios, with generally less-experienced people doing the mixing and mastering in these settings. So some serious damage is being done by people impressed by how much louder they can make their recording sound by crushing the dynamic range with relatively inexpensive software. Further, there is the phenomenon of "cascaded compression." When an already-compressed signal (e.g. a CD) is itself compressed (e.g. when played on a radio station), the compressors can actually "fight" each other, one bringing down the signal, followed by another one with different characteristics that might want to bring it back up at a slightly different rate. The result can border on distortion, and gives an especially annoying "pumping" sound, that ruins what is left of the dynamics of the music and can leave the artist and producer's sonic intent in shambles. And this is exactly the situation when a compressed CD is run on a radio station with its own compression. Twenty five years of recording music for broadcast has led me to what seems like a heretical opinion these days: relatively uncompressed music recordings sound better on the air, and no less loud. The CDs I mix try to preserve as much dynamic range as their genre calls for. And experience has shown that they will stand up to anything else, in terms of loudness on the air. So in my own small way, I'll add my voice to those in the professional audio business who are starting to complain about this sonic cheapening of music. With 20-bit bit-mapping technologies and ultimately the 24-bit potential of the DVD medium, the future dynamic range potential of CD is very bright. Why then, is the record business throwing away 95% of the potential of even today's 16-bit technology in the loudness fallacy? So in the hope someone takes notice, I'll continue to complain whenever good music on CD is degraded by excessive compression." My addendum: There is little doubt that one can make a far superior cd or dvd in every measure of sound and performance to those of 45's, LP's, or cassettes. There is also no doubt that there are many engineers that are using too much compression on cd's and dvd's and are destroying much of the inherent advantages of the technology. There is nothing in recorded sound so wonderful as being able to hear the soft passages crescendo into loud passges with little to no compression. Too much compression and you lose the great dynamic range and destroy the performance. On rock performances that have small dynamic range, the compression may be fine. On acoustic music it can be disastrous. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 741 Registered: Dec-03 | Gregory, I agree completely with the writer from Public Radio/commercial. who is this? What is the source? I would buy his recordings. Compression is the enemy. I wonder partly whether the problem is that a lot of stuff, including broadcasts (heavily compressed - ludicrous - sometimes) is intended to play in cars, competing against a background noise level of 60 dB upwards. The writer, and you, are also correct about signal-to-noise ratios and dynamic range, in my opinion, and that is a desirable objective. But there is a detail and resolution in analogue. The rare LP where everything is right has more transient information than CD, I think - you can more easily distinguish musical instruments from each other (where the first few tens-to-hundreds of milliseconds contain the intrument's transient "signature") and also, of course, the human voice - you can hear the consonants, and so, the words better. To me the "road to Damascus" has been DVD-A. I have gone back to my best CDs and the detail is just not there. But I then put on a late 1970s quality LP, I have several in mind, and there may be rumble from the bearing on the tape recorder, and tape hiss, bringing the S/N crashing down, but it is like the performers are in the room. CD sounds like MP3, in comparison - there are no noises, faults, or blemishes, but it is like a spectre of real music. Not always: they vary, of course. Sometimes the high signal-to-noise is worth trading for detail, sometimes it isn't. BTW while you and My Rantz are here, we've got "the Last Walz" DVD-V. What a galaxy of stars. When we've heard/watched it, I will find the right thread, and report back! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 779 Registered: Dec-03 | Everyone here who recommended "The Last Walz": Thank you! Really, really good. And something I would never have come across without your recommendations. I am going to post this on several threads to make sure it is not missed. What a fantastic concert. What a fantastic band. What fantastic guests. What a tribute to those all-round talented musicians. |
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Silver Member Username: GmanMt. Pleasant, SC Post Number: 466 Registered: Dec-03 | John A-- I am so glad you enjoyed it. It is a mix of of Americana music performances (blues, rock, etc.) which should be in the Smithsonian played on a 24 hour loop. It is modern American music culture at its best., with a dash of UK and Ireland for good measure. There is a strong belief that the noise level and background hiss on an LP give the brain the impression of a live performance. They have a name for this which I forget--I will have to look it up, but there has been and there is currently research being done on this phenomena. What has re-inforced this notion among acoustic engineers and scientists is that they have played LP's to certain audiophiles that adore LP's from recordings done totally in digital--just played on LP's. Needless to say, these audiophiles preferred the LP over the basically "noiseless" cd and DVD-A, saying it gave them a feeling of realness and liveness. So it appears this sense has nothing to do with analogue, but is noise related. Needless to say, the LP-heads "howled" quite nastily when told. Humorously, many of them don't even realize that some of their current LP's they love and swear by were totally recorded in digital, not analog. Very Zen--It is the noise that binds us:-) |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 230 Registered: Feb-04 | John A So glad you like "The Last Waltz" it's a treasured title in our collection. I can't add much to what's already been said except the Band had some "real" characters who could really do it. I feel sorry for today's youth! John, Gregory, Keggar and others, I know I've mentioned this before but keep in mind John Mayall & The Bluesbreakers and friends in the 70th Bithday Concert DVD to audtion. All I can say is outstanding performances and sound quality. Mayall, at seventy, is remarkable. And of course, Clapton shines, Chris Barber's trombone solo was something else while Buddy Whitington on lead guitar certainly holds his own to Clapton. It was 38 years since Mayall and Clapton had played together and Mayall said, "It was like time had just melted away." Over 130 min of joy. While I'm at it, 2 more DVD concert recommendations: Sade LIVE (She's stunning - sings well too!) Tribute to Stevey Ray Vaughn - BB King, Jimmy Vaugh, Robert Cray, Dr John, Buddy Guy, and Clapton etc. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 789 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz and Gregory, Thanks so much. Briefly on association of hiss etc. with the live performance. Yes, the human mind works by suggestion. It ain't so surprising. I think the Kinsey report discovered all sorts of impossibilities in investigating you-know-what behaviour (trying to fly below the ecoustics radar, not prissy language). Apparently some folk quickly acquire an unexpected association for the smell of latex rubber (fairly obnoxious stuff, considered in itself) at an early age, that lasts and never goes away. No personal comments here, we'll get ecoustics shut down! But back to LPs. Well, I bought one in about 1981, and hardly played it, not caring for the music much at that time. I got it out last week, trying to work out if it was me or CDs that have changed in the last few weeks. On Meridian. Simple miking. Agfa tape recorder. I could look it up, it's on the sleeve. Programme: Baritone and Piano, esoteric stuff. S/N ratio. Low, probably. Rumble. Thought my turtable was getting old. It was the tape recorder. I really hate rumble. Hiss. Well, no compression, no Dolby noise reduction, reel-to-reel: what do you expect? But, and I am not kidding, it was just like the guys were actually in the room. I didn't need to read the words on the sleeve, I could hear every single one. I have just never had that experience from a CD. Never. Thanks for further recommendations, My Rantz. I will certainly look out for the 70 th Birthday concert. There was a John Mayall LP once with a picture of the BLuesbreakers, including what looked like small boy, reading "The Beano". He was the guy who did that number with Robbie Robertson in The Last Walz, and now has his tribute album to Robert Johnson, "Me and Mr Johnson". I cannot possibly have read "Chris Barber"...? The first music I ever really listened to was my much-older brother's collection of jazz and things. It was the middle of the Brit "Trad" revival, and skiffle (mean anything to anyone?). The Chris Barber Jazz band. Ottolie Pattersen doing what I later learned were Bessie Smith songs such as "Careless Love Blues". Chris Barber playing with John Mayall? That's surreal. Like Mozart accompanying Ella Fitzgerald or something. I think I have been working to hard. Anyway, I 'll just have to check that one out! All the best. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 237 Registered: Feb-04 | "I cannot possibly have read "Chris Barber"...?" John - Yes, strange but true. Mayall credits him for introducing the American blues greats to England in the fifties. He not young but can still pull the slide - and has a whole lot of fun doing it! Wife and I watched and listened again yesterday - she like it as much as I! |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 821 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, Wow. No Chris Barber; no Eric Clapton. Yes, I think it makes sense. The Chris Barber jazz band was full of stars in the making. Probably the most successful was Lonnie Donegan. He started himself with skiffle and talking blues such as "The Rock Island Line" - getting stuff like that into the hit parade! In the very un-swinging 50s! 'Course, he later "Sold out". Ottolie Patterson's (?) St Louis Blues was the first version I heard. I think I fell in love with that voice. Man, I've got to follow that recomendation. Thanks! BTW Yes, The more I think about it, you could not have had the Beatles or the Stones without the 50s trad-blues revival, either. They were in short trousers at the time, but the music was everywhere. So I am told..... |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 240 Registered: Feb-04 | John A The old quote, "The Blues had a baby and they called it Rock & Roll" certainly applies to the Stones, Beatles and so many others. After electronics was thrown in the conventional blues mix no form of contraception could have prevented its birth. Though I admit to a strong fondess for quality Rock, contempory blues, jazz/blues and rythmic jazz are the bulk of our collection. I note your genuine (unpretentiou) fondness for the classics, some I can listen to and really appreciate, as I can with other styles, but not enough to have gained any real knowledge. But generally for me: "If it ain't got that swing . . . " |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 56 Registered: Apr-04 | I'm posting my preliminary experience with the DVD-2900 here, so it doesn't get lost in the other thread on NAD T533: Well I've been enjoying my new DVD-2900 today. It was great fun, until I found out that it doesn't like to play ~12% of my CD's  When it had trouble with the first one, I thought it was because the CD was dirty. It wasn't, and it also had no scratches. Hmmm. A lot of CDs later, and it was apparently a bigger problem than I initially thought. I couldn't see any reason why the CDs shouldn't work in the DVD-2900. All the discs can play in my NAD T550 and other CD players. What happens is that after putting the CD in, the transport will spin up and down a couple of times and then stop with the display showing 0h00m00s (not "No Play"), like it's empty. So apparently it can't even detect the presence of the CDs? I then proceeded to screen a large portion of my CDs, and sort them into working and not working. If any of the CDs that I've tested to work, start to have the same problem, I'll be pretty sure that something is very wrong with the player. Until then I'll assume that the CDs in question are abnormal in some way. It looks like the edges have a larger transparent zone. That is a larger area not covered by the dye layer. However I can't be sure if this is the cause. Other than this the CDs have no physical characteristics in common. There are both old and new among them. Also both singles and albums. Some are completely clean of any dirt/smudges and scratches. Others have a tiny bit of wear, but nothing out of the ordinary. Indeed my most scratched CD can be played without fuss, so this problem is quite puzzling, but also very aggravating. I haven't experienced the shaking vibration John Dutch was talking about. I've emailed the local Denon dealer to hear if they have newer firmware versions for the transport logic than my player's. If I can't get this fixed by that, I'll have to demand a new replacement, or a full refund. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 169 Registered: Feb-04 | Adam, There's definitely something wrong with the player and you should get it replaced or refunded. I've been using a 2200 for the past month and have had no problems playing DVD-V, DVD-A, SACD, and CDs. I used to have a Blaupunkt CD player in my car that would reject some CDs. It drove me nuts. Good luck straightening this out. Let us know how it works out and how responsive Denon or your dealer is. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 57 Registered: Apr-04 | 2 Cents, Thanks, I will. One of the CDs previously tested ok just did the same thing. Also when using headphones I noticed that the sound was unbalanced side to side, with the left dominating compared to using the receiver's DACs. So I'm definitely going to get a new one. I'll give Denon a second chance and hold off on the refund. But if the new one doesn't work absolutely flawlessly, it's refund time :/ The law here provides me with 14 day full refund, so unless the dealer decides to break the law!! I should be covered. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 170 Registered: Feb-04 | Adam, That's excellent. It's good to hear you're giving the Denon 2900 a second chance. It's a quality player as long as it's working properly. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 214 Registered: Dec-03 | yah I'm still happy with my 2200 and no cd issues. I still have the burnt dvd issue but that's different. my player is very quiet and sounds great. it also plays every cd i put in it. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 122 Registered: Apr-04 | Hi All, We tested the 2900 and found the sound on all formats to our satisfaction. The addition of 5 capacitors on the output stages proved to be a great improvement on the overall sound quality vis a vis the 2200 (BTW I got the 2200 anyways for my personal gear cheper hehe). The 2900 simply sounded a lot warmer and clean too. Well if you have extra moolah to spend best you have a listen then decide. Adam, Are the DENON gear you get from your retail dealer direct imports from Japan or are they assembled there? Our Denons here are coming from Japan direct and we happy to say we have so far not encountered your troubles. Cheers to ALL Lorenzo |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 58 Registered: Apr-04 | Lorenzo, I thought Denons were assembled in China like most other Hifi manufacturers? It says made in China on the box anyway. I bought it from a certified Denon dealer in Germany and had it sent here (Denmark). It was still about $500USD cheaper than buying it from the certified Denon dealernetwork here. My options are bringing it in for repair here, or sending it back to Germany and getting a new one. Since I just got it, I won't be satisfied with a repaired player, so I'm going to send it back. I have a suspicion it might be transport damage even though there's no visible damage on the box. I'll report back what I figure out. |
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Silver Member Username: Lockaudio801Post Number: 123 Registered: Apr-04 | Adam, Our local distributor gets it from JAPAN a bit more expensive but worthwhile quality wise. Box packaging indicates MADE IN JAPAN. Lorenzo |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 257 Registered: Feb-04 | I don't know about elsewhere, but, here in Aus I believe the 2200's are made in China and the 2900's are made in Japan. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 172 Registered: Feb-04 | The Denon units sold in the U.S. are also manufactured in China. Congrats to Lorenzo for his purchase. It's reassuring that someone as selective and discerning about his audio equipment would add the Denon 2200 to his system. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 63 Registered: Apr-04 | Well I just went to the local Denon dealer to check if some of my "problem CDs" would play on their demo DVD-2900. No problems. I also noticed that opening and closing the loading tray was much more quiet, than on the one I had. So mine probably had some kind of mechanical failure. I asked a salesman if he was aware of any general CD problems with the DVD-2900, but he didn't know of any, except the normal difficulties with copy protection (which wasn't relevant in my case). He did say something I found very strange. He said Denon has stopped producing the DVD-2900, and that it won't be replaced by another model?? This sounds very strange considering it's only about 6 months old, and it has received rave reviews. Seems like it should be selling very well for them. I think he might have just been blowing smoke, and tried to give me a false sense of haste, so I'd buy one (I didn't tell him I'd already bought one from another dealer). I also called the German dealer where I bought the DVD-2900, and he said it was still in production and that he was sure of it. However I have to wait till next week for the replacement player, because there is a shortage of them in Germany. Hmmm... What do you guys think? Have you heard anything about the DVD-2900 going out of production? |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 181 Registered: Feb-04 | When I was researching new universal players, I read somehwere, probably in another forum, that the 2900 is being discontinued. I haven't confirmed that through official channels. My guess is that when Denon introduced the 2200, it probably drove down the sales of the 2900. The two models seem comparable and really compete against each other. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 67 Registered: Apr-04 | The head of purchases of the Denon dealer for the whole of Denmark, just posted an answer in their forum that there were no plans, to stop production of the DVD-2900 in a foreseable future. But it's weird that some sources are still saying it is being discontinued. |
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Silver Member Username: John_aPost Number: 965 Registered: Dec-03 | Adam, Thanks. The conclusion is we need a review of dealers as much as audio equipment! |
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New member Username: JeremymayfPost Number: 1 Registered: May-04 | Kegger, I'm experiencing the same read problems with burned dvd's both + and - on the 2200. Contacted Denon--I figured even if there is no solution, the more people that complain might rouse them to action. Anyway, the rep i spoke to said that the issue is with recorders (so many standards) and not the player. The 3 different firmware versions unit originally shipped with make no difference as regards playing home DVD's. People have had better luck with "Verbatim +R" CLEAR discs. Well, it sounds like he's blowin some smoke--first deny the problem, then recommend a "possible" solution which he heard from a customer. However, he was very nice and did offer to send me the Aliens firmware fix. Right now I'm burning +r with nec ND-1100A, and +/-R with Digital research DVDRW8D--have encountered freezing problem with memorex +R, and imation -R. I guess I'll give the Verbatim discs a shot. Would appreciate any suggestions. Other than this problem, I love the 2200--m/ch SACD and DVD-A are incredible! Jeremy |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 262 Registered: Dec-03 | someone who i had talked to tried the same disks in 3 different players and found 1 220 that played properly. did you get the firmware from denon and have you tried it i would be very curious. |
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New member Username: JeremymayfPost Number: 2 Registered: May-04 | haven't received the firmware yet--just talked to the denon rep this morning. I picked up some of those verbatim Dvd+r's--going to give them a try. At walmart the wife and I saw an Apex with coax audio out and s-video out--$43. Plays both + and - formats so far without a hitch. Picture is decent and the coax out allows the receiver to decode sound. I guess for our burned dvd's we'll use this unit until a fix for the denon comes along (hopefully). I'll let you know when I receive the firmware. Jeremy |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 71 Registered: Apr-04 | Jeremy, I would try the Verbatim DVD-R discs instead of DVD+R, as I think they are more compatible with most DVD-players. Also the burning software is very important for the compatability. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1014 Registered: Dec-03 | Adam, Jeremy, Kegger, I can burn CDs on my computers. No problem. However, I have never succeeded in burning a DVD. I start, as with CD, by making an exact disc image. It looks like disc - all the files and the directories seem to be there, but there is no content, and nothing to burn. When I ask the computer for the size of the original DVD, it says 5.3 GB. The disc image says, I think, 6.7 GB. But there is still nothing there. I have always assumed I have run up against some sort of copy protection. Sorry if this is a "stupid newbie question". Could there be a simple thing I am doing wrong? Yes, the drive will burn DVDs, or so it says. I have two computers that claim they will do this, and they both burn CDs OK. It must be a "software issue"....? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 264 Registered: Dec-03 | yes john you are right it's the software you are using. dvd's are written different than cd's and you can not just copy them the media has to be extracted properly and recreated on your hard drive. once that is done you can use just about any dvd burning program you wish. the 2 that i use are dvd xcopy and a new one that i just started using is a freeware ripper i think it is called dvdiso or isodvd ahh it's at work can't remember the name right now. but anyways you will have more of a chance to get a dvd-r to work on more players than dvd+r. and if i'm thinking correctly you have a mac and it's drive more than likely only does dvd+r. JEREMY i am in the same boat with you i bought a pioneer 563a universal player along with the 2200 and the pioneer plays every disk i put in it. no matter how it is recorded or what media i use so that obviuosly tells you that denon can do it if they wish to put the effort into it. as i have stated before on this and other threads i work in the r&d department of a computer company and have done a lot of testing and research on this subject and it just baffles me that a $40 player can do it just fine but $600 player can't. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1020 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Thanks. Maybe this leads off topic, but you say "dvd-r to work on more players than dvd+r". Here, you see how little I know - what's the difference? Is there an internet link or something to tell me? I always thought I could do most things with computers. I enjoy finding work-arounds just to see what can be done, and sometimes you can save time and money. But I'll be damned if I am going to waste time trying to crack into encryption systems. Life is too short for that! I've seen some pirated DVDs, and the guys should be put in prison purely on grounds of taste, imho. (That's a joke. Well....) |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 265 Registered: Dec-03 | Commercial Answer The truth is that the two competing technologies use different formats. No single company "owns" DVD and both technologies have their "champions". DVD-R/RW was developed by Pioneer. Based on CD-RW technology, it uses a similar pitch of the helix, mark length of the 'burn' for data, and rotation control. DVD-R/RW is supported by the DVD Forum, an industry-wide group of hardware and software developers, and computer peripheral manufacturers. The DVD-R format has been standardized in ECMA-279 by the Forum, but this is a private standard, not an 'industry' ISO standard like the CD-R/RW Red Book or Orange Book standard. DVD+R/RW is also based on CD-RW technology. DVD+R/RW is supported by Sony, Philips, HP, Dell, Ricoh, Yamaha, and others, and has recently been endorsed by Microsoft. DVD+R/RW is not supported by the DVD Forum, but the Forum has no power to set industry standards, so it becomes a market-driven issue. Technical Answer DVD+R is a dvd disc that allows multiple layers for one disc where as dvd-r only allows one layer. They will not compete to become the de Facto standard, because they are both here to stay. Multi layer DVD+R can allow extra capacity per disc than DVD-R hence its high cost! that was from my notes of when i started testing dvd recording. |
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New member Username: JeremymayfPost Number: 3 Registered: May-04 | Adam I think you're probably right, I tried a Verbatim +R tonight. It was comical and sad at the same time. I first put the disc in the denon and got sound and no video. Then I put the disc in the Apex and it played perfectly. To be fair to the denon, the disc consisted of video significantly compressed with DVD-Shrink(about 60% of the original size). I burned another movie where the video integrity was over 90% of the original which I'll try tomorrow (I think that will be a more fair test). As far as software goes, I'm using Nero 6 which works in conjunction with DVD shrink. If the verbatim +R's wind up not reading on the denon I'll try the -R verbatims as soon as I burn up my present supply. Kegger I hear you---I have to compliment the Apex for handling that compressed video--and for only $43! John A.--I went through the same learning process about a year ago when I got my first DVD-burner. The NEC ND1100a that came with my DEll only burns +R, which Dell naturally neglected to tell their customers(even worse they didn't tell their own technicians). After a few hours of pure frustration trying to burn a DVD-R, I decided to go to the Dell forums where I found a myriad of heated threads discussing my problem. Luckily I had bought my computer a couple months after the storm (in one of the threads a guy complained that a Dell technician had him re-install windows a couple times trying to get the drive to burn DVD-R's!!). At the time I did some google searching to learn about DVD+/- Kegger's explanation of the difference seems to be the clearest and most concise I've read. Jeremy |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1022 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger, Thanks. that is fantastically clear and helpful. I see now I can burn DVD-R onto and 4.7 GB DVD-R, but not DVD-RW. I see also you can burn each side. Also, in which format is a commercial, read-only DVD-D or DVD-A? Apart from the number of layers, are these physically different types of discs? If so, can you still burn one format onto to a disc intended for the other (I am think of ISO and other CD formats, which all seem to be OK on a standard 650 MB disc)? Jeremy: Thanks! "Dell naturally neglected to tell their customers". Really, this kind of thing should stop. why there isn't a massive consumer revolt by duped customers, I do not know. Both: Looks like another format war. Just lining up the armies, I know whose side I am on. It is very reminiscent of DVD-A vs SACD. This must be another battle-front in a digital standards war. One should always look at the specs, and decide, I realise that. But thanks, again, for the clear information. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 271 Registered: Dec-03 | john commercial disks are niether they are different alltogether. so any media will work to copy them on. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1029 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Kegger. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 273 Registered: Dec-03 | yes dvd shrink that was the other progam. it creates an iso you can burn to a disk. with another program like nero or whatever. one thing to remember some home dvd players need you to copy the disk at 2x speed and will not read anything faster! |
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New member Username: JeremymayfPost Number: 4 Registered: May-04 | Well, here's an update on the verbatim +R with 2200. Copy of wife's Pirates of the Carribean, DTS only and >90% video quality, burned with Digital research DVDRW8D at 4X. Made it through the whole movie without freezing. In addition, I did use the "skip" scene feature forward and backward. Skipping scenes always seems to bring the freeze problem on more quickly. So far so good. We talked it over though,and decided to keep the Apex. That little player has really impressed us. I think we'll save the Denon for high rez and originals and let the Apex handle the rest. Jeremy |
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New member Username: JeremymayfPost Number: 5 Registered: May-04 | Update on Dennon 2200 + Aliens DTS Firmware upgrade: The firmware upgrade does not improve the freezing problem of the 2200 with certain DVD+/- discs. Have now tried 7 Verbatim DVD+ Digital movie 4X discs---all worked fine. Jeremy |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 76 Registered: Apr-04 | Update on DVD-2900/2200 mechanical problem: Well I've just been told by the German Denon dealer who I bought the DVD-2900 from, that the reason for the delayed replacement unit, is that Denon Germany is fixing a general problem with the DVD-2900, and are modifying all their stocked units. When I asked about details, I was told it was a mechanical problem. I would guess it has to do with the drive/transport mechanism, since it is related to all the issues people have had with the 2900 (and 2200). Vibration, problems reading CDs and DVDs etc. I don't know if the fix applies to the DVD-2200, but since it uses the same transport as the DVD-2900 I would think so. Lorenzo, have you heard anything about this? Could you maybe ask you Denon contacts? |
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rl Unregistered guest | I too have a denon 2200 and have experienced the vibrating problem with many CDs / DVDs. It is worst at the start of the CD and gets better after a few tracks. If I make a copy of the CD on my PC there is no problem. I have had various other CD and DVD players and have never experienced anything like this before. I am on to Denon UK who are trying to replicate the problem with their players, but no luck yet. |
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New member Username: AnnaPost Number: 6 Registered: May-04 | Hello: Why no people continue to discuss NAD T533? Is the quility of the T533 worse than Denon DVD-2200? Furthermore, how about the Pioneer DV-565A which has both DVD-A and SACD with quite cheap price similar to the NAD T533? Any comments and suggestion are very appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1383 Registered: Dec-03 | Anna, I have replied to your similar question on NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio. |
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Unregistered guest | I am on my second unit for the 2200. The first unit had issues with switching from CD to DVD. It would alter the colors on the DVD if I just took out an audio CD. I would have to turn the player off then turn it back on. I returned it to Magnolia and they gave me a brand new one. Now, this player can't play my wedding video smoothly (dvd+r). I can't skip through chapters without the unit freezing (irritating). The manager at Magnolia kept insisting it was the media type, burn method, etc. Since it was my second unit he wanted to send it in for service. He indicated it might possibly be an alignment issue. Also, he was going to have it for approx. 2 weeks and he needed my wedding video. This was not acceptable for me. After reading your guys posts I think I would rather excahnge the player or buy a cheapie to play the burnt dvd's. |
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Bronze Member Username: Kalda01Post Number: 32 Registered: May-04 | I just received a Denon DVD-2200 I bought on Ebay, and hooked it up initially to a HK setreo receiver using the 2 channel analog outputs. I tried to play back several SACD discs including Dark Side, and honestly I dont hear much difference when playing the same discs in CD mode. I am planning to hook it later to Yamaha RX596 in a multi-channel setup (still dont have cables for this hookup) and I am wondering if SACD will sound better then. Also when I played Deep Purple Live on BBC in SACD 2 channel mode, tracks 8-11 couldn't be played at all. In CD mode those tracks are fine. Is this a bad disc, or the Denon is at fault ?? |
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New member Username: SfichteFL US Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | Hi Guys, I'm new at this and I'm finding lots of great info here. I'm buying a new A/V system and can't decide which A/V amp would be THE machine. I need 3 zones and connect it to an HDTV. I have been looking at the NAD T773 and DENON AVR-3805. Which is better? For a DVD/CD - I'm leaning towards the SONY DVPCX-985V. I like the SONY 400 CD/DVD machine because I can store all my CD and DVD's SA-CD'd in it. I'm also ripping my own CD-R's (MP3) and movie DVD+R's with dvdx. To tie this together I'm considering JAMO E-610 series 5.1 speaker system. Anybody have any ideas? This will be my last and final sytem. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 876 Registered: Dec-03 | Siegfried Fichte i don't know which ones have 3 zones. between the the denon and the nad i would get the nad. and in my oppinion i would not bye a dvd player that did not play dvd-a/sacd/dvd's and regular cd's i know there are some universal players that are the "200-500 disk holders". i think pioneer makes one. |
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New member Username: SfichteFL US Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks Kegger, I don't know of any 3 zone A/V's either. Most newer A/V's can handle 2 zones. The Sony DVD/CD 985V can handle most CD/DVD formats except DVD-R/RW and A-DVD. Makes sense since Sony supports the SA-CD and DVD+R. |
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New member Username: MickjagPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | I just purchased a Denon-2200 and has not arrived as of yet . I have a DVD + burner !! Will the CD & DVDs I " burn" play in this Denon 2200 ? Wow !!..hope I did not screw up !? Thanks for your feed back. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 918 Registered: Dec-03 | sorry mick but probably not. but let us know when you get it. you could also try denon support and tell them the dvd's don't work and see if they offer a fix yet. |
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New member Username: MickjagPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | Thanks , by chance do you happen to know the denon support phone # ? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 937 Registered: Dec-03 | no i don't have it off hand. |
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