Cdt speakers
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 76 Registered: Oct-11 | I just recently purchased my CDT component speakers. And what I ordered from woofersect was the ES-620 model, but what they sent me was this ES-620x484. Can anybody tell me the difference between this two models and which is better? I don't know if I should ship it back and pay extra for shipping or keep this because I got a better deal. Thanks in advance |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1404 Registered: May-09 | Here are both and the 484 variant is more expensive, the 484 seems to refer to the passive crossover model, The tweeter is the same model and also the midbass. The model numbers I mean, the color is now black. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ES-620-CDT-AUDIO-EUROSPORT-6-5-2-WAY-COMPONENT-NEW-/1304 65886736?pt=Car_Speakers&hash=item1e605f7210&vxp=mtr http://www.ebay.com/itm/ES-620X484-CDT-AUDIO-6-5-COMPONENT-SPEAKER-SYSTEM-TWEETE RS-MIDS-CROSSOVERES-620-/130613215546 |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 77 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks joe. Will update you as soon as i installed the speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 78 Registered: Oct-11 | Hi Joe, I have another question regarding the passive x-over. It mentioned that its EX-484 4th order 24dB design. What does this mean? Since I'm running full active, does this mean I should cross my tweeter and mid-woofer at 24db? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1410 Registered: May-09 | Usually those are made with two second order filters connected in series which are 12 dB/octave each to get 24 dB/octave result, problem is there is a lot fast phase shifting which results in group delay, which gets in the way of SQ, going fully active with DSPs remains the best way, you should setup your slopes the way you like them best, is like tweeter placement you do it the way you like it best, of course if they are far from the midbass there will be a phase shift due to the speed of sound and that's why some people want them near the midbass..hmmm there is no absolute right and wrong.. there's what you like and what you don't. I just hope you get it right for you this time man.. that's tooooo much money. Pioneer just got out their first non stage 4 high end HU and is a beauty, take a look, really cheap street price (about $330)! http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/CD-Receivers/DEH-80PRS Best for the price I might switch! |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 79 Registered: Oct-11 | Just finished installing the speakers and it sounds really clear,natural and detailed. Mid/ woofer has really strong bass even running at 50 watts and the tweeters are really sweet. I'm really impress with this component speakers so far the best that I heard. I followed the x-over setting as what you advised sub 60hz, tweeter 2khz, rear 60hz and 500hz for the center channel. But since, I transfered my tweeter (slightly angled towards me) right on top of the woofer my sound stage went down a bit compared to the tweeters on the dash, What can you suggest I can do to bring up the sound stage? What frequency range I should play in the EQ? I'll try to angle my tweeters higher towards the dome light, hopefully this could help. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1420 Registered: May-09 | Glad you did like them Carlos, sure a number of tricks have been attempted to fool the ear, but, natural sound calls for rational equalization, crossovering, etc, I would still try locations and aiming to see what are the tradeoffs, since you have time alignment, you can regain focus if your midbass gets separated too much. And I will say that this is one of the reasons why home audio will always perform better. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 80 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, My last option would be pointing the tweeters higher and towards me because I already place a hole on the doors. But now, I realize why I need to put the tweeter close to the mid/woofer, they blend well and you get to hear the music details. I guess you just have to choose wether if its sound stage or sound quality. By the way that pioneer receiver is very tempting wish I could change my head unit. Maybe someday when my car gets older, but I think its getting there. Thanks again. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14632 Registered: Dec-03 | not at all. I have my tweeters and mids righgt next to each other in the kick panels, and my sound quality and staging are both fantastic, as is my sound stage. It's a matter of having the speakers aligned well, and knowing what you're doing. I hate having the tweeter in the dash, or A pillar close to me. it causes a variance in both time alignment and phasing, and throws off everything. If you want the speakers to sound ideal, put an amplifier on them instead of using a head unit to drive them. That makes a massive difference in how good they'll sound. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1421 Registered: May-09 | Right, you don't have to compromise in most cases, just pick the right locations and aiming, kick panels are a great location, I'm pretty sure I didn't find some prefabbed ones for your car when you first asked. You may check again: http://www.qlogicenclosures.com/ |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 81 Registered: Oct-11 | Glass wolf nice to here from other advices but I do have an amplifier.I use a punch P400-4 under power but sufficient for the component speakers. A stronger and a SQ amp will probably give details to the music but for now I have to stick with this. I angled the tweeter towards the dome light and it made a big difference. I was even surprise how a slight angling of the tweeters could make a huge difference. I was able to put up the sound stage a bit but not at eye level but it sounds beautiful now. Maybe the cdt enhancers would be another option. But how do I install the enhancers? Since Im not using the passive x-over of the cdt, instead Im running full active with the use of the JBL MS-8. Joe, I checked on that web site for kick panels but they don't have for my car. Would have been nice running a 3 way component speakers also. Putting the mids and the tweeter on the kick panels and the woofer on the door. Thanks |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14643 Registered: Dec-03 | Eh, don't think that just because an amplifier is rated at less RMS power than the continusous power handling of the speakers that the amp is therefore underpowered. Any dedicated amp on your separates is good. It's a big improvement as you must know already, over a head unit. Remember, power handling on speakers is just a measure of how much heat the coils can handle without actual, physical damage. It doesn't tell you what they need to reach peak output, etc.. also, amp power ratings, well, I can go on and on about how useless they are as well. In short, even at loud listening levels for music, you're really only using a couple hundred watts max, and that's including the subs which take the lion share of that power. Door speakers will be using closer to about 5 to 10 watts RMS at high volume. much less at lower volumes. There are a lot of tricks to soundstaging and imaging. waveguide use, phase plugs, speaker positioning, damping, etc.. anyway, if you want a primer on how to set up a good front stage in a car, check out: http://caraudio.glasswolf.net go to the speaker section if I recall, and read the articles on soundstage and imaging. I have several there, and the info within should help you a lot. A SQ system isn't so much about spending money. It's about how you implement what you have. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1428 Registered: May-09 | A SPL system can cost definitely more but Glasswolf your system should be worth new at least.... 3K? |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 82 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks guys, So you mean my amp is sufficient enough at 50 watts? But if I install the CDT Image enhancement system like http://www.woofersetc.com/p-3086-tw-24lp-cdt-audio-1-silk-dome-tweeter-lp-1-leve l-control-unit-image-enhancement.aspx . Would you recommend this? How can I install this if I'm running full active. Can I just tap it on the main tweeter wires? |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 83 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks guys, So you mean my amp is sufficient enough at 50 watts? But if I install the CDT Image enhancement system like http://www.woofersetc.com/p-3086-tw-24lp-cdt-audio-1-silk-dome-tweeter-lp-1-leve l-control-unit-image-enhancement.aspx . Would you recommend this? How can I install this if I'm running full active. Can I just tap it on the main tweeter wires? |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14649 Registered: Dec-03 | That device CDT shows is basically just a fancy L-Pad circuit. It allows signal attenuation to the tweeter without altering the phase or curve of the crossover itself. As for the cost of my system, if you're going by rretail pricing when the gear was brand new, and you count the charging system upgrades and the sound damping, the audio gear, etc, and don't count labor costs and things like the fiberglass work for the sub enclosure and kick pods and amp racks etc, you're looking at around $7,000 in hardware. The amps were $1600 each, head unit was $1200, alternator was about $750, DynAudio front stage was $1200, 1/0 power wire is about $2.50-4.00/foot, and so forth. It adds up very quickly. I don't even want to think about what the labor costs would be worth. Oh, I was also counting the alarm system in there, but not teh labor to put it in. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 84 Registered: Oct-11 | Wow! That, I cannot afford but it would be nice or exprience to listen to a true SQ set-up. Just to atleast experience how it should sound like and not just reading about it, try to follow and to try to impliment it. Wish they are people like you guys here who could teach people like me about car audio. So what do you think about this image enhancers? Is this worth buying? And in case I buy this item, how do you suggest I could wire it with my main tweeters. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1430 Registered: May-09 | Carlos you are fully active now, you can control the output level of your tweeters directly from the MS-8, no point either in placing tweeters all over the place IMO. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14651 Registered: Dec-03 | very true. keep it simple. the more speakers, and devices you introduce to the system, the more opportunities you introduce for problems ranging from phase issues, to beaming and point sourcing problems. This is especially true when you start adding "tweeters" to a system instead of just using a good, straight forward component set. In regards to my setup, a very nearly similar system could be done much more cheaply. I was just responding to the question about what my personal setup would cost (ie, insured value) In the case of a cheaper version of my system, it'd look more like this maybe: Alpine or Pioneer head unit $200-300 2 channel class A/B amplifier $150-300 mono class D sub amplifier $200-300 15" subwoofer $200-300 2-way comp set $150-300 -or- 3-way comp set $400-600 going 2 or 3 way for the front stage is personal preference, budget, and space available for speaker positioning. I just went 3-way because I wanted the 8" mid-bass driver to cover the frequencies between the 15" sub, and the midrange speakers in front. A 6" speaker can go down to about 120Hz before you run into issues with thermal compression at high output, and natural roll-off. A 15" sub should be crossed over around 50-60Hz with a steep Q or slope so it drops off quickly beyond that frequency. The problem that leaves is the big gap between the two crossover points. a mid-bass driver is the answer to that, allowing you to cross over the midrange higher up around 250Hz, thus not overworking the driver. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 85 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, I was hoping to hear that at least it would save more $$$. But will increasing or lowering the output level of the tweeters will improve the sound stage? Here is a picture of how I mounted the tweeters. Tweeters are angled toward the dome light. Would you have any suggestions regarding x-over cut off now that my tweeter is right above the mid/woofer.  Wolfglass I read some of your write ups. Great article and very informative. Please advice. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 86 Registered: Oct-11 | Sorry glasswolf |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 87 Registered: Oct-11 | Just an update on what I have now: Car: 2011 Ford fiesta 1. Stock head unit 2. JBL MS-8 3. RF Punch P400-4 4. CDT ES-620x484 front speaker 5. Boston coaxial SE6.5 rear speakers 6. Jensen JCCSPK center channel 7. Bazooka tube 6.5 amplified sub BTA6100 |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1435 Registered: May-09 | Carlos you can edit your posts within one hour. There is a little icon on the upper right corner of each post to do that. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 88 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, but its to late now. Really sorry about that Glasswolf. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14654 Registered: Dec-03 | no big deal. the ability to attenuate the tweeter helps a lot when you have it mounted away from the midrange, since having the tweeter in the A-pillar for example, puts it much closer to your head, which could cause issues if it's getting the same power as the mid, along with phase issues, etc. this is why we have adjustments for time alignment and phase with an active system. as for XO points, I'd probably start out with something like the tweeter on a 12dB Q 2.4KHz HPF, midrange 12dB Q 150Hz HPF and 1.5KHz to 1.8KHz range LPF, letting the roll off of each XO point fill the gap between mid and tweeter. Set the sub to about 60Hz, 18dB Q LPF. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 89 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks for the recommendations, I will try this right away. I hope this could improve my sound stage a bit improve SQ. My problem with the MS-8 would be setting the 1.5 or the 1.8 khz cut off between the mids and the tweeter. But I will be able to adjust the Q slope to your recommendations. For the cut off its up to the MS-8 to fill in the gaps. Would you recommend using a center speaker? Would it affect the SQ of my component speakers? This center speakers are very cheap and I'm worried it could distort the sound. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1436 Registered: May-09 | ..... switch the center speaker on and off to see.. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14658 Registered: Dec-03 | I personally don;t like multi-channel for music (using a center channel, etc) but it's personal taste I suppose. I'd stick to straight stereo, myself. With the MS8, when you run fully active, the tweeter should have a high-pass filter, the mid should be a bandpass filter (both a high and low pass combined to cut freqs that the subs, and tweeters will handle instead) and the sub will have a low pass filter, and perhaps a subsonic filter if the box for the sub is ported or bandpass. you should be able to adjust both high and low pass frequencies in addition to the slopes when running fully active, for the midrange. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 90 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks for the input guys. Will try to turn off the center channel and see what sounds better. Glasswolf, I tried your XO recommendations and it did help improve my sound stage. Almost the same advice Joe gave me, only that I followed the MS-8 recommendations for the Q which was all 24db. Which made the sound distinct and you could really tell the frequencies coming from the tweeters and the midrange. But with the 18 and 12db slope it made the sound smoother and harder to tell where the music is coming from. Vocals are in the center of the dash and instruments are clear, well distributed on the dash and easy to locate. Here is what it did with the MS-8 settings: Sub- subsonic filter at 35hz Q12db Sub/Front XO- 60hz Q18db Front Lo/Hi XO- 2400hz Q12db ( I have no means of cutting off at 1.5 or 1.8khz with the MS-8, I as sume it will manage to make the frequencies meet). Center- 450hz Q12db Side Speakers- 60hz Q12db |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14659 Registered: Dec-03 | yeah, I typically use a 12dB slope for mids/tweeters. you want that smoother roll off so they blend better. The sharper slopes are for subs. You don't want those to sound muddy by getting more sound above the cutoff, so you use an 18 or 24dB slope on subs, and typically on the subsonic filter, too. The subsonic should be set to cut off just below the tuned frequency of your sub box's ports, if the box is ported. If it's sealed, the subsonic filter is unneeded. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 91 Registered: Oct-11 | My sub is an amplified bazooka tube and I assume it has its built in passive XO and ported. In its manual it has a 39hz cutoff but did not mention about the Q. So should I set my subsonic filter to 39hz and not 35hz? I made it 35hz because I was thinking of making the built in passive XO do its job and maximize the potential of the sub using its factory settings. But with the 18db Q setting on the MS-8 being at median at least I'm sure its Q is at 18db even if its factory passive XO is set at 12db which will give me a better slope. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1441 Registered: May-09 | Those actually have an active hi-pass filter designed in their custom amp, the main goal is avoid overexcursion and reduce power consumption, not that much seeking an effect on sound. Of course you could set a higher lo-cut or increase the slope but I don't think there's a benefit on doing any of that. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 92 Registered: Oct-11 | Really? But the sound changes when I change slopes and frequencies on the MS-8. I really have to learn a lot more about this stuffs, gets addicting and frustrating sometimes. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1442 Registered: May-09 | Subsonic filtering is done for protection of the subwoofer and to reduce power consumption. I think the manufacturer had set their cutoff frequency and slope in a way that will maximize extension while protecting the unit. Any changes to the filtering will result in a reduction of bass extension, if you like the effect, that's nice (most likely means you don't like bass - at least as played by the bass tube). And there is a "sickness" called audiophilia beware of it , some people end up spending hundred of thousands and never finding the perfect sound. Take the test here: http://www.audiophilia.com/features/aptest.htm |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14662 Registered: Dec-03 | don't use both the built-in XO and the one on the MS8 to do the same thing, or set at the same points. the effect is cumulative, and will cause problems for you. Just use what the SAS has built-in. When you have the time and money, give some thought to getting rid of it and getting an actual sub in a box, tuned to a better ported frequency like 28-31Hz instead of 40-45Hz like that tube is. You're losing a lot of your bottom octave because of that tube's design. Anyway, that aside, just use what the tube has. don't use it in combination with the MS8. try to avoid combining two crossovers for the same function. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 93 Registered: Oct-11 | Would their be a way to disconnect the passive XO of the Bass tube and run it using the MS-8 XO? What would be a good sub that will not require to much space, wattage, let say 200 watts and a good value for $$$? Please give recommendations. Thanks! |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 94 Registered: Oct-11 | What would be a good size for my car? I was thinking of a single sealed 10 inch sub. To lessen my expenses I am planning of removing my rear speakers from the 3 and 4ch of the amplifier and let the built-in amplifier of the MS-8 power them (rear speakers). And bridge the Punch P400-4 3 and 4 channel (200 watts) to power a single sub. What do you guys think? Are shallow mount subs any good? Please recommened: price range for a SQ sub max $200 cheaper the better. Here are subs that I'm looking at: 1. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_26533_DLS-KW10.html 2. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_21929_Kicker-C104-10C104.html 3. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_10215_Boston-Acoustics-G110-4.html 4. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_11097_Pioneer-Shallow-Mount-TS-SW251.html |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1443 Registered: May-09 | This is a jewel SQ subwoofer: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-656 You can also look at the Fi SSD 10", ID Q 10" For a cheap SQ sub look for the SSA DCON At the bottom of the list you could even get the JL Audio 10w1v2. All below the 200 mark except the ID. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 95 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, I think I'd settle for the SSA DCON for the price and the reviews. Will Just have to find a sellers that ships to my country or to an APO address. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 96 Registered: Oct-11 | Joe, please give me recommendations for an 8 inch sub. Really sorry to bother but I want to make sure I'm buying the right equiptment. It's costing me even more trying to buy stuffs I don't really understand. Thanks in advance. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14664 Registered: Dec-03 | Personally, I'd go with an Alpine Type R subwoofer, in a ported enclosure. Use a class-D amplifier to drive it, in the 400-500 watt RMS range bridge your 4 channel amp to give more power to your front speakers. your front stage will be much crisper, rear speakers aren't really needed, and if you want them, don't need much power, and the sub will do far better on a class D amp that draws much less current and has more output to keep the sub sharp and clean. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 97 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Glasswolf. But what size of woofer would be good for a small car 8 or 10 inches for SQ? |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 98 Registered: Oct-11 | I assume I'll be getting a 2 ohm sub. What do you think of this amplifier?https://www.woofersetc.com/c-27-one-channel.aspx?manufacturerid=61&pag enum=2 |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1444 Registered: May-09 | I would recommend no less than a 10" driver for a SQ alignment. Alpines will definitely need a separate amp, I wouldn't say that are specifically aimed at SQ applications, are in the JL Audio W3 class IMO but for louder harder hitting applications, their peak to RMS ratio is very high. Anyway if going for a ported box tune rather low, you are looking for low or zero dB box gain on SQ applications. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 99 Registered: Oct-11 | Joe, If I can get away from buying an amp and power the sub from my excisting 200 watts. Which would be the best sub to match my system? 1. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_19849_Image-Dynamics-IDQ10-V.3-D2.html Note: Requires 500RMS which I don't have and has the biggest enclosure. Unless I get the lower model which is the Image Dynamics ID10 D4 V.3 2. SSA DCON - hard to find and they don't ship to the philippines 3. JL Audio 10w1v2 4. https://www.woofersetc.com/p-7101-mm1040-polk-audio-10-4-ohm-shallow-mount-subwo ofer.aspx |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1445 Registered: May-09 | No shallow mount subs IMO. I would go for any of the subs I recommended above and I guess in the order I listed them. Without a doubt the TC sounds will be the cleanest sounding of those. It's a shame the DCON is not being sold right now for some reason, maybe a GCON but will probably need a separate amp as well. With your amp a 4 ohm bridged load is what is necessary so 4 ohm SVC and 2 ohm DVC are candidates. The 10w1v2 is pretty clean sounding sub even if it is at the bottom of the list, It will get loud and low enough on the amp power you have due to higher sensitivity AND the higher cabin gain small vehicles have. JL Audio subs Now shipping a sub is rather expensive so I would go for an expensive sub since the shipping cost is proportional to weight. I guess that you should take a look at what is available locally? |
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Bronze Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 100 Registered: Oct-11 | The TC looks really nice but if I get the TC, will 200 watts be sufficient to power the sub? It mentioned 500 watts RMS. The other problem would be the size of the box. Vas means the enclosure of the box, am I right right? It requires 1.75 cu.ft. that would probably occupy the whole baggage compartment of the car. I emailed SSA and they told me they don't have the DCON's available yet because they are still waiting for the magnets to arrive. Good news they can ship to an APO address. What is a better enclosure for a sub for SQ? Sealed or ported? And which do you follow for the enclosure the minimum or the maximum enclosure size? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1446 Registered: May-09 | I will have to check but about 1.1-1.2 cu.ft.@30Hz net seems good for an Epic 10" ported and maybe 0.7 sealed, and no, the thermal limit of 500W does not mean a 200 amp can't drive it, it means that extra power capability will be unused. Sub/enclosure efficiency does not depend on the sub rated power. Well designed ported can be better than sealed balancing benefits and drawbacks of each. Sealed will have better transient response ported better low freqiency extension. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 101 Registered: Oct-11 | Ok. If you say the TC is best and my amp will be enough to power the sub I'll try to save up for it. Can't decide which box is better for SQ, seems both have their disadvantages. What would you suggest? I want a more natural and realistic sound. Thanks for the patience. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1447 Registered: May-09 | What would be the max dimensions for a box you can (or be willing to) fit? Some times is that easy to know what sub/box type is best for you. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 102 Registered: Oct-11 | 1.2 cu.ft. I can but if possible to be smaller the better. But I'm not sure with the enclosure recommendation of the TC. In their website it also did not mention anything if the sub can be in a sealed, ported or free air only parameters that I do not even understand. All I know that the enclosure is very important and it can make the best sub sound bad when not done properly. The TC is a 2ohm DVC, so I guess I series them to get a 4ohm load and bridge to the amplifier so I could get the 200watts at 4ohm. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On the SSA website they have pre designed enclosures for sealed and ported applications. Maybe I could follow for the TC sub, that is if they have the same enclosure recommendations. http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/index.php/product-information/dcon.html |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1448 Registered: May-09 | Most of the times enclosures are not interchangeable since the driver displacement is different and proper port area depends on the xmax of the driver (among other things), the sample enclosure they give is 25 x 14.5 x 12.5, that may or not fit your car. the TC has an EBP around 70 which allows for use in either sealed or ported enclosures. Some drivers are specifically designed for ported, others for sealed so one has to be aware of this when buying. If you can get a DCON it would also be very nice and cheaper. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 103 Registered: Oct-11 | How about the IQ 10 instead? |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 104 Registered: Oct-11 | I checked on the ID website and it mentioned that the ID Q10 has a rating of min. 200 and 1000 max power. http://www.imagedynamicsusa.net/index.php/products/idq/idq-10 I guess my amp will be ok with this. So what do you think? Or I just wait for the DCON? But If you really think about it the most ideal for my amp would be the JL's and it has the smallest enclosure. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1449 Registered: May-09 | I believe those are primarily for use with sealed, these type of drivers will typically require a larger than average ported enclosure size. The Fi SSD I believe is for ported enclosures, some Fi drivers can be ordered to be customized for use with sealed. EBP = Fs / Qes Below 50 for sealed use above 99 for ported use, there are exceptions to this rule. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1450 Registered: May-09 | the IDQ being so expensive and requiring high ported box volume it would not be my first choice, I would go for the cheaper TC. Not to say is a bad driver though. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 105 Registered: Oct-11 | You mean the TC are primarily used for sealed enclosure? I like sealed its smaller than ported boxes. How big will be the enclosure? |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 106 Registered: Oct-11 | How about the epic 8? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1451 Registered: May-09 | No the IDQ is for sealed, 8"s that get loud enough do so through box gain and high power since have very low cone surface area, I wouldn't recommend. (I am well aware of it's existance). |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 107 Registered: Oct-11 | Ok, tc 10" it is. Please check out this forum. They mentioned a sealed .62 enclosure and can go as small as .2ft^3 .What is a QTC? http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?/topic/263-epic-10-sealed-box-size/page __hl__epic%2010__fromsearch__1 http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?/topic/96-space-for-epic-10/page__hl__epic%2010__fromsearch__1 Please give me the go signal if I should get the TC and I will buy it right away to end all my questions. Thanks Joe |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1452 Registered: May-09 | the TC 10 ported vs sealed (ported in green)  Sealed is almost a no go, QTC is the system Q for sealed and determines how much response peaks, with 0,707 response is flat in the plot. But check this I tweak the ported box a bit and gain an extension of almost 5 Hz:  |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 108 Registered: Oct-11 | Could you help me with the design, dimensions and whats the inside of the box? Should I get it now? I'm just making sure I get the right sub, Sorry |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1453 Registered: May-09 | The best way to know what to do is with the dims of the "trunk" and letting me know how much of it you need unused. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 109 Registered: Oct-11 | Here is the specs of the trunk: 36"L x 16"H x 20"D I'm willing to spare half of it or a bit more, but of course if it can be smaller the better. Here is an enclosure from JL http://www.jlaudio.com/10w1v2-4-car-audio-w1v2-subwoofer-drivers-92072. Maybe you can revise this to your recommended specs. Really, really thank you Joe. What do you think of this sub? I can get this locally but I find the frequency to high 42Hz to 500Hz. http://www.al-eds.com/Focal-P25DB-p24735.html |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1455 Registered: May-09 | OK Carlos that sub is pretty expensive for what it is, the bottom end line from Focal and as you noted not a top choice to get the lower notes, still have to model the subs with cabin gain effects the TC would take worst case 12Hx31.5Wx11D (ported) but probably I may shrink it down once I see the cabin gain LF extension, or you may want to try it sealed. I will do this when I have some more time. The box is bigger as the driver itself is bigger and needs greater port area, just compare the Xmax with that of the 10w1v2. will get back to you later about this. If you would like me to compare some other worthy subs let me know, probably I would bring in some subs from AA and soundsplinter if the price is right which I doubt. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 110 Registered: Oct-11 | I'm open with any sub you recommend for me as long as its with in my budget. I really have very know -how and experience when it comes to this. So I'm hoping you could help me find a worthy sub for the price. Woofersect recommended this sub https://www.woofersetc.com/p-4993-id10-v3-d4-image-dynamics-10-dual-4-ohm-v3-sub woofer.aspx |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14666 Registered: Dec-03 | Fi Audio Q or SSD series subs. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 111 Registered: Oct-11 | Who sells Fi cant find it in the web? Someone is selling here in the Philippines but is way over my budget. $500.00 |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1456 Registered: May-09 | Are sold by the manufacturer: https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154f32b80525918/s hopdata/0050_Speakers/0040_SSD/product_overview.shopscript The Q is more expensive and handles even more power, sensitivity on these subs is lower so I guess I wouldn't recommend them on low power. At 86.6 the DCON will play loudest on small power and will work in 1 cubic feet, they already provide a box design for it and is really inexpensive. All of these subs are great, I just think that the DCON is the most appropriate if you want to stay on low power. My second choice would be the TC which likely will have the best SQ. For cheap the 10W1v2. The low end ID10, well I have not heard great things about them so not sure what to say. So get the one you like best, they will all fit. if you go for the TC I will give a box spec that likely will be 1.2cu.ft@30Hz. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 112 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks again Joe. I'll just wait for the DCON since its the most appropriate for me. They say it will be available next month. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 113 Registered: Oct-11 | Joe, I think I'll just get the TC (15-150Hz frequency response) and go for SQ. As you mentioned in your previous post, the enclosure for the TC would be 12Hx31.5Wx11D (ported) worst case which is not so bad. But, I need to ask a big favor from you. Can you help me with the box spec for the TC? I will purchase the sub right away if I have the specs, otherwise this sub will be useless with me. Thanks again. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 114 Registered: Oct-11 | Just talked to the tech support of parts express. And he recommends a sealed box for the TC (he mentioned that the TC shines on a sealed box). Any size of enclosure from .6 to 1 cu.ft. will be fine but he mentioned the bigger the box is more efficient. So I was thinking of a .9 sealed box, what do you think? |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14667 Registered: Dec-03 | Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP) EBP = Fs / Qes 50 or less = best used in a sealed enclosure. 50 - 90 = flexible enclosure options. 90 or greater = best used in ported enclosure. -OR- Qts < 0.30 - ported Qts = 0.30 - 0.50, use ported or sealed. Qts > 0.50 sealed |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1457 Registered: May-09 | The TC has an EBP of about 70 and therefore is a versatile driver, so you may place it in sealed in a biggish enclosure for better efficiency. Factor in that sellers will always tell you what you want to hear, but this is a non issue as you can always change enclosures. Ported can sound perfect as long as you keep group delay low. I say that if you are willing to spend the extra cash, you will be fine with it. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 115 Registered: Oct-11 | Joe, please help me with the specs for the ported box? I could make the box, that's no problem. But I never had the experience or knowledge of how to compute port holes and finding/ tuning frequency for a sub. Thanks guys. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1458 Registered: May-09 | Probably will not be feasible in your case but I will look into fitting a flared aero port such as this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=268-352&utm_source=Bazaa rvoiceps So clean sounding, if not feasible then a slot port. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 116 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks so so much Joe. Just let me know if I should order the sub and the flared aero port and the size of the port. Thanks again. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 117 Registered: Oct-11 | What do you thimk of this sub? http://www.directron.com/d3102.html?gsear=1 |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 118 Registered: Oct-11 | Hi Joe, I did some research with the TC sub and I ended with this enclosure. Please correct me If what I did is wrong. Qts = 0.31 Vas = 1.75 cu.ft. Fs= 24.3 Hz Xmax = 22.9 Vb = 0.911 F3 = 32.56 Fb = 29.28 Vd = .76257 Box external dimension: 20"(w) x 14"(H) x 8.30738(L) Internal dimension: 18.5 x 12.5 x 6.80738 cubic inches 6.80738/ 1728= .91099921 cubic feet Port diameter: 2 inches Port length: 9.38 I dont know how would this look if you graph it. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1459 Registered: May-09 | The sub is a budget line of a company that has done great products in the past but it seems that some of their new stuff is only ok, much like MB Quart, still does ok products but the high end stuff that made their name years back is not here anymore. The spec of that box seem not ok (the 0.9 cu.ft you list is the gross volume not the net (Vb) ), apart from lack of time, I really couldn't find a reliable driver displacement figure, it should be 0.08 to maybe 0.1 cubic feet, I will try to find it or estimate it later today. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 119 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, I'm trying to figure out how this WinISD works. So far I'm getting a headache, still having problems understanding and don't even know if what I'm doing is right. Thanks again for helping out. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 120 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, I'm trying to figure out how this WinISD works. So far I'm getting a headache, still having problems understanding and don't even know if what I'm doing is right. Thanks again for helping out. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1460 Registered: May-09 | Ok Carlos so take a look at 0.8cu.ft@30Hz added cabin gain +3dB@50Hz -12dB/octave slope (I bet it will be more in a small car):  You see some box gain around 30Hz but will not be peaky, it achieves a peak 16ms group delay which is not really noticeable which will make it sound very much like a sealed enclosure but with better extension. A larger enclosure will make it more efficient but it will peak harder if you were to consider a large box maybe a sealed would give better results. The final dimensions of the box cannot be calculated without the driver displacement, small boxes are affected a lot by the driver displacement so you may have to call TC for it or measure the driver dimensions yourself so that I can estimate it. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 121 Registered: Oct-11 | Just tried calling TC but I think they 're already close, will give them a call later tonight for the driver's displacement. How big of a sealed box is needed? I would consider a sealed box, it will be easier for me to make as long as it gives better results. Whatever you tell me Joe, i'll follow. This is your expertise and I'm new to this. Thanks for the time and effort. Please check out this forum http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?/topic/96-space-for-epic-10/ they mentioned about displacement and they say its 127cu.inches for the actual driver. They also mentioned that is only needs 0.5 to 1 inches of room between the t-yoke and the back wall. Copied this on the forum: It's got a pretty low Q and its small, so it really won't need much volume sealed or ported. Sealed: I would say anywhere from 0.5 to 0.75 cubic feet, but anything past 1 won't make any difference. You'll need a little bass boost to bring up the low end. Here are the standard alignments: green line is 1.1 @ 24Hz pink is .57 @ 30Hz orange is .58 @ 27Hz If you want a high Q or peaky response, you can increase eh box size a little. I tried to copy the graph on the forum but it cant post here. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1461 Registered: May-09 | Well the plots shown don't account for cabin gain, here is a comparison of a ported 0.8@30 vs sealed 0.9 (orange).  Ported will still be more efficient and increasing the sealed volume will not help as noted before. Here is a 0.8@30 vs 1.1@24 (yellow)  The 1.1@24 dips gain in the audible region and wastes a lot in the subsonic region, likely not loud to the ear. I would love to have a bunch of people giving opinions but as far as I can see 0.8@30 seems good on this case. And I would agree that the driver displacement is in the 0.07 - 0.1 region but if by any chance you can come up with the correct figure it will be a bit better, if not if you were to get this driver doing some measurements on it will work as well. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 122 Registered: Oct-11 | I agree 0.8@30 looks good, a little tweaking on the eq, will make it ideal. Emailed tech support for the displacement and this is their response. The displacement of the woofer is .08 cubic feet and the dimensions are listed in the manual below: http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/293-656m.pdf Hope this will help in estimating the driver for the enclosure. Joe, will you be able to give me the dimensions of the enclosure? I would understand if you would charge me for a fee for all the efforts you put in. I just hope i could afford your expertise, Wish they have a box for their sub for their customers to just follow. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1464 Registered: May-09 | Hi Carlos I was wondering about your building capabilities, meaning tools you have access to or the capabilities of someone that can help you or whatever. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 123 Registered: Oct-11 | Hi Joe. I hope, I did not offend you. I was concern maybe because, I was getting to be too bothersome and annoying to you. And you have been helpful all thru out process, practically did the whole set-up for me. Thanks so much. And yes, I have all the tools for building the box , also have someone to help me. All I need are the specs of the box so I could order the sub and while waiting for the sub to arrive I could start making the enclosure. Been trying to do some calculations using the Hi-fi speaker designs http://www.mh-audio.nl/ReflexBoxCalculator.asp but seems the port is to big and to long. Tried Vb=0.96 down to Vb=0.78 with ok response I'm but not sure if I'm doing it right and which is the best to use. But so far Vb= 0.80 and 0.85 seems are happy mediums. This are the specs for the speaker I ended up. Note: I am not sure if what I'm doing is right. Speaker cone dia.= 306.43cm Fs= 24.3 Qms=7.50 Qes= 0.33 Qts= 0.316 Vas= 1.75 liters Vdr= 2.08115 liters Vb= 0.96 ( tried going down till 0.78 with Ok graphs) Dp= 2.08115 But still don't know if what I'm doing is right or wrong. Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 124 Registered: Oct-11 | Hi Joe. I hope, I did not offend you. I was concern maybe because, I was getting to be too bothersome and annoying to you. And you have been helpful all thru out process, practically did the whole set-up for me. Thanks so much. And yes, I have all the tools for building the box , also have someone to help me. All I need are the specs of the box so I could order the sub and while waiting for the sub to arrive I could start making the enclosure. Been trying to do some calculations using the Hi-fi speaker designs http://www.mh-audio.nl/ReflexBoxCalculator.asp but seems the port is to big and to long. Tried Vb=0.96 down to Vb=0.78 with ok response I'm but not sure if I'm doing it right and which is the best to use. But so far Vb= 0.80 and 0.85 seems are happy mediums. This are the specs for the speaker I ended up. Note: I am not sure if what I'm doing is right. Speaker cone dia.= 306.43cm Fs= 24.3 Qms=7.50 Qes= 0.33 Qts= 0.316 Vas= 1.75 liters Vdr= 2.08115 liters Vb= 0.96 ( tried going down till 0.78 with Ok graphs) Dp= 2.08115 But still don't know if what I'm doing is right or wrong. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1465 Registered: May-09 | Actually I wasn't able to post, "software error" like for a day. This is a preliminar suggestion adequate for someone that has the simplest tools, if you are able to cut angles I would suggest port turn optimizations (which improve sound quality and output), but you get a general idea: This ended up at 0.825@30.3Hz in car response is basically the same as above:  A double turn slot port, necessary in situations like this (as you noted):  This is a vent airspeed plot it shows 19 m/s peak airspeed at rated power which is adequate and won't be noisy.  This is a group delay plot, shows a peak of 16ms which is nice, performing more like a sealed enclosure would do.  And those peaks occur at near subsonic frequencies so better yet, notice that if you don't have access to 3/4" wood then I will issue a metric version, I believe the nearest metric thickness 18 millimeters. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 125 Registered: Oct-11 | Wow! Thanks so much! This box I can do. I can also cut angles so maybe if you have time, could you send me recommendations for the port optimization specs? It would be really great! But if its too much of a hassle, I'm super happy with this. I will be using a 3/4" MDF board. And one more thing, I think you forgot to include the specs for the height of the port. Thanks a million! Really appreciate the time and effort, plus it comes with a graph. I will buy the sub now. Thank you so much again. It makes me want to cry of gratefulness. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 126 Registered: Oct-11 | Got the specs for the port height, using a 3/4" board and an 11" enclosure height it will be 9.5 inches. Thanks again. |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 130 Registered: Jul-10 | height of the port is 9 1/2" |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 131 Registered: Jul-10 | cool, you figured it out... |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1469 Registered: May-09 | Shopvac how's it going! |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1470 Registered: May-09 | Carlos, right I didn't show the height of the port since it was getting crowded. here is one simple way to optimize a port turn:  The width at the corner must never be narrower than the rest of the port width. If you need a cut sheet list I can get that to you, and right the height of the port is 9 1/2". |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 127 Registered: Oct-11 | But wont this affect the volume of the enclosure? Yes, I can do this and I'm excited to start with the project. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1471 Registered: May-09 | Say I do four of these corners of 0.75 wood to optimize the port corners, well, 2 will be in the port airspace so their displacement is =0, the other two are 0.003 cubic feet each so 0.006 total so 0.825 - 0.006 = 0.819. No effect. Also notice the rounding of the inner wall of the port at the corner, that's actually important. |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 133 Registered: Jul-10 | Hey Joe I am good sir, and hope all is good with you. Havent worked on my build as yet, been so busy at work with alot of unexpected turn of events. Carlos, you are in good hands, Joe is an awesome guy who know his stuff, he taught and helped me a lot. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 128 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks Joe, I have no words to say, but thank you so so much. You have been so helpful and patient with me. How I wish I could return the favor for all the time and effort. Thanks again. In case you might consider my country as one of your vacation destination, please let know. Shopvac, Thanks! Joe has been very helpful and I trust him so much, that I would not put anything in my car without his permission. I had consulted him ever since I became a member of ecoustics and not once that he put me down or ignored a question. His like the preacher of car audio. Thanks again Joe. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1474 Registered: May-09 | Shopvac glad you are ok, critters are going to eat up that sub before you listen to it ..lol.. nevermind I have a lot of stuff delayed as well due to lack of time and else. Carlos don't have to thank me I really like audio projects, and SQ projects more so.. And in audio never believe anyone but your ears, there are these SPL guys who setup their subs to spike over a 5 hertz or so bandwidth and they love it. And maybe you will hate my recommendations when you hear them.. On the box here are one way to perform common port optimizations:  Need not to do everything exactly just some ideas on how to help get smooth airflow. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 129 Registered: Oct-11 | I think I am more of a SQ person, I don't even turn up half of the volume of my head unit. I just enjoy listening to the details of the song and sometimes hearing things that I have not even heard before. I'm so sure I will like your recommendations. If not, I should learn to like it because thats is how the music should sound. Thank you. The TC epic 10" is on its way and I already have the cut outs for the enclosure. Will try to assemble later if I have the time, needs to concentrate with work now. Another question? Will it be Ok to paint (auto finish) the enclosure? I'm a bit worried with the MDF because it easily chips-off. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1477 Registered: May-09 | Ok Carlos a few answers and notes: 1) Some materials can have in bandwith resonances, frequently used box building materials are MDF or birch wood. 2) you should use high quality wood glue to join the parts along with MDF screws. 3) cuts should be perfect to avoid leaking which leads to performance failure, frequently silicone caulk is used as a sealant, if using that allow the enclosure 4 days on open air before mounting the sub. 4) remember to do some port optimizations, at least rounding a bit all the corners inside and on the ends of the duct. Regarding finishing usually painting is not used, either is left as is rounding the edges with a sanding machine or carpeting, infrequently other finishing is used, Glasswolf has done some veneering on boxes if I remember right. I think carpeting is an easy way to go. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 130 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks again joe, just finished building the box. I did use an MDF board for the enclosure. Tried to cut as straight as possible, glued them with marine epoxy and sealed the cut areas with construction silicone sealant. I think I did well with the enclosure but not as perfect as I wanted it to be. Now I just have to wait for the sub to arrive. Exciting! For the mean time its my R2D2 that follows me around the house. Got a carpet for the box but still figuring out how the best way to cover it. Tomorrow will do some sanding to even out and round the edges of the box. Here are pictures of the enclosure. Need to find a jigsaw to make a hole for the subwoofer:   |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 131 Registered: Oct-11 | Here is the top view of the enclosure: |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1482 Registered: May-09 | Ok Carlos I see you have some woodworking skills (or you know someone who does), the pic does not let me see clear but the port width must be preserved on the turns, if you are sure of that you are ok and you glued with that epoxy, don't know what the outcome will be but I guess it will be ok. It's a great job you did with all optimizations in place, let at least 4 day of open ventilation (after you perform the cutout) before you place the sub in, guess it will need a few days to arrive. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 132 Registered: Oct-11 | I did the box myself and my very first box to make, thank you. Port width is the same on the turns but if there will be imperfections it will be very small. At first it made my heart jump for awhile thinking the diameter of the sub would stick out of the enclosure, but its just right, box height was 11 inches and the diameter of the sub is 10.97 inches. How do I seal the side of the subwoofer to the enclosure, should I silicone seal it also? Joe, since you set up the enclosure at 30.3Hz does this mean my subsonic filter should be set at 30.3hz also? With this new sub should I still retain the 60hz as my cross-over point? Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1484 Registered: May-09 | You are ok then Carlos, the quality of the cutout itself is your best bet against leakage, the sub itself has a ring for sealing, you have to center the cutout perfectly and maybe cut it a tad short and then sand it to a perfect fit, since you went for the sandwich assembly style, you should be aware not to hit any screws that the jigsaw may find in it's way. And no you have useful output below tuning frequency, best way is to look at a excusion plot but Id say 25Hz is about right, and in your case will mostly help the amp to run cool. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 133 Registered: Oct-11 | Ok, so no need to put sealant on the sub. And thanks, that I really made sure that the jigsaw will not hit any screws in its path. Later will cut out the area for the sub and for the speaker wire terminal. I will place the speaker wire terminal at the left side of the speaker box in your diagram. Just before the air enters the port whole.Is this is Ok? Can't find a better place to put it. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1487 Registered: May-09 | Guess there is no problem just find a small terminal plate, you may opt for a direct connect from the bottom for example, no big issue unless you do something really crazy.. Try to do a nice tight sub cutout many times people get leaks there, bad deal for a ported design and a killer for a bandpass enclosures. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 134 Registered: Oct-11 | Ok, Did my carpeting yesterday so far it turned out nice with some small errors but can be hidden in the carpet. Now I'm just waiting for the sub to arrive. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1492 Registered: May-09 | Great Carlos so will wait and see if it makes a difference on your setup. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 135 Registered: Oct-11 | Hi Joe, I'm still waiting for the sub. But I'm thinking of getting another amp but will just stick with rockford fosgate to pair with my other amp. What would you think I should get? I'm thinking of another 4 channel amp, like the P500-4 or the T400-4. This will power the sub and the cdt mid/woofer and my old P400-4 will power the cdt tweeters and the rear speakers. What do you think will be best for my needs? Or just get a class D amp to drive the sub and retain my old set-up? If I add another amp must I need to put a capacitor? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1504 Registered: May-09 | I'm guessing you need nothing right now but to get to listen to your system with the sub and take it from there IMO of course, if you found that you need more output then a sub amp would be the way I would upgrade, that will sound cleaner, also I prefer class AB amps for SQ, at 400-500 watt Class D will not save you much power and arguably class AB will sound cleaner. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 136 Registered: Oct-11 | That is so nice to hear, well I guess I just have to wait for the sub. Should I retain the 60hz x-over with the new sub? |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 137 Registered: Oct-11 | That is so nice to hear, well I guess I just have to wait for the sub. Should I retain the 60hz x-over with the new sub? In case I get an amp (P500-2 or T400-2) for the sub can I bridge the P400-4 to drive the CDT mid/woofer (200 watts/channel) and make the built-in amp of the MS-8 power the CDT tweeter and the rear speakers? Or, vice versa bridge the P400-P to mono (400 watts) to power the sub and the new amp will drive the mid/woofer and make the MS-8 power the tweeters and the rear speakers? Will it over power the tweeters and the rear speakers and make it unbalance? |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1506 Registered: May-09 | 60Hz usually works great, well setup high quality subs blend in much easier so you may explore that setting. As before, let the sub in a stand alone amp, that will have a positive impact in your front stage sound quality. Place the powerful channel on the powerful speaker to make better use of any configuration you setup. I'd say that I like RF amps (Ive heard) on subs but not so much as front stage amps, while it's usually pointless to discuss which is better (or why), bear in mind that as as with toothpaste or beer they are all similar but not the same, takes some experience and access to equipment to discern their differences and find your preferences. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 138 Registered: Oct-11 | Maybe I could make my P400-4 as my sub amp. But what amp is good for front stage? Just not mchintosh its way over my budget. What do you think of MB quart or Boston acoustics? |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 139 Registered: Oct-11 | I was thinking of this amplifiers: 1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/180873818000?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m142 3.l2648#ht_2961wt_982 2. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_24110_MB-Quart-ONX4.80.html |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 134 Registered: Jul-10 | A dedicated subwoofer amp is what you need. Here is a good one nice and small, and would match your sub nicely. http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_25824_Rockford_Fosgate_T500-1bdCP.aspx |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 140 Registered: Oct-11 | Is there anything cheaper? And I would like to use a class AB amp as recommended. How about the Rockford fosgate P400-1 mono? I was thinking of getting a 4 channel amp so I could put a stronger amp for my CDT mid/ woofers. But if its better to get a dedicated amp for the sub, then I'll go for that. Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 142 Registered: Oct-11 | How about this? 1. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_33266_Massive-Audio-V-1000.1.html#tabs 2. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_22584_Rockford-Fosgate-P400-1.html |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 135 Registered: Jul-10 | The punch line of amps from r/f is not 1 ohm stable, if you want to use the P400-1 then you would have to run it at 4 ohms (200 watts rms), the Power line is 1 ohm stable and the build quality is better than the punch line. Your sub is Dual 2 ohm rated at 500 watts rms, hence, you can either wire it to 1 or 4 ohms. But if you insist on the P400-1 (which, by the way is capible of pushing that sub at 4 ohms) here you can get it cheaper http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_23605_Rockford_Fosgate_P400-1.aspx This another good option for the money http://www.audioque.com/AQ750-Amplifier_p_46.html I would recommend listen to your system first and then determine what you need as Joe said, also Joe would have some good suggestion on amps as well... |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 143 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks shopvac, I think I like the audioque. But I'll wait for Joe, what he has to say about this and maybe I could decide on what to get Rockford T500bd-1 or the audioque.Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1510 Registered: May-09 | A 4 channel Audison (intermediate series or above) 70W per channel and a mono class AB Rockford (around 500) for the sub is what I'd do. AQ are great class D SPL amps, really efficient, stay cool at all outputs, wouldn't be my first choice for this application but then who knows what someone else is going to like. Regardless I think it's worth waiting to see what you present gear can do. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 144 Registered: Oct-11 | Wow! Finally got the sub and its a killer. Its very well built, handsome and very heavy. So far the heaviest 10 inch sub I carried. The rubber surround is so thick and I'm so worried my 200 watts wont even move it. This is such a good looking sub, thanks Joe. Joe, I think I need an amplifier for this sub which among the RF's will be a good combination? Rockford fosgate 1. P400-1 - class AB 2. P500-1 - class bd stable @1 ohm 3. T500-1 - class bd stable @ 1 ohm |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1514 Registered: May-09 | The sub is high sensitivity so test it! I would count out the P500 as it overheats. You may or may not need an amp, just listen. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 145 Registered: Oct-11 | Installed the sub and it sounds great, deep and really smooth. And your right Joe, the amp is enough to power the sub. Sounds great! It even put up the sound stage. I just don't know if I'm hearing it right, but I think it did. Now, I have to install the amp and the MS-8 in a better location because I cant push back the enclosure against back of the seat and it's occupying the whole baggage compartment. Really, really thank you Joe. I'm really happy |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 137 Registered: Jul-10 | Glad you are happy Carlos |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 146 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks shopvac. I'm glad that you joined and helped out. Also, to glasswolf. Your advices are very much appreciated especially to Joe. Thanks again. Now, I have to save for something else my wife is pregnant. I'm a happy dad, lucky me I was able to finish my car. hehehe. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1516 Registered: May-09 | I am really glad it did it for you Carlos.. phew.. you never know.. anyways you still can improve your settings and all.. sometimes inverting the sub phase.firing direction... etc.. if you think car audio is expensive.. wait....lol BTW.. you never finish your car.. you just think you do when your pockets are empty...lol... That's the way it is for most of us anyways.. but you've gotten far enough..congrats on the new member of your family!! |
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Silver Member Username: ShopvacPost Number: 138 Registered: Jul-10 | That's true what Joe said "you are never finish" lol.... congrats also on the new member of the family. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 147 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks guys. True, we all know its never finished. Still have a lot in mind but need to save for the baby. Will post pictures on the installation when I'm done. Thanks again. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14692 Registered: Dec-03 | Good lord, is this thread still going on? |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 148 Registered: Oct-11 | Hi, Joe! I need to ask another question. I'm making my own speaker grill but I don't know how much space I should put between the speaker grill and the rubber surround. It mentioned that the TC has an excursion of 2 inches. How much free space do you think I should put to avoid the speaker from hitting the grill when playing? Thanks!!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14699 Registered: Dec-03 | 2" one-way or both ways? Are you looking at the Xmax, Xmag, or Xmech? Find the one-way (center to extended) Xmech measurement, and use that as your minimum spacing. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe1234Post Number: 1528 Registered: May-09 | 1.5" will be ok but car audio subs are hardly ever used with with grilles, mainly if you anticipate that the sub is going to be hit are worth using, if you want to do it anyway make sure is something made for high displacement subs. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina America Post Number: 14704 Registered: Dec-03 | he means "long throw" subs. |
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Silver Member Username: ChofilenaIloilo, Iloilo Philippines Post Number: 149 Registered: Oct-11 | Thanks guys! I already made my speaker grill but I'm worried to install it. Worried it might rattle or might create unwanted vibrations.I will put that aside first and think on how and where to put the amplifier that would give me the biggest free space in my baggage compartment. |
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