Looking for a daily sub that has a flat response in 3.95-4.1 cubic feet after displacements @ 33-35 Hz and can take 3-5.5k for hours on end. Alt is 425 amps and 2 batts are XS. Was thinking ZCON, Treo SSX, DC Level 5, that sort of thing but they have to be reasonably priced, I won't spend $1000 on a single sub that's stupid. Thanks.
I would like a 4" coil. I am looking at the HDC4, Fi BTL (3" pretty sure), stuff like that but I do prefer 4" coil. I want a flat response so when it dips below the port tune it doesn't instantly trail off. Fronts is 2 6.5's and 2 tweets/300W all together.
strange request playing with that much power for so long or will it be like intervals during those couple of hrs
obviously gotta make sure u have a good enough electrical system to keep the voltage steady too
in addition to those already listed but im not sure of price check out incriminator audio warden , ascendant choas or smd , atomic apxx , sd nightshade , dd9500 , crossfire xs-spl , tc sounds LMS-Ultra 5400 (if they still make it ?), re mt etc .....
Changing the thread direction a bit after reading things. I just wanted to get the best for my set up and there's so many different opinions on forums.
I did some research on the difference between 3" and 4" VC, power compression, neo vs ferrite, spiders & VC layers vs. distortion, heat dissipation & cooling and how much a sub can take (realistically) for daily.
I would say each day I'd be driving 30 minutes one way or an hour total, at full volume, with 30 minute to 8 hour intervals (driving to work/shopping ETC), not that I wouldn't ever be driving for 3+ hours.
Many people agree that any sub has thermal limits at 2-3k daily, even with proper electrical. My 05 XXX popped on 1.5k after 6 months (from a fried tinsel wire, stock alt & batt w/big 3 lol, lights didn't dim and amp (Visonik V900XD) didn't go into protect more than twice). Still considering a used AQ 2200 for ~$150 as -1000W most likely won't make a difference and that's super cheap for that much power.
I say 5.5k because I was looking at the Crescendo BC5500, 3k because a used Sundown is relatively cheap ($500) and IIRC it does rated at 12V which is appealing. Crescendo is comparably cheaper than other brands (not sure on the BC but hopefully they didn't drastically change their prices with their new series). I read that level 5's come alive at 3k vs. 2k.
I wanted to leave the stock 105 amps because I assumed the car would need it at some point with high-beams, A/C, turn signals ETC being used at the same time. I couldn't find any info on how much stock-alt overhead there was or how much the car actually needed to run appliances. 425-105 = 320 amps, fronts use 20-30A, so ~3k is left for a sub. I don't want to have to take out the batts every couple months to recap, they were very expensive. If the car doesn't actually need 105A at any given time than I could have more power but I can't find that out so I'd rather be on the safe side.
I wasn't sure how people got away with running larger ampifiers than their alts could sustain. I see many people have 300A alts but use ~8k. This tells me their batteries drain. I wouldn't have too much of a problem with taking them out but I don't want them to slowly lose their charge all together (after recapping so many times). I'm bad with maintenance. It would be nice to have ~5k on tap though, for overhead or otherwise.
It seems I don't need a 4" coil for ~3k. I read that many people put 3k+ to HDC3's and they hold up fine. I have read that 4HP's can get louder on less power even with less efficiency but they also have similiar limits.
I want a flat response that many of the subs I'm looking at won't provide and there's way too many to choose from:
DC Level 6 DC Level 5 Neo T3 TSNS SS XXX AA SMD AA Mayhem IA Warden TC LMS Ultra DD Z APXX BTL N2 SP4 HDC3 HDC4 RD HW Crossfire XS Treo SSX SS XCON SS ZCON
I don't know the pricing of all of those but some are near $1000. SMD, Warden I know for sure but that's new. I could buy used. I found a used SS XXX 15 for $450! The DC Neo & level 6 were exciting to read about.
I'll be doing a heck of a lot of modelling today on the WINISD calculator -_-.
I will need a volt-gauge for in-car monitoring.
My deck was stolen out of my last car but last month I found my first deck in a closet - a Dual brand that was $20 from Walmart that did the job but has a 3-band EQ and no USB .
I recently sold the 05 RE XXX for $250, not bad huh? The guy drove like 2 hours to get it lol.
Transfer function as in frequency response? Time to break out the measuring tape. I completely forget how to do all that. Port & sub pointing into the cabin & blocked off from the rest of the trunk. Trunk is 30" deep, front seat to rear seat is around 20", plus 10" somewhere in between so I'd call it 60" from the back of the trunk to the front seats.
In short, I was in a homeless shelter. I got out last week and found a job and a place. I'm getting my grade 11 & 12 math through a college at the end of May and I'm applying to be an electrical apprentice. Things are good for now. I sold my new drum kit to pay for some things, sold my old subs, my Xbox. I recently got my native status card so now I don't have to pay tax on things like gas lol.
Bad stuff LH, glad you managed to take back control of things, E has had it's share of trouble, got hacked recently and many of our experienced members have jumped off the boat.. notably Glasswolf has been around at times.
A four cube box would not require you to get rid of the back seats so Im guessing any dims beyond the trunk will not be used I guess, unless for a way in.
And Win ISD (new version 0.7!) will give you the box + sub response but that is modified drastically by the cabin, not only cabin gain itself as previously brought up but an array of resonances from the parts, usually you deaden, place the box inside and then meter the transfer function, the result is usually fed into a signal processor.
See what you come up with. Will review some of the subs above but linear and loud is expesive most like you you will need to compromise a bit. Sealed is normally very linear inside a car!
F3 30hz is good. Id say loud too but one 15 isnt gonna get all that loud so just whatevers best on paper. Im sick of the alero, want a hatch or reg cab short bed manual 4x4 for $3g.
thing is with all those high powered subs they are designed with mainly LOUD in mind with some degree of SQ
it seems to me that the flat response ur looking for might be had with running multiple subs in a sealed enclosure like say 4 10s or 12s once u have the space
typically a sealed 10 or 12 will use between 1-1.5cuft each so if ur able to fit say a 4-5cuft for a 15 then 4 10s\12s shud be able to comfortably fit in that same space & 4 subs may actually cost cheaper too
I just installed Java so now I can play with the freq. responses.
Couldn't fit 4 10's or 12's because I'm separating the trunk/cabin and entering the 1-15 2000W class in dbdrag. I could fit 2 12's sealed on the dimension/plane but it wouldn't be as loud as I want. I had 2 sealed Eclipse LMS 12's in 2.5 cubes sealed and while they were great they weren't getting loud or anything.
I've modelled a bunch of subs (and didn't notice the new SSA GCON 750W - it modelled great in 5 @ 30! It's only $230 - competitive with the SSD @ $224).
The Fi SP4-15 is a clear winner for street bass. Beefy response between 35-45 Hz. It doesn't go into the -db until 30 to 70 dB and it looks to get loud and move a lot of air. There's proof on Youtube.
Nevermind below 30 Hz, not concearned about it after looking at the SP4-15.
Modelled so far and didn't like it:
N2 XCON (flattish, not as good as SP4) ZCON GCON (not as good as SP4) Mayhem SMD SSD - weak
... the Havoc is very similiar to the SP4 in response - the SP4 being +2dB from 28-42 Hz, and then the lines follow each other. Hmmmm. The rest were peaky and damn low on the graph.
They don't make a freaking LMS Ultra 15 anymore.
Yet to model:
DC doesn't have specs on their site, WTF?! SS XXX HDC3 HDC4 RD HW Crossfire V2 TC LM
The online version of WinISD will not put in proper light the output among subs, the gain plots show the relative gain on the frequency range for a specific sub and specific box (so power and sensitivity dismissed) so for example here are the gains for the Sp4,Q and BL, green ,yellow, red respectively:
Enclosure is 4cu.ft.@33Hz:
Here is a SPL plot is the same as before but on rated power (2500,1500,1500) and sensitivity accounted for:
To notice the BL doesn't look as bad against the Q as a relative gain plot may suggest, also the Q is only 2 dB below the SP4.
Also can be seen that the BL is not in it's ideal enviroment underperforming in the low end, showing the effects of Hoffman's law.
Without a car transfer function also is hard to say if a particular response will be beneficial or not in a particular car, I understand that aleros main resonant frequency is in the lower 40s so for a SPL setup one would seek to hit that frequency and for SQ one would try to avoid it when tuning the box, this is when a parametric equalizer comes into play, one can place a notch of specific Q at that frequency to try to recover linear response on a given range.
Thanks, Joe. That green line is purdy. I tried to imagine how the graphs would change in my mind, after power & stuff so I went with the fattest line. Efficiency does make up for a big loss but in order for that extra efficiency to gallop a bigger box is needed so I was crossing off any response that dipped below 0dB.
Transfer function schlamfer schunction. 30-40 Hz is the kind of bass I'd be listening to 90% of the time so I don't mind it being peaky there.
The SP4, RE XXX V4, LMS Ultra, LMS-R and Axis are on the list.
Could you do them on rated or 3000W on the SP4 & Ultra?
Here is your big problem: (other than a fundamental lack of understanding of acoustic response and enclosure function)
" I want a flat response so when it dips below the port tune it doesn't instantly trail off."
If you want a flat response, you'll want to use two things: 1. a sealed enclosure 2. a parametric or 1/3 octave EQ.
Ported enclosures aren't built for a flat response, and they will ALWAYS roll off sharply below the tuned frequency, and should, in fact, use a filter to block any frequencies below that point as well. Otherwise, you run a strong chance of the driver unloading, losing any acoustic suspension provided by the enclosure, and having the speaker's cone end up all over your trunk, in little pieces when the coil over-excurts, and blows the coil and cone out of the basket and motor structure.
If you want flat and loud, you use a large sealed enclosure, and a lot of power. Porting a box is just a "cheat" to get more volume at or near the tuned frequency without the use of more power or more drivers.
In short, use the right tool for the job, or ask someone who knows what he's doing to design the right system for you. You wouldn't try to perform your own colonoscopy, so don't try to do a professional's job when it comes to this either.
SP4 - Green RE XXX - Yellow LMS Ultra - Violet LMS-R - White Axis - Blue
The RE will probably hit your main resonant frequency, the XXXs peak high on the mfr recommended enclosure and drops fast after that, only way to help it is tune lower.
As far as output goes it seems the Axis and LMS-R are losers and the Ultra, not sure if the 15" is still around.
Another fun thing to watch is the same drivers on optimized enclosures for linear performance:
Joe, thanks. The SP4 is sweet, apparently flat in 4.41 @ 23.xx. I'm trying to get the tuning lower and adding more space.
Glass, why not? It's +3dB over sealed. I've had many sealed boxes, I didn't like them as much as ported. That lines in the last plot look flat, right? What's wrong with those?
Lowest/biggest I've got is 4.32 @ 31.26 w/3.5 x 15 port. Not bad. Not going to do an L-shaped port, either. Port width before was 3.75" and it gave 4 @ 34.
"Glass, why not? It's +3dB over sealed. I've had many sealed boxes, I didn't like them as much as ported. That lines in the last plot look flat, right? What's wrong with those?"
you're contradicting yourself in one sentence, and you don't even realize it.
_3dB is NOT a flat response. A ported box isn't just _3dB. It's only _3dB at or near the port frequency, which is typically in the 28-45Hz range. Outside of that narrow spike in efficiency, the box is pretty flat, just like a sealed box. This only applies in a car. In a home, a ported box is flatter than a sealed box because you don't have cabin gain below transfer function in a house the way you do in a car thanks to the smaller cabin volume of the vehicle.
In short, a ported box "sounds better" BECAUSE it's NOT flat in response. What you're liking is the boost in output at the tuned frequency. That's the opposite of a flat tresponse. The sealed boxes you had before were flat. You apparently don't like flat. Most people actually do not like a flat response. They feel it lacks bass, and lacks some in the higher end as well, due to the human ear's natural inverse bell curve in hearing response across the audible range.
Stop trying to design a ported box that defeats the characteristics of a ported box, and just make a ported box on the small side of recommended air volume, then EQ that box gain out of the curve if it bothers you. That's how you flatten out a ported box response.
Ported box that defies ported box... I can do 4.3 @ 31.25 with 12 inches of port per cubic foot. Thats in the recommendation.
About how much more power over a ported box would a sealed box allow? I don't mind sealed, just want good out put. My single ported 12 was louder than anything else, it was nice.
So the online winisd calculator doesn't tell about anything other than the out of vehicle response, which they never look perfectly flat at the 0dB line, but because of cabin gain would those sealed plots make it flat in the vehicle.
3dB is the same as adding a second sub with the same total power, or double the power to the single sub. it's audible, but not nearly double the volume. _6 to _10dB is double the output, which also requires an increase in power on the order of ten times.
If you have a home stereo AV receiver that measures volume in absolute or relative volume in dB (example 30dB, or -18dB) set the volume to a moderate level, and turn it up 3dB to see the approximate difference.
if you want a lot of output from a sealed box, you need to go with a large enclosure. That's the key to increasing power handling and output both in a sealed box.
Personally, I prefer a ported box in a car, myself. If I want a flat response, I just use a 1/3 octave EQ to level out the bump in output at the tuned frequency. It looks good in competitions and on an TRA, but I like the added output around 28-31Hz, in my own systems so I rarely shoot for "flat" in daily driving situations.
"flat" on a C-weighted curve may seem like the way to get a natural sound from a system, but to be honest, most things that produce a lot of bass, aren't "natural" to begin with.. for example, a bass guitar is run through an amplifier, which shapes the output and boosts the low end anyway.. so keep that sort of thing in mind when you consider what you want.
The Sp4 18" ported vs sealed. Average car cabin gain accounted for:
Default alignment (other cabin effects and coil inductance effect not accounted for), this is just for you to look how both are expected to perform inside a car.
With sealed if you are not reaching a near Xmax excursion at rated power then you may grow the net volume until you do. that will give you the max output (until it starts to get hot inside anyway).
To me the downside of ported is when a design is not made to control group delay,
