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New member Username: HteacPost Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 | I had the message below under Home theater. This is probably the right place: I'm a newbie who's trying to setup a HT and I was hoping you guys could help. Size of room: 21x24 and height is 9' Use: 50% music and 50% movies I'm looking at the following setup: B&W 2x703 front B&W 2xDS7 surr. B&W HTM7 center HSU VTF-3 Sub Adcom 7807 - 300Wx7 or 7607 - 125Wx7 Multichannel Amp or Outlaw 770 -200Wx7 Adcom GTP-860II preamp or Outlaw 950 Need advice on which equip. will give me the most bang for my buck and will sound nice and warm too as this is a big investment and I don't want to get into trouble with the wife. I went to a B&W dealer today and he's recommending Rotel 1066+ 1095. He had Paradigm speakers there that also sounded good. Now I'm even more confused as there's a huge difference in price btw the 2 brands. Help please. Thanks |
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New member Username: HeffPost Number: 32 Registered: 12-2003 | Aloof, u are in the right place! If price is no object, I vote for Rotel with Outlaw/Adcom/Marantz tied for second. Rotel looks very nice, and if Santa was giving these away to the naughty/nice, you'd have a memorable Christmas indeed! Bang/buck - wise, both Outlaw and Adcom are great choices. I'll suggest the Marantz MM900's too since i've seen it offered $699.99 delivered from authorized e-tailer. |
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New member Username: GmanPost Number: 16 Registered: 12-2003 | I haven't even seen any reviews or heard these B&W models yet. They must be a recent release--and rather expensive too. I don't mean this to be crude, but can you give me a ballpark figure on the B&W speakers? Also wanted to know if you compared them to anything else in that price range. I'd get the Outlaw 950 and either the 5 x 200 watt or 7 x 200 watt Outlaw amp. Depends if you ever plan on getting 2 more speakers if you want the 7 channel amplifier. The only advantage Rotel may have is that it costs a heckuva lot more for comparable gear and it looks nicer. It certainly won't sound any better. But then if price isn't that big a deal I could think of a number of other separates. But it is true that the price/performance ratio diminsihes in a hurry. I own an THX Ultra 2 certified Aragon Soundstage preamp and the 2007 amp (Klipsch bought Aragon, so you can see it on their website--for no other reason than to check it out). Anthem also makes a nice combination. The Aragon is a knockout to look at and comes with a pre-programmed Philips Pronto remote--pretty much the best of all remotes. And I am good friends with the dealer and could get you a great deal---but then again--it is a lot more expensive than the Outlaw (particularly for the pre-amp)or the Adcom. If you are trying to save money on this aspect of your system--get the Outlaw. By the way--do you already have an HDTV and a dvd player? I am always interested when someone is putting together a top notch system. I've looked at so many HDTV's from $2,000 to $12,000 in the last month I am bleary-eyed. But it is an area I can give advice on if you are looking--each type of HDTV has plusses and minusses. If I was loaded with money I would get a good front projector and a screen that electronically rolls up and down to reveal a large screen HDTV--from 55" to 65". My business better have a big year if I want this toy:-) |
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New member Username: GmanPost Number: 17 Registered: 12-2003 | Personally--I would stick with the Paradigm Reference Studio's. They are great and at a much more reasonable price than B&W. Sounds like your dealer wants to impress B&W by selling that rig--plus make a bundle himself. I would also consider the Focal-JMLab Cobalt S system. I heard it a week ago and was very impressed. The whole thing with powered subwoofer lists for $4400. I think the Perfect Vision listed it as their loudspeaker system of the year too, for whatever that is worth. I certainly hope this dealer--or any other (for that matter)is taking off at least 10% if you are buying 5 speakers at minimum. Even 15-20% wouldn't be out of line. But at least 10% and maybe he pays the sales tax too. Do you live in a small area where he is the only dealer around for high end equipment? |
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New member Username: HteacPost Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 | Thanks Heff and Greg for the the sound advice. One dealer is giving me 8% off the B&W speakers and I'll be going to a diff. dealer in the area. I do have access to 2 dealers in the area. I did audition the Paradigm Ref. 100 side by the with the B&W. For some reason, my impression was that the B&W sounded more neutral. The paradigm seemed to have more bass. Quality wise, how does the Paradigm compare to the B&W? Regarding the Amps., I heard that Parasound is also good. Any comments? My budget for the complete system (speakers, sub, Pre/pro and Amp.) is $8000.00. Greg, I do not have a HDTV yet. I'll look at that next year probably. Thanks - Everyone |
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tnt Unregistered guest | You should definately check out the Pioneer Elite line of rear projectors when it comes time to purchase your HDTV. I did exhaustive research/viewing and they actually represent excellent value. The newer display technologies need further development before the price/performance ratios merge. I can't believe anyone actually buys the big LCD sets. They look like they have a film of dried milk on them! |
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New member Username: HawkPost Number: 19 Registered: 12-2003 | aloof: My congratulations on having such a nice budget for your home theater. Most of us are not so lucky, so we can dream of having such freedom (and live vicariously through you!). Personally, I think you are off to a great start. I have not heard the B+Ws side by side with the Paradigms as they are competing dealers in my area. Still, I have heard them both and I must agree with your assessment that the B+Ws sound closer to neutral than do the Paradigms. Both are superb speakers, but I fully understand your preference for the B+Ws (Greg--these speakers are the redesigned CDM-NT series from B+W). Since you have a budget of $8K, and you are getting an 8% discount on the B+W speakers, it looks to me as if you have about $3500 to spend on electronics (pre/pro and amp). That gives you some nice choices. Each of the units you ask about are very fine units. My only concern is that you have said that you want something "warm" sounding. My experience with the Outlaw and Rotel amps (particularly Outlaw) is that they are a bit cool sounding. I wouldn't describe them as being so cool as to sound clinical, but definitely cool sounding, and is not the warm sound that you suggest you want. Instead, in addition to the Adcom amps, I would strongly suggest a B & K amp, which uses MOSFETs in the output stages (instead of bi-polar transistors) which have a very warm, almost "tube-like" sound. It is as smooth as butter, and a delight to listen to. They have a number of different models, at 125 wpc or 200 wpc, either power available in a 5 or 7 channel chassis. A model 125.5 goes for about $1200 and the top of the line 200.7 goes for about double that amount, with the prices of the 125.7 and the 200.5 in between. I suggest you call Kief's about them if you are interested--they are very competitive on price and give good advice, as well. I am pretty impressed with the pre/pros you suggest. I haven't seen any pre/pros that offer the value that the Outlaw gives. The Adcom is another very fine unit with wonderful functionality. I have heard the Rotel, and I like it, but I haven't had the chance to play with one to really get to know it. Still, it is a fine unit. I hope this helps. Merry Christmas! |
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New member Username: HteacPost Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 | Hawk,Thanks for the sound advice. The B&W dealer wants $4800 for the speakers (without the sub.), which leaves me with $3200(before taxes) for sub, pre/pro and Amp if I go that route. I read somewhere that there's some kind of a service problem with the B&Ks. Can anyone comment on this. Also, the dealer was trying to talk me into buying a B&W Sub (ASW 750 - $1600). He says only then will the sound from the Sub 'blend' in with the rest of the system. I'll definitely contact Kiefs. Also, I read about Magnepan and M&K speakers in the archives here. How do they compare to the B&Ws ? How good are Parasound Amps ? tnt - I'll keep the HDTV advice in mind. Thanks. Thanks everyone. |
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New member Username: HawkPost Number: 24 Registered: 12-2003 | aloof: Wow, the B+Ws cost more than I thought! As I read your post, that $4800 is without the sub and I thought it would be $4500 with the sub. That puts a real crimp in your budget for the electronics. I must admit I have not heard of any problems with B&K amps. I will be on the lookout for any info I can on this as I don't want to recommend bad products. Still, I have been seduced by the B&K sound, but alas, it remains well beyond my grasp. I honestly think that if you only want five channels, the 125.5 would work just fine and at $1200, that leaves you with some serious cash for the pre/pro. I have not been a fan of B+W subs--they simply have not been competitive with the Hsu/SVS/Velodyne lines of subwoofers. As for the dealer's comment that you need their sub to really "blend" with the system, well, forum rules prevent me from suggesting what I think of that remark. The Hsu is a better sub and will "blend" just as well or better as the B+W sub. Furthermore, I find the cost of the B+W to be outrageous. A sub simply doesn't do that much that you should be spending more than $1K on the sub. Magnepans are the best sounding speaker I have ever heard, IMHO. Now, they are a planar speaker, so they have several unique attributes. The first is that they are fast--far faster in musical response than any cone type speaker. They have an immediacy to the response that you cannot believe. They are also far more transparent than any cone speaker. There is no box to contain the speaker, hence no box coloration. I have had a pair of Maggies and there have been times when I actually thought the performers were in the room with me it sounds that good. They sound more three dimensional than the B+Ws (lots of "air" if you know what I mean). If you have an interest, you should try them out at a local dealer. Now, Maggies aren't for everyone as some people prefer a more traditional box speaker. But you should listen to them to find out. It is interesting to note that Stereophile (bible to the diehards of audio) once did a survey of their readers and their audio equipment--turns out no brand had more than 15% of any category except speakers where something gaudy like 73% of their readers had Magnepan speakers. Quite an endorsement, IMO. I would recommend a pair of 1.6s, a CC3 center and a pair of MGMC1s for the rears. Should cost about $3500 total and you can afford the Hsu sub and top drawer electronics. I don't care for M&K speakers, however. They are too bright for my tastes. I am very fond of Parasound amps and almost recommended one, but I honed in on your comment you wanted a warm amp, which made me think of the B & K. Now, Parasound's Halo series are somewhat warm sounding, not as much as the B & K, but certainly warmer sounding than the Outlaw or Rotel amps. I would recommend the Halo A52, a five channel, 125 wpc amp for which I have a link which describes it well: http://audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=PARHA52&product_name=Halo%20 A52%20Five-Channel%20Amplifier I think you can get a much better price at Kief's, though. At least $200 less, probably more. |
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New member Username: EdisonPost Number: 36 Registered: 12-2003 | You might want to consider this digital receiver Sa-xr45 from pioneer - many audiophiles are buying it, and some think it compares well to amps like the ones you are considering, and is only $300. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/handr-deals/30044.html Read what people are saying about this price breakthrough on amps. http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=4991&postdays=0&postorder=asc &highlight=xr45&start=0&sid=942dbebe1d8b0b0c99cc4c5ce082c0c6 |
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New member Username: GmanPost Number: 33 Registered: 12-2003 | Elegant Audio sells 5.1, 5.1, and 7.1 Paradigm Reference Studio systems a roughly 15% off---and it would probably be with no taxes--and they ship for free. Expensive to cheaper they are a 7.1 2 prs of Studio 100 speakers,one studio c/c center channel, pr of Studio ADP surrounds, and the amazing Paradigm Servo 15---list $6700 Sells @ $5795. 5.1 system pr of the Studio 60's, same center,same surrounds, and same sub. List $4100 on sale @ $3549 I save my fave 5.1 Paradigm combo for last--because this one is great for music, besides HT. 1 pr of 80's up front, the same center, the same sub, and the studio 40's for the surrounds. list at $4900 sale @ $4250. I have a local dealer that may do the same or better if I ask him--or if you want a different mix---like 5 speakers and a HSU VTF-3 to save even more. I like the Maggie center channel a lot. But placing the rest of them to get optimum sound can be a drag and anger the spouse--these speakers need a lot of room--as they are planar and radiate both ways--so they have to be away from the walls considerably and then you have to dial them in. Ya know--keep moving them until they sound right. If you have a lot of room and a spouse that is very accepting of design anomalies--or no spouse at all--they are worth a listen and if possible a try at home to see if it is feasible. No doubt--they have have a nice sound. Another thought struck me--have you ever heard Definitive Technology speakers? They are excellent and are worth a listen. Plus, many of these speaker models have incredible bass because the woofers are self-powered. I can think of a couple of different Def Tech configurations--plus I doubt you would even remotely need a subwoofer with these. Pricing from Downtown Audio: 2002TL pr lists @ $2200 Sale @ $1825 CLR 3000 center lists @ $1000 Sale @ $830 BPVX/P pr surrounds list @ $1500 Sale @ 1150 Total Price: $3308 Another possibility: 2002TL 2 pairs Sale: $1825 x 2 = $3650 CLR 3000 Sale: $830 Total: $4480 or: 2004TL 2 pairs list $1600 sale: $1328 Price for 2 pairs: $2656 CLR 3000 Sale: $830 Total Price: $3486 and with the one above if you went 7 with Def Techs best surrounds, the BPVX/P $1150/pr-- Your total for $4636 As all the above speakers have self-powered woofers and the 2002's and the 2004's go down lower than many expensive subwoofers--I can't imagine you ever needing a subwoofer. I would definitely check these out if possible. Reviews on them are universally excellent. Plus, since none of the woofers need to be driven you could get two big advantages. One: you never have to worry about bass management when playing DVD-Audio or SACD's or for anything else involving woofer crossovers. TWO: A good receiver like the new NAD T773 would easily drive the speakers to as loud as you'd ever like. That receiver was just released and can be had for about $1450. Stereophile named the Yamaha RX Z1 as their receiver of the year. That can be bought under $2k and has a great pre-amp section to boot. Or even a Pioneer Elite 49TXi @ $2500 or the soon to be released 59TXi--probably around $3K. The new 59TXi will have firewire and HDMI which you will greatly appreciate when you buy a new HDTV and dvd players. Having two surround systems at home and owning both fairly expensive separates and an expensive receiver, the performance difference is generally inaudible, unless you have speakers that need copious quantities of power to get the most out of them. Of course you could get separates like Parasound amp or Outlaws and then get separate preamps. But it will leave you with considerably less money to get a great dvd player and HDTV. And I don't know any pre-amps that have DVI or HDMI connections. And these are the future and even the present of great dvd players and HDTV's. My attitude is, unless you have speakers that need big power, a good high end receiver with the latest features and plenty of power will give you wonderful performance, plus some have the latest connections for video tht are missing in any pre-amp under $4K--even many pre-amps over $8K don't have them. Anyway, I doubt you will make a drastic mistake anyway you go. Seems to me you will get a top notch system among any of those mentioned in the previous posts. |
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New member Username: HteacPost Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 | Thanks to Greg and Hawk for all the info. I went to see a dealer that had the Magnepans yesterday. The design is not for me. Since this will be going into my family room ( a semi formal place) it may not work with the decor etc. I got a better deal on the B&W 703s ($4450 for 5 speakers without the sub) or $5700 for the 804 Nautilus (5 speakers). The same dealer gave me a rotel deal for $2900 (1066 pre-amp + 1095 Amp.) I'll contact Kiefs to see what they can do. I also saw Rotels 1098 preamp with the nice screen. I can't afford that anyway. I may end purchsing these products at this point. I just want to make sure that I get the best deal. If anyone knows of a dealer that could give me a better deal, pls. let me know. Thanks everyone. |
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New member Username: HteacPost Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 | I just came across this site that's has an interesting comparison btw. Rotel and Parasound ... http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/index.cfm?fuseaction=Threads.viewthread&Tid=8954 7&Forum=40&StartRow=1&CFB=1 |
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New member Username: NathanPost Number: 3 Registered: 01-2004 | Hello Hawk, I am very newbie here. I need some advices for me to desire to purchase my new receiver or Pre-amp + Amp. First, I would like to spend around $3K for it. Second, I want to enjoy my time with music and movie about (%50 + %50) for both. I need about 125w to 150w. Should I go with 5.1c or 7.1c. I am thinking to go with: NAD T973 (AMP) + NAD T163 (Pre-amp) OR NAD T773 new receiver I know Rotel 1065 receiver is very good, but it has only 5c unit. Do you know what is price for Rotel 1065 now??? ANY advices would really be appreciated. Thanks! |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 5 Registered: 01-2004 | B&W are probably the best, and consistent line of 'box' speakers available. PSB tends to be decent as well (again, for cabinet design: and all their inherent, unsurmountable anomolies; such as cabinet resonance, diffraction, and being subject to room mode anomolies due to their 360 degree radiation pattern). The only way to improve on B&W for transparency, and accurate 'true to the original' playback, would be to crossover to directional dipole designs: planer (Magnapan); electrostatic (Martain-Logan, etc); or open baffle (Gradient Revolution, Audio Artistry). BTW, AA is unbeatable for integration of the various frequency stages, and the least subject to room mode anomolies, setup (a wide 'sweet spot' --no vice needed for your head as with ELS :-) or first order reflections (all due to 'directional' disperse pattern from dynamic high excursion (air moving) drivers ), and lack of fatigue, even from extended listening periods at 'live' levels. See 'Design of Loudspeakers' link at www.linkwitzlab.com (while there see the 'Music' link for proven, sonically superior, reference grade CD's for enjoyment as well as evaluating your system) The Rotel amps have supurb specs. A basic guidline for distortion free accuracy over a wide frequency range is: Less than 0.1% THD Frequency range of at least 5hz-50khz Input impedance more than 10k ohm Out put impedance less than 0.4ohm Damping factor more than 100 The Hafler DH-200, 220; Rotel; ATI; Muse 160; BEL 1001; Bry$ton; and Jeff Rowland$ De$ign Group, all meet or exceed these specs. The Muse, for instance, offers a THD of less than 0.05%; range 7hz-135khz; Out imped less than 0.1ohm, and is very well built (MSRP 1900). I do not understand why anyone would group inferior gear with these accurate, superior, distorion free, and wide frequency range amps, ranging in price from $200 to over $8000. Where, however, the only justification for paying more than $200 is for improved build quality. To close, let me just add: 'When it comes to reproducing the original artistic performance for later playback there are two schools of thought. One contends that it is acceptable, may be even desirable, to alter the original in the path from recording to playback for maximum emotional impact, arguing that it is impossible - to begin with - to replicate the original. The other tries to minimize any such changes in order to deliver faithfully what the artist and producer tried to communicate.' (Linkwitz) Consciously, and willingly, choose a side. Don't be put there by the influence of marketing strategies, or by others whom you know nothing of their talent, knowledge, experience, or motivation. |
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Darren Unregistered guest | Fred McAmis: Forgive me, I am a newbie at this too. I just want to clarify. You are saying that Hafler, Rotel, ATI, Muse, Bryston are good but you do not list the inferior gear. The previous post mentioned NAD. Would this be considered inferior gear? |
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Darren Unregistered guest | The reason I ask is because I too am considering buying the new NAD T773 receiver. |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 33 Registered: 01-2004 | [Darren] Check the specs. they reveal the degree of frequency response, and distortion. I have omitted Rotel (and Anthem) from my list though since neither company will provide their InterModulationDistoriton (IMD) spec. which saddend me since their other specs are so good. Oh, well. I know mfgrs do not conceal specs that are complimentary, only those that reflect poorly on the amps distortion free sonic quality. Its just that the list is so short already, but fortuately there is a wide price range (and commencerate build quality, of course). Though some are 'pricy' and apparently for those who believe they get quality with price (Bryson, and Jeff Rowlands). I believe the ATI line is best value. While the Hafler DH-200, 220 are perfect for those on a strict budget, and/or just beginning to develope a 'true to the original' system. |
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New member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 12 Registered: 12-2003 | Fred, You make no sense. Are you saying that ATI amps will output the same audio signal the same as a Jeff Rowland or Bryston amp? Are you saying the only way people pay more is that they think they are getting a better built amp, when really it is the same thing? |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 34 Registered: 01-2004 | [Ben James} What makes no sense to me is that amps ranging in price from $200 to $8k, essentially 'sound' the same, and share almost identical specs (though not always 'build quality'). The difference one WILL 'hear' when using a VERY low distortion amp is more of the CD will be revealed in the speakers. If they are even fairly accurate, or transparent, as in planer, ELS, or open baffle designs, sized for the environment in which they will operate, and setup properly, it can be astonishing. Though if for instance the source material is poorly engineered, over mixed, and generally poor in sonic quality (as oh so many are) you will hear that too. Ironically, misguided, uninformed, and gullible audiophiles will misinterpret what they now hear as a weakness of some component or other, when in reality is it the strengths of a good speaker/amp/setup alowing you to hear what was there the whole time --perhaps intentionally veiled by distortion characteristics in the previous components. The trouble with using distortion in various compontes of the syetem, even if poetically referred to, to compensate for our favorite music that has been poorly recorded, is that it also masks the superior sonic qualities of well engineered, properly mic'd, sparingly mixed recordings that give us a sense 'true to the original' realism in our playback systems that can draw us into the music, and give us long periods of listening enjoyment without fatigue. If that can achieved with a $200 Hafler amp, as well as an $8k JR, or a better built, more practicle amp falling between the two in price, well, you do the math and tell me what makes sense. I promise you, once you get there, top end components, or especially cables, and other tweaks, will no longer be issues of potential audio salvation to you any longer. You will see the humor in all the hype surrounding those products (laugh or cry :-) That is all I am saying. |
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New member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 13 Registered: 12-2003 | Fred, People who spend $200 for a Hafler amp may be trying to justify not having a Bryston or Jeff Rowland amp by saying they are the same, but that is all buyers remorse. I have done the math and think it makes the most sense to go Bryston. You are also making some bad assumptions on recording. Some engineers to not try to mix realistic recordings, instead they attempt to achieve something else. You may not like some of them, but that does not make things of poor quality. I can say that picking good source components, pre-amp, and speakers is more important than your amp. If that is the point you are trying to convey, then I agree. |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 35 Registered: 01-2004 | [Ben James] I challenge you to provide the 'math' you did that supports your notion that the more you pay, the 'better' sound you get. The specs of the amps in question show that price is only price, with the obvious exception of build quality and aesthetics. Low distrotion, and high frequency response characteristics is something else, and is measurable and represented in the specs. The specs of the $200 Hafler are almost identical, and may even be superior, to the JR or Bryston. I believe a blind test will render all of them, including the Muse, and ATI (probably the best value in performance/build quality) indiscernable from each other, as the specs indicate. Low distortion, with a high frequency range, in an amp, coupled to accurate and transparent speakers, properly sized and setup, will proved a 'true to the original' playback experience. That is, the best any playback system can accomplish is to reveal whatever was recorded on the source material: the good, the bad, and terrible. If 'true to the original' is the goal throughout the process: from playback to the artists actual performance, then you find yourself subject to the engineers, mixers, and producers, where your only recourse for them producing 'something other', is in the selection process of the recording. But with an accurate, reavealing system, at least you are in a position to evaluate that recording for yourself, instead of just repeating yet again what the producers did in corrupting the artists work, that you find offensive (like the infamous over-use of the expander in the futile attempt to replicate the acoustic of the hall after that subtlety was smeared by the mixing down process, but this time with selected distortions in the components of your own system. Taking yourself yet another step further from 'true to the original'. But, hey, to each is own, I guess. Then, when you happen to encounter a well engineered, sonically superior CD, you will never know it. Isn't that a shame? |
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New member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 14 Registered: 12-2003 | Now Fred, Lets see $1600 for a 3B SST...20 years of warranted performance, pristine sound, single ended and balanced input, auto on, will hold it's value on ebay. $800 for a Hafler P3000 either single ended or balanced input ( I'm guessing balanced is extra), no auto on, 5 tear non-transferrable warranty, decent sound, doesn't hold it's value. And their specs are not the same. Bryston wins. Given your logic, I can be assured that any speaker that has the same published specs as B&W will sound just like them, right? Obvoiusly if you "believe" things will sound the same, you have no math to prove your point. Don't hide behind double blind propaganda, listen. |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 36 Registered: 01-2004 | [Ben James] 'Now Fred' introduces a condescending attitude. 'Bryston wins'? what kind of a game are you playing here? It is my believe that Bryston, though pricey, is superior to most amps. Including Haflers, except for the models I mentioned: DH-200, 220. Also, you switch from apples to organges in your reasoning on evaluating speakers. Again, I beliveve that B&W consistently makes a superior speaker, for an enclosed cabinet design. Though I never heard of using any kind of specs to evaluate speaker designs. Have you? Aside from the desingers themselves in selecting drivers, that is. But then a major, and significant component in speaker design is the crossover anyway. But we digress... Anyway, it is the magazine reviewer 'connoisseurs of coloration', and their constituency that buys inferior products for high prices, that allege, 'specs do not matter, its how it sounds'. However, even they, when an amp has decent specs, always mention it. But otherwise, how else can they sell products with lousey specs, especially at high prices. |
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Darren Unregistered guest | I would just like a general opinion on NAD and it's place in the audio world. Is it good stuff or should I stay away from it? As I said before I am very new to this and any thoughts from more experienced listeners would be greatly appreciated. |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 37 Registered: 01-2004 | [Darren] NAD and Adcom are mid-fi at best, and pretty much in the catagory of 'consumer electronics'. If that is your style, then I have nothing to say. But if you seek 'true to the original' in your playback system then you want a distoriton free amp over a wide dynamic range... General minimum specs to look for to aquire significant degree of that are: THD <0.1% at rated power Frequency response of say 5hz-50khz Output impedance: <0.4ohm Damping factor: >20 Input impedance: >10k ohms IMD should probably be roughly that of the THD Notice the specs of the $200 (used) Hafler DH-200, 220: THD: <0.02% IMD: <0.005% Frequency Range: 1hz-100khz (1w) or 10hz-40khz at rated power (100w) Damping Factor: 50/150 and like that. Huh? You find similar specs with the Muse 160, BEL 1001, ATI, Bryston, and Jeff Rowland Design Group...ranging in price and build quality to hang on the wall its so beautiful to over $8k. Rotel, and Anthem has great specs but will not provide IMD (?) Both may compete in price with NAD and Adcom. But in degree of distortion free, and dynamic range, you will find no impercecptable difference any of them and the vintage jewel Halfer models, and why they are always on the market to this day. They just lack build quality/aesthetic. |
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New member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 15 Registered: 12-2003 | Now Frank, No game...just what you asked for...my math DH-200/220 is even a worse comparison. Good luck finding a new one...with a warranty. More oranges to apples. You are making generalizations about reviewers (you would think that would be against the DBT creed..generalizations). They have opinions just like you and I. |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 38 Registered: 01-2004 | [Jen James] Math...I have seen no math, just your crituque, apparently of me, mostly. Why don't you take your 'whatever it is' to someone of like mind, or that enjoys, or at least is willing to put up with, what it is that you are trying to draw me into. |
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New member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 16 Registered: 12-2003 | Now Fred, I'm not drawing you in to anything. People use this for honest advise. While you have given some, you have also made some bogus generalizations. You are mixing opinions and disguising them as facts. I am trying to let unsuspecting people know that. If you would have said..."For my money, I would rather buy a used Hafler DH-200/220 over a Bryston or Jeff Roland model with similar power handling characteristics. I haven't actually had all three in my system and am making judgements from specs (why not s/n ratio?), but that is what I would do" it would have been more honest. The fact of the matter is that Rotel, NAD, Bryston, Jeff Rowland, Adcom, and Outlaw all make outstanding amps, each with a different parts, design, and sonic signature. I will also add that the sonic differences between s/s amps are not usually as big as between other components. |
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Unregistered guest | One spends much time agonizing about the choice of amplifier and preamplifier in one's system. In fact, the one device that contributes most to the quality of sound of your system is the Speaker. If one breaks down what percentage of sound qhality is contributed by the speakers, amp. or preamp, the speakers probably contribute about 80% or perhaps even more. In fact, as long as the amp. has sufficient power, changing the amplifier has little effect on the quality of sound from your system. I'm aware that this would be vigorously disputed by Stereophile magazine or The Absolute Sound but try it for yourself. What I'm trying to say is that the single most important device in your system is the speaker and therefore most of your budget should be spent on your speakers. |
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New member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 17 Registered: 12-2003 | Speakers are indeed important, but it would be extremely bad advise to tell someone that they should spend 80% of their budget on them. The price point of diminishing returns with speakers has dropped tremendously low. In fach you can buy great new speakers can be for a fraction of what you would have paid before. |
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New member Username: HomedesignPost Number: 39 Registered: 01-2004 | [Louis Alperstein] I agree in part. Though the speakers, like your computer, are subject to 'garbage in - garbage out'. An accurate and transparent speaker system will reveal amplifier distortion all the more, as well as (the plentiful) poorly produced source material. What worries me is when the uninitaiated interpret that as poor speaker quality and then choose speakers that mask those sonic anomolies and become content with masked distortion as the quality of their system. The amp is #2 in significance for a 'true to the original' quaility in playback. Followed by (the source material of course) then the top end gear (Premap, CD player, etc.). Only then do cables and tweaks selection have any importance. But then, when accurate speakers, appropriate for the room, have been selected and setup properly, and a distortion free amp sized to power them, the listening experience will leave one not paranoid about spikes, or so willing to pay the exhorbitant prices for 'Brand Name' cables, and other tweaks, such as expensive vibration control, and acoustic treatment devices, etc. Note: the question is, which are 'accurate' speakers. That cannot be determined by price, either high or low (Ben James well intentioned, I am sure, analysis nothwithstanding). Those who have become frustrated with the inherent anomolies of enclosed cabinet speaker designs, and the degradation of sonic quality throughout the frequency range invoked by the adverse affect their 360 degree radiation pattern has on room acoustics, end up crossing over to diple designs (planer, ELS, and open baffle). My advise is, once a design is selected for your particular environment, to achieve what your goals are, then shop for price to fit a budget. For instance, if you opt to convert from the products that are popuarized by market forces, to say planer speakers, Magnapan makes a very reasonably priced speaker, which can later be extended with an appropriate and also accurate sub woofer. But, once you get into that design arena, its a whole new ball game. But one that will at least affort some accomplishment in achieving 'live' realism in your playback experience. For what it is worth, and only to those who opt to choose 'true to the original' as their goal. |
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Anonymous | A price tag means nothing! How does it sound to you... EDGE reference mono block's at $75,000 for the pair, and believe it or not folks there are a lot of amps far far under that price tag that sound better! |