Getting bass from a 944 Turbo...? Possible...?
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | I'm TRYING to build a VERY simple & basic system w/as FEW speakers, etc, as possible, for a Porsche 944 Turbo S- these cars were never set-up for decent sound... The Turbo S had a 5.25 woofer w/sep 3" mid & sep tweeter up front- the 5.25 & 3 were underneath the armrest (tweeter up top) & the rear of the car had a 6.5" w/sep tweeter under the rear 1/4 window. MY car has 6.5" Infinity Kappa coaxes in rear w/Infinity 6800CS (6x8 w/sep tweeter) up front- the 6x8's are under the armrest- the bass sucks- the factory Turbo S stuff was about as good (w/much smaller speakers & MUCH less power)- I'm running the new speakers off an ADS PQ10 4-ch amp- I have a Kenwood 7017 HU. I HAD an '89 Integra- had 4- 6.5" 50w Bose coaxes w/Clarion Pro Audio HU (from '95)- it had decent bass- I'm sure that w/a decent amp & slightly stronger speakers, it would have been great, so, I don't believe it when someone says I have to have subs to get decent bass- I could FEEL the bass in my seats in the Integra, so, I definately don't need subs for what I want. Does anyone here know anything about how to get some decent bass out of the FRONT speakers of a 944 Turbo or Turbo S? The rears are doing ok- much better than the 6x8 seperates- this is VERY irritating- any input would be greatly appreciated... thanks a lot, Robby |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 235 Registered: Jun-04 | Most likely you just need a new amp -- that PQ10 is only 45Wx4, but the 6800 is 90W RMS. Let us know how you'd like to handle the problem: speakers that will give good sound off the PQ10's power, or a better amp to suit the 6800s. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 236 Registered: Jun-04 | Oh, and just in case you don't believe me: you can bridge the channels on that PQ10 to deliver 90Wx2 -- hook the 6800s to that and hear difference.  -Matt |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- thanks for your help... I've read a bunch of your replies- you obviously know a TON more than I do, so, I mean what I'm about to ask w/all-do-respect, but, I'm afraid it's not power- I'm thinking it's enclosure area- I say this b/c the Integra is a VERY similar shaped car & w/less than 1/4 of the power w/much weaker speakers, it gave pretty good bass(?). Also, the PQ10, so I've been told, is very underrated, BUT, IF what you are saying is the case, I THINK I would rather go w/dif speakers & KEEP this amp- it is fairly small for an amp (the reason for it's lower power output?) but, is STILL WORLDS above anything else I've ever had, but unfortunately, I'm getting LESS bass from it than anything else too... Also, the 6.5's seem to have decent bass, &, they're #'s are less than that of the 6x8's- in other words, the 6.5's should need MORE power than the 6x8's. What I'M thinking is that it's a case of area- the area underneath the armrest is less than 2" deep max & ~10" long- it actually tapers, so that at the bottom, it is actually touching the base of the door panel, so that there is no depth. I'd almost have to show pics, which I DO have, but, am not sure how I would ever post them(?). the original 5.25 actually gave as much bass off a stock HU (in this small enclosure) than my ADS amp gives through the 6x8's here- I picked the 6x8's for the front- I tried 6.5" CDT CL61's, but, they would not fit there- 6.5's are just too big- I wanted a seperate of some sort for the front w/as much cone area, for bass, as possible... what do you think based on all this? ALSO- how does one hook up an amp, speaker to speaker, in order, for a normal car? I mean, I have ch #1 as front left, #2 is front right, #3 is rear left, #4 is rear right- is that the way these amps are SUPPOSED to be set-up to run speakers? I've got a prob here: when I fade the power full rear, I can balance to either side & get full power out of each speaker, as I should, BUT, when I fade full front, I can get full power out of BOTH speakers by balancing full right OR to the middle, BUT, when I balance full left, I get no sound from EITHER front- it HAS to be a wiring prob, but, I can't figure it out- the brigding capability is #1 & #2 together, AND, #3 & #4 together, but, I'm not touching this at all, as I'm simply trying to run all 4 speakers off the amp.. any more input would be greatly appreciated... Thanks a lot Robby |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 239 Registered: Jun-04 | While some resonance would create more "ambient" bass, I'm still 100% confident it's a power issue. Remember, speakers are mechanical devices, and what we usually refer to as power is actually work. Your voltage cannot make the 6x8s work as designed. Assuming they have a 4mm Xmax, you're barely going to be pushing 1mm at half-volume and that power. That's not enough to move air and generate deep bass. Seriously, try bridging the amp (shouldn't take but five minutes). I'll bet you prove me right. I'll also bet your rear 6.5s are < 60W RMS. Looking at that PQ10, it's pretty confusing. Are you sure you don't have Bridge 1-2 on? -Matt |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 3 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- thanks a lot for the input... I'm almost positive I don't have #1 & #2 bridged but will check- I'm really screwed up BAD when it comes to bridging- I've heard a bunch of definitions of bridging that all counter one another... for example- I have two RCA cables- one runs two speakers & the other runs two speakers from the HU to the amp- IF one of these RCA's is hooked up incorrectly, then, things will be screwed up, right? The correct way is to use one RCA for the front set of speakers & the other RCA for the back set of speakers, correct? THEN, I would wire the amp to the speakers so that #1 & #2 are the front left & right & #3 & #4 are the rear left & right- is this correct? IF so, then, when bridging, I would UNHOOK ALL 4 speakers from the amp- I would leave the RCA's alone, right? Then, I would wire the left front speaker to chan 1 & bridge #1 & #2 & then wire the RIGHT FRONT speaker to chan 3 & bridge #3 & #4- is this correct? The only prob I would have would be that they would NOW be in mono mode, but, that would still tell me if your power theory is correct, right? IF it IS a lack of power, then, I would rather use other speakers, but, could I then get more bass by going to a 5.25 seperate than the 6x8 seperates, considering it would take less power to run the 5.25s? The 6x8's are going to be a PITA to finish where they are, which is why I'm so upset at this time, as I'm not even sure they will work AFTER I DO go through the trouble- I had to build wooden adapter frames to mount them (mimicking the factory plastic mouting frames for the 5.25 & 3's) & the door pockets will not go on over them- this will take a lot of work to fix- but, if I go out & buy a new set of speakers, I'll be even MORE upset if they don't work any better... It's just sort of a PITA to do the wiring stuff where the amp is, etc- I need to know WHAT to do (how) before starting- I've got a cold, but, will mess w/it in a few hours when it cools down outside. Someone just told me that my prob is probably the wiring- that if I'm not getting the balance to work correctly when faded to the fronts, that, I need to find out what the prob is there BEFORE I can fix anything else? Does this make sense or should I try running the fronts in mono first? thanks a lot for all your input, Robby BTW- here is a pic of the 5.25 stock speaker under hte armrest, as it should be, only THIS speaker set does not include the 3" mid w/3-way x-over- it just has this 5.25 & the tweet is at top of door- the next pic is the same type stock speaker laying beside the wooden frame I made for the 6x8 w/speaker installed in it- hope this helps a tiny bit... The amp is underneath the glove box at the floor board- I'm about to mount it to the underside of the glove box to give it more breathing room & doubt I could get much larger of an amp there...  |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 5 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- thanks a lot for the input... I'm almost positive I don't have #1 & #2 bridged but will check- I'm really screwed up BAD when it comes to bridging- I've heard a bunch of definitions of bridging that all counter one another... for example- I have two RCA cables- one runs two speakers & the other runs two speakers from the HU to the amp- IF one of these RCA's is hooked up incorrectly, then, things will be screwed up, right? The correct way is to use one RCA for the front set of speakers & the other RCA for the back set of speakers, correct? THEN, I would wire the amp to the speakers so that #1 & #2 are the front left & right & #3 & #4 are the rear left & right- is this correct? IF so, then, when bridging, I would UNHOOK ALL 4 speakers from the amp- I would leave the RCA's alone, right? Then, I would wire the left front speaker to chan 1 & bridge #1 & #2 & then wire the RIGHT FRONT speaker to chan 3 & bridge #3 & #4- is this correct? The only prob I would have would be that they would NOW be in mono mode, but, that would still tell me if your power theory is correct, right? IF it IS a lack of power, then, I would rather use other speakers, but, could I then get more bass by going to a 5.25 seperate than the 6x8 seperates, considering it would take less power to run the 5.25s? The 6x8's are going to be a PITA to finish where they are, which is why I'm so upset at this time, as I'm not even sure they will work AFTER I DO go through the trouble- I had to build wooden adapter frames to mount them (mimicking the factory plastic mouting frames for the 5.25 & 3's) & the door pockets will not go on over them- this will take a lot of work to fix- but, if I go out & buy a new set of speakers, I'll be even MORE upset if they don't work any better... It's just sort of a PITA to do the wiring stuff where the amp is, etc- I need to know WHAT to do (how) before starting- I've got a cold, but, will mess w/it in a few hours when it cools down outside. Someone just told me that my prob is probably the wiring- that if I'm not getting the balance to work correctly when faded to the fronts, that, I need to find out what the prob is there BEFORE I can fix anything else? Does this make sense or should I try running the fronts in mono first? thanks a lot for all your input, Robby BTW- here is a pic of the 5.25 stock speaker under hte armrest, as it should be, only THIS speaker set does not include the 3" mid w/3-way x-over- it just has this 5.25 & the tweet is at top of door- the next pic is the same type stock speaker laying beside the wooden frame I made for the 6x8 w/speaker installed in it- hope this helps a tiny bit... The amp is underneath the glove box at the floor board- I'm about to mount it to the underside of the glove box to give it more breathing room & doubt I could get much larger of an amp there...  |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | well... not sure what happened here.... anyway, the comparison pic.... well, it's 640 X 480- no clue how to shrink it.... sorry... probably doesn't matter much anyway... |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 7 Registered: Jul-04 | btw- the specs for the 6800's are: 90w RMS & 270w Max- the 6.5s were 75w RMS (I'm sure) & 275w max (I'm pretty sure)- so, you are right that the 6x8's DO need a little more power.... |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 241 Registered: Jun-04 | Okay, that amp is 4-channel standard, but I'm pretty sure it's a 2-channel stereo bridge (then 1x175 mono bridged). Either way, your bridging wiring description was right, and you should be able to tell whether the extra (doubled) power makes a difference. What are/were the model on the 6.5s? I kinda doubt it's the RCAs, since you'd have to have them splitting over each other to get them wired incorrectly. Maybe the 1-2 bridge is even stuck (internally). Let us know how it goes... we'll be here for you. ;) -Matt |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 8 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- Fist, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input... thanks a LOT! What do you mean by "4-ch standard amp," etc? I don't know much about it, BUT, there is a switch to bridge #1 & #2 & the switched "on" mode, says "mono" beside it- then, there's an identical switch for #3 & #4... Does this tell you anything? I'm pretty clueless when it comes to bridging, but, I assumed that the particular channels the amp bridged together kind of dictated which speaker should be hooked to which channel- if it bridged #1 & #3 together & #2 & #4 together, then, things would be different I would assume... I've got Infinity Kappa coax 6.5's in the rear- for awhile, I ran them off chan 3 & 4 of the amp & I ran the stock fronts off the Kenwood deck- it sounded decent this way, actually, BUT: I seem to remember something funny occuring w/the bridging although I was not trying to bridge anything. To get sound to balance correctly from side to side in the rear, I had to hook one end of one RCA to the corresponding end of the OTHER RCA cable & vice versa- not sure this makes sense, BUT- I had 2 cables- 4 total ends- only SHOULD have been using ONE of these cables since I was running the front two channels directly off the HU- the red from ONE RCA cable was being hooked to the red of the OTHER RCA cable, that shouldn't have had been used anyway- I was trying to leave all 4 ends hooked to the back of the deck, so I wouldn't have to get back in there again & just leave them UNhooked to the amp, but, ended up having to mix-match them like this- a more "stereo-oriented" friend said it made absolutely no sense- told me that it might "work itself out" when I wired the fronts into the amp to use all 4 channels- when I added the 6800's, I straightened out the RCAs the way they were supposed to be- am considering mixing & matching again, to try, but, it get's confusing & becomes quite a PITA- MAYBE what you are saying is correct- maybe there IS an internal prob. This worries me b/c I really don't have $ for a good 4-ch amp right now... Is there a way to bridge the amp to run the rear speakers AND use ALL 4 of my HU channels to run the two front speakers, OR, vice versa? The Kenwood is 22w RMS (47w peak), so, if I could somehow double them up to just run one pair of speakers, then I'd have 44RMS/ch, which should be more than my ADS amp... would this work? I TRIED to mount CDT CL61s up front- they were just too big- had they been ~1" shallower- I MIGHT still have the same prob as now though. I've recently been told that these 6800CS are really not a good choice for front speakers- that the Kappa coaxes I have in the rear are better than the 6800's- I only bought them b/c they were the absolute biggest speaker I could possibly squeeze up front, they were cheap, I like the other infinity's, &, they were components... I need to get out there & mess w/it in a little while... thanks Robby |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 9 Registered: Jul-04 | BTW- I don't THINK I can bridge all 4 channels into 1- I don't see any switches for it- actually, there isn't even a "power" switch or even a light indicator- the PQ20 is better, stronger amp- a couple of people I've talked to have been familiar w/the PQ20, but, NOT the PQ10- the PQ10 is supposed to be ~HALF the power of the PQ20 & has less capabilities, however, several people I've talked too have said the PQ10 is STILL a pretty decent amp- again, not terribly powerful, but... I had a place test it to see if it worked, before I hooked it up, but, I don't think that told me anything about it possibly haveing some sort of internal prob... |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 246 Registered: Jun-04 | Ah, you're right about its bridging capabilities: it's 4x45, 2x90, or 2x45+1x90 (tri-mode). About the RCAs, that does sound pretty screwed up; if you lived closer I'd offer to check it out in person. There's still most likely an internal problem, since if it were just wiring you shouldn't be able to get your rears balance to work. Your best bet, then, is to change from the 6800s to a set like the Boston FS60s ($135 on eBay), which operate as low as 15W. Then sell your 6800s on eBay and keep the cycle going. -Matt |
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New member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 10 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- thanks again for the help- I wish I could find someone around here who seemed to know as much, to take a look at it- sucks living in this city sometimes... As for the speakers- I'm assuming you mean the FS50, not FS60? the 6.5 will not fit- too wide & deep- the 6X8 6800CS BARELY fits & it is slightly shallower AND narrower. IF 6.5's would have worked, I doubt I'd be in this mess as I would have had TONS of speakers to chose from- unfortunately, the FS50 (EVEN the FS60) have very high frequency ranges- the FS60 goes no lower than 60Hz- my Kappas are 44Hz & the 6800CS are 49HZ- if anything, I would like no higher than ~50HZ if I can help it- any suggestions fitting these criteria? I'm not sure EXACTLY where the line is for FEELING bass, but, again, I had no trouble feeling it in the 86-89 Integra w/6.5's all around & NO amps & a WEAK (10W RMS HU).... Thanks again, Robby |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 11 Registered: Jul-04 | BTW- Do MBQ's get by w/REALLY low wattage or something? Why was I able to hear such INCREDIBLE bass from ONE pair of 6.5 MBQ Premiums w/NO amp- just a simple Alpine Moffset 60w peak deck? It had as much bass as most small subs I've heard & the sound absolutely blew away most high-$ systems w/multiple amps, subs, etc- most systems w/all thje extra stuff seem to sound worse overall & NEVER seem to be worth the $$$ based on what I've seen- I think it takes a lot more thought & trial & error experimentation to really set a system up properly for both power & SQ- Is hte Alpine just an INCREDIBLY strong deck? It is ~30W RMS/ch- I'm thinking my ADS would have trouble braking that- would it be simpler to just buy one of the Alpine decks & chuck my amp & Kenwood deck? I'm not too thrilled w/the Kenwood anyway, short of it's color schemes- to be honest, there aren't any decks I really like the looks of nowdays- the Kenwood beiing the best of the worst- PARTLY depends on the particular car though... ALSO- a friend has a Contour w/Sony Explode deck & factory speakers (they are all 6x9)- his system is AMAZING consdeiring it's incredible simplicty- if MY car sounded like that, I wouldn't even worry about trying to get more- funny thing is, I hear only bad things about Sony- his has run fine for >4yrs now & he's had NO probs at ALL w/it- he paid less than $200 for the deck- I paid $350 for my Kenwood, the amp came w/the car, & I've put at LEAST another $350 in my audio, & I'm going NUTS!!! go figure.... |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 249 Registered: Jun-04 | Yes, there are some MBQs that have very low power requirements for decent excursion... same goes with those Bostons I mentioned (yes, the SL50s would work just as well). There's also a set of Polks that have super-low power standards. It all comes down to how the speaker "motor" was designed. If they expect/demand 60W RMS to move, you just won't get there with 15W. If they're designed to move reasonably with 12W, then pumping 24W into them (like your friend) is going to make them sound amazing (if they don't blow). Like I said before, with speakers this small and shallow, about all you can expect is a 4mm Xmax (distance the piston moves). If you're only providing enough power to move them 1mm or less, you simply will not get real bass. Top that off with the fact that your amp may roll off below 80Hz (most do), and you're not going to be moving them at all. eBay is our friend. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 13 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- I didn't mess w/this last night- I'm going to tonight though- I think I see your point- it DOES sound like I COULD have a FEW issues, BUT, it's ALSO sinking in about the power issue- I just wrote a repsonse to another thread you had answered in about that- I had had similar probs when trying to run the rear kappas off a HU- just DID NOT WORK- I had ALSO tried to run some older Kappa components AND some Polks- they sounded aweful- MUCH worse than factory- I just never realized that these speakers, the 6800CS AND Kappas, needed THAT much just to get them going- I was under the impression that the ADS would be more than enough for decent sound- guess I was wrong(?)- we will see... IF doubling the power makes the 6800CS give good bass, then, I MIGHT try to find a stronger amp- I don't want to tax my car battery/alternator, etc, but, I doubt anything under 100w/ch would really be too much(?)- I'm thiking if doubling the power gets me where I need to be, then, maybe I could find a good 4-ch amp that put out 75-100w- would need recommendations there, as the SIZE is a big issue too... I need to screw w/it for a few hours to find out where to go first- I'll post back here later- thanks a LOT for all your help.... robby |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 250 Registered: Jun-04 | Yeah, those PQ10s seem pretty popular with 944 owners (coincidence?) -- maybe they're "just right"-sized for where you've got it mounted. I've been trying to think of other amps with that small of a footprint that won't break the bank. PPI has one, but it's $450... So, how big is the space the Infinity is currently mounted in, and how big are the "rear cargo cubbies" that it seems a lot of 944 owners put amps in? It looks like most of the SQ competitive 944s have the amps mounted right under the rear window; not the best spot, but I entirely understand the crunch for space in there. Yeah, a lot of people don't "get" the power:driver relationship. Speakers are motors; pistons that drive in and out based on applied current. Underpowering is like trying to turn a V8 crankshaft with four cylinders. It might turn, but is not how it was designed work. -Matt |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 266 Registered: Jun-04 | Where in Tennessee are you? -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 14 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- I'm in Knoxville... Not sure WHY 944 owners pick the PQ10- for where they normally mount them, there's enough room for about 10 of them- I mean, space is NO PROBLEM... I want small b/c I want LIGHT- 951's are HEAVY cars- well, not heavy compared to new cars w/10.000 air bags & navigation BS, etc... The 951 weighs 3160lbs TEST- most people don't understsand THAT concept either- most of the Civics people are running around in are at LEAST 200lbs heavier than the drivers think... Curb is a BS weight spec... Anyway, I bought 3ft RCA's to mount the amp underneath the dash- I've never seen someone mount an amp under the rear window, UNLESS you are referring to the HATCH window(?)- is rear widnwo, they'd HAVE to put in in the rear seat b/c there's less than 6" of depth under the rear window (1/4 window)- the PQ10 I have came w/the car- I was hell-bent against using an amp- bought the Kenwood b/c it had decent power 22w RMS 47w peak- I had listened to the 60w Alpine run the 6.5 MBQ's & give more bass than most subs I've heard- I'm just not impressed w/most systems- SUCH overkill that people lose SQ- around here anyway. Total distortion, etc... Anyway, the Alpine MUST be A LOT more powerful than claimed, OR, the Kenwood is much LESS power than claimed,or BOTH, AND those MBQ's just don't NEED much??? I decided to use the amp b/c it WAS relatively small & light & I decided to mount it REALLY CLOSE to the HU- it's on the passenger floor, so RIGHT THERE... The Infinity's are mounted in the thing I showed the picture of, above- for refernce, the speaker in that pic is a 5,25 though- of course, it's not the EXACT same frame- I built a thin wooden one to mimmick it- I can send pics, but, not on this board- wont let me... OK- the armrest sticks out ~1.5" or so- the panel sinks in a tiny bit more- there is a HOLE in the panel for the round part of the magnet to sink into a TINY bit- 1/8" or so.... the TOTAL depth is not quite the depth of the speaker- ~2.5" MAX- then, the side to side distance is less than 1 foot long & the whole panel tapers downward, SOOOO- you have a total volume of less than 2.5" (deep) X 6" (high) X 12" (long)- THIS is why I'm worried about not having enough room... The rear cubbies are 2 ft deep, 14" wide, 10" across or so- one is slightly bigger than the other- the FAR rear one is for the spare, so it;s big too, just shaped differently. Most people cut the carpet above the cubbies & ruin it- my PO did, unfortunately- I've sealed it up, but, that carpet runs >$500/piece... I've seen people mount speakers there by cutting holes- no prob on getting good sized speakers thre- some run subs there- BUT- that would viod EVERY SINGLE bit of work I've done to go that route- I like the 6.5"S where they aer in the rear, which if I used the rear carpet, would make them MID speakers- I'm considering doing this thnouhg- would NOT run fronts at ALL then, b/c I only have capability to run 4- channels- UNLESS I can find a way to make ALL 4 kenwood channels run 2 speakers???? THEN I could run some front speakers maybe? Too many options, BUT, those 6.5's are A MFPITA to get too- they sound great anyway- the fronts are the prob & if I go w/5.25's, I'm afraid I'll HAVE to mount something in the rear & IF I do that, why not just run ONE sub or Bazzoka, or something INSTEAD of two speakers, etc etc etc... ALL i want is a simple system... doesn't seem like much, but evidently.... any input you have would be GREATLY appreciated- I can e-mail ANY pics you need, directly too.... thanks robby |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 15 Registered: Jul-04 | AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!! I just looked- the bridge IS switched ON on 1 + 2- this makes NO sense though--- I KNOW I've HAD to switch that thing certain ways to get ANY sound AT ALL several times- even so, bridging 1 & 2 doesn't make sense- or does it? I mean, ch- 1 is front left, ch- 2 is front right? IF I bridged them together, then, I should ONLY get power from ONE of the speakers, right? Shouldn't it be ch-1 (front left)? IF so, then, ch-2, front right, should not work no matter WHAT the balance/fader is set too... right??? this is why I HAVE to know what chan is suposed dto be what- I mean, for instance- I have a HU- it has 4-RCA inputs- EACH one is labeled a certain channel- IF I plug chan 1 from the deck to chan 1 of the amp & chan 2 of the deck to chan 2 of the amp, & so on.... THEN, IF the speaker locations for the AMP are set differently than the speaker locations for the deck, then, they will all be screwed up... setting the balance for the deck might be fading the sound & fading the sound on hte deck might balance the sound, etc... if it weren't >90' & 95% humidity out there for the last 7 days, I'd go out & mess w/it.... |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 16 Registered: Jul-04 | OK!!!! It's a good thing this forumn wont let one post 4-letter words, OR, I would fill about 10 pages of screens w/some VERY original ones about right now.... I just screwed around w/that thing for about an hour- need to take a shower now, so I will be breif- I can't see what bridging does- I unhooked the rear RCA cables so I could deal w/JUST the fronts- I pulled my HU to MAKE SURE I had each RCA cable marked correctly, b/c my HU splits them front to rear- I have ONE RCA hooked to the front channels & ONE RCA hooked to the rears- well- when I went to front only, I faded ALL power to the front speakers w/my HU & had RCA's hooked ONLY to the front channels- this is 1 & 2- left = 1 & right = 2- if I balanced ALL power to the right, ch-2, I would lose ALL power- If I put all power to the left, I would get power out of the left...IN STEREO- IF in MONO, I would get sound from BOTH channels- ch-1 & ch-2 EVEN though I had sent power to the LEFT only(!?). When I UNHOOKED the front RCA's & went to the rears, I got the same sort of thing, EXCEPT- when I was playing w/fronts only, I noticed a strange thing- IF I pulled ch-1 RCA out while TRYING to balance sound far right (ch-2) then, I would get sound from ch-2- IF I plugged it in part way, it would work, but, NOT when I plugged it ALL the way- I then decided to use the REAR RCA's for the FRONT- so, I faded ALL sound rearward (which now means the sound goes ALL the way FORWARD- ch1 & ch 2) & it worked correctly- by this, I can only assume (based on my OBVIOUS lack of stereo knowledge) that I have a screwy RCA cable...??? They are 3ft long Rockford Fosgate cables that I bought when I got the 6.5" Kappa speakers- they are VERY new... The only thing that still confuses me is the bridging thing- I mean, bridge is MONO- that's the way it's worded- I CANNOT bridge 1 & 3 OR 2 & 4 OR 1 & 4, etc.... I can ONLY bridge 1 & 2 together, AND, I can ONLY bridge 3 & 4 together. So, if you have a moment... IF I wanted to run my 6800CS's & BRIDGE them like you had advised (temporarily) & possibly run the rears off somwething else- let's just ASSUME... ch-1 = front left ch-2 = front right ch-3 = rear left ch-4 = rear right SOOO- I would UNHOOK ALL SPEAKER WIRES EXCEPT ch-1 (front left)- I would WIRE the ch-2 (front RIGHT) SPEAKER to CH-3. THEN, w/NO speaker wire in either ch-2 OR ch-4, I would simply switch the bridge switches to MONO- for 1+2 & for 3+4, correct??? Would I LEAVE ALL RCA's plugged in in their respective places??? OR, would I disconnect one of them or what? AM I just completely off here? I would think that THIS would ADD the power from ch-2 to ch-1 & make ch-1 DBL power for front left. Then it would ADD power from ch-4 to ch-3 & give DBL power to the front right speaker (which would NOW be ch-3 of course)??? I've been told from almost the exact oppostite, to almost everything inbetween... Anyway, it LOOKS like I need to at LEAST get one new RCA cable & go from there.... thanks again for all your help Matt- I REALLY do appreciate it... Robby |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 272 Registered: Jun-04 | I had a sneaking suspicion that bridge was on. Okay, bridging usually applies over both sets of terminals, but gets handled differently internally. Effectively, you were presenting your bridged "FRONT" channel with an 8-ohm load. That's a no-no, and possibly why they sounded even more underpowered than expected. On the PQ10, the bridge works like this (terminals numbered left to right): #1 - not used #2 - Left Speaker Negative #3 - not used #4 - Left Speaker Positive #5 - Right Speaker Positive #6 - not used #7 - Right Speaker Negative #8 - not used RCA#1 - Left speaker input RCA#2 - not used RCA#3 - not used RCA#4 - Right speaker input Again, I'm siding with the amp being "stuck" in a bridge mode somewhere; I highly doubt your RCAs are crossing signals -- that's virtually impossible. So try it wired as I outlined above, and tell me if it doesn't sound good and if left/right balance works. If it does work OK, then at least we know the amp is good at 2x90. Then we can go back to pathologically figure out what's up with 4-way. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 17 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- I'm going to go down there & mess w/it again in a little while- first off, I'm thinking the REAL prob is not the bridge, but, the RCA- not sure if you caught that part in my book.. :-) also, how did you figure that mess out w/the bridging? That CAN'T be a standard way to hook speakers up to bridge them can it? You see, I'm going to have to check, but, IF i'm understanding you correctly- you are numbering, 1-8, the speaker wire inputs, correct? So...across the board, at THIS point, in regular mode, they are below- in parenthasis are what you are showing me to plug in, so: #1- front LEFT + #2- front LEFT - (LEFT -) #3- front RIGHT + #4- front RIGHT - (LEFT +) #5- REAR left + (RIGHT +) #6- REAR left - #7- REAR right + (RIGHT -) #8- REAR right - IF I plug them in the way you're showing, then, I'm making #4 (+), when it was normally (-) & I am making #7 (-) when it was normally (+). I understand I'm taking what was normally the rear channels & making them power the right FRONT speaker, whereas the front channels are now powering the LEFT speaker, but, am I supposed to be reversing the polarity? Is that the right word? +/-? So, back to the RCA- the ONLY thing I did NOT do was remove the "bad" RCA & hook the "good" RCA up from the front HU channels to the front amp channels- I will later, but, when using the rear channel of the deck to tune the front channels of the amp & run the front speakers, it sounded fine... THANKS A LOT for all your help- I can't tell you how much I appreciate this... I've been going CRAZY w/this thing for MONTHS now- I keep messing w/it for a few hours, hoping to get it worked out, then, don't get anywhere & end up having to leave it alone for a few weeks, etc... Plus, the few people who've looked at it in person have, more than likely, made it worse... Thanks Robby |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 279 Registered: Jun-04 | Going by the PQ10 diagram I see, it's: +--+ +--+ Do let me know if that's not the case for yours; I'd be surprised, but it's possible. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 18 Registered: Jul-04 | Great! I always feel SMART at times like this... I've got someone at LEAST 500 miles away who knows more about my amp than I do... YES, you are RIGHT! EXACTLY like you said- I DO seem to remember having a prob when hooking up the speakers that COULD have had something to do w/that- I THINK I reversed the +/- on one (or more) when first wiring them- I need to go through & check them all again, just to make positively sure they are right- I'm 99.9% sure, but... I marked all the negative wires w/a small piece of electrical tape to try to keep them straight- annoying really- why doesn't stereo wire come w/one side a dif color? Would really help I would think... Also, getting to the rear speakers may be tougher- I'm not exactl sure how far back in there I have the X-overs mounted- I MAY be able to get to them & check w/out much trouble, when I re-wire the speakers like you're saying to test the bridging, but, that is all a job for later, when it cools down a little- it's probably ~92' @ 95% right now... It FEELS like it's ~120' @ ~150% humidity... Thanks, &, I'll get back to you later after I've done a little moree work... |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 19 Registered: Jul-04 | Hey Matt- where did you find this diagram anyway? I'd kind of like to see it- any type of specs or online manual, of any kind would be cool- the amp was in the car when I bought it, so, I have NOTHING to go by except the amp itself... I'll do some searching right now to try to find more about it, but, when you read this, please let me know where you found the info.... Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 282 Registered: Jun-04 | I found a drawing and a terminal-side picture on eBay. The problem was more than when you hit the bridging mode on 1-2, there was a *really* unpredictable situation internally. It's basically at the discretion of the designer(s) of how the load got handled. Best guess is that you had one speaker running on an inverted signal and the balance only controlled the positive bridged lead. Most speaker wire does have a white (solid or dashed) line on one lead. I've seen it used for either, just so long as it's the same polarity at both ends. -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 20 Registered: Jul-04 | Yeah, I know the ones on e-bay- my amp is identical... There are a couple of different listings on the wattage though- I've seen as low as 35w/ch & as high as 45w/ch, but, everyone seems to say it's underrated- I'd love to know what the RMS really was, as well as the REAL peak... The speaker wire I have came from The Zeb (as did the Rockford Fosgate RCA's)- the wire is this blue stuff & has white writing on one side & not the other, but, it's very light & the words are pretty far apart, so, it's sort of a pain... Still, regardless of everything we've covered, it seems that one of the RCA's HAS to be bad(?)- I mean, if I used the other RCA & it worked, while the original one only worked when it was HALF way in, but, not when completely plugged in(?). What I'm saying is- the rears worked fine, THEN, when I used the rear RCA's to run the front speakers, the fronts worked fine too- unless there is some sort of internal prob w/the HU- I'll know that when I check it later- I'll remove the RCA from the rear channels of the HU & hook it from the front channels of the HU to the front speakers (amp). I'll mess w/it here a little later & RE-post... Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 283 Registered: Jun-04 | Sorry, I thought the RCA thing was still when channels 1 & 2 were bridged, which would have explained everything up to that point. Are you saying that even verifying: 1. The speakers wires are correct polarity 2. Bridging is definitely off on both sides That the rear channel RCAs *properly* drive the front channels when connected to the front inputs on the amp? You're 100% sure? -Matt |
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Bronze Member Username: RobbyTN Post Number: 21 Registered: Jul-04 | Matt- I played w/it again tonight- THIS time I completely DISconnected the "bad" RCA to make sure it wasn't some other varaible- when UNbridged, everything is working fine on the FRONT OR BACK 2 channels- balance, fade, etc... 100%... the only thing I can't do is to make ALL 4 channels work correctly, YET, b/c I need another RCA... it is very strange to me- like I had said- I figured this out b/c I had FADED FULL forward & then tried to BALANCE L to R- I had pulled the REAR RCA's from the amp to try narrow down- THEN, while going back & forth, I noticed that I STILL could NOT get sound out of EITHER FRONT speaker when I had BOTH RCA's plugged in, when I BALANCED full right- I COULD get full power out of BOTH when when I BALANCED full left- it ALSO sounded like I had full power (might NOT have been FULL, but, I DEFINATELY had sound & couldn't tell a dif) w/BALANCE CENTERED- I tried reversing the ends of the RCAs on the amp, thinking I COULD have ch1 & ch2 backwards, although I knew I didn't I & didn't see how THAT would cause this to happen anyway- well, while I was screwing w/the RCA ends, I noticed that I when I had BALANCE full right (no sound from EITHER speaker) that I would get sound from both speakers when I had the RCA BARELY connected- if I pushed it on in,it would kill the sound from both- I'm pretty sure that this only happpned when I had the BRIDGE ON, but, I experimented w/so many dif things, that I cant remember for SURE- Does this make ANY sense? A bad RCA causing this somehow? I'm not asking for an explanation, but, just curious- I plan to buy a new 3ft RCA tommorrow from a local place if possible- Are Rockford fosgate RCA's normally of good quality? If NOT, would you recommend a good brand, AND, SHOULD I change the OTHER RCA then too, or, should I leave it? IF they ARE of poor quality, then, I'm wondering if it might be worth changing BOTH, while it's still relatively simple to get to the back of the HU... any input? thanks again for all your help... I'm about to try to include a pic of the 6800CS as it is mounted in the door, to compare w/the OTHER pic I posted of the 5.25.... Did NOT work- they were a hair too big... Do you mind if I e-mail you directly? I THINK I saw a post of your's, trying to contact several people, w/your address included? It would be much quicker than going back & forth on this & stop wasting bandwidth... THANKS AGAIN for all your help Matt... Robby |
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Silver Member Username: MattlBolingbrook, Illinois USA Post Number: 294 Registered: Jun-04 | I'm still fairly confident that the balancing issues were only before the bridged channels were fixed. However, I am glad we got that part completely resolved. Any "upgrade" set of RCA/interconnect cables would be OK at that length. I prefer the Phoenix Gold twinlinks for their easy-grip bullets. Feel free to contact me ofline (matt@mattL.com); this has probably gone beyond being useful to 99.999% of the community. -Matt |
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