How do you buy and sell audio/video?

J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 03:26 GMT In the Home Theater Set Up and Planning section of this forum, Stevie Dee posted a question that I started to answer. There was a miscommunication and I blasted Stevie. I was called biased and bipolar. Neither, in my opinion is the case, it was merely a mistake that was made in communication between Stevie and myself. Please refer to the thread "Set up of a basic home cinema" for more details. In the meantime I have posted a reply to two comments that were made in response to my suggestions. This, I feel, brings up a point that affects everyone on this forum. How is audio/video sold and how do you go about buying the products you do purchase. As there are apparently a few A/V salespeople who inhabit this forum along with people who have been at this for a while and who have spent some serious money there should be a discussion that lets both sides of the fence see what the other sees. Believe me, the life of a audio/video salesperson is no bed of roses. As I have no right to bring other respondents messages to this site, I would refer you to the above mentioned thread to get yourself up to speed on what has been discussed so far. Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 07:48 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good for you, Jacob. Glad "you" feel better. But as someone who did see this attitude in customers ("I can buy it anywhere") for 30 years I have come to recognize a customer who feels a salesperson is not there to assist but merely to show them what to buy so the "customer" can go find it cheaper elsewhere. 99% of the time the lower price has no time invested since I already spent time demonstrating the product (may even be a guy with no store, just a garage with a phone. I once took in a Marantz reciever that had been purchased from A TIRE STORE. How much help do you think those salsepeople were? Why do you think they were trading it in for something new? Yeah, you can buy it anywhere!) So, yes, I am biased. Any salesperson would prefer to have a customer that is knowledgeable, well informed and has an idea what they are doing/looking for. That customer is often open to discourse during the sales process. And all salespeople should be knowledgeable, well informed and have an idea what they are doing/looking for. It makes everyone better. But IF the salesperson is well trained, attentive to your needs (it's called the qualifying step in ANY sale, it has to be there and is almost always the way to see if the salesperson is a professional or some fool thinking this is an easy job [cause it is not]. If they don't ask a few questions you might as well walk away because they do not have your interests in mind), there may be something that the customer has not considered for whatever reason. Usaully because the customer has other things on their mind and does not live with HiFi all day, every day. And if the customer comes in and says, "I want XYZ and don't give me any thing else", they often don't have their own best intentions in mind: it's called the demonstration part of a sale and should, in almost all cases, be there or something has not gone according to plan A and B. You will not get an argument from me that many, but not all, salespeople are lazy, many are stupid and a few are antagonistic (racist) toward the people that are paying their livelyhood. If that is the case you find (Best Buy, anyone? "Experts" at Best Buy?) then you should not give that store, or at least that salesperson your money. But, have you ever noticed the dramatic turn over in salespeople at that type of store. Why do you think that is? It ain't because the guy made so much money he's off living on an island now. The process of a sale is a two way street with each party giving and taking a little. Salespeople usually get some training in their part, customers, unfortunately, seldom have any training in their part other than what they see others doing or feel they need to do to protect their own egos. It ain't biased, it is a fact. Salespeople know this and, if they are good, they learn to cope. Hopefully the salesperson knows their job and product better than you since you don't do it all the time. You would not hire an automobile mechanic to design and build your house, you will seek out someone who has special talents that come from experience and knowledge. You will not have that architect/contractor take out your appendix. The same should apply to the sales process. Whether you are spending the price of an operation or just coming in for a chat. Too many times on this forum I sense a feeling that the salesperson should get *%!@#^%&! If you have a lousy salesperson, I agree. But if you find the best in their field, and you do your part well, it is unlikely they will treat you like a red headed step child whether you have purchased from them or not. Superfecta says he does not act that way to his customers and no one should. It ain't biased, it is a fact. If I was harsh to Stevie (I doubt I hurt Stevie's feelings, he's a big boy) it was primarily because there is no point in me telling him how much he should spend on a wire ($9.95, $109.95 or $999.95), or what equipment to buy (despite the numerous posts on this forum when someone says I have just bought so and so and someone writes to say you should really consider XYZ brand). He should pay what a reasonable dealer is asking (service included, even on a cable) and he should buy what he has access to. If he can fly to Rome to buy a piece of equipment, he should buy what he thinks sounds the best for his system (service included). Not what somebody on a forum suggests. As I said he needs a specific screen for his individual needs, that is something I could tell him over the net if he gave me lots of information, but I am not going to install it and if he didn't like my choice (somebody on a forum told hin he really should have looked at XYZ screen) what is he going to do? The worst situations I have been in is where a client buys from several dealers (usually to save a buck), has it installed by someone else (usually to save a buck) and then has a problem. No one wants to help because it is easier and often correct to blame the other guy's equipment/installation and so the problem gets kicked around till the customer finally gets frustrated and gives up on HiFi all together. Those problems are usually very easily avoided by using common sense and seeking help from a professional in the first place. I spent 30 years in the profession and I considered it a reputable profession despite the number of less than perfect people I met. My effort was always to help the client but THEY often got in the way. Quite often I made a sale to someone the other salespeople had brushed off because the customer responded they were not going to buy that day. I took the time to let them look and ask questions and make up their own mind. Maybe it did take several visits, it was their perogative. It is how I did business, not everyone does the same. It ain't biased, it is fact. Next time you're in a store, not Best Buy, ask the salesperson (audio, cars, jewelry) about the worst customer they ever met. You should take a lunch with you because if they have done this for a while they can talk about customers for a long time. Now, as far as my atitude toward Stevie, if I told him he should buy a Honda Civic coupe to haul around the Little League team and he should pay no more than $2000, with an extended warranty and free oil changes, what good does that do? The advice he was seeking was just as ridiculous. He needs professional help and he should find it without prejudices placed in the way by me, 1000 miles away. There is a reason a store ignores certain people. They shouldn't but sometimes they do. It ain't biased, it's a fact. Stevie and everyone else who wants an answer that a dealer is best suited to answer ("I can't get XYZ reciever to get DTS, "How long a cable can I run",etc.) should find a really good dealer and give them your business not the guy "anywhere" in a garage with a phone. If Superfecta or Jacob feel that is biased or "bipolar" you need to rethink how you do your own business and apply the same rules to your audio purchases. I can't imagine anyone would like to have someone suggest they do not do their job well. Unfortunately, that is how many customers treat salespeople even before the salesperson can greet them. Watch as customers walk past a salesperson or intentionally ignore them (salespeople do the same and should loose their job for it) because they are intimidated by someone who might suggest something they might need or, heaven forbid, try to sell them something. Bottom line, if a store is less than helpful, don't give them your money. If a store is less than helpful, SOMETIME, sometime it is not the store but the customer who has an attitude. And Jacob, it's not "Are you too good for me?", it is "Am I too good for you?". That is the proper phrasing of that question. Look through the forum and see how many people I have gone bipolar on, I try to help but some people are beyond it. I don't feel better now, thank you. Anyone care to respond?
KEGGER Silver Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 383 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 17:59 GMT jan for my buying needs and wants i do a lot of internet research and narrow down my options then go to the stores to check out the products. and it is very benificial to have a good/knowlagable/friendly salesperson. but many times you get the guys that think they are better then you. even on hear on this website even you get the guys who sold or sell audio or the audiofile who thinks they know everything and you don't know any. so they talk down to you and thrust their oppinion at you instead of actually listening to what you want or need. noone wants to feel inferior or be around someone who is all high and mighty on themselves and often with audio people come accross that way. it seems different than any other type of hobby. yes their are others that do it too but not to the extent of home audio. basically i think we need to go back to the good old question of how would you want to be treated and act or say things accordingly.weather you are the saleperson or the buyer same thing goes for the person asking for help and the one answering. and don't think that just because you've been doing this for so long that your oppinion is allways correct. as every field is allways changing and what use to be true is no longer the case.this goes for anything in life.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 345 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 18:26 GMT Jan, People (and I admit to being one at times) do tend to disparage salespeople. Unfortunately, the broader sales industry tends to attract the type who have no business doing business and those bitten by them can have long memories. Then, of course, salespeople need to contend with those arrogant customers who believe they are above all, yet maintain their cool and act amicably. Having being in sales off and on for many years, I can only agree with what you say. It's not so easy dealing with the public, however, those special people who show appreciation for the right advice and service given them can make the career satisfying. Many times, the salesperson is a reflection of an unscrupulous management who insist on deceipt and trickery and apply unfair pressure on their staff to get the sale at all costs. Yes, these businesses have a high turnover of sales staff as even moderately ethical people can only endure so much. The job of a professional salesperson is to appear friendly, listen carefully to the customer, ask the right questions and advise according to their needs and budget. Most importantly, the transaction should leave both sides of the party satisfied. A good salesperson knows the value of referral and repeat business. I had a recent experience in the HT/Audio section of a large national chain store recently during one of their "sales." The store was crowded and we had to wait around twenty minutes to be served. When we finally caught the eye of a salesman who had finished attending to a customer, he said to us, "I can give you about two minutes!" He took my subdued tirade with a fixed blank expression and then exited to what I assumed was the lunch room. Naturally we left the store angry, but with our credit cards intact. But, the bottom line is that you can help some of the people some of time, but you can't help all of the people all of the time. As you say: some people are beyond it! Sadly, that is often seen in this forum.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 19:24 GMT So why do all salespeople get lumped into the shyster category? Is it just conditioning? If I go to a restaurant and have a bad meal I don't decide all cooks at every restaurant are bad cooks. I'll probably go back again to the same restaurant to see if they were just having a bad night. If I get a bad haircut I don't decide all stylists are out to take my money. There are numerous examples where bad service/product is given in exchange for your money but people don't make sweeping generalisations about everyone in that field. So what is it about sales that makes it different? Everyone can cite an instance where they got less than they expected for their money but salespeople get a really bad rep from the majority of the public. (And quite often it is the management that is the problem and the salespeople can only make the best of a bad situation until they can find a better job.) I can't begin to tell you how many times I have greeted someone with just a simple Hello only to be totally ignored and treated as though I just didn't exist. To me that is just plain rudeness that shouldn't have to happen.
KEGGER Silver Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 385 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 20:26 GMT sometimes it's just how quickly the salespeople come up to you. like if you walk in the dorr and bumbarded by the questions from salespeople like vultures trying to fight for a piece of meat. i've been in sales my self in a few different areas from computers to golf equipment. and the technichqe that seemed to work the best for was let the customer come in get comfortable and look around a little first then see if they could use some help. it just seems if getting attacked so to speak as soon as you walk in the door your instant reaction is "no thank you just looking" then later after you looked around a bit you could actually use some assistance.where as if they had come up as soon as you walk in the door you get the feeling their out to make a quick sale and rush you into something.
Jacob Saenz Bronze Member Username: Jdsaenz1 Post Number: 32 Registered: Jun-04	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 20:46 GMT Following J's first post here, I had written: J, I see where you're coming from in regards to the viewpoint of sales staff. I agree that customers are either intimidated or just 'turned off' with the thought that a salesperson is going to rip them off. You are also correct in stating that not all salespeople have the same sales technique, and yes, they are there to make money for their store. It's a shame to see pushy, unhelpful, or rude salespeople (I think we've all had our experiences with them), and you're correct, it's a fact that they're out there. And for every salesperson like this, there's the willing, attentive salesperson who's there to treat the customer like gold. Here's the 'bias' part: customers tend to group them all together in the 'Crazy Larry' category, like the first type of salesperson I mentioned. By the sound of it, it would be nice to see more salesmen like yourself. Time and patience is necessary, as well as a positive attitude to help the customer decide and sell the product. And why do they come back? Because they like the way they were treated. I do that sometimes. If store A's salesperson rubbed me the wrong way, but was a little cheaper than store B, whose salesperson was really helpful, I'm buying from store B. I'm not asking a lot here, I just want to make sure that I'm treated fairly and with respect, you know? The flip side of the coin is a good customer vs. a crappy customer. No matter what the salesperson does or says, that customer is going elsewhere. All that time and effort in making the sale is for naught. But that's the salesperson's job, and they must deal with this on a daily basis. Then again, everyone has something unpleasant about their job; everyone. That is a fact. No no, I did mean to say "Are you too good for me"; in other words, "do you think you're better than me." It's irrelevant now, so never mind. But hey now, I know what I'm trying to say. J, I appreciate your response; it reminds me that sales is like two sides of a coin, and that it's just part of life to have good/bad salesmen and good/bad customers. We're all human.
Two Cents Silver Member Username: Two_cents Post Number: 213 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 20:50 GMT There's no way to talk about salesmen in such general terms. The key I've found is to find a good, customer-friendly store and support them. I used to frequent a hi-fi store in Ann Arbor that would set up the equipment you wanted to audition in a private listening room and let you listen as long as you wanted without any sales pressure. The sales people were knowledgable and ready to help when you asked. There were times I just wanted to browse and they left me alone in those instances. The main problem with this store was the lack of selection. If I wanted to check out other brands, I'd have to go to another store that I didn't like as much. At the other end of the spectrum are large chains with sales people who seem to be working on commission or not interested in the customers'needs. I get the same feeling in these stores as I do at a car dealership--a sharp pain in my stomach. I go into a defensive mode because the trust just isn't there. Unless you know exactly what you want, it's better to avoid these retail black holes.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 346 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 23:52 GMT "So why do all salespeople get lumped into the shyster category?" Jan, I don't know why or in fact that they really do. But it seems just about everyone relates 'shyster' salespeople to car sales and perhaps real estate. For years now, here in Australia, salespeople from these two industries, have rated the least trustworthy according to surveys. I guess the same would be in other countries. So maybe, deep down, some people might tend to group that distrust collectively. What about lawyers? Now there's a category that gets tarred with the same brush, but there's many a decent lawyer out there - isn't there?
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 249 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 00:44 GMT When the customer decides: (A) all salespeople are slime, and he is not entitled to make a living. (B) the store is not entitled to make a reasonable profit. (C) they can be as rude and demanding as they want and still expect excellent service. is the exact reason you have the Large Crapola Electronics Chains.........you put all the little, really good specialty stores out of business. DON'T YOU GET IT? You brought it on yourself, and now complain you can't find professional service. Remember the old adage "You get what you pay for", and "The lowest price is not always the best deal". I have to back you all the way on this one Jan.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 03:38 GMT I pray (and I don't do that very often) for the demise of Walmart!
Two Cents Silver Member Username: Two_cents Post Number: 216 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 04:56 GMT J.V. Amen.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 347 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 07:54 GMT I think Rick may have been having a go at me, so I'll set the record straight: I have dealt with no one but the small specialty stores when purchasing for our HT or audio gear since the early 70's. Why? Because of my satisfaction with their service and that I prefer to give my money to the breed in danger of distinction from the conglomerates. My outing to the chain store mentioned in the above post was regarding speaker cable during a supposed "sale". I too agree with you Jan and I wish you had a store here where I live. But, a little tale about the couple of the specialty audio stores I deal with: 1. The NAD/Denon dealer - two totally different versions from the father and son owners about NAD reliability. I auditioned speakers elsewhere and in this store and finally purchased from them our XTi-60's which I think are marvellous. However, the owner told me they were 8ohm impedence and that, although crafted in Denmark, the drivers were made in the US. He got one out of three: They are 6ohm impedence with French made drivers. 2. The Denon/Yamaha dealer where I have purchased most of our gear over the years, could not tell me where the DVD-2900 was made. And when I asked him the difference between that and the DVD-2200, his answer was: "about 10lbs!" Now that would be funny if it wasn't serious. Both these dealers have been in business here for as long as I can remember and while the service has been good, the product knowledge leaves much to be desired. But, one makes do with what is available. What I am getting at is that all things are not equall in the world of buying and selling audio gear. The rudeness directed at salespeople (or anyone for that matter) from some, imo, is the result of the ever lowering standards of morality and manners. They seem to be descending very rapidly into the bowels of the abyss!
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 250 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 10:49 GMT Rantz, I didn't indent to have my post sound as though I was having a go with you. Nothing could be farther from the truth. When I stated "don't you get it?", I was referring to all arrogant/rude consumers. Jan's topic struck a raw nerve with me, that's all, and just leave it at that. Jan, I think it started with Circuit City with me. My specialty store of 20+ years closed, and along they came. Seemed harmless enough at first, although you knew their sales staff couldn't tell a digital processor from a rec_al thermometer. Then along came DVD and DIVX. When they backed DIVX, I saw their true colors, and swore they would never get another dime of my money. I stuck to my guns, and wouldn't as much as buy a set of batteries from them. Enough said.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1305 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 17:30 GMT The best thing we can do on this forum is to say: "consider this issue when you visit each dealer, but discuss your requirements and ideas with him". There are two kinds of unscrupulous dealer. One provides no advice, just a box whose contents are a mystery to him. You can easily tell: his opening questions (if there are any) are usually "how much do you want to spend?" and "which brand do you want?". He then plumbs the depths of his knowledge about current stock. The second may have a retail monopoly on certain brands in his territory, and just sit back and let the reputation of the brand make him money. Some even have this on good brands. This is difficult, because many excellent manufacturers rely on the dealerships (sometimes carefully chosen) to ensure customer satisfaction. Such a dealer is exploiting both the customer and the manufacturer. In contrast, the informed, professional, understanding dealer is worth his weight in gold. You will get hugely better long-term value, more understanding, more pleasure from your equipment, and someone to take responsibility for the goods and for his own advice. In short, you will SAVE money. The problem for the newbie is telling which dealer is which. If they say "because you didn't buy it from us" then just go somewhere else. If they say "no we do not open the boxes; no demos possible" go somewhere else. It is fairly easy to tell very quickly the sort of guy who has the mindset that HE is doing YOU the favour. If they say "What will you use it for?", "What would you like it to do?", "what sort of equipment do you have already?", "what sort of room will you be listening in?", "have you considered....", "let me suggest you listen to this..." then stick around, and take the guy seriously. He is a professional. You will save a lot of money by replying, asking questions, and considering his advice. The clincher is "we always recommend home trial, if this is possible for you; if not we can arrange a demonstration here - you may wish to bring your own dics". Take him up on it. Who buys a car without taking a test drive, or a musical instrument without having a go on it?
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 253 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 19:06 GMT JohnA., While I certainly agree with many of your points, I think the bottom line is: If the lowest price is the most important consideration, you shouldn't expect more than to be handed a box and your sales receipt.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 22:59 GMT Very good, Rick! Very good.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 255 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 23:13 GMT Thank you Jan.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1316 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 23:25 GMT That's it, friends: you get what you pay for. My personal bane has been moving too many times: it takes years to establish knowledge of local dealerships. But I still recommend dealers I bought things from many years ago, very strongly. The internet may actually be beneficial from this point of view: you can read of, and report about, good service and bad service, to a far wider range of potential customers. "...you shouldn't expect more than to be handed a box and your sales receipt" ...and to be told, in the event of problems, that the issue is between you and the manufacturer. I had that treatment once, with a turntable. That dealership folded. The good dealers, where I got excellent advice and quality products that I still use, are still there, and doing well, 12 and 25 years later.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 256 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 00:11 GMT JohnA., Exactly my point my friend. I will gladly pay a few dollars more for friendly service, professional advice, and service after the sale if needed. A good merchant will appreciate this, and that's the start of a trusting long term relationship.
My Rantz Silver Member Username: Myrantz Post Number: 348 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 00:19 GMT Folks, On a post above I bespoke a little critically of my local audio dealers. So, to be fair let me add this experience: Quite a few years back, I purchased a 'top of the line' model DVD player ($1200AU) from one of my dealers mentioned above because I held the view that, apart from more features, the more expensive models last longer - ha!ha!. It came with a 3 yr warranty. One month past the warranty expiry, the laser unit gave in. I called the service centre for an estimate and it was about $450 inc labour. By this time DVD player prices had fallen dramatically and I was, to put it midly, quite livid. I called my dealer and explained my dissatifaction and he agreed wholeheartedly but there was little he could do. But, the little he could do, he did. With a slight document alteration, I had my player fixed on warranty. He went the extra step for me. Six months later, the new replacement unit packed it in. I called my dealer and, not being able to repeat what he did the previous time, he gave me a name and number of the national sales manager of the brand. I called him and he said he would dicuss the matter with his superiors (ha!) and get in touch with the service agents. A few days later I called the service agents and they told me I would have to suffer all costs. I hit the roof, then calmed down and called my dealer. Result: The distributor paid for the second replacement unit and I paid for the labour. Not entirely happy but a good result nethertheless. Thanks to a dealer who went the extra yard - twice. He may not be the most knowledgable in his field, but his service has always been most friendly and exemplary. I would not have had this level of service from a major chain. And it would also not have happened if I had treated my dealer with anything less than the respect he deserved. I have always asked for and received a discount from this dealer, in fact he jokingly cringes every time I walk in to see him, but he knows if he can supply what I am looking for, I deal with him first. If he can't he'll happily recommend where else to go. That's the beauty of establishing a good relationship on both sides. Rick - thanks re previous post. I guess I forgot to take my lithium! :-)
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 258 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 04:07 GMT Rantz, You are very welcome.
FEOT Bronze Member Username: Feot Texas USA Post Number: 28 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 09:36 GMT Jan, Being in the audio/video industry for the past 20 years, I relate to you completely. The term "stroker" was frequently used. Sometimes on a slow day, I would just have fun with them, explaining the details of how speakers worked and their various designs. It was surprising how many would actually tell me they came to the store to get the correct information so they could go home and buy from an online source. Also surprising were the number of those that actually changed their minds after they talked with me. I too did things differently. I was never in the group of ten, leaning against a counter watching a football game on one 65" big screen TV in a store full of TVs. I was always talking to those that said they didn't need help or they were just looking. No one deserves a bad experience at any audio/video store. By me doing things differently myself, I now proudly own a business selling and installing audio/video equipment and my customers appreciate me for the knowledge I possess and the way I explain to them how their equipment works.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1329 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 10:48 GMT FEOT, Good for you, and good for Jan. As a customer, I know we need dealers like you guys more than ever these days. It is a demanding and highly skilled job. It is awesome how much a good dealer can help customers, and how much better value they give, if you look at the whole picture.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 08:26 GMT I don't know if Berny will move his comments over from "Home Theater set up" section, but, if he doesn't everyone please take a look at his response to my question in "Everything delivered..." in that section. Berny contends that the day of service from a dealer is dead on the road and apparently has been run over several times to the point where it is getting unrecognizable as anything it used to be. I would hope this is not true but I believe this is why I wanted this thread to discuss what has/is happening in the market place. I know full well the market has changed dramatically from when I first started selling in 1974. Back then Pacific Stereo had just moved into town to compete with CMC on a big box basis. Before that audio was a mom and pop store item. Even the McIntosh/Bozak dealer was usually a one or two store operation. We delivered and installed almost every system we sold. I took a few years off around 1990 when my parents were in need of assistance and did sales and installs on my own at that time. When I got back to a real store in 1993 the Home Theater market was really starting to ramp up. Things were different at that point. It was becoming more get the dollar and go on. But no matter how big the store became or how many dollars we did most of my customers liked the service they got from my way of selling. I always assumed those who just wanted a price and a box found them elsewhere. I know the people I worked with were most often happy to do business that way. Several times while I was waiting for a store to open I sold cars. It is an enlightening experience. Since the 70's the mantra of the sales gurus has been "relationship selling". The idea was to be different than the other guy and build a customer base from the satisfied customers. This never seemed different than what I always heard sales people say was important to selling, but it was what was making the gurus money as the wrote books and gave lectures. Nakamichi put out a tape series in the 80's that was supposed to teach you how to sell in the new generation of audio. One of their big pieces of advice was to ask the customer what equipment they already owned. DUH! As I have said in this forum there were people I sold to in the 70's that I never saw again. Some I saw once a year when they brought their Macs in for the free clinic but they bought very little. And some that came back and sent me customers. The big boxes and the internet are changing the way people do business. People seem to think saving a buck is the most important part of buying something and they believe everything they read on the internet. I had a pair of Definitive Audio towers that a friend had given me to pass on to a needy soul. I asked a neighbor if he would like them and he said he would have to check them out on the internet and he'd get back to me. He never said he wanted them. He never listened to them. And he was using a pair of speakers his brother had made in 1978 with a 6X9 car speaker in a homemade box. But he didn't want these towers because (I assume) they didn't pass muster over the internet. As an aside, he bought a 1993 Lexus ES-300 last year (128,000 miles). He wanted to replace the front struts so he bought a new tool kit and all the necessary tools to do the struts and shopped around for the best price over the internet for the struts. I happened to be walking my dogs and stopped for a chat. Bad move. "Clayton, why are you trying to do this yourself?" "Saving money, but I had to get this special kit and yada yada ..." Two days later, during a Texas July, we had accomplished one strut and he had torn the CV boot in the process. I can only guess what the results would have been if he had used the hammer the way he was suggesting! Next day he calls his mechanic to tell him he's bringing the car out to him. Towing, new boot and the second strut installed came to over $300. That didn't count all the tools he had purchased. He could have had both struts done for $175 since he had the parts. I told him that was a good lesson in how to save money. So we all want to save money and a lot of us get in over our head. But if you tell me you're on a tight budget when you buy a projector and think that buying a second TV to use for regular programs is a good idea, how tight is this budget? Maybe I don't have a point here anymore than I've already stated. But to me it makes no sense to buy more expensive product that you don't know how to hook up and then try to get help from this type of forum. I guess this is really where I thought I was with Stevie on the thread that started this diatribe. Well, I've rattled on again and let off some steam. I guess I just am not prepared for today's world. Criminy, doesn't anybody listen in stereo anymore?
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 09:46 GMT For those that have never done sales as a way to make a living, let me explain a few things that every salesperson should be taught before they set foot on a floor. There are definite parts to a sale. They occur in almost any sale beyond going to the grocery store or Home Depot where you can't find a salesperson if you set yourself on fire. The first part of a sale is called the opening. It is just a greeting. The very first rule I was taught in sales was, "you can't close anything you haven't opened". A lot of salespeople use the "can I help you" open. A lot of salespeople never get beyond that point. To move to the next step a salesperson has to get you involved in a conversation. There are many ways to do this but when the salesperson does it is most often dictated by the management. Some managers like the customer greeted as they set first foot in the store. Some want the customer to walk around for a while. If the salesperson greets you as you walk in the door, don't feel like they are jumping you. They are most likely doing what they have been told to do by management. Next is the qualifying step. This is where, a John A. has said, who find out who the salesperson is working for. If the first question is, "what are you looking to spend?", be careful. Every salesperson needs to know this but if that and, "when do you need it delivered?", are the only question you hear until, "how are you going to pay for this?", you may not have the best salesperson for help. You should be hearing, "How big is the room?" and "What do you own now?", to be helped by a salesperson. After they gather enough information they should proceed to the demonstration step. This used to be taught as, "find out what they want and then go in the stock room and find what you have in stock that you can sell them". Though crude, this kind of is good advice. Just make certain you are not being squezed because the salesperson needs a sale that day. This step seems to be getting eliminated as big boxes go to just making sales based on price. Find a store where you feel comfortable spending time comparing equipment. A store that has your interest in mind will normaly make it easy for you and the salesperson to make this step work. Some stores are set up to sell certain brands. This is an area that a salesperson usually has little control over so give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Strong feelings about what item is best for you are not uncommon. You'll hear, "We sell more XYZ than anything else". Find out why. Is it because they get spiffs from the manufacturer or the management wants that line sold? If you feel the salesperson is being straight with you then it may be a superior product. But don't buy without a demo unless absolutely necessary. Obviously a store can't have every cable or every volume control on display but they should have facilities that let you compare whatever reciever, speaker, DVD/CD player they are recommending. As you wind down through the demo phase the salesperson should be looking for a way to close the sale. This is where customers get defensive. There is no need to be anything other than honest. If the salesperson has not made their case you are under no obligation to buy. But don't hold it against the salesperson if they ask you to buy what they have shown you. The second rule I was taught was, "you don't get anything you don't ask for". I've never worked in a store that paid me by how many customers I showed equipment. Selling is how they make a living. If they ask you to buy something seven different ways, they are doing their job. If they ask you to buy something seven times in the same way, they are doing what management has told them to do. I get frustrated when a salesperson doesn't ask me to buy something. It means they haven't been paying attention or they don't care enough to do a good job with every customer. Don't be afraid to give a salesperson your name and phone number. I always asked for that information so I could keep in touch. Many people were so busy they would be months in deciding. They got a call every once in a while and they would tell me they were glad I called because it kept them on track or they could get information from me that they would have forgotten by the next time they came by the store. If you don't want to be bothered just tell the salesperson they need to call at a different time or not to call again. When you get to a store and it is busy, don't take a salesperson's time if you are going to continue to shop for several days or weeks. The best thing to do is make an apppointment for when you can have some undivided attention. You'll get better service, make a better decision and just be more comfortable. A salesperson gets paid by what they sell (usually) and they want to help you make the deicision. Help them, also. Others are certainly welcome to add to this list in the spirit of making the sales experience better for everyone involved.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 266 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 10:45 GMT Yes Jan, some of us do listen in stereo. I have a little theory. I don't think the new breed is looking for the absolute audio truth. I think they just want to be entertained.If it sounds entertaining, that's good enough.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1358 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 12:00 GMT Rick, My theory is that there is no "new breed". It was always like this. Around 1960 people were rubbishing stereo as a gimmick, for entertainment only (passing steam locomotives etc.), not for music, which was best in mono. And the same factors in value-for-money, which Jan so nicely describes, have also long been with us. Jan's story about the guy repairing his car illustrates one thing I worry about. We seem to be increasingly reluctant, or unable, to pay for the skills of others. My blue-collar father could, occasionally, employ an electrician, a plumber, or an interior decorator: it was worth their while, and his. If I hire a plumber he charges me, for 10 minutes' work, what I earn (after tax) in about a day. So I "do it myself". There is some satisfaction in that, but when you need special tools, and special skills, it becomes uneconomical on a large scale. Maybe we are losing the division of labour and specialization on which civil society was once based. I think it may be like that with audio. But it is difficult to tell, really. Some of the big retail success stories these days involve selling flat-pack furniture which you bolt together, and which falls apart after a couple of years. Seems people no longer take a long-term view, but demand instant gratification. Certainly many of the "must-have" features of e.g. audio are entirely illusory, I agree. Where we seem to disagree is in thinking surround sound is just another pointless gimmick. Wouldn't it be fun to go into a really good home theater dealer's, be greeted with "Can I help you?", and just say "I am happy with stereo, but was wondering if surround sound really has anything to offer?"
KEGGER Silver Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 422 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 14:04 GMT well unfortunatly guys i am one of the guys you are complaning about. and i don't care. i believe with internet i can get almost all of the info i need. so i don't need some educated salesperson to help me make my desiscion. all i need is a place to see and listen to what i want.and not some guy who says this is the sh!t. and as far as hiring someone for a specialty job at home i am very capable of doing almost anything so i'm not going to pay for something i can do by myself. i'm going to save my money to spend on something i want. it realy comes down to belief in yourself instead of relying on someone else to make up your mind. theirs one thing about discussing with someone to find things you want to investigate but in the end it's you that has to make the desiscion not the person who told you it is great.
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 267 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 14:56 GMT Hi John, Just two quick thoughts. I never said or implied that multichannel sound was a pointless gimmick. I think it is fantastic for film/cinema. I am still in the evaluation stage when it comes to music, and the jury is still out. I don't mean to speak for Jan, but I sense the source of his frustration is that newcomers in audio today would rather research the internet, ask avice on forums, rely on friends opinions, rather than go to a dealer for consultation/sale/installation. The basic problem I have with audio forums, and don't get me wrong, I think this one is better than most, is that the level of bad advice you can get. If you are lucky enough to get a response from Jan, Hawk, Elitefan, Rantz, Kegger, and others (sorry I can't name all), you will be in good hands. I see/hear comments and advice on threads all the time, that make me say "WHAT ?" I'm sure they mean well, but don't have a clue. This leads me back to what I've said all along.....the new breed today don't have a frame of reference for good audio. Many have never listened to a state of the art system. Many would not know a bad $50,000 system from a great $10,000 one. Many don't even listen to the gear before they buy. They rely on reviews, and advice (good or bad), and then want to buy at the lowest price. It is different today John, not at all like when we started out. Can't say better or worse, just different. Sorry, I said this was going to be short....... Cheers!
Rick Barnes Silver Member Username: Rick_b New york Usa Post Number: 268 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 15:13 GMT Kegger, I am certainly not complaining about anyone, especially you. I always admire guys like you that can do most everything. I have never been all that handy, and must rely on pros for a lot of things in life. Time is also a big factor, or lack of it. However, many other people are also in the same boat. I think my above post puts audio advice into perspective. Just my opinion, and never intend to knock anyone.
KEGGER Silver Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 423 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 15:29 GMT rick i have no problem with what you have said. many people need advice or help. but those are the same people that can be taken advantage of. anyone who isn't knowlagable about what they are getting into is volnerable. i just felt the need to interject into the mix of "praise to ala the sales gods" some real world/ life of service. it just seemed this thread was leading down the path of you need to listen to your salesmen/worker and praise them for being there.they can decide for you what you need. my point was get yourself as familair with what you are getting into as you can before you go see someone about purchasing that which you desire. anyone who goes into a purchase blindly should expect to be taken to the cleaners.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1360 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 18:01 GMT I find I agree with everyone. Strange. I am like Kegger, and also like Rick. The thing to do with dealers is go along, accept they may know more than you about some things, you may know than them about others, and see if they approach it in the same way. But they ought to have a load of different brands and set-ups there, and will have been able to try combinations you, the customer, will never be able to try. If you find you "talk the same language" you can benefit a lot from their knowledge and expertise. Don't bow down. If it seems like they want you to, blow them out of the water. Don't bullshit them either; be prepared to learn. Chances are they know some things. If the dealership is any good As regards whether things have changed, well, there were "Dansette" portables and "Fidelity" "music centers" way back. My student friends who had more money and knowledge than I went down to Lasky's as soon as they got their allowance and typically bought a Garrard turntable, a Leak amplifier, and a pair of Wharfedale speakers. But they were the "Audiophile" minority. And they did not really audition things. Those were just the cool brand names, in that place, at that time. I wonder how much has changed, really.
Berny Silver Member Username: Project6 Post Number: 686 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 22:55 GMT A lot of the folks in this forum are on a tight budget. The leaps in technology and affordability has opened the Home Theater (a once exclusive realm only the priveleged few can afford) into the living room of the masses. Heck, there's Wal-Mart in every town selling home theater systems for under a hundred bucks! (hate the way they undercut small businesses providing the services I so miss The "service" of the independent audio/video dealer installer is all but extinct. DIY saves money for the layman with a modicum of connecting color coded cable. Fact of the matter is, service comes at a premium nowadays and not everyone can pay for the audio consultant and the installer. We are "Old School" Jan, we believe and expect the services of the establishment, whose goods we just purchased for a few thousand dollars. Those days are waning, my friend, the age of the internet is at hand...find the lowest prices, free shipping for orders over 2 pence, 1 day delivery from Madagascar, no sales tax, etc.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1363 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 03:17 GMT Just to say it's a good point, but I disagree, Berny. When you've taken delivery, what do you do when you discover it is not what you want? Just buy another? Where is the saving in that? To get the most value for money, buy only what you are sure you want. Then look after it. Nothing outside of computers is developing so fast that obsolescence comes automatically. BTW here is another little revolution, imho. A wireless radio-frequency network hub with ethernet and audio out: http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/specs.html For sound, you still need a stereo system to plug it into. No fundamental change, just something extra you can do. That's evolution. I really doubt that anyone will be playing discs of any sort in about ten years' time.
Berny Silver Member Username: Project6 Post Number: 690 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 04:11 GMT agreed, John A., however, most people usually do a lot of research before buying a product over the internet. Most specially the type of products we enjoy in our hobby, it is no minor impulse purchase, it is something we think about, discuss and even beg the wife's approval. It is highly likely that when they take delivery, there is already a load of research behind the purchase. The discovery of that purchase not being what they want is highly unlikely. If it was an impulse buy, this is the type of person that is not keen on saving money. If they are too fickle with their purchase and cannot make up their mind, again this is a person who is not likely to find any information about the product they want and someone who can be taken advantage of in the used car sales arena. The information is so easy to access nowadays, so many websites, so many reviews and there's this forum, how can they go wrong? The feeling is they don't need the middle man, the annoying rep, etc., they can save money by doing it themselves.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1365 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 04:41 GMT Berny, Yes. That's what we do. I have learned lot on this particular forum. But all you have, in the end, is opinions, and you have to decide which ones to take seriously. I personally also like having instant access to specifications and data sheets. But I still recommend buying through a dealer, with a physical place where you can go and listen, look, compare, discuss. "Middle men" who do nothing irritate me, too, and I would cut them out with no remorse. But that is not what a good dealer is. He is the manufacturers' spokesman and representative, and can offer choice and insight into what these complicated things can and cannot do. I submit it is false economy to miss him out. You might be lucky, you might not. A dealership is a sort of market stall. You can look (and listen) before you buy. The internet is a wonderful means of access to information and opinion. But it can't bring you the thing itself. The other thing that occurs to me is that dealers are an urban phenomenon. People living far from towns and cities have always had mail order as almost their only option. No real change, there, except people are maybe more informed before they make their decision. That's a good thing.
Maxis Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 08:31 GMT Can anyone help me? i got ripped off by a company called theater research...now i am stuck with these speakers...i wouldnt pawn them on someone else because i believe in karma...so my question is....how do i set up the speakers....they are sorround sound home theater speakers the only thing i have are two speaker towers...and a set of 5 or 7 speakers that hang on the wall separately but they say 5.1 sorround sound...and i have two 2400 watts macro tech amps that i had previosly purchased from a going out of business Disc Jockey....What do i need to purchase and how do i set it up to have my Television stereo and EVerything i basically own make noise out of these punk speakers...i don't have a Receiver and i am also not sure what type of specs and comparable receiver i need to buy to make it all work... Please some one help me?
Berny Silver Member Username: Project6 Post Number: 693 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 11:46 GMT John A. This poor chap Maxis is a prime example of false economy. He thought he is getting a bargain out of some bozo trying to stiff his employer (you know the story). A poor shmuck who did the research after the fact! This should be an entirely separate forum "Speaker Innovation Schlemiels"! Alas, I live in a town far from a city with a decent audio dealer. And you are right, I have to do a lot of research before making any decisions. The information and research is indeed a good thing, but how I miss the discussions with the dealers and hearing the recommendations and the auditions and definitely checking out the equipment I have been eyeing. I miss living in the city!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1369 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 11:57 GMT Maxis, It seems you could have written that just to prove the point some of us have been trying to make, about dealers. I wonder if that was your intention. My guess is not many people here will be familiar with those speakers. You don't give a model number or any spec., so it is asking a lot - don't take it personally if no-one has much idea. If you want 5.1 you will need a Dolby AC-3 and/or DTS and/or DVD-A decoder somewhere, for example in the DVD player. As well as a multichannel "AV" surround sound receiver/amplifier (may contain the processor for AC-3 and DTS). You can also get simulated 5.1 from stereo sources using "Prologic" etc. but it is not as good. Putting "5.1" on speakers is particularly disingenuous of the maker, if that's how it is. A dealer would have sorted all this out for you. With respect I suggest you have not saved money at all, and I put that to Berny, too.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1370 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 12:04 GMT Berny, I am with you. Let's keep up the discussion, here. The best and most informed fellow audio people I know are on this forum; you are one!. The best and most informed audio dealer I have ever come across is named "J. Vigne". One other factor to consider, if you are in N. America, is direct sale from manufacturer. I drool over these offers from Magnepan and the like. They seem to take care of their valued dealerships by shipping direct only to people not less than x distance from a registered dealer. Nothing like that exists in Europe, I think.
Berny Silver Member Username: Project6 Post Number: 700 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 16:23 GMT My apologies, Maxis for calling you a schmuck. Hindsight is always 20/20, a few testaments to that are hundreds of posts in various places around this forum, complaining how they got "ripped-off". There is a common theme to the Theater Research, Dogg Digital, etc. speakers. The culprits almost always have the same story...i.e. too much inventory from the warehouse/invoice, whatever, hates their boss so they'd rather get beer money, magazine "articles" as to the worth of the speakers, usually in the $1000 and higher range, etc.,etc. I've ran into these guys quite a few times and I am familiar with the pitch. They got adamant when I told them what I was thinking! When you look at the overall picture, the story is that these guys are selling you stolen goods and they appealed to your greed of getting something for almost nothing. You didn't get ripped off, you were helping them rip someone off until you realized that you have been taken. My respects John A. for your politeness cheers
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1373 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 17:05 GMT A pleasure, Berny. Mine in return. Cheers.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 02:59 GMT John A. _ Thank you for the kind words. Maxis - Swallow your pride and report the thieves to the police. You won't get your money back but you might help put these guys behind bars for at least a short while.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 04:39 GMT Kegger - Per a previous post. Yes, it does come down to confidence in oneself. Everything in life does except giving up. I am capable of many things that others can't accomplish and vice versa. When I did pro sound it is an area where you are constantly doing things and solving problems because you are confident you can accomplish them, sometimes before the next cue comes along. What I did learn (usually from watching the guys who never learned this one simple thing) was when to get my hands out of something before I did real damage. It is a hard and sometimes expensive lesson to learn. And this was not meant to be a "praise be to salespeople" thread. As I stated in an early post here there are far too many salespeople who are unworthy of even a paycheck let alone any praise. But, as John A. says, when you gather your information over the internet you are asking for a wild ride. As a salesperson I can't tell you what weird, strange things have come out of a customer's mouth that (according to them) came from the internet. Some of the things I have heard are like reading the Weekly World Sun. "I read that Denon's cause cancer in Bat Boy!" There is no filter on the net and someone you has a grudge can do anything they like. Remember "miserable failure" on a Google search? My point in this thread was to ask why salepeople and reputable retail outlets that have proven their worth over 20, 30 or 50 years have such a bad reputation among the writers on this forum. And it is all over. After I stopped selling I had someone I worked with that wanted a system. I referred him to a good friend who managed a store that I knew could get him a good system and would take good care of him. He bought the system, had it installed, told me how happy he was with the sale and service as well as the system. A week later he told me he never should have bought retail because he found all the pieces (from five different dealers) on the internet for less money and he was either going to take it back or get money back. Now I understand buyer's remorse, but, ... And this guy was a salesperson also, and yet he was more than happy to scr*w someone over for a buck. Forward ... The prosecution respectfully requests that the thread "WHO CAN SET UP ..." and "Everything delivered ..." from the "Home Theater Set Up" section of this forum be admitted into evidence.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1379 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 04:47 GMT Jan, Just to remind you, your "try playing with the lid open" has transformed my LP-playing enjoyment more than any equipment upgrade ever did, or could, no matter how expensive. And I thought I knew some things about audio. We just have to get over this little bit of a block you have about surround sound..... I think years of finely-tuned search-and-destroy missions for mindless hype have served you, and you customers, well. But watch carefully for unintended, collateral damage. I fully see that some of the good guys are now convincingly dressed up as the enemy.... Anyone new to this thread: Teaching an old dog new tricks... Unless I am very much mistaken, My Rantz is, right now, on the road to Damascus, and we shall hear from him when he has calmed down a bit.
KEGGER Silver Member Username: Kegger MICHIGAN Post Number: 428 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 05:00 GMT the point that i'm trying to get accross JAN is that talking to a saleperson and looking on the internet is the same thing, a crap shoot! their is no more trust or knowlage on either front. i can talk to and look at more on the internet than i can go to stores and talk to someone. so if you gather more info from more sources you should be able to get a better idea of what your looking at than the 7 stores in your area that sell certain brands and obviuosly want to sell what they have. so i definatly think i get a better idea about a product from the internet than i do from 7 salesguys i can talk too! so no i'm not going to praise the salesguy if he does his job well great! he should that's what he is paid for!
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a Post Number: 1381 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 05:33 GMT My last post appears not to follow. It was intended as a response to Jan, June 12, 2004 - 10:59 pm. Kegger, the point is not do we praise 'em, but do they actually do anything useful? Are they worth paying for? Answer: it depends. I do not know how it is in your area, but, years ago, these guys saved me a fortune. I still use the stuff I bought from them. Every day. Recommended. ~~Image Hi Fi~~, 8 St.Anne's Road, Headingley, Leeds, Yorkshire Tel. (44) (0)113 278 9374 ~~Westwood And Mason~~, 46 George Street, Oxford Tel: (44) (0)1865 247783
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 21:36 GMT In the home theater section, under surround sound, J.T. has a question about buying unwarranted merchandise through the internet. I've directed him here. If he makes it does anyone care to give an opinion? Berny has already done so but may wish to contribute more info.
FEOT Bronze Member Username: Feot Texas USA Post Number: 29 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 00:31 GMT I sell items via the internet but take a different approach than most when doing so. Many will create catchy ads luring buyers into their low cost prices. But a catch you will see very widely is that they do not offer a warranty or many times a serial number with the product they are selling. Cross shipping. This is a term that means a distributor in one state is selling to a consumer in another. Many manufacturers hate to see this. So much that they can have the resellership pulled from the distributor so they will no longer be able to sell that product. The manufacturer wants to sell a dealer a product that will be resold at a fixed or MAP price. This price standard is set usually by the manufacturer and is many times hard to comply with. This is how I began selling items over the internet initially. I came close to loosing a sale on 3 pair of NHT IW3 in-wall speakers to a company in Arizona that was selling them on eBay at $100 over my total cost for three pair of IW3s. I had to lower my prices to the local individual but added in the shipping fee (even though this was a local sale) and told the customer I would sell them to him at the same price and with the same catch -- NO SERIAL NUMBERS. No #'s means no warranty. I explained to the customer if they would like to enjoy the benefits of the warranty, they would have to pay a bit more. What are the benefits of a warranty? When I worked at the local retail chain, back in the days, many people would ask that question. Extended warranties were a mandatory selling tool back then and I did a good job presenting their benefits. So much that it put me in the top 5% out of my southern district. The complaint I would often hear is "Oh, it will never break, this thing will last forever." Or "Hey, if it breaks, I'll just come buy a new one." or "My Dad has had one of these forever and never had a problem with it.". Now ask yourself, "Why does a manufacturer give a warranty with their product?". Technology is new? Moving parts? Well how about that the electronic device was made by a man or machine and Nothing is perfect? Yeah, imagine that, something can actually break inside there and it may need to be fixed to work properly. Or, maybe it's just an indication light that is out and you already know that it's supposed to be lit up or a cabinet laminate is peeling and you can hide it with a little black electrical tape. Bottom line is, the product was designed to come with a warranty. Just calculate the price it would cost to take something in to an electronic repair shop, your personal time dropping it off and picking it up and the time it takes for them to fix it and subtract it from the discounted price that you find so attractive. Is it still worth it? When I sell products over the internet, I still offer a discount lower than that of which you would pay at a retail store but it is greater than a few dollars over my cost because I want to make sure I'm selling someone something they need and will use. Oh great, I make $100 more on the bigger speakers but is the customer really going to benefit from having the larger speakers or can they accomplish their goal and save some money at the same time? I explain to every customer after qualifying them of a sale that I offer a 30 day DOA and I will pay for the return shipping. I ship all products with full manufacturers warranty and serial numbers and carefully explain that if the item is defective during the warranty period, the customer is responsible for paying to have the item shipped back to me and I will take care of the warranty concerns. In a case of a product that I sell for $200 versus something you could buy at a local retailer for an extra $25, this may not be the best choice but I tell the customer that when they are considering a product. All in all, my opinion is Yes, a warranty is worth it.
J. Vigne Unregistered guest	Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 20:24 GMT Along those same lines, when I sold retail I often met customers with prices from somewhere other than a "brick and mortar" retail establishment. I would explain the advantages of having local service, return privileges and a warranty. The same arguments were expressed as above. Most often I was working in a store with a repair shop so it was a matter of taking the customer to the doorway of the shop and explaining that most every customer expects the equipment they are purchasing to be free of faults. And certainly as the retailer we expected the same. But, as a retailer we know that every manufacturer has to build in a certain percentage of failure. Buying better equipment normally meant lower percentages but even then there is an average 1-2% failure of parts that cannot be tested enough. Resistors, capacitors and switches can be tested hundreds of times and still fail when they are in your gear. That is why a warranty is offered by the manufacturer. So hopefully your equipment will be in that 99% that don't have problems but you have to ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky?" Some did and went with the cheaper price. Most didn't.

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