Martin Logan speakers
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3234 Registered: Feb-07 | http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000F S10133849&catid= Interesting. Future Shop here in Canada is now selling Martin Logan speakers. I haven't had any experience with elecrtrostats. Anyone ever owned these? Strengths/weaknesses? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11109 Registered: Feb-05 | Interestingly when that question has been asked in the past a majority of folks here have posted about not being fans of ML's sound. I am one of them. Just doesn't hang together for me musically. I do respect what they do well and I bet that they would make a good match with Mac gear. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3235 Registered: Feb-07 | Interesting Art. Can you be more specific what you didn't like about them? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13869 Registered: Dec-04 | maggies sound better all around to me than ML. ML's don't hold on the complicated pieces very well that I have heard. The kit I heard was Mac2275's driving 1.6 maggies. lovely. I am not sure if I like the idea of panels in FutureShop or not. Those kids could not setup a bowling pin. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2208 Registered: May-06 | I auditioned them at defunct Circuit City, which if I recall was the stateside Future shop. I found that the bass drivers were not cohesive with the panels. Plodding along is my recollection. To those ready to defend ML's, it might have been cables, set up, power sources, a number of things, but the sales team was proud of them as they were. Go figure. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11112 Registered: Feb-05 | After the football game David... |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2816 Registered: Jun-07 | lol good find David. I will have to go in to the local store here and see how the idiots there have them set up in a corner being powered with?? Denon AVR? LOL!! What do they have at Future shop that is even worthy of the ML line. I think Mr. Wodek hit it on the nail when he said Setup. I am not going to defend ML but I have heard them sound fantastic and the same speaker sound terrible. My dealer use to carry ML speakers and dropped the line because he said they were by far the hardest speaker to setup. He said unless you had the perfect room with enough space they would sounds like crap. Set up right, they were fantastic. Problem is there isn't a lot of people out there, including myself that have an ideal room for any speaker let a lone one that needs perfect attention like the ML speaker does. So he dropped them, too much of a pain he said. But Setup with them is really really really really key. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11114 Registered: Feb-05 | Like Mike, I am not fond of the hybrid design as I've heard it executed by ML. I don't think anyone has done it as well as Apogee did. I've even heard he ML's panel and bass drivers relatively well integrated, they just don't have the same character of sound to me. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3236 Registered: Feb-07 | That's a good point Nick. Can't see them sounding that great being driven by your typical big-box AVR fodder that FS and BB sells. Placement would also be an issue for sure. I can just see my daughter using them as an easel for her crayons. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2817 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL!! My cat would use them as a scratching pad. I would never own a pair myself. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1376 Registered: Nov-04 | I worked at BB/Magnolia and we sold the Clarity towers which was recently replace with the Purity and the Source. My dad actually bought a pair of Clarity speakers and with his current setup, I think it sounds really good. He had it in one room that was much too small forcing the speakers to be rather close to the walls. This completely screwed the sound up and made violins shrill. The room he currently has the system set up is much bigger, say 25' by 20' and they sound much better with all that extra room to breath. He has the Vincent SV-236MK and the CD-S6. To give you an idea of how well received it is in it current setup my sister's boyfriend is a professional jazz guitarist and every time he comes over he wants to have sex with the speakers and elope |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11116 Registered: Feb-05 | That may be indicative of other issues Christopher...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1319 Registered: Nov-06 | I had a pair of ML... I will add to this after work |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3543 Registered: May-05 | I couldn't agree more with Art and Mike. What they do well, they do very well - image, soundstage, tonality of mids and highs, and speed. What kills them IMO is the bass and lower midrange. There's no cohesiveness to it; it sounds very disconnected from the rest of the music. To my ears, it seems like there is a hole in the frequency response curve. I know there isn't, but that's the best way to describe it. I've heard them with a bunch of different gear and in a bunch of different rooms. From the lowest model up to near the highest. They all suffered it, just at varying degrees. Listen to some Pink Floyd on MLs. The clocks and cash registers on Time and Money will sound superb. You'll be sold on the speakers if they're set up right. Once the music gets going, that bass disconnect and what sounds like a hole to my ears will become pretty appearent. They have a new non-panel speaker that I've seen in Best Buy/Magnolia that interests me a little bit. All they have left to power it are Denon and Pioneer AVRs and DVD players, so no fair assessment could be made if I did hear them. I must say the best MLs ever sounded to my ears was with Mac. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1377 Registered: Nov-04 | Haha, which part Art? Stu- Time and Money was the usual demo that our store gave to people to wow them on a 7.1 ML system. We usually used the multi channel SACD version. If the sub was setup right the bass disconnect was not that bad. I always found it odd that ML was being sold only using Denon and Pioneer Elite as the premium power sources. I was actually able to make the Denon AVR4308 go into protection mode playing Carmina Burana on a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands and it really wasn't that loud. Goes to show that 140WPC in the Denon doesn't really mean much when they are not that good at handling low impedance speakers. I think I know what speakers you are talking about Stu. I think they are called the Preface. If I had the $1500/pr to spend I would try them out or maybe the Vienna Acoustics Bach Grands. On a side note, of all the speakers that I sold at BB/Magnolia I liked the Vienna Acoustics the best. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11119 Registered: Feb-05 | Vienna's are warm and easy to get along with. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1378 Registered: Nov-04 | Art or anyone else, Do Sonus Fabers resemble Viennas in their overall sound? I really like the look of the Domus line and have always wondered what they are like. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11120 Registered: Feb-05 | Not really Christopher. The Sonus Fabers that I've heard are more open and detailed. It's been in vogue of late to pair them with Naim electronics. I can't imagine doing that with Vienna Acoustics. I far prefer Sonus Fabers to Vienna's. Look up some reviews of Sonus Faber speakers...they are very interesting indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1379 Registered: Nov-04 | Thanks Art. I would hope they are better considering how much more it costs to get a pair. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11122 Registered: Feb-05 | A Sonus Faber that I've seen a number of times recently on the used market for very reasonable prices... http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/269/ |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13877 Registered: Dec-04 | At 5k, thats demo Gallo's and a new sub amp, from a dealer and warrantyed as new. Unless you NEED panels, I think thats a pretty tough call meself. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11123 Registered: Feb-05 | 5k = used DeVore Gibbon 9's. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2216 Registered: May-06 | 5K CDN maybe, demoe or used Gallo 3.1 Ref's should be had with sub-amp for <$3K USD. Then too it is about a decade newer in design, about the same year as the Devore's but at much lower cost Gallo Ref. 3.1's http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1261937068&/Anthony-Gallo-3.1-re ference-mi w/ sub-amp http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1260592340&/anthony-gallo-3.1-su b-amp Devore 9's http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1260635064&/Devore-Fidelity-Nine s-walnut-- . |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1380 Registered: Nov-04 | I really like the look of the new Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus. I think the teak with the leather looks sexy |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11124 Registered: Feb-05 | The DeVore Gibbon 8 (the one I have) is comparable in price to the Gallo's. The Super 8's can be had for bit more and the Nines are IMO in a different league than any of the speakers we are discussing. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3544 Registered: May-05 | Sonus Fabers are my favorite looking speakers by far. The Teak finish and leather just looks so damn good to me. I'm not a fan of their black finish. But then again, I'm not a fan of black laquer anything. The Sonus Fabers sound as good as they look when they're paired up right. Their most natural partner is Mac IMO. I've never been anything short of wowed by combo. The only thing I haven't liked them with is Krell. I guess Krell is so bad to my ears that they'll make anything sound cold and sterile. My Naim dealer started carrying Sonus Faber and says they pair up very well. They said they were very surprised by how well they sound together. I haven't heard the Naim-SF combo yet, but I trust my Naim dealer almost whole-heartedly. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3545 Registered: May-05 | Chris Lee - I haven't heard them in multi-channel. I'm a 2 channel guy and think that any good speaker will pull it off in stereo. I've heard a ton of speakers that do, and unfortunately MLs weren't any of them. I like the Viennas. They're a very easy speaker to like. Smooth and very large sounding. Maybe a tad too smooth and slow though. I guess you could say Viennas and Sonus Fabers are a little similar. I think pretty much anyone who likes Viennas will love Sonus Fabers, but I don't think everyone who likes SFs will like Viennas, if that makes any sense. I'd take any SF over the comparable Vienna. And yes, the new MLs I was referring to are the Preface. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2621 Registered: Nov-05 | I heard Sonus Fabers and didn't think much of them - cold and sterile summed them up. I guess it must have been the 40 grand of Krell gear making them sound that way. I'm not being facetious here Stu, I think it's quite possible you have the answer. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1320 Registered: Nov-06 | ok I am here... I used to have a pair of low end ML (the scenario) and I returned them once I bought my Magnepan MMG. To my ears, the maggies are much more cohesive for the money spent. With the older ML (which I am most familiar with...I haven't heard any of the new ones), there was a disjointed quality between the panel and the cone, especially if they were driven by equipment that was not up to the task. I remember also hearing lots of cabinet resonance listening to some Melissa Etheridge on the Clarity. They did NOT like her vocals what so ever. Now the upper end ML gear of that time period was a different story (ascent, prodigy, etc.). the ascent was the one that I am most familiar with of the upper end speakers. I really enjoyed the sound. The speaker could rock given enough power, and had an immediacy to it that was addictive. Logans are a unique breed of speakers. Mixed with improper gear (or room), they can get a nasty midrange glare. Some of you probably remember that I was drooling over the ML clarity and came real close to buying a pair a couple of years ago. I thoroughly enjoyed the sound, but once I heard that boxy resonance in the showroom playing my Melissa Etheridge CD, nothing sounded right. I could hear it plain as day when I went back through my demo CDs. All it takes is one thing to ruin it :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1381 Registered: Nov-04 | Hey Gavin. Do you remember what song it was that triggered the cabinet resonance? My father has a Melissa Etheridge CD,Greatest Hits:The Road less Traveled, and was thinking of trying it out to see what I get. I can see where the gripes are coming from concerning the bass drivers. In the new baby electrostat the Source, it was really prevalent. The Purity seemed better but the lack of the rear firing tweeter made them sound not as good. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13884 Registered: Dec-04 | Song 'Aint the night heavy' comes to mind! |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 618 Registered: Oct-07 | I have heard ML only 3 or 4 times in the last 20 years. Never, I suspect in a 'proper' setup. No lasting impression. Do I read correctly that they have so many different models? It also sounds like they models change too frequently. Doesn't that raise an alarm? It would seem that a new company would go thru some changes early on but as time passed the line would get more stable. My MG1.6 panels have been made for about a decade, which I will construe to be a certain....correctness. The remainder of there line is also long-lived. Some additions have been made, but the core is still the same. Maggies have a consistency of sound and presentation from bottom to top. Can ML say the same? How long have they been in business? Did they ever make a full-range panel, which would seem to negate some of the objections I have read? I don't mind change, but in the world of hifi, don't you think it should be evolutionary, rather than a revolution? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3239 Registered: Feb-07 | Lots of good input input here guys. From what I'm hearing from most people, these aren't speakers that I'd particularly enjoy. Although someone did mention they sound good with Mac. Hmmmmm.... |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1328 Registered: Nov-06 | sure do Chris... The CD was "Yes I Am" the 2 songs that it was most prevalent on were... I'm The Only One If I Wanted To The resonance in if I wanted to was unbearable. You may think I am nuts, but grab some Cher and take it with you as well if you are really familiar with her voice and like her music. She has a VERY distinctive voice, and one that can wreck havoc on a speaker. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1329 Registered: Nov-06 | and ML did make a full range panel, called the CLS. The CLX (which is made now) is the direct descendant and updated model. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3546 Registered: May-05 | David - "Although someone did mention they sound good with Mac. Hmmmmm...." I said the best I've ever heard them sound is with Mac. That doesn't mean they sounded good. Some people love them though. The music you and I listen to is probably the worst music to listen to on panels, of any type or brand. Have you heard Sonus Fabers? I love them with Mac. If I had a Mac system, they'd be my first choice. Everything else would be held to their standard. I have no idea why I haven't mentioned them to you before. Rantz - Hear SFs with different gear. My Naim dealer characterizes them as 'a bit wrapped in honey.' They're the furthest thing from cold and sterile IMO. I haven't heard $40k worth of Krell, but every penny worth of it I have heard was very cold and sterile. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2623 Registered: Nov-05 | At the time I heard them (I forget which model - floorstanders about 12 grand here) I had the NAD system and B&W standmounts. I honestly preferred the sound of my system and my wife agreed. To be fair, it was all new Krell which he had just finished setting up as we were in his shop and the room and positioning was far from optimal. Sadly as I drove past there this morning - I noticed they had closed down. One of the few hi-fi shops on the coast (where I had purchased my Project turntable) but they stocked brands not of much interest to me - Krell, Pathos, Sonus Fabers (all to dear) and Rotel and Polk. Another one bites the dust - thank you digital music mindset. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1382 Registered: Nov-04 | Leo, I believe that ML has been around for quite a while and has been the most successful electrostat speaker manufacturer for quite a while now. As Gavin stated they do and have had a full range panel only speaker for a while now but I doubt many will go out and buy it as it is over 20 grand for a pair. They have changed their models a bit but I think they give every new "update" a new name so it seems like a lot of different speakers. The ones that have changed most often are the more budget related models. You can take your model change thing and take it from the opposite stand point. I love my Maggies. But a lack of any real design change in the past decade can be seen as a lack of desire, money, research, knowledge, etc to create a new speaker. I am not saying that those are the case, but I don't think changes in design necessarily correlate with bad design. There are inherent problems with panel speakers and being as successful as ML is I would think they would try to put lots of money into R&D to overcome the inherent flaws with a panel speaker and gain market share. There are things that MLs can do very well that not many others can do at all but like every other speaker they aren't everyone's cup of tea. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 620 Registered: Oct-07 | As long as ML has a single goal, sound-wise in mind, they can call 'em whatever they choose. 20 large for the 'ultimate' ML? The top Magnepan is less than 2/3 that! I am very conservative with speakers. It is my least changed component. My current panels are my 2nd set of speakers in over 20 years. I am on my 3rd DVD player and my 2nd CD only. If you count my Kenwood, I'm on my 5th amp, counting pre. The 'flip' side of your ML argument, is Why change something that works? One reviewer suggested an SE version of Magnepan speakers. Take the driver and make a cost no object real wood frame, not MDF and take the x-over to new levels with premium caps, aircore inductors and upgraded internal wire. Charge a premium. Go to the Magnepan Users Group site and see. Maggies are home brewed more than any other brand name speaker. Magnepan is still one of those brands with huge 'would you buy it again' response. Market for panels limited? Unfortunately or not, I must totally agree. I just read RANTZ bemoaning the loss of another hi-end store. Well, how much market for this stuff is there, really? Every wide spot town in America has a NAPA Auto Parts and probably a good place to eat. But just try to find anything from the 'fringe'. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14169 Registered: May-04 | . I think you'll find many reviewers consider the Quad electrostats to be the best of the electrostat genre. As with any speaker there is a give and take to their trade offs but the Quads - which now have several configurations to choose from - have just about everything covered. The Quads have been, are and I suspect will remain reference speakers for many listeners. Martin Logan began producing their electrostats in an earlier age when the single biggest issue for many listeners with designs such as the Quad or the Magnepan was the tendency for large panels to beam at specific frequencies which established a fairly narrow sweet spot and limited listeners to excellent presentation in only one single seat. ML devised their unique one piece curved panel which broadened the listening area in an age when audio was moving from the man cave to the family room. This curved stator panel was to be, in the opinion of many, their single greatest contribution to electrostat design. A trade off to the curved panel was a lack of low frequency drive and extension which was already the deal breaker for many prospective electrostat buyers. The ML solution was to be, in the opinion of many, their single most glaring problem as a design. The combination of hi-tech panel crossed to a conventional dynamic driver enclosed in a very conventional box has always been the most obvious trade off for many listeners - not all but many. Building a successful curved panel that could have the extension most panels users still desire meant larger and more expensive designs. This eventually places the ML's at higher prices for equal or no better performance than the Quads (or Magnepans) which remain reference quality for many. ML's narrow front footprint sells speakers when compared to the broader, more squat and space consuming appearance of the Quads or the large multi-segment room divider appearace of the Magnepans. If you're willing to live with the trade offs of one against the other this can make living with a pair of ML panels more acceptable in a typical domestic situation. The see through quality of the main panel certainly adds one more tick in the box for which speaker might have the greater spouse acceptance factor and "wow" factor to the visiting Bose WaveMachine owning neighbor. IMO, Quads and Magnepans, of the major competitors to ML to consider, sound much more cohesive - and to my ears that makes them more musical and more inviting overall - than any ML I've ever encountered. You'll probably have noticed my opinion has not stopped ML from becoming a very successful and well regarded high end company. . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 621 Registered: Oct-07 | Decent summary, Jan. If the ML top panel really does cost 20 large, the difference in price to the top Magnepan will buy quite a sub. One further note about panels. At least the Maggie version. Don't forget I've lived with 'em for 25 yrs + and have heard them in everything from a large closet sized room to a GIANT 2 story room of probably 7000ft/cubic. Yes, they are somewhat beamy. The sweetspot is real and setup can be a pain. But, how many syspics do I see where there is a single chair, or at most a pair? I suspect that virtually everyone has a preferred seat and claims it regularly. OTOH, I'm sitting at the confuser now, listening to XM. No pretense to criticality here. Man, does it sound good. I've got the house to myself and I won't piss anybody off if it is loud. Sounds like live music from the other room. Even the lowest octave is tight with plenty of slam and great musicality. My opin is that Maggies specifically, and probably any flat panel really needs a lot of air surrounding them. My best setups have always been in bigger rooms. Without fail. There is just something about high spl and a lot of air that you just can't beat. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14171 Registered: May-04 | . "Sounds like live music from the other room." With any halfway decent speaker set/set up this is not unusual. It is, after all and other than poor recording techniques, the multiple reflections, peaks and nulls within the listening room that do the greatest damage. Listening from the next room can in effect be similar to listening with Helmholtz resonators doing their work after all room reflections have been minimized. That's not a knock on your speakers, Leo, just an observation made over many years of hearing numerous speakers of vastly divergent price range while I was standing in an adjacent room. . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 624 Registered: Oct-07 | I was thinking along similar lines. The sound is sort of homogenized by listening from outside the room.....or even outside, period. The effect on a solo instrument can be scary. A solo piano sounds like there is one in the LR. Helmholtz? No problem there! My den has a distracting boom to the bass simply not in the main area. If I gave a shite, I'd get out a sweep tone CD and attempt to determine the Fr of the boom. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2820 Registered: Jun-07 | I read a discussion on AudioCircle where James Tanner, owner of Bryston said basically the same thing Jan just did. That Quad electrostatic speakers were superior to anything like them. Interesting. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2629 Registered: Nov-05 | And they are made in China by IAG. Though the good thing about the Chinese Quads is that Quad people still design and oversee the manufacturing - at least that was what I read and what I was told by my dealer a couple of years back. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13891 Registered: Dec-04 | Accoustats! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 728 Registered: Jul-07 | The Quad ESL's are basically an electrostatic dipole are they not JV ? |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 625 Registered: Oct-07 | Somebody mention full range MLs? http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1262408425 not TOO big a wallet dent, either. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14172 Registered: May-04 | . "The Quad ESL's are basically an electrostatic dipole are they not JV ?" "But in order to preserve Peter Walker's vision, IAG changed little else. Like their predecessors, the '988 and '989 operate as electrostatic doublets or dipoles, radiating as much sound behind as in front. As IAG's website and instruction manual state, the Quad uses "a very light, electrically polarized diaphragm suspended between two sets of concentric annular electrodes. By using a series of concentric anodes, rather than just two plates, the Quads are able to produce a spherical sound-pressure pattern. A series of electrode rings are fed with delay lines, so each ring responds to the change in current a split second after the previous ring, creating movement in the diaphragm identical to a 'ripple in the pond.' The motion of the diaphragm produces a sound-pressure pattern which is an exact replica of that from an ideal source placed some 30cm behind the plane of the loudspeaker diaphragm." http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/720/index.html http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=quad%20loudspeakers%20ho me%20page&type= . |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1332 Registered: Nov-06 | Has anybody here heard the 9000 series quads? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14173 Registered: May-04 | . To my knowledge there are no longer any Quad dealers in the DFW area. So, no, I haven't heard the latest models from the company. . |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1338 Registered: Nov-06 | I think I am going to have to hunt down a decent ML dealer (not terribly difficult) and audition the 'Logan Source. It directly replaced the clarity. Not going to go to magnolia. Tweeter in Saratoga had a dedicated room with 3 pairs of ML set up in a great room and driven by B&K components...the one in Albany had them set up with Pioneer Elite components... no dice there. Now I am curious to see if it is any better. Just about everything about the speaker is different (panel design, woofer is paper instead of metal, speaker also lacks the tweeter in the signal path) I know that a properly executed paper woofer can be blisteringly fast, but also sound smooth and warm. Now if the amp (or speaker itself) isn't up to the task...this is another matter. Sonic mess anyone? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11225 Registered: Feb-05 | Look forward to your listening impresssions. I still haven't heard an ML that I like. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1340 Registered: Nov-06 | It will probably be a while LOL |
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