Speaker Wire!
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New member Username: CigarjohnAliquippa, Pennsylvania U.S.A. Post Number: 2 Registered: Aug-09 | I know there are myths about speaker wire. What I need to know is some wire are stranded copper and some of the copper wire that I have seen are silver plated. Which is better? Plain copper wire or copper wire that is silver coated? http://knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KASA12PRL Also, would solid copper work better than stranded? Looking to use 12 gauge. Peace! |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2081 Registered: May-06 | Is this for you audio or video (HT) set up? How long are the runs? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13814 Registered: May-04 | . Have you ever worked with 12 AWG solid core cable? It doesn't bend easily or neatly. Particularly when it has come from a package where it was rolled into a bundle. The first decision would be whether you really need 12 AWG cable. You probably do not. . . |
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New member Username: CigarjohnAliquippa, Pennsylvania U.S.A. Post Number: 4 Registered: Aug-09 | I've worked with solid core wire before. It is hard and tricky to work with. I was just curious if it had the same qualities as stranded and was better to use. "JUST CURIOUS"! I'm sure 16 gauge wire would suffice. But was told that 12 gauge would yield lower capacitance and more signal would come through better. The distance between my spekers and amp are around 8 feet. |
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New member Username: CigarjohnAliquippa, Pennsylvania U.S.A. Post Number: 5 Registered: Aug-09 | Still would like to know if thers is much a difference between pure copper wire or copper wire that's silver coated. This is the link that I found about silver coated copper wire: http://knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KASA12PRL And in my thoughts, to pay hundreds of dollars for speaker wire or interconnects; thats only 1/2 meter long, well I think only a fool would spend money foolishly on that. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3411 Registered: May-05 | Some people have more money that common sense. But everyone's financial situation is different. If they can afford it and hear a difference, why not? People look at me like I have 3 heads when I tell them my CD player cost $1k. My father thinks it was a waste of money, yet he has 6 Lance Armstrong-esque bikes in his garage. How many can he ride at once? Everyone has something 'stupid' they spend money. Paying thousands of dollars for wires doesn't make sense to me, but then again its not my money. I've always followed the boxes before wire approach - get all the electronics sorted, then focus on finding the right wires. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13815 Registered: May-04 | . The gauge of the cable determines resistance, not capacitance. The construction of the cable (twisted vs parallel legs) determines capacitance and inductance. With the short run of cable you will require and your unwillingness to spend big dollars you should not run into any cable that has high values of any individual component. All cables you might buy should measure about the same for resistance, capacitance and inductance. Any reasonably well designed amplifier should have no problems with any cable of moderate cost. Silver has a slightly lower resistance per foot than pure copper. The difference is again very slight when dealing in the lengths you are likely to use. Some people find fault with the "sound" of stranded cables while others dislike the hassle of solid core. Beyond that cables are a "suck it and see what comes out" proposition. . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2869 Registered: Feb-07 | "People look at me like I have 3 heads when I tell them my CD player cost $1k." LOL, that's good Stu. When I was sending my McIntosh 201 back to the dealer via UPS, the curious guy behind got even curiouser when I told him I needed at least 2k insurance for the box. When has asked what it was, I said "a CD player", and his reply was "they still make those?". John, I recommend you try out several inexpensive speaker cables. I've used 14 and 16 gauge from Home Depot with great results. I've also found that 10 gauge cable from Blue Jeans sounds just as good as fancy cables that are 4x more expensive. |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 102 Registered: Jun-09 | Heres a good low inductance DIY cable with all the "stance" qualities one needs. You can find comparison to other cables in the bottom of the page: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-Inductance-DIY-Speaker-Cables/ |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13821 Registered: May-04 | . You should note that any braided cable has higher capacitance than either a twisted pair construction or a parallel leg arrangement. The numbers on this DIY cable indicate rather high capacitance per foot, higher even than the four strand Kimber which is resembles visually though the tight packing of the DIY in a (optional?) sleeve adds to the capacitance of the overall cable. The only other cables in that group with higher per foot capacitance would be the eight strand Kimber and the Goertz - which is widely known to be exceptionally high in capacitance since its construction resembles and unrolled capacitor. Most amplifiers don't care much for high capacitance. These cables should be low enough for the broadest majority of amplifier/receivers but there are better choices if you want to avoid any conflicts. . |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 103 Registered: Jun-09 | "but there are better choices if you want to avoid any conflicts." >>>>> Unless I'm using Naim or Linn, and altough always preferably relatively low, capasitance comes the last in my book of the three. Links or references for cables in sensible price range which better in all three? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13823 Registered: May-04 | . Once again, fella, you need to get over yourself. This isn't worth a fight or even a protracted discussion. You want links, you go find links yourself. Common sense should tell you most of what you need to know. It should be instructive to many readers to see the effects of braiding vs parallel leg construction vs twisted pair. If you happen to think capacitance has the least effect of the possible values, that's between you and your amplifier. I would place it as the most important for my needs. Now go back and read just what I said in my last post. The first sentence is actually wrong and should read as the following sentences do. If you didn't catch the mistake, you might be quite confused by what was there. The first sentence read, "You should note that any braided cable has higher inductance than either a twisted pair construction or a parallel leg arrangement." It should read, "You should note that any braided cable has higher capacitance than either a twisted pair construction or a parallel leg arrangement." Closely spaced parallel leg construction will result in the highest inductance per foot. Twisted pairs will result in higher capacitance than parallel legs but will have superior noise rejection. Litz construction (multi-strand/conductor, with each conductor individually insulated and arranged as a twisted configuration) will have the highest capacitance per foot - other than the Goertz cable - of any common construction type. I've edited the original post to make it read correctly now. . |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 104 Registered: Jun-09 | ???? You need to stop being so a-nal and move on dude. You stated that there are cables which can outperform the one posted and you was politely asked to show some only because I havent yet found one which could achieve supeior results in all three domains. Thats it. No need to make a number out of nothing. What coes to the importance of capasitance, you as well as I know that for sound reproduction resistance and inductance are widely accepted in most if not all cases more important unless, like you yourself stated, you have a 'difficult' amplifier. You're the only one here who needs to get over what ever it is that you need to get over with. Seriously. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13825 Registered: May-04 | . I did not say, " ... there are cables which can outperform the one posted ... ". If it wasn't you, it would be rather amazing anyone could come up with such BS. You cannot enter a sentence at one end and come out the other end with anything close to the real meaning of the words. Resistance is a minimal concern in most cables. Certainly for the length of cable mentioned in this thread, resistance is not the main concern. If the cable runs were over 75', then resistance would become a minimal concern. Besides, resistance serves only to drop the level of the signal a bit when very thin cables are used over very long lengths. At audio frequencies the drop off is linear and not even noticed for the most part unless a severe mismatch has been managed. Since few speaker cables other than zip cord are parallel legs, inductance tends to be of little concern in most installations. . |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 105 Registered: Jun-09 | "...but there are better choices if you want to avoid any conflicts." >>>>> So where are they? |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godLancaster, Lancashire England Post Number: 802 Registered: Jan-05 | All this cable talk seriously pi**es me off. It matters to a point, good quality copper and good insulation. Seriously I bought a metre of dozens of cables and tried them out with minimal differences. Most notably, that silver wire for me is too bright/harsh, mix of. Whatever. Chord do the best cables for the price. Go with Chord and leave it at that for every system! Forget AWG as the 'important spec'. Dont reconsider. Out. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10449 Registered: Feb-05 | Not so much JJ. Much more to it than you laid out. It's a common point of disagreement on these boards and best left alone. However I can say without doubt that I hear the differences and am willing to pay for them, those who don't hear the differences shouldn't buy them....simple as that. We should do with our money as we wish. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godLancaster, Lancashire England Post Number: 803 Registered: Jan-05 | True. But it cant be argued that spending hundreds and especially thousands on CABLES can be justified. Thats just ludicrousy. If I had money to burn, I'd be very reluctant to consider any cable over £50 a metre. This links to the whole, 'moderation' concept. A perfect cable without a perfect room or perfect copy of music, cd or lossless, would be utterly pointless. |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 106 Registered: Jun-09 | Guys... The link was for a diy cable which measures pretty good against much more expensive cables and is priced $1.75/ft. What comes to sound reproduction, I havent at least been able to justify the high price of most cables and personally think that if cable is doing something to your sound it is doing something fundamentally 'wrong'. Most often cables are sold as a pricey substitute instead of tackling the real issues in most systems which is acoustics. Of course it is much better business to keep your customer coming back for more expensive cables and systems instead of consulting how they can get the most out of their current one. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10450 Registered: Feb-05 | It can be argued that if I feel the difference is worth paying then I should pay for it and if you don't you shouldn't...that simple. I hear enough of a difference that I pay for what I hear and as it's my money I will continue to do so and I encourage everyone to do with your money what you wish...sounds like a broken record don't it. What part of it does not make sense? |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 111 Registered: Jun-09 | Art, that makes all the sense... I think what you said pretty much sums it it up perfectly; If someone wants to pay for more expensive cables and thinks that the sonic advantages are worth it he should be allowed to do so. That said, I personally have never heard of a cable which could do such a huge difference and IMO theres nothing to the sonic capabilities of cables which should or could justify the hefty price tag which so many of them try to. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2372 Registered: Nov-05 | If anyone has heard every darn cable there is, regardless of price, in the one decent system, please speak up so we can deem you as "The Top Cable Authority" Other than that fantasy, Art said it all. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13090 Registered: Dec-04 | Oddly, I do not see specs listed for 'resistance', but impedence. There s a large difference, the greatest being that resistance is a measurement of DC current, and amps do ot use DC current. Well, not for long. Impedence is a calculated value, using a number of factors(one being heat). Inductance and Capaciatance are both measureabale factors, and each affect amplifiers in different ways. For example, the Naim thinking includes the terminations, cabling and speaker systems as an active member of the amplifier circuit, not just the amp posts themselves. If anyone doubts the voracity and accuracy with which several manufacturers assemble their systems, then you may doubt the effect that cabling has on an amplifier. If you believe that Naim has a good idea, then you believe that cables matter. Speaker runs, idelly, will be of the same type of cabling used inside the speakers. This is usually DIY mantra for a system There is a resaon for not wanting to exaggerate, nor null, the phase shift of the speaker, as the naturality of the circuit is disrupted, even more than a busy crossover, and ignoring the effects of a heated bass driver and its feedback messing things up. I wonder how it all works so wonderfully well sometimes... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13091 Registered: Dec-04 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedence |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 112 Registered: Jun-09 | "Speaker runs, idelly, will be of the same type of cabling used inside the speakers. This is usually DIY mantra for a system " This is a good point. Have any of you opened a speaker somewhere in the price range between 1k to 2k and took a look whats inside? Doubt you found any 'fancy' cables there. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13826 Registered: May-04 | . "There is a resaon for not wanting to exaggerate, nor null, the phase shift of the speaker, as the naturality of the circuit is disrupted, even more than a busy crossover, and ignoring the effects of a heated bass driver and its feedback messing things up." "Naturality"? It would take a pretty serious cable problem to cause any phase shift at the drivers due to the cable itself. AC/DC resistance are related, the DC measurement is the one typically provided for a cable. "Resistance of a conductor DC resistance The resistance R of a conductor of uniform cross section can be computed as where is the length of the conductor, measured in meters A is the cross-sectional area, measured in square meters ñ (Greek: rho) is the electrical resistivity (also called specific electrical resistance) of the material, measured in Ohm · meter. Resistivity is a measure of the material's ability to oppose electric current. For practical reasons, any connections to a real conductor will almost certainly mean the current density is not totally uniform. However, this formula still provides a good approximation for long thin conductors such as wires. [edit] AC resistance If a wire conducts high-frequency alternating current then the effective cross sectional area of the wire is reduced because of the skin effect. If several conductors are together, then due to proximity effect, the effective resistance of each is higher than if that conductor were alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance http://www.spectrum-soft.com/news/fall97/skin.shtm http://www.okonite.com/engineering/ac_dc_ratios.htm . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2682 Registered: Jun-07 | I just got done tonight finishing off my DIY speaker cables. I followed the DYI link that wax posted. Started a few weeks ago and just worked at it for a few minutes a night. Braiding it all was the most time consuming. I believe I used better quality cable then that guy though. I used 16awg Braden cable. Like that site, twisted together two pairs of black, and two pairs of red. 8 x 12 feet pieces total. Then took the two black pairs, and counter twisted them together, creating the braided effect. Did the same with the reds. Then counter twisted, again, the red and black together. Making one large, 10awg cable. I then un-twisted 6 inches of each end, cut 3/4 inch of cable back. Twisted the red, then the black ends together. Slipped on 2 inch pieces of Heat Shrink to hold it together up tight against the banana plug to make it look nice. Shrank it down with a Solder-It Gun ( not iron). I ordered some Tech Flex cable from High End Hi Fi in BC. A canadian canuck/ebay audio store. I have purchased from him before and he is incredible to deal with. Should be here tomorrow. Once the finishing touch is done I will post pics.lol. It was fun. I A/B it against my other cable, back and forth, right channel then left. Even had my wife listen, and we both agree the cable I made is a definite improvement. Not huge, but better. Considering I made these cables for free.lol Can't go wrong. Made a believer out of me boys. |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 114 Registered: Jun-09 | That's what I'm talking about. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10453 Registered: Feb-05 | Good job Nick. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2877 Registered: Feb-07 | That's awesome Nick. Seeing as how you have a knack for this I think a pair for me, Nuck, Art, Jan, Mike, M.R., Stu, Chris, George, et al is in order. We can wait a bit. Thanks buddy. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2685 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL!!!! I had to stop at least 300 times before the braiding was done just on a pair. I had to go climb the walls.lol. I thought after 5 years at Sentry building Digital Surveillance Systems and doing advanced security networking was getting boring, I went and made myself some cables. I love my job all over again.LOL. So time consuming. Can you guys pay me now and expect to receive the cables in a couple years?LOL!! Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2880 Registered: Feb-07 | Sure man. How much down ya need? I need mine yesterday. Sound like work? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2686 Registered: Jun-07 | Is anybody using DIY Interconnects? I think MW and Jan were? I am looking to make some of those next for shiz and giggles. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2687 Registered: Jun-07 | David- If you got a box of Monster Cable would you be mad?lol |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2881 Registered: Feb-07 | After you make our speaker cables, right? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2882 Registered: Feb-07 | LOL! Yeah, especially if it was scribbled on the cable with a sharpie. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2688 Registered: Jun-07 | oh of course of course. I am doing them right now and not watching UFC fights at all.  |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2689 Registered: Jun-07 |  Some Princess Auto 10 year old model Speaker cable specials coming right up. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2884 Registered: Feb-07 | Nice. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2693 Registered: Jun-07 | lol. I'll get braiding now.  |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2694 Registered: Jun-07 | Question for Jan Vigne- Say I used 18awg single conductor wire instead of 16awg. 8 pair of 16awg vs 8 pair of 18awg. With the 16awg cable, the final speaker cable product is 10awg. With the 18 I figure it must be 14-12 awg final product size. So really, with fairly easy to power speakers, and a short speaker run of under 12 feet, there should be no reason NOT to use 8 pair of 18awg wire to make the speaker cable instead of 8 pair of 16awg. Am I right? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13827 Registered: May-04 | . Yes. The speaker doesn't have much to do with the issues unless the speaker load is quite difficult. The issue with cable capacitance is one of amplifier stability. Just as many amplifiers do not like to drive the fairly high capacitive load of an electrostatic speaker, so too most amplifiers would prefer to see minimal capacitance on their outputs. However, circuits with a small amount of capacitance are sometimes used at the amplifier outputs to make the overall circuit more stable. It comes down to what the amplifier will tolerate. Zero feedback amplifiers were quite the rage not that long ago and some still exist though even what is billed as "zero NFB" is more likely zero global NFB and those amplifiers will utilize some amount of local NFB. With the possibe exception of some single ended triode amplifiers most any amplifier, and certainly any solid state amplifier, requires some degree of feedback for stability. What an amplifier doesn't need is the high dB's of NFB that you find in many mass market products that are just hanging on by a string but get good on paper numbers. So, with today's audiophile oriented amplifiers, capacitance in the cable shouldn't present much of a problem. Keep in mind capacitance and inductance are both the properties of the crossover components and extremes of either can result in rolled off high frequencies. That too would require an unusual amplifier paired with unusual cables. The issues of capacitance vs frequency response are more of an issue when you discuss interconnects than speakers cables. It is the spacing between the legs of the cable that affect the capacitance and the inductance, the closer the legs are to each other, the higher the numbers. Loosely braiding the legs will result in a more neutral cable though this sacrifices some degree of self-shielding that is the major benefit of the braiding effect. As a general rule I would advise you to make your cables look as much like Kimber products as possible. They've done the work of figuring out the best arrangement for low numbers vs good shielding. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13828 Registered: May-04 | . http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=diy%20cables&type= http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html http://sound.westhost.com/site-map.htm http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/cabrese.html . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2697 Registered: Jun-07 | Thanks Jan. It appears that most of the Kimber stuff used the 18awg wire for braiding. The 8? models use a total of 16 wires that complete at 10awg. The 4? series is 8 pair like I used of 18awg to add to 13awg total. So it appears that Kimber use 18awg wire or even 22awg conductor wire to create their cables. Interesting indeed. My cables look just like theirs as far as the braiding goes. I did two pair, of both, with the same results. I actually like the pair I made with the 18awg wire better based on the fact that its a nicer awg to work with for bi-wiring and the tech flex sleeving I am getting will fit easier. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13833 Registered: May-04 | . The sleeving is purley cosmetic though its fit appears to change the overall capacitance by bringing the conductor/insulators closer together and adding another layer of insulating material. I suppose it could be down to nothing more than what the DIY cables individual conductors have for their baseline measurement but you might consider forgoing the sheath. Also, look at the DIY CAT-5 cables in those links above. As with most DIY cables, they have had either very good success in certain systems or very negative reactions in others. . |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godLancaster, Lancashire England Post Number: 804 Registered: Jan-05 | Maybe I was harsh. I was very upset when I was on the forums last night. Wasn't in a good mood. Money is spent how anyone see's fit! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10457 Registered: Feb-05 | It's ok JJ we love ya anyway... ! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13097 Registered: Dec-04 | Have a Scotch, laddie! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2698 Registered: Jun-07 | I hear ya Jan. I mainly want to tech flex just for pure looks.lol. MmmmmmMm Scotch. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 209 Registered: Dec-06 | I'll admit, I haven't read much of this thread. I'm looking for cables myself and came across two manufacturers who discuss copper vs. silver coated copper. These two companies do not believe in the silver coated stuff. Most companies (vdh, Chord, QED, etc.) seem to use silver coated copper and it's generally seen by most as leading to a brighter, more detailed sound. The two companies in question are Atlas Cables and Pear Cable. Atlas is in line price wise with vdh, Chord, and the like; while Pear is, uh, let's just say expensive. They seem to have one interconnect and one speaker cable and they each cost thousands of dollars. I'm linking below what the two companies say: Atlas: Silver plated copper Seemingly good high frequency dynamics are a characteristic of silver plated copper conductors. Silver plated copper can appear to make a dull sounding system come to life, but at the expense of good quality bass or low frequency delivery. Silver plated copper cables can also prove fatiguing and irritating over prolonged listening periods. Silver plated copper, or cables employing two materials of differing resistance, are best avoided for audio interconnects and speaker cables. Whilst it's a cheap method for producing an audio interconnect that may initially sound exciting, we at Atlas Cables refuse to use silver plated copper for audio applications. Better results can be achieved with high quality processed copper and superior dielectrics; naturally these cost more than cheap silver plated copper. You can check www.atlascables.com, in the "About Cables" section they provide a lot of information if you want to learn about cables. Pear: Don't buy plated conductors! Many audio cable companies plate or clad their conductors with a different metal than the one used in the core. Usually this is either silver or tin plating on copper. All metals have different resistivities. Because the skin effect will push high frequency information to the outside of the conductor, it will encounter the different metal on the outside of the conductor. In the case of the silver (which has a lower resistivity than copper), the high frequency signal sees a lower impedance than the low frequency information. This will cause a distortion in the relative amplitudes of the high and low frequencies of the audio signal. In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what combination of metals is used. It is not a good idea to allow the high and low frequency information of the signal to see different impedances. The reason why silver and tin plated copper was invented was to reduce the corrosion rate of the wire. Do not be fooled into believing this relatively cheap wire was developed for some special audio application. http://www.pearcable.com/files/CableDesign.pdf Even though a lot of this is way over my head, it seems logical not to use two different materials as conductors. I am buying into what these two companies say, that all cables lose information, the best ones are those that lose the least. Their (at least Atlas', I didn't read too much on Pear) design philosophy is to make cables that do not color the sound, the way that seemingly silver plated copper wire does. I will probably buy some Atlas cables. I'm looking at the Equator Superior interconnect and the Equator 2.0 speaker cable. Pear Cable is a little out of my price range. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10459 Registered: Feb-05 | My dealer carried Atlas and vdH...no competition the vdH mopped up the floor with comparably priced Atlas..they dropped Atlas. I think they may still have some demo's if you are interested. At the demo prices they are a good buy. Hence my Gutwire speaker cable which I bought as a demo...at retail vdH is much better to my ears. And do keep this in mind that this represents my opinion and the opinion of the dealer...nothing more. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13836 Registered: May-04 | . Ya gotta believe somebody who tells you fine silver is the "cheap" way out. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 210 Registered: Dec-06 | Jan, Atlas also says this: 2.6 Pure silver Silver, with its lower resistivity, is a better conductor than copper, but any conductor, whether silver or copper, must have a reasonable cross sectional area when used for audio applications. Silver is much more expensive than copper and, in order to keep costs within reason, the cross sectional area of silver audio cables are often compromised to an extent that the resulting sound is 'bass light'. Good silver cables are, however, fast, dynamic and seamless through the audio spectrum and provide exceptional detail and instrument resolution. I don't think they are saying silver coating is cheap per se, they said it's a cheap way to produce an interconnect that at first sounds exciting. I think those are two different things. There is a right way to do silver and a wrong way. This is the argument. Pear gets into the science of it a little more in explaining why it's not ideal. Are they wrong? Silver coated copper seems to be everywhere in cables nowadays. It wouldn't be hard for these two companies to jump on board and therefore seem on par with the competition, so in not taking that easy route maybe they really believe what they say. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 211 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey Art, thanks for the tip. Eugene HiFi is the place, right? I may give them a call if I end up going with Atlas. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10463 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep, that's the place. Again I don't know what they have left...just thought I would mention it since you were interested. |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 115 Registered: Jun-09 | If your speakers use pure copper wiring I just don't see any reason for using silver coated cables. For the same reason I don't use gold plated jumpers nor banana or any other plugs, just plain speaker wire straight to the terminal. I haven't done research on this but I (notice) assume that using different metals in the signal path does affect the signal somehow. If silver coating would somehow be "superior" in signal transfer it shouldn't affect the sound of a system which uses pure copper in other parts. The inferior copper would set the quality (low) of the transfer and dictate the sound reproduction capabilities of the complete system. But if (as I assume is the case here) system which uses pure copper in other parts and silver coating in speaker wiring gives different sound to the system I can't anyhow conclude that it is because of the *superior* signal transfer capablities of the silver coated wire. On the contrary. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 212 Registered: Dec-06 | Wax, if the silver enhances the transmission of the higher frequencies as they come out of your amp then I would think even if the wiring inside the speaker is all copper the high frequency enchancement may still be noticeable as more of the higher frequencies enter the speaker than otherwise would be the case (even if the all copper wiring in the speaker itself ultimately slows some of that down, it's not going to slow it all down). There is a certain amount of high frequency signal leaving the amp, and either the speaker gets the full amount, or a bit less, or a bit more (probably perceived, through a loss of low frequency notes, since a cable isn't going to add anything). This is what the speaker has to work with. Or maybe it doesn't work that way, I don't know. Oh and thanks Art, and don't worry, I understand Eugene may have nothing left. |
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Silver Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 116 Registered: Jun-09 | "Wax, if the silver enhances the transmission of the higher frequencies as they come out of your amp" >>>>> Hmmm.. If silver has qualities which copper is incapable of achieving then ultimately speaker using copper shouldn't be able to reproduce it. If you copy a 16-bit signal in to 24-bit and then back again to 16-bit you will only have 16-bit and not the quality of a 24-bit signal, no? If the copy shares different characteristics to the original then there must be something happening to the signal and enhancing the "overall" quality just cant be the correct definition. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 213 Registered: Dec-06 | I suppose it would depend on whether the sound warms up once the signal hits copper wire or if the change is gradual as the signal passes through more and more of it. I wouldn't be surprised though if the cables used inside the actual components are copper only. Is adding another metal really desirable? It only seems logical that this would lead to some instability due to the difference between the two, primarily because they are being used at the exact same time, where the signal simultaneously comes in contact with silver and copper and the different properties they both have. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13839 Registered: May-04 | . "I don't think they are saying silver coating is cheap per se, they said it's a cheap way to produce an interconnect that at first sounds exciting. I think those are two different things. There is a right way to do silver and a wrong way. This is the argument. Pear gets into the science of it a little more in explaining why it's not ideal. Are they wrong? Silver coated copper seems to be everywhere in cables nowadays. It wouldn't be hard for these two companies to jump on board and therefore seem on par with the competition, so in not taking that easy route maybe they really believe what they say." "if the silver enhances the transmission of the higher frequencies as they come out of your amp then I would think even if the wiring inside the speaker is all copper the high frequency enchancement may still be noticeable as more of the higher frequencies enter the speaker than otherwise would be the case (even if the all copper wiring in the speaker itself ultimately slows some of that down, it's not going to slow it all down)." Here's my take on what you've posted - and keep in mind I am not an electrical engineer and I haven't taken the time to read the entirity of all the pages you've mentioned. The difference in "resistivity" or "conductivity" of silver and copper is minimal; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity#Table_of_resistivities http://metals.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.reade.com/Particl e%5FBriefings/elec%5Fres.html Therefore, the argument that silver will have "dramatic" effects on the transmission of only high frequencies is, IMO, pretty bogus when we are discussing typical runs of ic or speaker cable. Sorry, I don't have the math skills nor wish to take the time to calculate exactly what the difference in level drop would be over a 2-3m ic or 12' speaker cable but I think, given the measurements provided per meter, we can agree there just isn't going to be much difference. And that we probably won't hear any significant difference in level until that difference has crossed a threshold of audibility. Neither company presents any facts to back up their claims that silver will push (high) frequencies beyond the point of audibility. They really, in the quotes you've provided and my cursory look at the Pear pages, don't offer any real facts so much as they present opinions, buzzwords and marketing speak. Further the level drop due to "resistance" alone is rather constant across the audio bandwidth and not at the high frequencies alone. The quotes contain multiple references to "skin effect". Mention skin effect to any electrical engineer and ask what their effect would be at audio frequencies and you will be laughed out of the room. There is no accepted theory that has skin effect functioning at audio frequencies and the "known" effects occur at many muiltiples of 20kHz. Skin effect has been used for a few decades by audiophile cable manufacturers to explain the preceived differences in cables - one explanation among many that really have no basis in electrical/antenna/transmission line/materials theory other than there is a subjective sense that something must change and we don't really know what so what about this? "Skin effect" has become an accepted buzz word among true believers in the audiophile community because in many cases of cable construction they have no perfect, provable explanation for why cables do what they seem to do. And so they select what seems to be the most likely but not always the most accepted by the engineering society who continue to view audiophiles with, at best, suspicion and, at worst, outright derision. By now the response among audiophiles to terms such as "skin effect" have become as purely Pavlovian as mentioning "death tax" to a Republican or "femi-n@zi" to a liberal. All reason and common sense leaves their possession. This is not to say skin effect isn't taking place, just to say no one has proven this occurs at audio frequencies yet almost all audiophile cable manufacturers cling to this as one reason for what their cables do. But there is nothing that indicates skin effect in audio cables is real. Keep that in mind whenever you read any cable page or thread. The concept that plated materials interfere with transmission of signals is rather bogus too IMO. Do these manufacturers who make these claims not realize they are terminating their cables with connectors made in almost all cases from a brass alloy shank which has been machined or stamped* into shape then that shank has been plated with a nickel alloy and then most likely a gold alloy on top of the nickel alloy for looks alone (compare the resistivity of all of those materials and you'll see gold, nickel and brass are not very good conductors but gold does resist oxidation rather well). Soldered (non-crimped) cables will tout audiophile approved "silver solder" in most cases which is composed of about 4% silver and the rest is tin and lead. Check out tin and lead on the tables provided above. Most of these audiophile approved pieces of audio jewelry take the resistance from minimal amounts per foot in the actual conductor to upwards of 75-150 Ohms of impedance - 75 Ohms being the ideal for an audio connection in most instances but that number is seldom realized in those big honkin' RCA's on most costly audiophile ic's. So what were these guys saying about plating and resistivity/conductivity? There are a few manufacturers of RCA's who feel the materials of the typical audiophile RCA are all wrong for transmitting audio frequency singals. Whether Atlas or Pear go along with these ideas is something I don't know the answer to. It would seem to me if they wish to argue about the resistivity of materials in their conductors they should be equally concerned about the materials in their connectors. "2.6 Pure silver Silver, with its lower resistivity, is a better conductor than copper, but any conductor, whether silver or copper, must have a reasonable cross sectional area when used for audio applications. Silver is much more expensive than copper and, in order to keep costs within reason, the cross sectional area of silver audio cables are often compromised to an extent that the resulting sound is 'bass light'. Good silver cables are, however, fast, dynamic and seamless through the audio spectrum and provide exceptional detail and instrument resolution." This is a cable retailer aguing against the cost of audiophile cables? OK, if this is a retailer of "cheap" cables, then that's fine. But cheap cables are cheap cables. Whether you believe cables make improvements or not, what about the listener who can afford high quality cables? Why shouldn't they buy silver cables if they are "fast, dynamic and seamless through the audio spectrum and provide exceptional detail and instrument resolution"? Because Atlas also says, "Better results can be achieved with high quality processed copper and superior dielectrics; naturally these cost more than cheap silver plated copper." Hmmm, shouldn't a silver cable and a copper cable be the same in the diameter of the conductor if the problem lies in the diameter of the conductor to avoid the issues mentioned by Pear? " ... any conductor, whether silver or copper, must have a reasonable cross sectional area when used for audio applications." I'm confused. Let's see here ... So copper costs more than fine silver? Hmmmm!!! once again! Pear doesn't seem to think so, "Silver is much more expensive than copper ... " Rats! "The top five silver producing countries include Peru, Mexico, China, Australia and Chile, according to The Silver Institute. Most silver mines are really lead-zinc-silver mines, copper-silver mines or gold-silver mines, with 70 to 80 percent of all silver produced as a byproduct of copper, lead and zinc mining, according to Casey." http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/a-silver-lining-in-an-unstable-market-512 97.aspx Rats again!!! Looks to me as if copper is about $2.80 per lb. while silver is at just under $15 per pound! http://www.ewayco.com/web-link-page2.html Yikes! and double Yikes!!! Those must be some kind of "superior" dielectrics Atlas is using! OK, as to silver leading to "thin bass" due to cost and subsequent conductor size, well, that would also appear to be a fair amount of BS to me. Yep! you can buy a lot more copper for the same amount of dollars than you can silver and that means you can make a thicker cable or a longer cable for the same amount of materials cost. Right? But you would have to determine just what might cause "thin bass" when you used thin cables made of either copper or silver. Just saying silver results in thin bass is a bit absurd, don't you think? And not backed by any factual evidence. What happens if you use thin copper? Going back to the charts at the top of the page we see the resistance is not that dissimilar between silver and copper. So is the difference between copper and silver what results in "thin bass"? Probably not. Is the thin cable itself the culprit when we experience "thin bass"? Depending on just how thick any male who sits alone in the dark listening to perceived voices coming from self described images and is quite @nal about their possessions feels their cables should be, possibly so.  The quote doesn't explain why thin bass occurs other than to suggest thin cables are bad. Hmmmm, if skin effect is bad and thin cables will not exhibit the same degree of skin effect as thick cables, what's so bad about that? Maybe it's the resistance thing again. Is it possible a thin cable of either material would produce "thin bass"?! Since I use very thin cables throughout my system I can tell you that has not been my subjective experience. Possibly the problem lies in the match of amplifier and speaker to which the thin cable is attached. Something not mentioned by the web page. Yes, if the amplifier has a somewhat high-ish output impedance and the speaker load is very reactive (swings from high to low impedance staying quite low in the bass frequencies) the resulting sound will be shifted in frequency response as can be predicted by Ohm's Law. Speaker loads that dip down into the 2 Ohm range in the bass region would be "thin" when driven by an amplifier with an output impedance of, say, 2 Ohms (a very unusual amplifier indeed and certainly not any direct coupled solid state amplifier I'm aware of). Cable lengths of over 20' made with 26 AWG cable would only make this matter worse. However, IMO, anyone who makes that sort of match deserves what they get and in the end should complain loudly to their retailer for allowing them to be so stupid. So the problem of "thin bass" is not one of materials and not one of conductor diameter - or at least we can suppose that since no other facts are presented by the web page. It is one of a poor match between amplifier and speaker load made worse by another poor choice in cables. That is what Pear tried to imply, isn't it? " ... cross sectional area of silver audio cables are often compromised to an extent that the resulting sound is 'bass light'. I think the word "often" is often overused in marketing. In conclusion I see most cable web pages as 1) a statement of the designer/manufacturer/retailer's beliefs - often not supported by any real evidence but typically full of audiophile buzzwords used to justify a position. The designer hears what they hear through the filter of their own priorities and wants us to believe we will hear exactly what the designer has heard when we use their cables in our own systems which probably are not like the designer's systems. The designer's beliefs are then translated through the pen of the marketing person even when the designer and the marketing person are the same person. And, 2) contradictory in the extreme. Read two web pages for two different cables and you'll find people contradicting each other in many, many cases. This occurs I think because there are no rules and accepted theories that explain why cables should affect the sound quality as many people feel they do. So web pages for cables become not that different than web pages for fishing lures (or golf accessories) where every page has another idea for why their lure is better than the other guy's and why fish react to their lure as they do. So, believe what you care to believe, that's what marketing is all about. But realize when you are being fed a line of BS too. *How do you change the resistance per foot in any piece of metal? You pound it/stamp it/machine it/extrude it into a different shape and/or thickness. That's how almost all RCA's/XLR's/spade lugs/banana plugs/etc. are made. . |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 214 Registered: Dec-06 | This is a cable retailer aguing against the cost of audiophile cables? OK, if this is a retailer of "cheap" cables, then that's fine. But cheap cables are cheap cables. Whether you believe cables make improvements or not, what about the listener who can afford high quality cables? Why shouldn't they buy silver cables if they are "fast, dynamic and seamless through the audio spectrum and provide exceptional detail and instrument resolution"? Because Atlas also says, "Better results can be achieved with high quality processed copper and superior dielectrics; naturally these cost more than cheap silver plated copper." Atlas isn't arguing that people shouldn't buy silver cables. They are presenting what they feel makes a good silver cable and what they feel makes a less than optimal silver cable. What they are arguing against is silver coated copper. Atlas makes entry level and much more expensive cables. They are equivalent to QED, Chord, vdh, etc. in that regard. Hmmm, shouldn't a silver cable and a copper cable be the same in the diameter of the conductor if the problem lies in the diameter of the conductor to avoid the issues mentioned by Pear? " ... any conductor, whether silver or copper, must have a reasonable cross sectional area when used for audio applications." I'm confused. Let's see here ... So copper costs more than fine silver? Hmmmm!!! once again! Pear doesn't seem to think so, "Silver is much more expensive than copper ... " Rats! It is Atlas who said "silver is much more expensive than copper", not Pear. They seem to be arguing that silver plating is the cheap way out and may lead to problems, not that silver is cheap relative to copper or that silver is necessarily a bad choice of metal. To me they clearly acknowledge these latter two points are not the case at all. In terms of having a large enough diameter whether it be copper or silver, yes one would think that would help alleviate any bass deficiencies if we are to believe Atlas/Pear. For what it's worth, Atlas makes certain speaker cable with varying diameters for users to choose from depending on whether they want a little less/more bass boost. They supposedly use a very pure copper, 6N, or 99.99997% pure. I'm not sure yet if this is better than most other companies but this is obviously one of their main design choices. I acknowledge that this may be (probably is) mostly marketing talk. The reason I posed it here is to get opinions like yours, Jan. I'll look into the links you posted, comparing the two metals in terms of their conductive properties. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 215 Registered: Dec-06 | I was interested in your point about connectors Jan. These are the plugs Atlas recommends for their speaker cable: The Atlas Z plug has stood the test of time. Using beryllium copper for the contact area, It's designed to make a 100% contact within the 4mm female socket. The body is made from copper and it's available for home assembly with grub screws to make contact with the conductors. When factory fitted or fitted by an Atlas appointed custom cable centre, they're cold welded under pressure in order to amalgamate the conductors to the plug in an air tight seal. The outer sleeve is finished in black coloured ABS or in a turned brass with a fine oven applied powder coat finish. The Atlas Z plug is justifiably considered to be one of best 4mm plugs available. Features. low resistance. High conductivity. 80% copper with beryllium 4mm section giving 100% contact. Corrosion resistant. Accepts conductors up to 5mm dia. Solder free for a cold weld air tight interface between the plug and conductor or grub screw contact for DIY enthusiasts. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13840 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, yes, Atlas claims, ""Silver is much more expensive than copper ... " They also say, "Better results can be achieved with high quality processed copper and superior dielectrics; naturally these cost more than cheap silver plated copper." If they are meaning to say cheap copper sounds bad, that's one thing. Though you would be hard pressed to find cheap copper in any decent cable of even moderate cost in today's market. The construction of the cable and its connectors will have considerably more effect on the quality of the cable's performance than would the quality of the copper itself. If they are meaning to imply silver plating a good copper cable is less desirable than just a good copper cable, then I would say that is nothing more than their opinion - an opinion not shared by other cable manufacturer's in many instances. Pear links silver plating with tin plating. Those are vastly different materials both in cost and in what even the most measurement oriented objectivist view of "wire is wire" would tolerate. As long as you realize the companies are "arguing" against an opinion they disagree with and they are not always using facts in an honest manner to back up their own arguments, then I have no problem with what either company puts on their own web page. Though, personally, I have always had a bit of a tough time with any company or retailer who sells their product by telling me what is wrong with the other guy's stuff. "Atlas makes entry level and much more expensive cables. They are equivalent to QED, Chord, vdh, etc. in that regard." In what regard? Cost? "In terms of having a large enough diameter whether it be copper or silver, yes one would think that would help alleviate any bass deficiencies if we are to believe Atlas/Pear." Consider this, for decades the standard for speaker connection was 18 AWG zip cord. This was so when corner horns were the ultimate in bass response in a home system. It was so when AR introduced their first speaker with deep bass extension in an acoustic suspension package and still so when Advent introduced a compact speaker that could manage 32Hz without trouble. What "bass deficiencies" are you thinking of that wire guage would alleviate? "For what it's worth, Atlas makes certain speaker cable with varying diameters for users to choose from depending on whether they want a little less/more bass boost." I would tell you that is virtually impossible to do only by manipulating the diameter of the cable. Do you have a link to that section of their web site? "They supposedly use a very pure copper, 6N, or 99.99997% pure. I'm not sure yet if this is better than most other companies but this is obviously one of their main design choices." As I said, most copper found in modern audio cables is quite high quality - thank the computer industry for that, it hardly pays for a bulk cable manufacturer not to use high quality copper. I suppose you might ask whether there is an audible difference between 6N's and 4N's copper. Or whether long grain structure is a more important feature. Or whether there might be even more important things to consider when buying cables. Don't miss the forest while examining the leaves. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13841 Registered: May-04 | . "These are the plugs Atlas recommends for their speaker cable ... " The question I would ask is, do you believe cables can make a significant difference in the sound quality of your system? . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2702 Registered: Jun-07 | Dan- Do remember that in order to sell a cable that costs Pear 50 dollars to make for 1200 dollars takes a lot of marketing and trickery IMO. Personally, unless I personally tested and seen it on paper, I would have a hard time believing anything a company that sold a Speaker cable for over a grand, had to say. Thats just my opinion. LOL. Marketing 101. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 216 Registered: Dec-06 | If they are meaning to imply silver plating a good copper cable is less desirable than just a good copper cable, then I would say that is nothing more than their opinion - an opinion not shared by other cable manufacturer's in many instances. I think this is what they are saying. In what regard? Cost? Yes, I was thinking in terms of the price their products are sold at, and also perhaps in the attention they get in the UK audio press. I would tell you that is virtually impossible to do only by manipulating the diameter of the cable. Do you have a link to that section of their web site? I do - http://www.atlascables.com/index.php?id=73 The question I would ask is, do you believe cables can make a significant difference in the sound quality of your system? The truth is, I'm not sure. My one real experience came when I swapped out the cheap Monster cable that was included with my system for Chord Rumour 2 speaker cable. I felt there was a clear advantage with the Chord cable, particularly in the bass region. With that experience alone I feel that they do make a difference, however I tend to agree with others who say the differences are probably subtle. They won't drastically change how a system sounds the way other components can, but they can be used to fine tune an already nicely performing system. Nick - I don't know if I'd dismiss Pear's claims so quickly, but yes, I do understand the marketing needed in order to sell a $1,200 cable. When I buy a product, I tend to try to do my research and determine the best option. It seems that with audio it goes even further. I'm sure many others here can relate. That said, I have heard many different systems over the years and all but a few of them, especially when you move up from entry level, sounded very nice. I think most of these companies know how to make a good product. The cable companies are probably no exception, and most any cable you buy will likely yield good results if the system itself has some synergy. But that doesn't seem to stop me from wanting to compare. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13843 Registered: May-04 | . Dan - I'll post something tonight. Yesterday evening and today are not times for sitting at the computer. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13102 Registered: Dec-04 | I hope you have something fun to do instead, JV. Dan, if changing your speaker runs made such a difference from the old ones, then perhaps... The pieces were of vastly different design characteristics; The old ones were in a state of decay in connectivity; or The monsters just outright suck. Maybe? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 217 Registered: Dec-06 | Or my ears were playing tricks on me. It's possible. Maybe I should fish out the Monster and see how it sounds. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13105 Registered: Dec-04 | Might be interesting. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2088 Registered: May-06 | I have posted in the past about the construction of my DIY ICs and speaker wire. They come from the theory of "less is more" with the thin gauge magnet wire and .9999 pure silver. Dan, I had strictly strands of Radio Shack copper wire in my speaker wire, amounted to about 18 gauge. I used clear packing tape to keep them parallel for the 8 foot run. I added a single strand of 28 gauge pure silver and found better extension on the treble range. No harshness, just seemingly better extension and weight of the sound. That frequency range seemed more rolled off without the silver. Bass was not affected. FWIW. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13120 Registered: Dec-04 | And I attest to it. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 638 Registered: Jul-07 | In my experience, cables with silver content have always had an unnaturalness to them. There is an apparent lift or extension to the very upper most frequencies, but it's a presentation I have never experienced in a live musical performance. It seems exaggerated somehow......or forced, like the treble is under a microscope. Of course I've only head a few silver content cables and this stuff is all very personal, so I can see how the silver 'affect' can be preferred by some folks. It's very easy to get caught up in differences and not necessarily distinguish better or worse.....or closer or further away from a goal, if one is in mind. Several times I've ditched a cable or cord and gone back and preferred it after extended listening with the one I thought I preferred. The one thing I have stuck with since changing was the $6 worth of Radio Shack hookup wire I use as speaker wire. For whatever reason, it sounds more natural than anything else I have tried. Go figure. My only advice in this arena is to go into it without prejudice, as the 'right' answer for you might be one you least expect. Price has absolutely nothing to do with outcome. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2381 Registered: Nov-05 | I've got some new speaker wire coming in about a week. My bi-wire VDH cables are stretched to the limit on the left speaker run and I want a bit more playing around room for wider placement. I really like these cables over previous 10g Monster and bi-wire Kordz cables, but they cost an arm and a leg unlike the price I paid on Ebay. I'm trying a new set from Tara Labs so I'll let you know if they are as good, worse or the same after a bit of burn in time. Whether you believe or not in burn in time for cables, it won't hurt. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithCanada Post Number: 2218 Registered: Feb-04 | Oh boy. A speaker wire discussion on eCoustics is like bringing up religion or politics at a Christmas party: A good way to loose friends. So far so good, but as the sarge on Hill Street Blues used to say: let's be careful out there! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10502 Registered: Feb-05 | LOL Peter...good to see you my friend. Looking forward to a report on the Tara's MR. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2092 Registered: May-06 | Good post Chris. It is personal, I tried my DIY without the silver and did not like the difference. Too, each kit and set up is different, it just happens to work better in my wire with silver. I have no shrillness or lisps from vocals with it either. Note that I have one 28 ga. silver to two 18 ga and one 28 ga of copper per side (+/-). Also, I had no problem going back to my DIY speaker wire, swapping out my MIT Shotgun S2 speaker wire. If I had not found the MITs to improve the 2nd coil performance with the Gallo sub-amp I would have just sold them. "Price has absolutely nothing to do with outcome." Absolutely correct, although I suspect cost has the ability to color sound for some folks. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 639 Registered: Jul-07 | MW, where did you get your 28 ga. silver ? That would be my preferred way to experiment, by just adding strands to what I have. Perhaps I just haven't heard the right combination. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2096 Registered: May-06 | CH, I just sent you a PM. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13145 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike's hi-fi emporium and jewellers shop, how may I direct your call? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2415 Registered: Nov-05 | Have had the Tara Labs Prism Helix 8 Bi-wire cables on in place of the VDH CS122 Helix Quad and found them to be a slight improvement. A little more detail overall, bass hasn't lost anything but gained a little in that there is a bit more control, individual notes are even more clearly followed. The resonance of piano and acoustic notes seem stronger and have more punch and decay. Overall, both vocals and music seem smoother, and edge I didn't think was evident has disappeared. The differences while certainly evident to me, aren't huge. The VDH cables are great, the best I've ever used until now. They are quite heavy guage silver coated, copper strands in a carbon sheath, the Tara Labs are thin, solid wire, twisted pairs into each connection on the speaker end and two twisted pairs into each amp connection. My wife hears no difference, but she hasn't really had time to seriously listen. It does take hearing reference tracks to discern some of the differences - they are there but not always so obvious. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10561 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm not a big fan of Tara Labs...they are an Oregon company (originally) so I'm familiar with their products and have used them in my home before. The cables I've listened to came more from the Analysis Plus/Nordost type of sound that emphasizes detail and air over musicality. All three brands are excellent just not to my taste. Tara Labs midrange cables and Analysis Plus low end cables represent good value and to my ears hang together musically more than their upper end products. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2724 Registered: Jun-07 | Sounds like fun. I have been playing around with cables, and so far the best pair I have made are with 16awg conductor wire. Three wires for negative, three for positive. I put them in a vise and braided them. Then once I had the two negatives and possitives done, I twisted them together counter clockwise. Making a total 11awg speaker cable. 6 conductor wires of 16awg a piece. I then put on the Deltron banana plugs which are the best banana plugs I have heard so far. I dont put the plastic ends on them at first. I then cut 8 pieces of 1/4 inch 2:1 heat shrink( 1 inch cuts). Then I cut 4 pieces of 3/8 inch 2:1 heat (1 inch cuts). I un-ravel 6 inches of each cable end. Then measure to make sure. Then slide the 1/4 inch heat shrink on all 8 ends on the two speaker cables to the 6 inch mark. Shrink it. Then I slide the 3/8 inch heat shrink piece over the whole cable to perfectly cover the two heat shrink pieces on each end. Then shrink again. This makes sure nothing is going anywhere. Then I take 1/4 inch(expandable to 1/2 inch) Tech Flex, which a nice line design on it, and feed each cable through until each end of the tech flex in half and inch over the heat shrink. Then I slide another 3/8 inch piece ( 1 inch cut) of heat shrink over and perfectly match it up with the last one so that half of it is sealing the tech flex down. Shrink it on all ends ( 4 total). Then I put the caps on the banana plugs.Wa-lah. I also made 4- 6 inch pieces the exact same way but with clamps on one end of each for Bi-Wiring my speakers. These past pair I just described, I tested against some Ultralink cable that costs 16 dollars a foot, monster cable that costs 27 dollars a foot, and kimber cable that costs 36 dollars a foot. This cable I made blew them all out of the water. Not even close. I am proud. To add, I have made a few now using silver, copper and silver coated copper. To my ears, the most musical sounding so far is the copper. But the silver was nice too. Silver adds to the top end but in my system seemed to be a bit more fatiguing to listen to over a period of time. Also, the silver conductor wire is much harder to work with. Not nearly as flexible in braiding, twisting, and such. I have braided and twisted. Both with good affects. I will post pics in a few days. Next up some a bi-wired design all in one. Then power cables.lol |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2416 Registered: Nov-05 | Support local industry Art (grin). What you say is fair enough, we are all different and have different gear. By no means am I saying these are the cables to beat all cables, there is plethora of brand and types, but for the price I'm certainly enthusiastic about these as I was/am the VDH. They are 2 mtrs longer than the VDH to no detriment obviously. I have much more music to listen and keep evaluating, but so far so good. BTW - just upgraded to wireless broadband and wow - finally some decent speed :-) |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2417 Registered: Nov-05 | Good stuff Nick, you are having fun. Good to be a handyman :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2726 Registered: Jun-07 | lol Don't put a hammer in my hand.lol. I am good with math, and know certain things, but being a good handyman is not one of them.lol. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 651 Registered: Jul-07 | That's awesome Nick. I'm going to have to try something like that. I'd probably just go with bare wire connections though. |
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