Spring Cleaning
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2478 Registered: Jun-07 | Well, I have my landscaping done, some painting and house cleaning done. Now it is time for the spring cleaning of some amps and pre amps. Question is : What tools do I need? Compressed air? Spray? Which? What should I be looking for? Bulging caps? Dirty what? Help? What are the benefits? Any info is greatly appreciated. I am fairly familiar with circuitry, just not of this type. If I break something, I don't care. Gives me an excuse to buy something. So its a win win situation. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12319 Registered: Dec-04 | The benefits are many, and payback can be pretty quick if you get any improvements, Nick. De-oxit for outside coonnections, rca, etc. Standard contact cleaner for surface mount componants. Nylon toothbrush. Can of compressed air. GROUND STRAP No vaccuumn cleaner! tighten all screws, chassis and GROUND tightn all fasteners, torque Torroid clamp well. Basically just clean it all, pay attention to exposed transistors, clean the pins well and be sure that the mount screw is tight, that is the primary heat sink. Do not spray at the transistors, the qhite goop is heat sink compound, and must stay. If the goop is gone, buy a tube. Buy a tube abyhow, if you will do this again. Remove fuses and clean contacts and fuse with fine emery cloth. At this time, ensure that the proper fuse is actually in place. And have fun! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13573 Registered: May-04 | . No emory cloth. It leaves small pits in the surfaces and you want to make the contact area as clean as possible with the smoothest transistion between sufaces. Use no product that would leave a residue between contact points. Emory cloth will actually incease the rate of oxidation in most cases and certainly if you scratch the thin gold plating on a connector. If you can't get the contact clean with "DeOxit" and a Q-tip, then just let it go. Do not drown your component. Lots of equipment comes into repair shops after the owner has tried a hamfisted attempt at cleaning. Cleaning fluid can melt the conductive plastic in modern controls. Spray the Q-tip not the component. Don't spray anything you are not sure can handle the spray. Wipe your components down carefully, cleaning fluids melt silk screened prinitng inks. I wouldn't mess with transistors. If the heatsink goop is brown or missing, then you're going to need a tech to do some looking around before larger problems arise. If you use a tube amp with adjustable bias, now is the time to check the bias setting. Be careful of surface mount connectors, you can easily damage them. And do not think "tight" is not good enough. You can easily crack or damage a component or strip the threads by overtightening the screws. You should be able to tell which components require "tight" and which require "snug". Check your speakers for loose screws but keep in mind not all screws on the drivers need to be torqued like the head bolts on a 428 c.u.i. Wedge Ford. Drivers respond to how they are compressed against the baffle. Play with tight to snug screws to determine whether you should allow a bit of play for the driver. Some manufacturers decouple the driver from the baffle and tightening the mounting screws will undo this design. If the driver screw needs to be snugged up and the screws are not capable of biting into the MDF, try removing the driver or working carefully with the driver in place and inserting a toothpick and a very small glob of Elmer's Glue into the screwhole. Let it set up and then retighten the screw. Use the correct size screwdriver or nut driver and you won't damage the head of the screw/bolt. Connector cups on speakers should have their screws tightened and the connectors should be cleaned as well as those on your amp. Clean your spade lugs. If your cable ends are oxidized, your connections are not gas tight and you need to either solve this problem or switch to a different connector type. IC's and plugs should be carefully cleaned and once again not drowned with fluid. Spray the Q-tip only. Put a small amount of fluid on the center pin of your RCA's with the damp Q-tip and then insert the plug into the jack and gently twist the plug to clean the inside of the RCA. Lower priced gear often mounts the RCA's on a pressed board plate and too much pressure willl damage the connection posibly resulting in an expensive repair bill. Most cleaning fluids can also act as contact enhancers and you do not want fluid migrating between hot and ground pins. Buy some contact enhancer if you can apply it sparingly and correctly. Try the Walker product or just the companion to the DeOxit spray. Check your turntable's set up and clean all the connection points. Afterward, recheck cartridge alignment and arm balance. Make sure the table is level and on a secure platform. It's a good idea to minimize vibration while you're inside the components. If you have large capacitors and resistors in something like a tube amp, use a bead of silcon aquarium sealant at the base of the component to damp its vibration. Buy some Sorbothane pads to use on the inside of the top and bottom covers to minimize resonances. Do not block air vents and do not overdamp anything. Try a double bagged sandwich style ziplock baggie of sand or lead shot on top of flimsy top plates. Buy some anti-static spray from an office supply store and wipe down the dielectric on your ic's and speaker cables. Buy some racquetballs or a few inner tubes to use as an isolation device under various components. I use the racquetballs on top of QuikCaps from the plumbing supply department of Home Depot for my isolation. A friend recently began using the cup type wooden furniture slides with large marbles between the top and bottom cups for isolation. Inner tubes need only a small amount of air to provide a lossy suspention. Inner tubes leak and need to be checked for air pressure - use some StopLeak before hand. Dress you cables keeping power, speaker and ic cables loosely bundled together and separate from the other types. If you have to cross power cables, do so at a 90 degree angle. Use a high quality surge protector where appropriate. Read a few speaker set up programs and try a new speaker placement. I like the W.A.S.P. set up as a starting point; http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=wasp%20speaker%20placeme nt&type=, but smoke what you got. Above all, use a large ceramic resistor to drain off the power supply caps before you stick your hand inside any amplifier. Even if the amp has been unplugged for a day, there is still the possibility of a lethal shock if you touch the wrong components. Always use rubber handled tools inside a component. Remove all rings and jewelry before you put your hands inside any electrical component. And above all else read this; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/567154.html, before you think about doing anything inside a component. Freeze your CD's. Twice, and allow them to come back to room temperature as slowly as possible. Place the CD's in a plastic bag and wrap the bag in aluminum foil to slow warming. Freeze overnight each time. After everything is clean and sounding its best, place a small sealed container of Kosher salt on top and to one side of your component and another container of sugar on the other side. The quantity is not important just that each are in place. If you're curious about the effect of each thing you've done, don't do everything at once and then listen. Try cleaning your components and dressing cables and then listen. Then work on your speakers. Then anti-static your cables and so on. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2480 Registered: Jun-07 | Wow, thanks guys. Really appreciate it. The amps I will be cleaning is the Bryston gear. Can I kill myself with shock?lol. I will use rubber handled gear. The Bryston has been unplugged for the day. Should I wait longer? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13574 Registered: May-04 | . Depends on where you intend to stick your hands. One day for a solid state amp should be sufficient. I would say clean what you can outside the amp and go from there. Keep one hand in your pocket when you reach inside the amp. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2481 Registered: Jun-07 | Ok, will do. The amp, once in a blue moon, seems to be building some sort of static in the right channel in which comes through the tweeter on the speaker. I have narrowed it down to the power amp(its old). It only does it, once in a very blue moon, and when it does only for a few seconds. Also, when I turn it off, it takes the right channel much longer to discharge than the left. Any ideas? I love the sound of the 3B, so if I can correct it then I will keep it. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12323 Registered: Dec-04 | Clean it, you know more than you have let on, Nick. Phone me if you have a question. I pulled a mysterious POS from the output stage of an older Classe amp that sounded bad, right between the legs of a triac. Gained a LOT of good sound just for being there and cleaning. Scuff the ground connectors and retighten. You don't have to do too much to the Bryston, there is not much n there, which is a good thing. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2482 Registered: Jun-07 |  Thanks Nuck. Opening it up right now. DeOxit is only sold in a few specialty stores in Canada so I have chosen IDEAL Contact/Pot and Switch cleaner. Local Home Hardware had it. Here I go. One hand in pocket. Or just ground myself first. lol. I will keep you two posted. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12325 Registered: Dec-04 | You have my #, no? Sending a pm. 911 on standby, honey, is the insurance payed up? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2483 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL. I got it apart right now. Thanks Nuck, I will call you if I have a question. Or if I need a ride to the hospital.lol. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2484 Registered: Jun-07 | lol forgot to hit send on that last message. Nuck/Jan - So far so good, power amp is back together and running great. Sounds fantastic. I cleaned what I could, and what needed it, as well as changed both fuses on the back with matching model of fuses. Also from Home Hardware. It is sounding great. I also switched banana plugs and re-cut the ends on the speaker cable for sh!t$ and giggles. Next up is the pre amp. If I can figure out how to get into the damn thing. I have taken out every single screw on the thing and yet it is still intact. I believe I need a torque to get the front off so the top will come off. Let me find one and keep you guys posted. P.S. If it continues to sound as good as it is right now then I will skip my audition next week. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1927 Registered: May-06 | Started down JV's list above. Cleaned contacts and surfaces and shelves. Tried to open Pre-amp cover but found an unwilling screw. Took can of pressurized air to it through top vent. Restripped ends of DIY speaker cable. Since I just had my TT apart recently and the amps were recently opened I knew they were clean. The one thing I did that had the most impact to my sound was to brush off the hair ball that accumulated on my stylus from an Echoes LP that I just ran through the Nitty Gritty before playing it. I knew the pollen count was high in Dallas but this is a bit over the top. LOL |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12329 Registered: Dec-04 | You have the right idea, Nick. It's a Torx #10 Pick up hand cleaner. Go easy on the spray, it stinks in the house...you found out already...oops. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2486 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL Nice Mike. Nuck- It smells bad, but not as bad as the inside of the 3B did.lol. It smelled like 20 year old mans a $ $. I was easy on the spray, only spraying the actual Q-tip and giving stuff a whip down. It is still running in, playing some Eagles Hell freezes over spinning on the Apollo, making beautiful music. So much slam from this big heavy beast. Torx 10 I have. Just not here. I have tons at work. Am going to bring the pre amp with me tomorrow. I have the Apollo running right into the back of the 3B with the volume screws on the front set to about 15 percent. Smooth baby. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13575 Registered: May-04 | . Nick - Since you're using the Apollo. there's a little trick that MW and I have used to make the unit sound better. Are you near an art supply house of any value? . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2487 Registered: Jun-07 | My work is, yup. What is it Jan? Will it pass WAF?lol. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13577 Registered: May-04 | . What's your wife's favorite color? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2488 Registered: Jun-07 | Blue,Red,Browns. lol? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13578 Registered: May-04 | . OK, go to the art supply house and get a few sheets of colored paper. Not too thick, a thin sheet of paper works best here - Canson makes a line that's perfect for this appplication. Pick colors that you think will make the player sound better. Include a turquiose, a purple, orange and yellow along with whatever colors your wife likes. Canson makes a few colors in their "effects" line (can't beat that name, eh?) that are metalicized on one side, pick up one or two of those including their plum color. You'll want to try both the plain and the metalicized side facing up. Cut these sheets down to fit in the bottom of the Apollo's disc tray and secure it with small bits of double stick tape. Cut it back sufficiently so the paper doesn't interfere with the laser sled. You can use a CD as a template to get the right size. Try a few colors and report back. If you can find a laser etched paper with a holographic pattern on it, try it too. This is probably easier to find at a party supply house or some sort of shop that sells wrapping papers. Possibly you won't notice anything, but you'll have only spent a few bucks and your time. . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1929 Registered: May-06 | Add on to above post; Cut another circle large enough to be taped to the inside glass of the lid. Use the same colors at the same time for both the bottom of the disc tray and the inside of the lid. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2489 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL!!!! LOL!!!! LOL!!!! WTF!!! Are you two serious or pulling my B===D. I mean, I will try it if you want me to. Whats with the different colors?lol. This have to do with the laser in the player? No really, you guys serious? UPDATE on the 3B and Pre : After a 24 hour run-in I woke up this morning to the same crackling sound coming from the right speaker. Called Bryston, and after some talk about the amps and the pre amp, say, again, that the technology in power amps and pre amps has not changed and that they still use a lot of the same parts in the amp as they did in my model. That said, and the price he gave me to completely re-furbish both my amp and pre amp, I have shipped the units off to them today. It is only a little over an hour down the 401 to Bryston from where I live and work, so shipping is cheap and fast. They are going to re-cap it, do some other electronic stuff, replace both power cables, clean them, and replace some other stuff with new stuff.lol. He said it shouldn't cost more than 400 for both units together. A lot cheaper than buying new for now. |
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Gold Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 1114 Registered: Dec-06 | Just do it, Nick. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2490 Registered: Jun-07 | Which? The art paper in the CDP Stryvn? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2491 Registered: Jun-07 | I wasnt sure if Jan was pulling my leg, but if you guys are serious, I will do it for sure. I just didnt want to be the guy that went a did it, and then had you all laughing at me later.lol. Just making sure thats all. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12332 Registered: Dec-04 | It is legit, Nick. Use very thin double side sticky, and leave enough room for the lens travel. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2492 Registered: Jun-07 | Ok, I will try. I must wait for my amps get back from Bryston first to try. But I will gather the materials. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13581 Registered: May-04 | . Nicholas! You offend me.  . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3285 Registered: May-05 | Clean your CDs with Pledge Multi Surface. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12335 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh gawd, here we go again, Nick there are miriad tweaks to try. Now to freeze the Apollo... |
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Gold Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 1115 Registered: Dec-06 | Does Larry have any leftover inventory, I wonder? |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1930 Registered: May-06 | If someone had their amp and pre-amp in the shop I think it would be the ideal time to freeze the CDP. That is wrap to protect, freeze, slow slow thaw, freeeze, slow slow thaw, then unwrap. No wait, this is the exact wrong time to freeze the CDP. Someone could think the potential improvements in sound quality were just because of the refurbishment of the other gear. Better to wait for a good while after the refurbished gear is in place and the improvements from that work are understood before moving on to the freeze technique. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2493 Registered: Jun-07 | lol Sorry Jan, I was just making sure I wasn't getting my leg pulled. I have never heard of this tweak before. I will try though. Promise. I got lots of Pledge multi-surface Stu. hmmmmm. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2494 Registered: Jun-07 | I have heard about the freezing of CD's Mike. But freezing the whole CDP? Really? But what if I am completely happy with the way my system sounds right now guys, is the tweaking then worth doing? Bryston will be getting the two pieces tomorrow morning. So far their service (Mike Pickett) has been absolutely amazing. Above any service I have ever seen from any other company. Amazing. He said he will email me tomorrow with a final quote on the total re-building of both units with all new parts. I sent him an email and said, even if it doesnt need to be fixed, replace everything. I want them to last another 20 years like they are new. He said, No Problem. Once I get them back, should be a week or so. I will get tweaking. Any other spring cleaning methods? Like what to use when cleaning a 106inch Da-Lite screen?lol. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13582 Registered: May-04 | . "Although we do not specifically encourage people to put their audio equipment through the freezing/slow defrost procedure some of our customers have done this procedure with success. So, we would like to add a few words of caution for anyone wishing to attempt to freeze their equipment. If you DO decide to put any of your audio equipment through this freezing/slow defrost procedure, using your own domestic deep freezer, make sure that the item of equipment is sealed in a plastic bag when placed in the deep freezer. After freezing make sure that the equipment is defrosted very, very slowly by wrapping it in a towel or a blanket for at least a day or two. This will minimise the chance of condensation getting into the equipment. Before connecting the equipment to the AC supply make absolutely sure that the equipment is thoroughly dry - i.e. no moisture or condensation inside or on the equipment. One specific word of warning. Any item of equipment which has such as a Liquid Crystal Display (LCD) may not be suitable for putting in a deep freezer, as LCD's are not good at low temperature." http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize199912.htm http://www.positive-feedback.com/ambackissues/Belt.htm http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/tfs.html http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/message/158 http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/message/159 http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PWB/message/162 http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina34.htm I did freeze my Apollo and it came through without problems. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13583 Registered: May-04 | . You shouldn't use anything on your DaLite screen. Is it dirty? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13584 Registered: May-04 | . The Pledge version was "Anti-Static" which would appear to no longer be available. IMO CD treatments are worth the money. Reviews and comparsions of various treatments exist on line. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2495 Registered: Jun-07 | hmmm freezing stuff seems cool. I saw this guy on you tube that has this unit that he would set his cd in, and then play it. lol Jan no the Da-Lite screen is perfect, but the wife is a clean freak and keeps on wanting to touch it. There isnt a spec of dust on the damn thing. After just finding that video the guy has a "Acoustic Revive demagnetizer" Here is the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtVX0VIkUwo |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2561 Registered: Feb-07 | I can just imagine the look on my wife's face if she opened the freezer one day and saw my CDP in there. She already thinks I'm totally nuts. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1931 Registered: May-06 | Once upon a time I bought a plastic container of chocolate covered cream puffs and put them in the refrigerator. That was when all six kids lived at home. The next day I went to have a cream puff and nothing. No cream puffs, no box, nothing. So I go out and get another box of cream puffs. This time I take the cardboard insert on the plastic lid which shows the picture and brand of the cream puffs and I turn it over. I write "BAIT" on the blank gray cardboard underside and put that back into the plastic lid. It took over a week, but I had all the cream puffs I could ever want. Never bought another box of them either. Just write "BAIT" on the wrapping of the CDP before you put it in the freezer. Now Neil will show this to his wife and she will be convinced that I am nuts. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1933 Registered: May-06 | Going up a couple of posts to what Nick posted; "But what if I am completely happy with the way my system sounds right now guys, is the tweaking then worth doing? " I have been happy with my system for over two years now but I have not stopped messing with it. It continues to evolve and amaze me. and now a word from our sponsor: Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Stout Product of the USA Brewed and Bottled By North Coast Brewing Co., Inc. Fort Bragg, CA 95437 Good stuff! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3286 Registered: May-05 | "The Pledge version was "Anti-Static" which would appear to no longer be available." Pledge "Multi-Surface" and "Anti-Static" are the same thing. Its the one that's labeled safe for electronics and anti-static. Its still on the market, last I knew. New look, same product. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 732 Registered: Dec-07 | Now Neil will show this to his wife and she will be convinced that I am nuts. Mike, I don't think she needs much convincing as far as I am concerned. She'll give you the benefit of the doubt unless she sees your freezer. However, I have noticed since I started relaying your escapades with tweaks that when I use kitchen stuff she really keeps an eye on me. She started noticing stuff missing but fortunately it was the kids who were hoarding it in their rooms--LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2497 Registered: Jun-07 | MW- True man. It is always fun to tinker with stuff. I love tinkering. Stu- I have that exact bottle of pledge Multi Surface. It says on the back fine for electronics and whatever. What are the benefits to spraying down the cd's? I will probably try it on one of my wife's cd's first.lol. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2563 Registered: Feb-07 | haha. Good plan Nick. Mrs. Keller: "why won't my CDs play anymore?" Mr. Keller: "I dunno... mine work just fine". |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3287 Registered: May-05 | Nick - Get at least 2 lint free cloths (you'll need more if you're cleaning a bunch of CDs). I use eyeglasses cleaning cloths. Spray a little Pledge on the read side. Clean the CD with one cloth, then buff off with the second one. Clean from the center out, not radially. Everything improves. Basically, to my ears it sounds like more music is coming through. I'd imagine the laser reads the info better and less error correction is being used. Results will vary. Cleaner CDs won't improve as much as dirtier ones. New CDs should be cleaned too, to remove the mold release compound. There was a very long discussion about it a while back. Can't remember the thread or where it was. One of the tweak therads, I believe. It hasn't ruined any CDs that I know of. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13588 Registered: May-04 | . I suggest microfiber towels, they are used by the auto detailers to really bring out a shine by picking up the extremely small bits of garbage on the surface. You should be able to find them just about anywhere nowdays. Auto supply shops sell them by the bag full, I have some to wipe down my guitars, the $ stores should have some. Choose the one that sticks to your fingers when you run your hand across the surface. And as suggested, rub from the center of the disc outward in a straight line not in circles. Art thought the Pledge treatment was great and even suggested it to a reatiler friend but then he decided he didn't like it and washed it off. If you use a mild detergent, you might find just as much benefit from just gently washing the CD's. The end result of any such CD treatment/cleaner should be a disc that visibly appears glossier and cleaner. No scratches or you'll defeat the purpose. You can send away for the Belt's free CD cream and foils. No one else has reported the same issues Art claimed to have heard. As far as I can tell Pledge will not harm your CD's but be aware it does contain formaldehyde. Use only the tiniest amount and don't allow it to sit or creep under the edges of the disc. You might try buying a decent but cheap reissue for a few bucks as an experiment. Buy two of the same discs, keep one untreated, clean one and listen. If you hear the improvement, freeze that disc while keeping the other untouched. Compare the finished product with the untreated disc. And the demag process for CD's and LP's has won wide spread approval from those who will listen and even wider condemnation from those who haven't even seen the unit but are willing to say they just know the thing can't work. You'll easily be able to find hundreds of pages of insults being thrown across various forums over the demag products. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2498 Registered: Jun-07 | David- I might have to be a little extra harsh on those cd's as they give me a headache anyway.lol. She will never know.Shhhhhhh Got my Micro Fabric cloth. Going to wait to hear back from Bryston on a time line and try to have some cd's cleaned and frozen upon arrival. I have a couple duplicates of some old albums I had thought I lost from childhood (Alice In chains, Pearl Jam, Metallica and so on). Albums that are not overly great for audio testing as they sound half crap at best but at least with two identical albums I will hear some of the sonic differences. I already had some Micro-fabric clothes that I purchased to clean my LCD screens with. I have a few un-used ones. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3290 Registered: May-05 | "Art thought the Pledge treatment was great and even suggested it to a reatiler friend but then he decided he didn't like it and washed it off." I think that was Zaino, not Pledge. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13590 Registered: May-04 | . Don't think so. I never suggested Zaino to Art and I stopped using Zaino when it began to scratch a few CD-r's. I could be wrong but I don't think so. At one point most of the Old Dogs were trying the Pledge treatment and Larry's homemade damper ring. . |
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