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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7643 Registered: Feb-05 | Ya'll have seen the saga of the M12i vs the Rainmakers... Here's the skinny on the financial piece around the deal. I traded some gear to a good used audio dealer for the Epos M12i's at his retail price of $1000. It was a special order as he had none in stock...though he usually stocks them...per him. After I ordered he confirmed with me that because it is a special order I cannot return the items. I bought them having heard and enjoyed the previous 12's but not having heard the M12i's themselves...my bad. After I receivd them as you all know they were too bright and I could not return them per the dealer. He did however take them in on trade for a 2 yr old pair of Totem Rainmakers that he was asking $625 for. Well now my money has really shrunk...but at least I have speakers I can listen to...good. I have been hanging at the Epos & Creek forum seeing what others reactions to the M 12i's are and today much to my surprise (not) came quite an interesting thread. http://www.eposandcreek.com/showthread.php?t=463 The text reads like this..forgive the English as I think he's a native German speaker. "Yesterday I've visited the IFA (Internationale Funk Ausstellung / International Consumer Electronics Show) and there I talked to a guy from the German Epos Distributor Reson. I asked him several questions especially about the M12i (why the bright sound...). He told me, when the received the first (finished M12i's) they talked with Epos that they would'nt sell the M12i in this state because the high frequencies were too superficial. So Reson changed something in the M12i's: they soldered a resistor in the tweeter circuit and changed the interior cables with DNM reson single solid core (for tweeter AND midbass). Epos listened to their modification and they concluded that they will sell this version as their standard version. So just the first series should have the bright sound. I don't know how you should go sure, which series you have, when you see them in a shop but the Reson guy told, that all new M12i are the new series and will be delivered by Epos for all countries where they have a Distributor. The new series isn't reserved just for Germany and Switzerland (Reson Distribution is for Germany and Switzerland). The 2nd series is sold for some weeks now, he told me. I don't know what consumers of the first series can do. They should better contact the Epos service I think or here in the Forum. I hope this thread answers many questions about the M12i. Best regards" This would go along with what I've stated all along which is that the M12i I had was a fundamentally flawed speaker. Given that the dealer usually carries the M12i (minimizing the importance of the "special order") and that the speaker itself may have been flawed I have asked the dealer to compensate me for the difference between his retail on the M12i and the Rainmaker. I told him that a store credit would be fine. Right or wrong? |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1441 Registered: May-06 | Art, I think if he gives you a store credit he would be vary generous. While it sadly did not work out for you, it seems he was clear on the no return policy and you were willing to assume risks. How about an alternative? Find out if Epos will either exchange a first series speaker with the subsequent modified series or at least upgrade the first series with the modification you detailed above at no cost. If they do or will, go back to your dealer and see if you can, based on this new information which he probably is not aware of, take the Totems back in exchange for your Epos if he still has them. Again, this only works for you if Epos will stand behind the upgrade. If he no longer has the speakers, and he accepts that there was a problem with your original purchased speakers perhaps you can get him to provide you another pair of Epos for the Totems. Please bear in mind that he is not obligated to do anything, but if he is worth his salt and sees you as a long time relationship things should get worked out to everyone's satisifaction. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7645 Registered: Feb-05 | I understand your point and appreciate the feedback. Remember that the no return policy was confirmed (or terms given) after the order was made. At which point it would have been impossible to back out without leaving him with the speakers. Also these are speakers and the finish that he normally carries but didn't have in stock...why was a special order necessary...just questions. The dealer also has confirmed that Music Hall is notoriously difficult to deal with and it's understood that he will back up the products and deal with Music Hall himself after he has made it right with the customer. He and I have discussed that at length. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1927 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, I would plea my case direct with Music Hall @ (516) 487-3663 on Tuesday. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7646 Registered: Feb-05 | As stated...Music Hall is notoriously difficult to deal with and so the only reason that I've bought any of their products is because the dealer has agreed to deal directly with Music Hall after making it right with the customer if anything goes wrong...again this is a discussion the owner and I have had. I've had an email discussion with Roy Hall who blamed every component in my system except the M12i's. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1928 Registered: Oct-04 | Then I imagine a man of your talent Art, won't have a problem conveying your experience with Epos, Music Hall, and Roy Hall himself on each & every forum on the web. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1715 Registered: Jun-05 | Bullsh!t Art dont listen to him,Roy Hall is extremely easy to deal with most importantly he is a perfectionist,My M12.2's have the veneer pealing and their 3 years old and he's agreed to either fix them or give me a new set,I just havent found the time to return them yet.Roy Hall was furoius when he found out my M12.2's veneer was pealing,and wanted to take care of it promptly. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1716 Registered: Jun-05 | You wanna talk to Roy Hall by phone Art,he gets right to the point,he's actually somewhat brash,but nice at the same time,he's very confident in his products. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7648 Registered: Feb-05 | I know 3 dealers TW who carry some MH products and all 3 of them say that Music Hall is very difficult to deal with. 2 of them have limited what they carry due to it and the other has made it a policy to do the above, which is deal directly with Music Hall so that the customer doesn't have to. I have exchanged emails with Roy on a number of occasions and find him abrupt and uninformative. Perhaps you can shed some light on the inner psyche of Mr Hall. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1717 Registered: Jun-05 | I ment dont listen to your dealer Art,he just wants to keep your money. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7649 Registered: Feb-05 | This dealer is very good TW. He's a true gentleman in my opinion and I only expect the best from him. He has an outstanding reputation for service and so I won't be expecting that my request will be met however at least he won't laugh out loud....lol! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1929 Registered: Oct-04 | Come to think of it, I had a conversation with him a few years back, and he was rather accommodating, speaking to me at length. I really don't know what to make of the whole situation? What would you like see happen Art? |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1718 Registered: Jun-05 | Roys,very conceited so to speak about his products,he expects the very best from them,and he really thinks nothing in their pricerage is better,he's kind of a d!ckhead but you can manage and get around him he doesent want any of his customers not to remain a Creek,Epos,Gado,MH customer. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7651 Registered: Feb-05 | Precisely what I outlined above. I now have the Totem's which I like. However my trade in value was for over $1200 (I traded in my P5/TTPSU/Dyn 10x5 wich he agreed was worth $1200 to him) in value from the dealer. With M12i's which he retails for $1000 and the Atacama Stands which are just under $200 we had a deal. As it turned out I didn't like the Epos but neither of us could have known that it was likely that I was dealing with a pair that many people worlwide are finding to be a problem. I wound up with 2 yr old Totems that I had to take apart and remove debris from for my troubles. I'm thinking that he would not want me to return the speakers that I'm happy with for another go at the M12i's but would see that since I was given a flawed product to begin with that I at least deserve the value of the original transaction. It wasn't my fault that the product has problems that neither of us knew about at the time. I have spoken to a number of people who are returning these speakers and looking for the older version. I just want a store credit for the difference between his retail for the M12i and the Totems. I really think it's fair if you look at the situation in totality. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1719 Registered: Jun-05 | Why not take the Rainmakers back and have your dealer get you the unbright M12i's he can do that cant he? if he cant he's not a very good dealer or friend. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7653 Registered: Feb-05 | See above. At this point I'd be afraid to lose the Rainmaker and have an unsatisfactory speaker in it's place. I've seen here that you aren't to fond of the M12i either TW, can you say more about that. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1930 Registered: Oct-04 | I really hope either the dealer, or Roy Hall himself, come through for you. I really think it's unfair to expect the customer to take such a substantial hit given this situation. I know you'll keep us all up to date as this unfolds. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7654 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Christopher. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1442 Registered: May-06 | Art???? How often have we preached to listen before you buy? Why couldn't you just wait until he had them in then demo'd them or at least asked the above question that you just did of Tawaun? If he is that good of a dealer and he knew you did not hear the speakers why would he paint you into the corner like that? He doesn't sound all that hot to me. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7655 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep I admitted that I made a mistake Mike...no doubt about it. And if we were talking about just preference I wouldn't be here with this thread..nor would I have emailed the dealer. I suspected there was something wrong with the design and as it turns out there was (either the design or the implementation during manufacturing)...that changes the situation for me Mike. I predicted that I would like the speaker and I probably would have had it been right. Neither the dealer or I had any idea at the time we made the deal that somthing was wrong. I have plenty of experience listening to Epos and one of my best friends has a pair so I thought it would be alright...as I stated above both here and earlier on this thread, that was not a good idea. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1723 Registered: Jun-05 | Art,I thought the new 1's were bright just like you thought,they did however have better bass than the M12.2's,everything else was virtually the same.If your dealer is cool I would suck it up with few more coin and get M16i since he valued all your stuff at $1200,the M16 are fabulous and I know their not bright,1 of the best floorstanders under $2k. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7657 Registered: Feb-05 | No more dough to hand over...although I do have some trade in...including some stands...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7658 Registered: Feb-05 | Also don't want to upgrade the amp at this time. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1724 Registered: Jun-05 | Art trade the stands and get the M16i,you know I wont steer you wrong,even the measurements were impressive in Stereophile,they would even make John proud. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1725 Registered: Jun-05 | What other speakers does the dealer carry Art? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7659 Registered: Feb-05 | That's the only new brand he carries as he is a used audio dealer. Edit: He also carries Tannoy...I forgot. Seems that he is phasing those out. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1726 Registered: Jun-05 | Why not check out the Tannoys?as a matter of fact im gonna check out their site now.I think with the gear you have the Tannoys would be a better match. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1727 Registered: Jun-05 | Which Tannoys does he have? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7660 Registered: Feb-05 | The only ones he appears to have left are the Sensys DC1's. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7662 Registered: Feb-05 | Remember, I was originally mate my Epos speakers with a Creek amp...you'd think that would work wouldn't ya...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1728 Registered: Jun-05 | I just came from their site the Sensys line have been replaced with the Revolution line,they look the buisness to.Get into that new Revolution line or get the M16i.Just curious have you listened to the Sensys DC1's? and if so what did you think about them? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7663 Registered: Feb-05 | Gave them a brief passing listen at the store not enough to make any real judgements. They seemed relatively well built. He'd have to special order the M16i as well and lord knows we don't want him going there again. He keeps primarily used speakers in stock. Also keeps the ELS 3 and usually a 12 series Epos in stock. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1729 Registered: Jun-05 | does he he have a website? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7664 Registered: Feb-05 | He does but I'm not going to put it out here... Some folks here know him and I don't want to bring it to a personal level. I'll PM it to ya. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7690 Registered: Feb-05 | My Epos dealer has decided to pursue the mods mentioned on the Epos and Creek forum for the M12i and let me reaudition them...we'll see. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1444 Registered: May-06 | That is sorta along the lines of what I was thinking but better Art: "If they do or will, go back to your dealer and see if you can, based on this new information which he probably is not aware of, take the Totems back in exchange for your Epos if he still has them. Again, this only works for you if Epos will stand behind the upgrade. If he no longer has the speakers, and he accepts that there was a problem with your original purchased speakers perhaps you can get him to provide you another pair of Epos for the Totems." You're on your way buddy! Good start and good luck! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7694 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm not looking be rid of the Totems and so I'm still seeking another agreement and he and I are close to terms...I'll let you know when we reach agreement. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1734 Registered: Jun-05 | So you will end up with the Rainmakers and the new unbright 12i's? if thats the case your forming quite a stable along with the Rega R5's and the old vintage B&W and of course your wifes old Pinnacle ac-650's 1 of the best speakers ever at their retail price,I always wanted a pair.My dad had a pair Classic Gold Towers while not as musical as the ac series they had punishing house restructuring 25htz bass,but they were very bright.His friend a guy a who still has the most LP's and CD's I've ever seen and the old big bad Sansui receiver and he had a pair of ac-850's I used to love to listen to his system,he later sold them for the Polk RT10,wish I would'e been around when he sold them,you could listen to that setup for hours. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3197 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm, I'm hearing a lot of mutterings from a couple of respected sources about the new i-series speakers. Apparently, they just don't connect. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7696 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually TW and Frank...I'm looking to avoid the new Mi series altogether...however I'm looking to strike a deal for either the old M5's or a pair of ELS3's for the office. Tawaun I'm glad you recognize how good those Pinnacles are. I was blown aways last after I scored them at a yard sale for $10...they will play about as loud as you can stand...nice and clean and with bass that embarasses anything in it's class. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7697 Registered: Feb-05 | Deal just struck for a pair of new ELS3's. I listened to Tawaun on this...sometimes less is more. I'll pick them up tommorrow. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1932 Registered: Oct-04 | Nice, I hope you like them. |