|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 53 Registered: Dec-06 | Hi all, Hoping I could get some insights into towers vs. bookshelf speakers in a stereo system. I'll be heading out in the coming weeks to listen to some systems with the goal of upgrading my stereo. Currently I've got a Denon minisystem (tuner, amp, CD player in one) with Energy C-1 speakers and also Tannoy Mercury F2 speakers, and a Mission sub. The Tannoys were purchased in the fall of last year, and the dealer has an upgrade option where I can purchase a new set of speakers that are at least 25% more expensive, and if I bring in the F2s I will get a full credit on the price of those. It's an attractive option obviously. Tannoy has come out with a new speaker line this year, the Revolution Signature. It seems like a logical choice given the upgrade credit I'd receive. http://whathifi.com/hi-fi/archive/2008/01/31/news-tannoy-puts-its-signature-to-t he-revolution.aspx This dealer also carries B&W, so the 68x line is another option. Initially I was leaning towards the Tannoy Revolution Signature DC6 bookshelf (subject to hearing it first of course), but I've just begun thinking about whether towers would be a better option. The DC6T towers would go down to 32Hz, enabling me to ditch the sub. I'm thinking, from the perspective of obtaining the most cohesive sound, maybe towers alone are better, rather than have an extra unit in the mix (the sub), which introduces integration difficulties. Not only that, but the Tannoys, with their dual concentric drive unit, probably take that idea even one step further. Does anyone have any insights into this? Is 2.0 better than 2.1? Also, I'm not married to the Tannoys. Something tells me they will cost too much anyhow. I don't want to pay more than $2K for the speakers. Even that might be too much. If I go another route I can easily sell the stuff I currently own. I'll be matching the speakers to an integrated amp, CD player, tuner, (budget for these three components is about ($1,500) and eventually a record player. I think I'm looking at NAD, Cambridge, or Rotel level stuff here to stay within budget. I won't be demoing quite yet, I'm just starting to plan out what models I want to hear, where I'll have to drive to hear them, all that fun stuff. This isn't something I want to rush into. Insights are appreciated! |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2691 Registered: May-05 | If you're eventually going to upgrade the entire system, you may want to rethink your approach to the upgrades. My advice is to go out and audition complete systems. Let your dealers know your long term plans, and your budget. Allow them to show you complete systems in your price range. Hear as many systems by as many dealers as you resaonably can. You may also want to hear some stuff above and below your total budget, so you really have a sense of what to expect for your money. Auditioning speakers now isn't going to make much, if any sense down the road. When you go to demo the speakers, they'll have them on a different setup than what you currently have, and will therefore sound different. When you get a new amp, it'll be different than what you currently have, and possibly different than what you auditioned the speakers with. Same goes for the source. You'll most likely end up with a system comprised of random parts, rather than components that synergize very well. There's a huge difference between the two. I'm not trying to imply soley auditioning one-brand systems, but rather complete systems. That doesn't mean they can't be one brand though. Also, your budget seems to speaker heavy IMO. Spending $2k on a pair of speakers and $1500 combined for source and amp most likely won't get the best balanced system, nor the most out of the speakers. For a phenominal approx $3500 system, check out the Rega Mira3, Apollo, and R3 or R5. I'm assuming you can't afford the entire system in one shot. After you've chosen a complete system, in your case I'd upgrade the source, then amp, then speakers. My logic is that you can connect the CD player to your Denon system. Then you can connect the amp to the current speakers. After wards, add the new speakers. Keep in mind that if you start with new speakers, the Denon system may not drive them sufficiently. Its far easier to ruin a speaker by underdriving it that it is to ruin it by overpowering it. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2692 Registered: May-05 | One other thing... Reviews are a decent starting point, but not much else. They'll give you a general idea. I've read some reviews that I totally agreed with, and others that were way off. And they were written by the same reviewer. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1265 Registered: May-06 | The only thing I would add to Stu's posts is all things being equal I would prefer 2.0 to 2.1 for just the reason you stated. However, room acoustics and size, stands or no stands, speaker placement, all factor into "all things being equal" because most likely they are not. What I mean is there may be mitigating factors which make having bookshelves a necessity. Then again you could find bookshelves which may not require a sub. Stay open minded to your possibilities. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 54 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks for the replies. Stu, sounds like good advice to listen to complete systems. I definitely want to keep in mind all components that are used for each demo. Maybe even have the dealer swap out one amp for another or something like that, to hear what difference that makes. Or I could even bring along the Denon perhaps, then compare that to the amps the store uses. The Energy speakers the Denon now powers are rated at 8 ohm impedance, with a sensitivity of 89dB. There seems to be adequate power, getting loud is easily done. The Tannoys I'm considering are 8 ohm, 88dB, same as the F2s that I now own. So I'd hope the new Tannoys won't cause a problem. Other speakers I'm looking forward to hearing are the NHT Model 3, and the Paradigm Reference Signature S1. I looked into Dynaudio because of all the great things I read about them but I know for sure my amp would struggle with their speakers. Maybe even the type of amp I will eventually get (an $800 integrated) would struggle. So unfortunately, Dynaudio is out. I'm sort of leaning to bookshelves again. First, it's a lot of money and saving some on the speakers helps. Not only that, but my sub right now seems to be quite well integrated. I can get by with the Mission sub for now and then upgrade that later on down the line, then use the Mission in a future HT (same with the Energies as rears ~ hey, I'm rationalizing the upgrade!). I do think I will go in stages, speakers first, then maybe source, then amp, then sub. The reason I'd go speakers first is because I have to buy them this year to get my money back on the F2s (that's if I buy Tannoy or B&W). If I decide not to buy either of these brands then I'd be buying from another dealer and could possibly go for source and amp first. I did a cable upgrade of sorts just yesterday. I went from the free Monster speaker cables the store gave me when I bought the Denon/Energy combo to some Chord Rumor 2 cables that I purchased recently. I wasn't expecting anything really, it was just out of curiosity that I did this. Never really bought into the cable hype. But I swear that the bass and mids had more impact, the highs were smoother (the Denon/Energy combo is quite bright) and the system resolved better. I'm convinced I'm not imagining this as the difference was quite apparent. I mean, it sounded good with the Monsters, it just sounds better with the Chords. The construction is like night and day too...the Monsters felt flimsy and the copper strands were not nearly as tightly woven as the Chords. Maybe build quality impacts the sound. For $50, I'm quite happy with the upgrade, and it's made me less gung ho about going out there and upgrading my entire system all at once. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2694 Registered: May-05 | I highly doubt that the Denon minisystem will adequitely power any of the speakers you're looking into. They may be 8 ohm rated, but they certainly don't stay at 8 ohms. A speaker's impedence is not a fixed value, it'll vary with frequencies. The Paradigm Signatures will most likely dip below 4 or maybe even 3 ohms. The NHT model 3's are a very difficult speaker to drive, in the sense that they require a ton of current to open them up. Not sure about their impedence though. Honestly, the Dynaudios may in fact be the easiest of the bunch to drive. Most Dyns have a very safe impedence curve. Even though they're not all that effecient, they're far easier to drive than what a spec sheet will lead you believe. I really think you should get new speakers after a suitable amp, but that's your call. While it sounds very good for what it is, the Denon minisystem isn't made for speakers like this. It'll have some serious problems when speaker impedences dip below 4 ohms or so. IMO. it'll clip far too easily and potentially ruin the speakers. What do your dealers have to say about running these speakers with your present gear? But, its your money and system, not mine. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 55 Registered: Dec-06 | I've been running my speakers with the Denon now for over three years, and the dealer certainly didn't have any problems with the match. As I said, they seem to run fine. I guess one thing I should mention (not sure if it's relevant) is that the volume knob goes up to 33. I usually set my volume no lower than 22 for listening. Not sure if this is high or not relatively speaking compared to other set ups. I am at 66% of the way to full volume setting on my amp. For quiet discs (the quietest disc I've ever heard is Bryan Adams' Cuts Like a Knife) I need to crank it up to 25 or 26 to get adequate volume. I usually play music on the louder side, but not crazy loud. Not to the point where my ears hurt if I listen for a long time. I can't find graphs on the C-1, but the next model up is linked below: http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/energy_connoisseur_c3/ Would you say, based on that graph, that the impedance seems to stay above 4 all the time, and only slightly falls below 5 once? That's what I'm seeing but I'm not positive I'm reading the graph right. I guess I can see your point if I try to use a speaker that falls to 4 or even 3, maybe I'd run into some issues. A pdf sheet on the Denon is here: http://www.denon.ca/hapdfs/udm50.pdf It's the UD-M50 model. Not sure how much insight this provides. Buying an amp first kind of puts a crimp in my plans, but I don't want to wreck a pair of speakers either, much less a pair that costs over $1,000. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2696 Registered: May-05 | "Would you say, based on that graph, that the impedance seems to stay above 4 all the time, and only slightly falls below 5 once?" It looks that way to me too. I'm not trying to bash the Denon minisystem in any way. I've heard it a few times (with the Mission speakers), and it sounds fantastic for a minisystem. I'm sure your dealer has far more experience with it than I do, and he'd better understand what speakers can work well with it. I'm assuming your dealer that's suggesting the speakers is the one who sold you the Denon. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 56 Registered: Dec-06 | To clarify... The dealer I bought the Denon from is the one who sold me the Energy C-1 to go with it. The other speaker they were suggesting and actually first recommended was the Mission, but I found the sound a bit to muffled, so I asked what else I could match the amp to - they suggested either another Mission or the Energy. I haven't seen a dealer yet about any of these speakers that I'm now looking into, so no one has suggested the Denon will be able to power them. It's simply something I took for granted, but I think I'll have to think about it a bit more as you suggest. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 58 Registered: Dec-06 | I've got my list of speakers narrowed down to the following models: 1. Paradigm Reference Signature S1 v.2 2. Tannoy Revolution DC6 3. B&W 685 4. NHT Classic Model Three 5. Dynaudio Excite x16 6. Triangle Esprit Comete Ex 7. PMC TB2i 8. Rega R1 I'll also listen to something from Totem. I'm pumped about the new Dynaudio line - I've just heard so many great things about their speakers, and the Excite line is designed to be easy to drive. Seems like a logical option. I will try to listen for the effect amps and CD players have on what I hear. I plan to listen to models from Marantz, NAD, Cambridge Audio, Rotel, Naim, Bryston, and Rega. Four retailers in my immediate (and not so immediate) area will cover off all the brands I've listed. Once I decide on a speaker I think that will dictate whether I'll need a new amp first, or whether I can buy the speaker first and use the Denon for the next six months to one year. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1505 Registered: Jun-07 | If you buy the speakers first I feel that will limit you on which amplification and cd player you can buy. Make sure you listen to all of the amps and cd players you listed. When you decide which amp and cd player you want to go with that will limit that Speaker list pretty fast. Bryston-PMC, Paradigm,Totem Rotel-B&W Rega-Rega R1 You know what I am saying.Cheers. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2707 Registered: May-05 | If you have an Audio Physic dealer near you, you should check them out as well. They're excellent speakers. The company's only downfall is their US distributer who doesn't promote them sufficiently. Dealers are almost as hard to find as reviews of them. The Audio Physic Yara II Compact is a phenominal speaker for $1245 retail. I've heard the majority of the speakers you're looking into, and I felt the Yara was the best speaker for the money by far. So much so that I just sealed a deal on a used pair and stands. I'll elaborate on them when they arrive. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6850 Registered: Feb-05 | Good job Stu...those are excellent speakers! |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1506 Registered: Jun-07 | Sweet stuff Stu. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10203 Registered: Dec-04 | How long to wait Stu? |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2711 Registered: May-05 | They're supposed to ship today. They should get here Tuesday or so. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10204 Registered: Dec-04 | The PMC's didn't make it, I presume. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 59 Registered: Dec-06 | Wow, those Audio Physic speakers sure look nice! I will contact the distributor to see if there are any dealers in my area. Thanks for the suggestion, Stu. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 61 Registered: Dec-06 | Turns out one of the dealers on my list actually carries Audio Physic speakers. So hopefully I'll have no problem hearing them. Anyone have any insights into whether Quad is a viable option? I know that their electrostatic speakers aren't an option for rock music, but how about their L-Series, specifically the 12L? |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10228 Registered: Dec-04 | The 12L is a speaker that I enjoyed with Cary tube amps. They really need just the right($?) stands and placement. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 65 Registered: Dec-06 | I'll be auditioning next week. One thing I've discovered is that I prefer not using a subwoofer. My current system just sounds better when I turn the sub off - tighter and less boomy. There is enough bass produced by the C-1. I've tried different placement and settings options with the sub, including moving it away from walls. This really surprised me as the reason I initially added a sub was because I felt the speakers struggled with bass. Maybe that was a placement issue at the time, or maybe they needed breaking in. I don't know. I do know I like them without a sub now. So to make up for a sub I figure getting a speaker with good bass frequency extension would be beneficial. The Dynaudio and PMC speakers go down further than the others (yes, I'm relying on the specs from the manufacturers and measurements will differ at home, but these specs are all I have to go by). The speakers that are easiest to drive are the Triangle and PMC - another thing I'm considering as I may drive the speakers with the Denon for a while. To save some money I'll strongly consider a Marantz PM7001 amp. The only speakers I've really been able to compare closely are the two I own. Overall I prefer the Energy C-1 to the Tannoy F2. It's got me thinking that I probably prefer a metal tweeter to a soft dome, and I'm also wondering if a 5.5 inch woofer is quicker than a 6.5 inch and therefore better sounding. The Tannoy (6.5) is pretty good but sounds a bit sluggish next to the Energy (5.5). There could be many reasons I suppose, not necessarily the woofer size - for example, the Energy sounds deader when I knock on the top of the speaker. The Tannoy also emphasizes high frequencies a bit too much for my tastes...depsite the soft dome tweeter, the treble sounds too prominent compared to the rest of the spectrum. Other than that I do enjoy the speaker. The detail and smoothness are nice, but the Energys are pretty good in that respect too. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2838 Registered: May-05 | In regards to driver size and materials, don't hang on too tightly to preconceptions. Many silk tweeters are smoother than metal ones. but not always. Same for woofer size and material. Its all how the designer implemented the materials he/she used. If there's not the right cabinet volume, cabinet material, crossover points, etc, it doesn't matter what was used. After all that, the perfect speaker placed wrong or in a bad room won't live up to its potential. There's far more to getting a speaker that sounds right and works right in your room than driver material and size. Relative to their flagship models, less expensive speakers have to cut corners somewhere. The only way to figure out which cut corners are acceptable and which aren't is to hear the speakers. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 347 Registered: Nov-06 | Hey. Comment- At some point, you might want to consider that the sub you are using is a weak spot and not that any subwoofer in general wouldn't do well in a music listening system. Its actually tough to find truely decent floorstanders these days with good bass reproduction at lower frequencies. Its a lot to ask for and design well in one box. (doable though) You are dancing around a lack of adequate amplification with the Denon mini-system. The Energy C-1s are OK as far as speakers in my book. I am not a Tannoy fan in general. Personal opinion only. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 66 Registered: Dec-06 | Okay, I've decided to upgrade the source first, then the amp, then the speakers. I actually bought a new source just yesterday. Went auditioning this past week. Didn't hear too much yet. Tried to hear a system powering the NHTs but they were not in stock. The new Tannoy and the new Dynaudio is not available yet. The Paradigm store I went to did not have the speaker I was looking for and was actually recommending the Totem Rainmaker as the best option for me. I wasn't able to listen to it but it's on my list. What I did hear: 1. PMC DB1i powered by a Cambridge Azur 540A and a Marantz CD player (DV7600 I believe). I had my Energy C-1 with me and swapped them out with the PMC. Okay, it's a $300 speaker vs. a $2,000 one, but as expected the PMCs sounded amazing. Loved it. Great weight and presence vs. the C-1 which sounded a bit thin by comparison. 2. Neat Petite III speakers powered by the lowest level Naim integrated and Naim CD player. Needless to say this was amazing. I'd make the same observation - the music just had a lot of weight to it. I'm assuming that when you start entering this level of audio you get a certain level of performance no matter what you buy. However, I am afraid Naim is a bit too much over my budget. The dealer was actually discounting the Neat speakers (close to half price). I was very tempted to buy them but I want to hear the other speakers on my list first, and I had decided source - amp - speakers would be the upgrade path for me. So the CD player I bought is actually an Arcam DV135. The reason I opted for a DVD player is because I have DVD-A and SACD discs that I want to play. One day I may move up to a stand alone CD player, but for now I want the ability to play these discs that I've been collecting but have never had the chance to listen to. I was planning to either buy a Marantz or Denon player, but upon visiting one store (Bay Bloor Radio) they have a big sale now and the Arcam is discounted from $1,499 to $699. I couldn't say no to what is likely a better audio source vs. the Denon or Marantz that I was considering (though the Denon universal players seem to get phenomenal reviews). So the Arcam will play my DVD-As and SACDs and hopefully it'll also be an upgrade over my Denon for redbook CDs. I plan to add an amp next and then speakers. I'll be honest, the PMC/Cambridge/Marantz set up sounded so good. From what I've read, Arcam and Marantz are both laid back. So if I enjoyed that system with a Marantz it'll probably work just aw well with my Arcam. So, I am leaning to an Arcam/Cambridge Audio/PMC system. However I want to keep my mind open, so when I'm ready to buy my amp I'll head out with the Arcam and test it in various systems with the speakers on my list. I plan to move my Denon mini system, Mission sub, and the Energy C-1 speakers to HT use. It won't be a typical HT setup obviously (2.1 HT powered by a mini system) but I think it'll sound pretty solid and I won't need to buy any new components. It'll be mainly HT use only (not much audio), and I don't think I want to bother with 5 speakers in the near future. I just want quality sound for TV and movies more than anything else. |